Back talk

[Sunrise]

So, my four-year-old, who has always been strong-willed but open to negotiation, has suddenly become this mouthy creature who pushes my buttons on an hourly basis.

Let me preface by saying I have always tried gentle discipline methods regarding tantrums, etc, because I think expecting a toddler to have the self-control most adults don't even have is ridiculous. So when he was smaller, and screamed about something, we'd do the whole, "I can see you are very upset. I'm sorry that you can't do/have that right now. Let's go do (whatever - redirect)." It worked extremely well and by the time he was verbal he would tell us, "I'm so sad," or "I need to scream," and he'd have his little vent and then go along with whatever was needed. My theory was that as he got older and more mature we'd be able to channel the outburst into a more appropriate expression of what he was feeling/dealing with.

As usual with new parents, I knew everything about the situation until I actually got into it. :oops:

So for a while we've had a problem with certain words he picked up that we didn't like, "stupid" being the biggest offender which he learned from watching Peanuts cartoons, of all things. He seemed to do it just to get attention most of the time, so we tried ignoring it, but that didn't work. So then we started disciplining for it - a time-out every time he said it, etc, and that has been more effective although didn't eradicate it.

NOW, though...ugh. For the last month or so he has gotten increasingly defiant - every little thing I say that he doesn't like is met with a scowl, a finger pointed at my face, a "YOU stop that!" or "I don't WANT to (xyz)", or simply a growl of frustration. It's not even necessarily when I'm reprimanding him, even, so it's not like he's picking up on my anger or frustration. Sometimes he does it simply when I'm explaining something or gently correcting him when he's not in trouble, just off course. He just doesn't want to hear it. When he's really mad he will say stuff like, "I'm going to cut you up" or "I'm going to break my chair" or other threats - very disturbing, especially when he does it in public.

I've read that this is a normal stage for a 4-5 year old because they are feeling out their independence. Okay - but still, it's unacceptable behavior and I don't know how to manage it. Time-outs are marginally effective but don't seem to deal with the root issue. We are not anti-spank for serious offenses but I'm not sure I want to go there with this one. Anybody go through this with your preschooler and have any tips to deal with it?

[nuthinbutpink]

I think handing out punishments even to a 4 year old seems to work some. Meaning, take something away from him that he loves to play with, etc. I am not a time out person. But what God and mom giveth, mom will take away! It seems to work. I do try and reason with my kids...it is in my nature and it is why I am not a fan of the baby stage and love them from 3+ so I can attempt to reason with them like I would an adult.

A strong willed child is hard to deal with at times no matter what you try. You can go the other direction and try rewarding him for making it through the day without a finger point, saying stupid, etc...have a jar and when he makes it through the day without doing A, B,C, etc, he gets to put a few pom-poms in the jar and when it is full, take him wherever he like to go. It is tangible, he can see it and that may work for him.

No matter what you do, the hardest part is sticking to it and following through! Taking something away is hard on me because I feel bad and I don't want to be the bad guy but I can't let bad behavior continue as a mom.

[lindi]

That sounds tough. I am not a time-outer or a spanker. He might be doing it because he can sense it really bothers you, and that's interesting to him because it makes him feel powerful. Maybe with the way he expresses himself when he is genuinely mad, so could have a talk with him when he's calm about appropriate things he can say to express anger, but that threatening someone with cutting or breaking possessions is not an effective way to let people know you're mad, because it just ends up scaring them and they will be less able to hear what his feelings actually are. The power of his anger will be lost. And it's not OK to threaten. And for that reason you won't allow it. I read that kids will respond better at all ages if you give them an actual reason that does make sense. But this is not from experience! Just a thought. Don't have nay advice on the other bad language.

[atomic sagebrush]

First of all (((hugs)))and yes, this is perfectly normal. Honestly I think it's the kids who respond best to reason who get this way, because they put it together pretty quick that being reasonable does not get them what they want so they decide to give "unreasonable" a try.

This is probably not what you want to hear but there are some stages when you are raising your kids where NOTHING you do will help. All you can do is hang on by your fingernails and wait it out and they grow out of it eventually.

Sometimes, with kids, (and again I know this is probably not what you want to hear) you gotta pick your battles. You can't control everything your child says and does (not saying that you're trying to) because it makes them so desperate to control as much of their life/universe as they can that they start acting out. You end up trading one thing that you didn't particularly care for, for 17 other things that you really hate. In other words, you may have to let go on "stupid" and other things that are really not THAT objectionable and tolerate them because when you don't, it becomes a power struggle and escalates from there. He is trying to control anything he possibly can and prove to you that you cannot control him. The harder you try, the more he will fight to prove to you that he is not to be controlled by you.

It sounds counterintuitive but rather than cracking down, I would back off. When he says inappropriate things I would ignore it or turn it into a joke. And you need to give him the absolute maximum amount of freedom and control over appropriate things like what he wears, what he says, what he wants to eat, etc.

Source - I raised my little brother and sister when I was a teenager, then my first two sons, all of whom did all sorts of similar things and worse and are now relatively normal adults!!

[Sunrise]

Thank you, everybody. Atomic, your post makes a lot of sense. I can tell he is jazzed by the power his words have over our reactions and when I can bring myself NOT to react it really takes the wind out of his sails.

I just wish I could convince nosy in-laws and such of the wisdom of treating the problem lightly - I can ignore or downplay many of his outbursts but the grandparents throw a fit and get all over us for not disciplining him enough, and often try to step in and fill the gap where we are "failing". :sigh:

It is good to know that others have been here and that this behavior is normal, not due to our rotten parenting or sociopathic tendencies or something.

[atomic sagebrush]

I know, that's why it is SO hard raising that first kid. Everyone seems like they are expecting you to screw them up at any second and they are so "helpful" (NOT).

Just know, it won't last forever! ♥♥♥

[atomic sagebrush]

Stumbled across an article I thought seemed fitting - HTH. Hang in there.

http://www.handinhandparenting.org/news/43/64/Handling-Children-s-Feelings-in-Public-Places

[LolaInLove]

Wow, such great advice here! I clicked on this post because my 8 year old daughter has had bouts of mouthiness, and certain things did tend to work. A lot of it started when she was watching TV, particularly the Disney shows (this is circa age 5-6) when all of her friends in K were talking about it. She would hear Hannah Montana et al mouth off, and then try it herself. We nipped that in the bud REALS quick by simply saying, "Those girls talk that way to their parents because it is funny and meant for TV...real life kids do not talk that way, it is disrespectful and not allowed in our house." Punishment- no more Disney shows. Now that she is 8, I let her watch a little of it, but the second she mouths off, I tell her "Must be those TV shows influencing you again, guess you can't watch anymore." She gets it. But we do pick our battles. When punishment is needed, taking away is the key for us. We take away whatever they are REALLY into that particular week/month....just the threat of it gets them straight in a heartbeat. My DH did say to them the other day after some backtalk, "Oh my, do you know our parents would have spanked us silly if we said that to them? You need to not talk that way or we might need to start giving out the same punishments, because it sure worked on Mom and I." That is obviously for older children to hear, but they got that, too! I didn't particularly like the thought of a threat, but it certainly worked by making us look like "nice" parents as well. They immediately felt bad and, I think, appreciated us for that moment!

Good luck with your son, you seem to be on the right track, and like Atomic said, they do turn out just fine!

[Sunrise]

We've been using jars of marbles - the "good" jar starts full every day and every time he talks back, argues, or reacts inappropriately (hitting his brother, for example) when he's upset he loses a marble to the "naughty" jar. It's actually working pretty well, even though the consequences are still vague regarding what happens if he gets too many marbles in the naughty jar. We've told him if he gets better he will go to the Fair this weekend (it's in town) and he does seem to be trying to recover. A couple times when he's said something he shouldn't, he immediately put a hand on his mouth and said, "Sorry. I didn't mean to say that." It's a step in the right direction, I guess, and makes us laugh when he's not around.

[grasshopper]

LOL...we are going through the same thing with our 4 year old...she has always been strong-willed and far older than her years and I find it quite a challenge to deal with the back chat especially when I need to catch up on sleep.
I agree with you completely Atomic...she is trying "unreasonable" out for size. Smacking/yelling etc has never worked with her...she has always responded much better to reasonings and explainations and time-outs when she gets worked up (time-out involves her sitting in the hallway until she has calmed down and is ready to rejoin us and explain to us why her behaviour was wrong...we never put time constraints on it as it all blows over much sooner if we let her decide when she is ready). We hadn't needed to use time-out so much in the last year or so as her reasoning skills seem to have become a lot better...until recently. It is like dealing with a mini-teenager!!!! Some of the back chat is just incredible.
I think it is a period of big change for this age-group...Kindergarten etc...becoming aware of peer groups and differences between what other kids are allowed to have and do...it's a really self-centered age isn't it!!! We have also had a few structural changes in our household involving my husband and I taking on more work and having more shared care of the girls which I think has made things even more unsettled for her. The other day she was telling me that she was feeling "confused" and her "head was all mixed up" and she was "just so frustrated" which made me realise that there are a lot of things going on for her that are challenging her sense of control...so I guess it is coming through in her behaviour.
For us I think the key is to get into more of a routine right now and give her a sense of control with little things (like letting her wear what she wants to wear instead of me having little mini-battles over what she has put on etc)...and like you said Atomic...just accepting that it is normal for this age and just ride it out.
Sunrise...it sounds like the marble method is working a treat. Might have to employ a similar sort of reward system in our household as well...something to avoid a clashing of wills...hers and mine.

[Chunky Monkey]

I don't have a 4 year old yet, but sounds like great advice has been given! Just wanted to throw out an idea that has been working for my 3 year old for a little while now. I got sticker charts with about 25 spaces on them, from a teacher's supply store. If my son does something good, I'll reward him with lots of praise and a sticker. For example, our recent struggles have been getting through dinner without getting up, going to bed without getting up or making excuses, etc. So I'll let him know he gets a sticker if he finishes his meal without getting up, etc.

I also reward him if I "catch" him being extra kind to his little brother or picking up his toys nicely. When he gets all of the stickers on the chart filled in, he turns it in for new books, toys, puzzles, etc. I keep the "grab bag" put up and let him choose his prize when he finishes a chart, that way it is up to him what his reward is. He gets control of that :) It takes about 10 days to fill a chart, but he gets the instant reward of a sticker, without having a bunch of little prizes everywhere. He also gets to pick his prize, so he knows what is left in the bag to choose from for next time. He always tells me what he wants to pick next time. I think this part of it helps him with being patient and another part helps teach him about working for what he really wants.

These came with about 30 charts since it's really for classroom use, but I get a new one out each time he fills it up. It hangs on our fridge too, so it's always there and he often likes to count the spaces that he has left to fill in. It amazes me what my little guy will do for a little sticker! Just thought I would share! Good luck!

And to be fair, we do the same thing with my 1 year old. It has no real meaning to him, but we do it more for my 3 year old. He sees his little brother finish his dinner, etc. and he sees him get a sticker. Then he gets to pick prizes too. I find things to reward my youngest for to keep their charts pretty even :)

[ThePack]

Seems like parenting never gets boring! My oldest daughter was the easiest infant, toddler, preschooler, etc. She's 11 now, and she's finally trying to exert some independence (which I'm glad to see for her development but *argh* the back talk can really wear a parent down--whether the child is 4 or 11)!

If it's any consolation, my 2nd daughter was strong-willed on steroids since day 1. But now, it seems at least for awhile, she's settled in that she needs to be respectful of adults. So I think it is somewhat true that the energy and patterns you establish with a child early on do help as they get older (even when it's hard to see that in the middle of everything).

[LolaInLove]

ChunkyMonkey & Sunrise, that is the exact same system my children's K teacher uses, just with pennies....she said it is the method prefered for that age range by the majority of educators (in their teacher mags and such), so right on, ladies!

By the way, I did try some laughter the other day...younger came to tattle on older, saying she was being mean. All casually, I said, "Well, why don't you go kick her in the taco?" (We think taco is a funny word for vag.) She laughed and then older laughed and they forgot all about it and started having a pretend taco-kicking display for us. (Sorry if you think that's crass, we are kinda nutty artist people.)