What are the REAL differences between X sperm and Y sperm??

[atomic sagebrush]

Updated 1-3-17

Conventional wisdom claims that X sperm and Y sperm are very different critters. Sure, they split from the same cells and matured in the exact same environment for 90 days prior to ejaculation, but somehow according to some of these theories, the second they leave a man's body, they begin to behave in dramatically different ways. Let's take these one at a time and see what the science has to say.

1) X and Y sperm are different sizes and shapes.

MOSTLY FALSE - It is true that X sperm are ever-so slightly bigger than Y sperm, because they carry 2.8% more genetic material (that tiny little arm of the X chromosome that is not present on the Y) and as a result their heads may be as much as 1% wider across or no different at all depending on the individual sperm. (sperm come in a variety of sizes). To put in perspective of how very small a difference that is, each sperm has 22 full sized chromosomes and then the 23rd which is either an X or a Y - the size difference is just that one tiny arm of the X. Everything else is the same between the X and Y sperm. (there's a good picture here Karyotype - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karyotype) - half of those chromosomes pictured are in X sperm along with the slightly bigger X chromosome, and the other half are present in Y sperm along with the slightly smaller Y chromosome). Not much of a difference.

Researchers have investigated this idea extensively in a series of studies and most have found no difference between the size and shape of X and Y sperm - not head length, not width, not area, tail length, or in any size or shape. And they checked this in both men with normal sperm and unhealthy sperm and found the exact same thing - NO discernible difference in size or shape (aside from the very small 2.8% difference in genetic material, of course)

Dimensional assessment of X-bearing and Y-bearing haploid and disomic human sperm with the use of fluorescence in situ hybridization and objective ... - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16412741)
Wiley Online Library: Not Found (http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/reprint/22/1/119.pdf)
404 Not Found (http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bit******/10113/34209/1/IND21967926.pdf)
Quantification and classification of human sperm morphology by computer-assisted image analysis. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3384107)

Here is one study that did seem to prove there were some subtle differences and that X sperm do seem to have a 1% larger head radius than Y do, but on balance, most researchers have not been able to find major differences between X and Y sperm.

http://molehr.oxfordjournals.org/content/3/1/61.full.pdf

UPDATE!! A new study using highly advanced technology was able to differentiate between X and Y sperm using several variables having to do with size and shape. But please understand that these differences are SO microscopic that it still debunks the idea that X are big and slow, Y are small and fast. The researchers could not tell X and Y apart using size, shape, etc - it was only by combining ALL those things together and using the most cutting edge technology, that they were able to differentiate between X and Y. What this study is really saying is that X and Y are so similar in every regard that they are virtually indistinguishable and I believe this puts the "X big, Y small" to bed for once and for all. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0059387

Where did this idea come from? Our old friend Dr. Landrum Shettles, who over 40 years ago looked at sperm through a microscope and noticed that there were some with fat heads and some with pointy heads and after trying to count chromosomes in them and giving up, jumped to a rather large, if understandable conclusion, that the fat heads were X and the pointy heads Y. More about Dr. Shettles' Big Mistake here: http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/7691-trouble-timing.html

However, a good deal of much more advanced technology has been invented since then and researchers have since found that what Shettles believed were X and Y sperm, were in fact uncapacitated and capacitated sperm - sperm have to lose their round ends in order to fertilize an egg and undergo a process called "capacitation" after ejaculation.

http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/14/4/880.full.pdf

There is NO way that anyone can look through a microscope and tell which sperm are X and which are Y. In fact, research on sperm is made very complicated by the fact that in order to observe sperm by basis of genetics, you have to alter them by using fluorescent dyes that may alter their actual characteristics. Keep that in the back of your mind whenever you read anything about sperm and how they behave, because a lot of researchers have been studying sperm that wasn't counted in advance of studying them (so who even knows what the percentages of X and Y sperm were there to begin with), weren't counted accurately after experimenting on them, and/or may have been altered in some way by the process of observing them.

2)X and Y sperm swim at different speeds

FALSE. Once Shettles decided that big and round = X and small and pointy = Y, he was off to the races. He decided that ~if~ X and Y were drastically different in size, that meant that X sperm were slow and Y sperm were fast and that is why he came up with his timing method. That's right, the ONLY reason anyone ever thought that timing intercourse mattered in gender ratio at all was because of one man's mistake. http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/7691-trouble-timing.html

Now let's say for the sake of argument that Shettles could be ever so slightly right, Y are just a wee bit smaller. But as anyone who has ever watched the Olympics knows, athletes come in many sizes and shapes and just because an athlete is 1% larger than another athlete, does not mean that he/she will be 1% slower. Size can bring with it advantages as well as disadvantages.

Also, research indicates that while sperm do swim, the cervical mucus has currents in it that actually help move the sperm around to where it needs to go and that these currents may actually do more to bring the sperm to the egg than the motion of the sperm itself rendering any theoretical difference in speed largely meaningless anyway. In fact, some of the fastest-swimming sperm are dead on arrival (their purpose is not known, but it's probably not to fertilize eggs) and incapable of fertilizing an egg!! Given that 140-160 males are conceived for every 100 females, if Y sperm really were significantly faster than X, this is not what you would expect to see if Y sperm were really superfast and superfast sperm are incapable of fertilizing an egg.

3) X sperm are strong and live a long time and Y sperm are weak and susceptible to damage

FALSE. Again, Shettles, believing that the uncapacitated sperm were X sperm, assumed that since these "X" sperm were bigger, they were also stronger and hardier than Y sperm. Since this was all based on his misinterpretation of what he viewed, this idea is also completely false. Both timing and pH theory rely heavily on this completely disproven idea. http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/11684-ph-pickle.html

In fact, research suggests that Y sperm may actually survive longer than X sperm in vitro. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1439-0272.2001.00427.x/full

That having been said, X and Y sperm ~may~ capacitate at different rates and theoretically this could have something to do with gender ratio. It doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility that timing intercourse or pH could play some part in this process. http://www.medical-hypotheses.com/article/S0306-9877(00)91251-9/abstract http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=183247

4) X and Y sperm swim differently

TRUE, kinda. When observed in vitro, X and Y sperm do seem to swim differently, even though they swim at the same speed. (IN COWS.) But it is not known how that translates to in vivo (in your body) conditions. Also, the numbers of sperm onhand seemed to affect how the sperm swam.

pH is often suggested as having something to do with this process but in the study below, pH is not mentioned and has NEVER been proven one iota to alter the way sperm swim, to "freeze their tails" or any such thing. http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/11684-ph-pickle.html and http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/63173-ion-insanity.html

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/(SICI)1098-2795(199807)50:3%3C323::AID-MRD8%3E3.0.CO;2-L/abstract

MOST of the action that moves sperm to the egg has nothing to do with the sperm itself. Muscle contractions, cilia lining your Fallopian tubes, and the movement of cervical mucus throughout your reproductive tract are all much more efficient ways of moving sperm than how the sperm swim anyway.

(Continued below - there is a whole very important second part to this essay that is down a couple of posts beneath this one.)

[atomic sagebrush]

PART TWO -

5) X and Y sperm "like" different pH levels

UNKNOWN BUT DOUBTFUL. This is another idea straight from Dr. Shettles. He surmised that if X were bigger and Y were smaller, then X would therefore be stronger and Y would be weaker. Thus, an acidic environment would kill off mostly the Y sperm and the X would stay behind to fertilize the egg. He suggested douching with vinegar to aid in conceiving a girl and baking soda for a boy. Many, many people have expanded upon this idea over the last 40 years and have run with it and you can buy various preparations that are supposed to help you conceive your desired gender. In fact, patents exist for some of these products and are often presented as "scientific evidence" that pH affects X and Y sperm differently. A PATENT IS NOT SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE. In fact, a patent can prevent other independent researchers from testing the product/method to see if it even works.

Most of the at-home high tech methods you read about online such as "modified swim up", "swim up" and "the turkey baster method TBM" are variations on this theme as well. These are based primarily around the research of Dr. Ronald Ericsson. Ericsson method - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ericsson_method) Ericsson Albumin Method: Sperm Spinning for Gender Selection : Ingender.com (http://www.in-gender.com/Gender-Selection/Ericsson/Ericsson.aspx)

Dr. Ericsson's spinning technique is based partially around pH, partially around the idea that X and Y sperm swim at different speeds, along with spinning sperm (using the supposed larger weight of X sperm to separate them out). The Ericsson method uses different solutions to encourage sperm of different genders to swim to separate levels in a test tube and from there they can supposedly be weeded out and used to impregnate people. Sounds great, but the problem is, there are TONS of studies that refute Ericsson - Ericsson himself is pretty much the only person who's ever gotten his method to work reliably (aside from the many licensed clinics bearing his name, of course) and if highly trained researchers in multimillion dolllar labs can't do it, it seems very unlikely that people at home armed with toy centrifuges can (as is claimed by some other gender swaying sites).

Further casting doubt on Ericsson's claims, after all this spinning and separating sperm, the ratio of sperm left behind is STILL 50-50. Ericsson admits this as fact, but claims that despite this seeming contradiction, the sperm in question goes onto conceive children in the proper gender ratios 70-80% of the time. (if the good doctor would care to explain how, if his sperm spinning is really centrifuging out "larger" X sperm and leaving behind "smaller" Y sperm, the end product is STILL 50-50 X and Y, in both samples, I'm all ears.) IF this is true, that still doesn't prove that pH has anything to do with it.

Anyway, returning to the matter at hand, pH - if Dr. Shettles was wrong to begin with, then WHY would pH really matter that much? (not saying it doesn't, just pointing out that the entire idea of pH is based on a flawed premise and incorrect information). ~If~ X sperm and Y sperm are pretty much the same size and swim pretty much the same speed and live pretty much the same time and are pretty much equally hearty, HOW does pH matter? It can't matter, the entire theory makes no sense.

Corollary to this question is an observation that I have made - in the vast majority of people without serious medical issues, semen and EWCM (at ovulation) are both slightly alkaline (in the 7's) and sperm goes from semen to EWCM and then swims through it to fertilize the egg. Yet most couples manage to conceive children of both genders without requiring baking soda or Crystal Light. WHY would God/Mother Nature require pH any different than what is normally there, in order to conceive a baby of a certain gender? WHY would low pH = girls and high pH = boys if medium pH is best for ALL sperm to survive in? It doesn't add up to me and I have an in depth investigation of the implausibility of pH here: The pH Pickle (http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/11684-ph-pickle.html)

6) X and Y sperm have different electrical charges.

FALSE. Originally, in the late 80's/early 90's, some researchers believed they had discovered a difference in electrical charge between X and Y sperm. Some even went so far as to suggest that the egg alters its charge to attract different gender sperm depending on several different variables. However, these studies were later invalidated, firstly because the method the researchers had used to differentiate between X and Y sperm was fount to be inaccurate (VanKooij and VanOost 1992 I cannot find this actual study online but it is widely cited). Surface heterogeneity of bovine sperm revealed by aqueous two-phase partition | SpringerLink (http://www.springerlink.com/content/w148x71v8762r2wn/) (I don't even understand this study but it is widely cited as debunking the electrical charge idea) http://www.ucm.es/info/genetvet/prediction_Y_Chromosome_content_DNA_pools.pdf and http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/38/3/603.pdf also debunk the idea that electrical charge is different between X and Y sperm.

Setting all that aside, the existence of Microsort itself is evidence against the "electrical charge" idea. The way Microsort works is, sperm are colored with a fluorescent dye and forced through a flow cytometer one at a time. They are encased with a tiny drop of liquid that has an electric charge and then separated out using an electrostatic deflection. IF different-gendered sperm had these charges to begin with, why would Microsorters simply not separate them with electrostatic deflection? Answer - because they can't, because it doesn't work. They have the technology to separate sperm by charges and yet they have to add charges in order to separate sperm. It makes NO SENSE to do this if sperm had charges!

Some companies are more than happy to take your money to supposedly determine what "electric charge" your egg has but the reason why none in the United States do it is because IT DOESN'T WORK and the FDA does not license products that don't work. http://www.choicebabyconcept.com/choicemethod/lab.html I have a full debunking of this concept in this essay http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/63173-ion-insanity.html

7) X and Y sperm "like" different amounts of electrolytes (calcium and magnesium for girls, sodium and potassium for boys)in cervical mucus because of their electrical charges, and these electrolytes are what attract them to the egg.

FALSE. If X and Y sperm don't differ in their electrical charge (see number 6 above) then there is NOTHING supporting this idea. This doesn't mean that there is nothing to the idea that changes in diet can alter the gender ratio because that idea actually has a lot of scientific support. But it's almost certainly NOT because your egg is charged a certain way or cervical mucus is filled with positive or negative ions due to the amount of electrolytes in your diet. A sperm is a kazillion times bigger than an ion! Attracting sperm by way of ions would be like trying to pull a jumbo jet down a runway using a bunch of people with horseshoe magnets. It just cannot work and even if you did get the jet to move an inch or so it could never go fast enough to take off that way. Sperm move on their own because they are made to move on their own!! Full explanation of why this cannot work is here: http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/63173-ion-insanity.html

8) X and Y sperm have other, different surface properties and these when combined with chemicals present in semen and CM may alter gender ratio in some way.

PLAUSIBLE BUT UNKNOWN. http://www.bioscirep.cn/bsr/011/0265/0110265.pdf seemed to find two populations of (unsorted) sperm that had different surface properties and hope was raised that these two populations would later be found to be X and Y sperm. However, in a follow-up study done two years later by the same researchers, http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mrd.1080340313/abstract it was later found that these were actually two different groups of Y sperm that were carrying different antigens.

Other subsequent studies that looked for differences in surface proteins and antigens that were presorted for gender prior to study, all failed to find any differences (I won't cite all these because there are a lot of them and they are not really helpful but here are a couple http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8916045 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9306971). A major problem with presorting sperm prior to studying them is, it is VERY likely that any differences in surface qualities are altered by the flow cytometry used to sort the sperm. Some other very small peptides such as the H-Y antigen (previously found on sperm with mixed results in terms of gender ratio) are so tiny that they are very difficult to detect. That does not mean that the differences are not there, just that they are very hard to find.

In an outstanding metanalysis (which I once had linked here but unfortunately has been moved or deleted and I can't find it online any more) researchers Melissa MacFarlane, Angela Maschiari, and Richard Pursley explain why they believe differences in the cell surface of X and Y sperm do not exist and will never be found and I totally agree with their logic. To paraphrase: Sperm are formed from one cell that divides into two (please see my essay http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?467-GUESS-WHAT-MEN-MAKE-50-50-X-AND-Y-SPERM!!! for more about this process).

As sperm divide from one XY germ cell into X sperm and Y sperm, the X and Y stay connected for quite some time while the genes swap genetic info between the set of genes that are going to end up in the X sperm and the genes that are going to end up in the Y sperm. In a process known as crossing over, some of the genes your husband inherited from his mother trade places with some of the genes he inherited from his father, ensuring that both sons and daughters will inherit a diverse amount of genetic info from both their paternal grandparents. The cells do not divide until AFTER all this genetic transcription has taken place. X and Y sperm are really just one big megasperm wearing the exact same skin, until after all this swapping has occurred. They are really the same cell until all this happens, and then and only then do they divide into two. This seems to indicate that whatever is on the outside of both sperm is basically the same.

It is certainly possible that there could be some mechanism that kicks in after the sperm are separated but there is no evidence to support this.

NUTSHELL VERSION - X sperm are very slightly larger than Y sperm but appear the same in most other ways. X and Y sperm have been observed to swim slightly differently in a test tube. Most of the supposed differences between X and Y sperm are based solely on the mistaken ideas of a well-meaning and actually quite brilliant man who was completely wrong and has been proven wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[Dreamingforaboy]

Great piece of info Atomic, thank you.

[lindi]

wow thank you!

[Freya]

Do you still want that article, atomic? I've got it.

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes! I would LOVE to have it.

[Freya]

HA, managed it. Didn't realise I had to go advanced. Here you go!

[atomic sagebrush]

Thank you so very much Freya! I see I missed a post there (sometimes I am oblivious LOL!!) Thanks again.

[Flava]

I just find this great info! I hate shettles BTW...
But I feel so down now.:sad:
it's like no matter what we do just don't matter it's not going to change anything.
We just can't do nothing to get pregnant with a gender we want to.
And for some reason some of us only get girl or only boys.
So wth Im doing here swaying anyway?

[atomic sagebrush]

Don't get down, just because we don't totally understand how it works yet and got a few things wrong, it doesn't mean that it doesn't. We don't need to know how gravity works to not fly off the planet LOL.

No matter what, we do know that some things do seem to sway because the gender ratio does seem to vary in unexpected ways - it's not just 50-50 for everyone.

[mis2ninos]

You mentioned that sperm do swim differently, is it true that x sperm swim in circles and y sperm swim straight?? Asking because I am going to observe DH semen after abstinence and after frequent release so need to know what to look for....thanks!

[rainbowflower]

You mentioned that sperm do swim differently, is it true that x sperm swim in circles and y sperm swim straight?? Asking because I am going to observe DH semen after abstinence and after frequent release so need to know what to look for....thanks!

yep, true.. there are videos of it doing this on youtube but it's very slow!

[atomic sagebrush]

I personally believe it is very very difficult for the layperson to see the difference.

[mis2ninos]

oh really well I guess I will give it a try anyway with my microscope hope its good enough!

[atomic sagebrush]

It's not the microscope that matters, it's just that it takes a well-trained eye and I think sometimes people see what they "want" to see under the microscope.

[XXdreaming]

this is awesome! you should write a book,you would make millions lol I would buy it :)

[TTC5]

Great stuff here, thanks Atomic!

[love being a mummy]

I just find this great info! I hate shettles BTW...
But I feel so down now.:sad:
it's like no matter what we do just don't matter it's not going to change anything.
We just can't do nothing to get pregnant with a gender we want to.
And for some reason some of us only get girl or only boys.
So wth Im doing here swaying anyway?

I feel the same after reading this info

[indigoviolet]

I feel the same after reading this info
I was just thinking the same thing. I 'love' having things that I can control like ions and ph to feel I am doing my best sway, but knowing it doesn't make a difference is depressing. Is it only diet then that we can control that can have an effect? (the hardest thing of the sway unfortunately!)

[love being a mummy]

I'm still not convinced that diet helps that much.
My friend has the similar diet to me
She has 3 boys no girls.

[nuthinbutpink]

I just want to update this with the information about the IG claim that XX swim in circles and XY swim straight. This is completely FALSE.

Here is an excerpt from a fertility clinic about sperm motility:

•Sperm Motility: This part of the test assesses how well your sperm can swim. Obviously, the stronger the swimmers, the better as it is quite a journey for the sperm to make it from the uterus to the fallopian tubes. Sperms are evaluated according to a four-level grade system:

•Grade 4 sperm are known to have progressive motility meaning they are the strongest and swim fast in a straight line.

•Grade 3 sperm (non-linear motility) also move forward but tend to travel in a curved or crooked motion.

•Grade 2 sperm are labeled as non-progressive motility because they do not move forward despite the fact that they move their tails.

•Grade 1 sperm are immotile meaning that they fail to move at all.
Ideal sperm quality dictates that a man should have grade 3 or 4 sperm in order to fertilize an egg.

So, the idea that Grade 4 is XY and Grade 3 XX is just completely false and I have no idea where that even comes from! Sperm cannot swim in circles or they would never reach the egg! Dr Wegner, our Embryologist on here also addressed this in her forum- totally false. Just think, if it were true, all the IVF people would get all the right gender if it were that easy! For most of us, it is a 50/50 split at the end of our cycles.

[love being a mummy]

Thanks for that

[atomic sagebrush]

The study cited in the essay, seemed to indicate that X and Y sperm really DO swim differently, at least in cows.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/(SICI)1098-2795(199807)50:3%3C323::AID-MRD8%3E3.0.CO;2-L/abstract

This is one of those things that I personally kinda doubt is true and suspect will be debunked at some point but just want everyone to know, there really is SOME science there and not just something completely fabricated.

[atomic sagebrush]

I was just thinking the same thing. I 'love' having things that I can control like ions and ph to feel I am doing my best sway, but knowing it doesn't make a difference is depressing. Is it only diet then that we can control that can have an effect? (the hardest thing of the sway unfortunately!)

I know and I wish it could be easy.

FWIW I do think some of these things make a difference, just maybe not in the black/white way that it's been portrayed at times.

Lowering testosterone/estrogen, drying up CM, pH, sperm count - these things can and do make a difference and they are within our control. Is it as easy as wearing a pretty bracelet or a magical pad in your undies, or DTD on a particular day when the moon is right obviously not - but I betcha it is a LOT more effective!

What I hope people take away from that essay is that perhaps it's best to focus on the things that really DO matter and are supported by the science, rather than wasting your life's energy (and risking raising testosterone) pursuing things that don't even sway.

[OnlyPraying]

thankyou so much for this most informational post. Thankyou for giving me hope and thankyou for making me love The Lord even more.... :)

[atomic sagebrush]

You are very welcome! Glad you found us!!!

[carmella_marie]

yes, this article is depressing. Makes me think there is really nothing we can do. What actually DOES sway?

[atomic sagebrush]

See I think it's really encouraging because it allows us to expend our energy on things that actualy sway rather than chasing after old wives tales and bad science.

Things that actually sway:

Blood sugar in woman
Testosterone in man and woman
Sperm count and quality
Maternal condition

Things that may sway:
Estrogen levels in man and woman
Environmental toxins
Temperature
Day length
pH (even if it doesn't sway in the way that people once believed it does, it may sway in some other way)
Quality and consistency of CM

These things can ALL be controlled in some manner or another. Things like diet, frequency of BD, and the supps we take are ways that we can alter those things.

[carmella_marie]

See, that is much more encouraging Atomic! Now I know what to focus on!

[carmella_marie]

temperature and day length? Will have to look into that, sounds interesting!

[atomic sagebrush]

My computer is freaking the f-- out this morning and I can't post links but the essay is called "the seasons and swaying" and it's in the Complete Index thread. If you haven't already, the Lunaception essay is kinda interesting too and along those same lines. Our bodies may be picking up on some cues from day length and moonlight.

[Out of the Blue]

Here's that link...http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-discussion/1693-seasons-swaying.html

[atomic sagebrush]

Thank you!!

[hmskl4]

Wow very interesting! Thank you. You mentioned blood sugar in women, how does that sway?

[rainbowflower]

male embryos need more glucose in their environment in order to develop well, females seem to be able to thrive fine when these levels are lower... so if you're swaying pink and you keep blood sugar low during the 2ww (i.e. before implantation), it gives the female embryos the best chance of maturing enough to implant

[hmskl4]

Great thank you :)

[my4leafclover]

what does blood sugar sway? and testosterone in men?

[atomic sagebrush]

Lower blood sugar sways pink (even tho it will rise temporarily after eating, that's ok); nice, even blood sugar that stays in a normal zone thru the day sways blue. No babies like very high blood sugar (nor does your body) so your body takes steps to lower it.

High testosterone in men sways blue by boosting sperm count and making very healthy sperm IF that testosterone was obtained naturally - low testosterone and also high T that was gotten thru massive doses of testosterone-raising illegal drugs sways pink, (altho I would not rely on that to sway!) Steroids are very harmful to sperm.

[mariposa]

HI Atomic, I have read this essay that you linked to me, and it´s really interesting respect the spermies, and I wanted to add that I read an article publied by a molecular genetist that claims that:

Sin embargo, en el futuro la genética molecular podrá proveer a los ginecólogos de armas más poderosas para lograr aciertos casi perfectos en la determinación del sexo del bebé. Hay investigaciones que indican que ciertas proteínas de la membrana del óvulo hacen más receptivos a los óvulos para ser fecundados por espermatozoides X que por espermatozoides Y ... habiendo otras proteínas que hacen precisamente lo contrario.
Es concebible, entonces, que se pueda encontrar la manera de bloquear molecularmente las proteínas receptivas a un tipo o a otro de espermatozoide y de esa manera lograr que el espermatozoide que logre fecundar el óvulo sea invariablemente de un sólo tipo.

which means that "certains egg membrane proteins, do it more receptive to be fertilized by an X or an Y and that is possible that -in a future- will be found the way to block molecularly the proteins from one to another type (which choose X or viceversa) , and this way achieve that the spermatozoon that fertilizes the egg will be INVARIABLY by the type we decide" (it´s more or less what it says)
I think it´s interesting, because my gut tells me that -altough of course sperm have a big rol in play- is finally the egg who choose, when is surrounded by tens of spermies, in a accurate moment, it decides to be penetrated by just one, and probably these membrane proteins have something to do with it....

I already don´t believe in shettels, nor ph, nor ions + or - ....but I must recognize I strongly think this Dr. have right and the membrane egg is key. And makes me think...will be this the cause that the combo "clomid + hardcore diet" seems to be so successfully? maybe this turn the membrane proteins in a way likely to be penetrated by a X sperm???:think:

Was trying to find info in english.... and found it:
http://www.earthtimes.org/scitech/sexual-selection-chemoattractants/1874/ yeah, I know it´s not for humans HAHA but it´s interesting to see how it works... I think the mechanism of chemistry may be similar in humans...

Sorry the extension of the post, but I really would like to know your opinion about this... have you heard about the membrane egg proteins? (maybe there´s something about it in this forum but I didn´t find :worry: ) what kind of proteins it will be? are we changing them through diet ? an so, is it possible that when we eat less generally and specially proteins (maternal condition) the membrane egg is also poor in proteins, so, thinner and because of it, is more easily to be penatrated by a X (slighthly bigger) ? :think:

[BZ94]

Been wondering--and this might be the place to post it--how does "big O" affect gender selection? Been obsessing on the fact that despite my best effort I had a big O when ttc the baby I'm now 10 weeks pregnant with, but it seems based on the above info, it might not have made a difference? (I was ttc girl btw)...

[mariposa]

Been wondering--and this might be the place to post it--how does "big O" affect gender selection? Been obsessing on the fact that despite my best effort I had a big O when ttc the baby I'm now 10 weeks pregnant with, but it seems based on the above info, it might not have made a difference? (I was ttc girl btw)...

BZ94, the info above are my suspects...I have no evidences! Anyway it would be something that happens in the moment of the fertilization the egg. During the way from de VJ to the egg, the sperm swim in CM. This CM and VJ fluids seems to be more alkaline when you have a big O, so sways blue because it increase the amount of spermies that get the egg zone. But I guess atomic, will be able to explain it better, I really haven´t read much about big O, and don´t think if you had a big O means that you haven´t a little girl!!! In fact I didn´t have a big O when conceived my DS and he´s all boy :wink:

[mariposa]

Sorry to continue with it, but I keep reading about it, and all the mechanism of a fertilization is based in proteins recognition and fusion between them. So definitively something around quantity and type of the proteins egg membrane´s must be. My assumption is that hormones and diet determinate the proteines of the egg (likely to X or Y) and thus, keep off the other gender sperm, through a mechanism similar to the blockade that the egg does once is fertilized, avoiding the entrance of more spermies.... could be? :think:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g_7gZcmj7w

http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/29592/title/Sperm-mystery-solved/


(this last link is more about the attraction power of progesterone...maybe atracts more x than y??well don´t know because the scientific articles are difficoult to me to read in english :think:

Anyway......AMAZING!!!! I love research about it!! :HH:

[atomic sagebrush]

Anything is possible and for right now it's as good a theory as any, I don't discount anything and have read about it before, BUT I don't think it's super likely for a few different reasons.

Firstly, boy/girl twins and multiples like Jon and Kate where there are both boys and girls, and secondly when people go high tech and get equal gender splits.

Secondly because for most of the time while they are developing, X and Y sperm are just one big XY cell wearing the exact same skin - only at the point where they divide, which is near the end of their development, do they even become different things at all, until then they are one thing with one skin and so it seems likely that their skin stays the same after they divide too, so externally X and Y sperm are probably not even any different.

Thirdly, some things that have been best proven to sway are coming from men, low sperm count and quality regardless of reason sways pink, and so that doesn't seem to add up at all to me that the egg is choosing anything.

And lastly, it's because it's a "magic bullet" solution and nothing in the human body works like a magic bullet. I do not think that gender ratio can come down to one surefire thing like that, where if we get everything just so, the egg will always "choose" the right gender sperm.

In terms of the other study that is done in marine mammals, it is not good for our purposes, because mammal eggs don't work the same way because they have internal fertilization. Marine animal's eggs have to keep sperm from other animals that is also floating around in the ocean from fertilizing them and so have different mechanisms in order to do that. Plus, marine animals, even up to crocodiles, have been proven to have other things that affect gender ratio (like minerals, temperature, and the presence of another of a different gender) that don't affect humans at all, and many of them can actually change genders anyway.

The LE Diet provides a normal protein intake and actually more than most people get around the world and throughout history, yet babies have been born at about 50-50 all the time around the world, so I just don't think protein intake can have that much of a cause and effect that way. If anything, I think that a poor diet would make a thicker eggshell (age does this too) and that's what gives the bigger X a potential advantage.

[atomic sagebrush]

Been wondering--and this might be the place to post it--how does "big O" affect gender selection? Been obsessing on the fact that despite my best effort I had a big O when ttc the baby I'm now 10 weeks pregnant with, but it seems based on the above info, it might not have made a difference? (I was ttc girl btw)...

I had one too when I got my DD, BZ.

We've done polls on IG and GD and there have def. been many girl moms who had big O's, I would try not to worry at all. I do think it's one of those things that may help a bit, but is not a make or break thing at all.

[mariposa]

Thanks for your thoughts, atomic!! They have a lot of sense, It were just my assumptions...although I still suspect there´s something around the egg membrane..I wish to be a scientific woman who works investigating it!! :bigsmile:

[mariposa]

And a last question about this....so,if you don´t think the egg "selects" the sperm, or its membrane can be influenced....how does the diet and hormones work in a sway? I mean, if diet and hormones doesn´t affect directly the egg, what does the diet and hormones affect to? only CM and thus, sway? :think: (I know the low sugar blood is good for a female implantation, but I don´t mention because it would be a sway tactic "after" the baby is conceived, not a way to advantage an sperm respect the other, isn´t it?

Also I was thinking about the twins with 2 genders....could be a "neutral" membrane if the diet and hormones are in a perfect balance, and respect the different proteins surfaces of X and Y spermies, could be something that happens after, altough they come from the same cell (like in babies that generates all kind of cells from just one) :think:

I don´t want to seem that I have a special interest in alll this around membrane egg to be true, is just because I find a lot of sense in this theory and just can share my thoughts about sway in this site, anyway for me is completely complementary to all your info here :agree:

[atomic sagebrush]

I think the diet and hormones do something to the CM that either affects X and Y differently, sends some signal to X or Y that make them possibly capacitate at different rates, or kills off more sperm, and then it's the numbers of sperm that is swaying somehow. My theory is that if more sperm reach the egg, it somehow gives Y an advantage, and if fewer sperm reach the egg, it somehow gives X an advantage, but an advantage is all - I simply do not believe that there is anything out there that sways all the time. I think it's a mechanical advantage, not a chemical one...the X sperm are just a tiny bit bigger and so may be able to get through the egg with fewer sperm to help them (it takes lots of sperm to get through the eggshell) and maybe if more are there, the slightly smaller Y sperm have an advantage.

I don't believe in ideas like "balance" when it comes to hormones - the human body is always in flux, I just don't think it works like that.

I appreciate you sharing your info! That's what this site is all about! Thank you!!! :)

[mariposa]

I think the diet and hormones do something to the CM that either affects X and Y differently, sends some signal to X or Y that make them possibly capacitate at different rates, or kills off more sperm, and then it's the numbers of sperm that is swaying somehow. My theory is that if more sperm reach the egg, it somehow gives Y an advantage, and if fewer sperm reach the egg, it somehow gives X an advantage, but an advantage is all - I simply do not believe that there is anything out there that sways all the time. I think it's a mechanical advantage, not a chemical one...the X sperm are just a tiny bit bigger and so may be able to get through the egg with fewer sperm to help them (it takes lots of sperm to get through the eggshell) and maybe if more are there, the slightly smaller Y sperm have an advantage.

I don't believe in ideas like "balance" when it comes to hormones - the human body is always in flux, I just don't think it works like that.

I appreciate you sharing your info! That's what this site is all about! Thank you!!! :)

thank you very much atomic, I love read your conclussions! it´s really interesting what you say about "a mechanical advantage, not a chemical one" , and in fact has a LOT of sense (and probably the egg membrane has a role in play just around this "mechanich" process simply being harder or softer, and not about chemical unions between cell proteins ..... :think: I don´t know if one day we will know how it works but definitively, but if it happens, you will have contributed a lot with your support on here. :happy:

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes, exactly - the diet may affect CM and then the eggshell itself, and then those two things combined PLUS sperm count/quality, offer an advantage to one sperm vs. the other.

The way I think of it, is a pencil that is sharp vs. an unsharpened one, and a piece of paper vs. a piece of cardboard...the sharp pencil can poke right thru a piece of paper but if you tried to put it into cardboard the tip might break off, while an unsharpened pencil would just slide right off paper but you could stick it through the piece of cardboard if you used enough force. Or it may work the exact opposite way - the pointy ones may have an advantage at cardboard and the thicker may have an advantage with thin paper. So the more/less swimmers are at the egg, it makes the shell easier to penetrate by Y sperm and somehow that's what is doing the swaying. It's just a theory but I wanted to come up with a theory that didn't involve any undiscovered things like ions or protein, and it seems to explain everything pretty well, even the stuff that wasn't able to be explained by other theories.

[mariposa]

It has totally sense to me atomic, it´s great!!!:agree:

[mariposa]

Hi atomic, as you know since my docor told me about those men who "almost all" were Y or X :worry: I´m searching for info about this, not because I believe she could really "saw" it, but to know about what happens after the 50x-50y production. I´m agree with you about after the "production" things may happens that do a sligh gap between alives x and y, trought hormones, chemicals or we don´t why (we talk about it in another thread I can´t remember now).

Since I´m really worried that my body never is going to think for me is better to choice a girl, I´m trying to focus also in what my DH can do for the sway too. And reading this document you linked I just saw this chart and couldn´t be more scared. Please I would like you to tell me if I haven´t understand it correctly.

7348

I assume they tested a sample from various donors to see the measurement of x and y, and we can see there´s no such a big difference between them. Ok,all right about it. But what really scare me is last columns...... why in the samples the collected (with x and y mixed in theory) is SO big the diferents x- y percentages?? :nails: There´s many samples donors that are 100% x or y? statically it shouldn´t happen. No one donor is about a 50-50???. Am I missunderstanding the chart?

As you told me we know men like divers or airmen have mostly girls...do you think the gap can be so big? it could be fantastic or very bad for a sway, because if we (women) do such an effort to sway, and our DH give us a batch 80% (for example) of the oppositte gender is really frustrating.... What my DH can do to sway apart from sudafed, tons of soy, licorice root, hot baths (and abstain to make all these ingredients do the effect on the y sperm) ? (Besides all this, he only can pray, can´t he?... ;)

[Pangea]

Mariposa, if you look at the table where it says no. of spermatozoa, it doesn't say no.of spermatozoa/million. This means that those numbers listed are the real numbers, therefore for donor 2 they have only selected 14 sperm.

If you read the method you will see that they selected roughly 100 sperm for each donor, and the ratio of x to y was 1:1. They noticed a difference in the sperm shapes and sizes between x and y, but they noted that the differences were in many cases specific to the individual donor. So in some donors the x sperm were consistently bigger and longer, and in others it was the other way round.

What they were doing in that table was taking a small sample from these donors who had differences in the shape and size of the sperm, and then separating the sperm based on size and shape. As you can see by the results, it was quite accurate in predicting whether the sperm was x or y. And if you look donor 9 sperm is completely the opposite to everyone elses.

I hope I've managed to explain that properly!

[mariposa]

Mariposa, if you look at the table where it says no. of spermatozoa, it doesn't say no.of spermatozoa/million. This means that those numbers listed are the real numbers, therefore for donor 2 they have only selected 14 sperm.

If you read the method you will see that they selected roughly 100 sperm for each donor, and the ratio of x to y was 1:1. They noticed a difference in the sperm shapes and sizes between x and y, but they noted that the differences were in many cases specific to the individual donor. So in some donors the x sperm were consistently bigger and longer, and in others it was the other way round.

What they were doing in that table was taking a small sample from these donors who had differences in the shape and size of the sperm, and then separating the sperm based on size and shape. As you can see by the results, it was quite accurate in predicting whether the sperm was x or y. And if you look donor 9 sperm is completely the opposite to everyone elses.

I hope I've managed to explain that properly!

thanks Pangea!!! you have explained it very well to me... It´s hard to understand fully the medical text in english and often I go directly to conclussions and charts to make it easy to me :worry:So, there are men with big differences in shape and size , while in other men is more or less the same?...interesting!!! I wish I know what kind is my DH sperm... :bigsmile:
But the important is that still ratio like 1:1!! :agree: it will be interesting if we could know if the 1:1 are both alived in the same proportion or we could do things to kill or "sleep" the opposite gender sperm.....

[1adorablebabyboymom]

What do you mean by day length and temperature? thanks!!



See I think it's really encouraging because it allows us to expend our energy on things that actualy sway rather than chasing after old wives tales and bad science.

Things that actually sway:

Blood sugar in woman
Testosterone in man and woman
Sperm count and quality
Maternal condition

Things that may sway:
Estrogen levels in man and woman
Environmental toxins
Temperature
Day length
pH (even if it doesn't sway in the way that people once believed it does, it may sway in some other way)
Quality and consistency of CM

These things can ALL be controlled in some manner or another. Things like diet, frequency of BD, and the supps we take are ways that we can alter those things.

[1+2+3boys]

Thanks so much for this thread and the recent essay linked form the main page about why the timing method doesn't work. I am finally starting to understand how gender swaying works

[atomic sagebrush]

What do you mean by day length and temperature? thanks!!

Oh sorry this one sneaked past me it's in this essay http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/1693-seasons-swaying.html

[atomic sagebrush]

bump updated version

[atomic sagebrush]

Hi atomic, as you know since my docor told me about those men who "almost all" were Y or X :worry: I´m searching for info about this, not because I believe she could really "saw" it, but to know about what happens after the 50x-50y production. I´m agree with you about after the "production" things may happens that do a sligh gap between alives x and y, trought hormones, chemicals or we don´t why (we talk about it in another thread I can´t remember now).

Since I´m really worried that my body never is going to think for me is better to choice a girl, I´m trying to focus also in what my DH can do for the sway too. And reading this document you linked I just saw this chart and couldn´t be more scared. Please I would like you to tell me if I haven´t understand it correctly.

7348

I assume they tested a sample from various donors to see the measurement of x and y, and we can see there´s no such a big difference between them. Ok,all right about it. But what really scare me is last columns...... why in the samples the collected (with x and y mixed in theory) is SO big the diferents x- y percentages?? :nails: There´s many samples donors that are 100% x or y? statically it shouldn´t happen. No one donor is about a 50-50???. Am I missunderstanding the chart?

As you told me we know men like divers or airmen have mostly girls...do you think the gap can be so big? it could be fantastic or very bad for a sway, because if we (women) do such an effort to sway, and our DH give us a batch 80% (for example) of the oppositte gender is really frustrating.... What my DH can do to sway apart from sudafed, tons of soy, licorice root, hot baths (and abstain to make all these ingredients do the effect on the y sperm) ? (Besides all this, he only can pray, can´t he?... ;)

I would just like to point out that this poor woman was told BY HER DOCTOR that men made "almost all X or Y sperm" and that she had no hope of a daughter - completely untrue and supported by NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE at all - and she then did still go on to get a girl via swaying.

There are medical experts out there who don't know what they're talking about, who tell people entirely wrong things about gender ratio and genetics and X and Y sperm and it happens every day. PLEASE do not panic when you are told something that simply cannot be true - that you "can't" make boys or girls, that your husband "only" makes boys or girls...and here are two essays with more detail about both of those things!

http://genderdreaming.com/forum/swaying-studies-and-scientific-research/824-you-cant-carry-baby-gender.html?824-You-quot-can-t-quot-carry-a-baby-of-that-gender=

http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/47852-we-only-dont-make-boys.html