Sway for over 35 DW and DH

[porcelina]

So, after reading a ton on this site (and I'm sure there is more info, as I haven't read it all) and crunching some numbers from the spreadsheet, I've come to the following plan that is playing out this month:

1. LE diet -- I have been dieting on basically the LE diet inadvertently for a couple of months, so this is perfect. (including skipping breakfast and avoiding meats)
2. Full application Rephresh on cd10, half on days after bd, then full again on cd13.
3. Zirtec cd10-O (likely on cd 13-14) (I get tons of EWCM, and just saw some this am before I popped the next pill)
4. frequency -- we started thinking we would do abstain, and then I read that it might not be best for the over 35 crowd, so then DH did a release on am of cd11 and we DTD cd11 pm. Plan is DH release in morning and then DTD in the pm each night until day of positive OPK.
5. O+12 attempt -- still wondering if this will work out, but if possible, have DH release in the morning of O and try for an O+12. I have never successfully pinpointed ovulation, so don't have high hopes here, but probably will do this on cd14 or cd15 depending on opks...
6. Supplements -- I had been doing calcium, magnesium, tons of cranberry, and folic acid for 3 months (except cranberry O to AF during our one TTC month), based on that study of supps and bd timing. I just added in for this month saw palmetto, though I am a bit hesitant. (also, I'm doing coQ10 for egg quality)
7. Exercise -- I have been doing moderate exercise, like 2-3 times a week for 30 minutes on the elliptic. I don't feel like it is building any muscle, just helping with the weight loss.

I am so thankful for the spreadsheet of attempts. First, it is awesome that people who have submitted already have achieved a sway of 60+ percent girls, based on whatever combinations they have chosen. And, among these attempts, I did some number crunching and found that saw palmetto, exercise, clomid, vinegar or lemon douche, and breastfeeding were the only factors of all of the ones on the spreadsheet that were associated statistically with higher odds of girl, all else equal (remember, in combination, all these girls are having great sway numbers overall anyway, so even though nothing else statistically comes out, these other factors are probably very important compared to the general population, for whom we don't have data. Just thought I would say that so people don't discount all of the other important factors like diet and frequency. Also, lemon/vinegar douche can really make getting pregnant hard, and is pretty risky, especially for the over 35 crowd).

So, here are my questions--
Exercise -- do only people who do the intense 60 mins per day exercise get coded as having exercise in these data?
Saw Palmetto -- this is such a confusing and weird supplement. What do I have to be careful of here?
And, of course, overall, what do you think of this plan? Any tweaks? I doubt I will fall pregnant this month, just because it is only TTC#2 (and really #1 of true planning), and because I had a saline sono on cd9 with dilation, so I imagine my body will not like making a baby after all that intervention. So, all that to say, we will likely be giving this another go next month.

About me -- I have had 7 pregnancies, 5 losses (3 early miscarriages, 1 ectopic, 1 2nd trimester loss due to genetic abnormality) and 2 healthy boys. Usually O on cd13 or 14 and have 27 or so day periods.
Thanks!

ETA: Oh, and DS1 was with tamoxifen (anti-estrogen) for ovulation, trigger, and IUI; DS2 was conceived naturally with daily BD, likely right on O day and on a happy diet of lots of food and meat and sugar...:)

[myrainbowgirl]

A couple of thoughts on your sway...not 100% sure about this, but I don't think you're supposed to take cranberry and saw palmetto at the same time?

Also, if it were me, I'd stick to one attempt at positive OPK. Just do normal frequency until you start to get fertile CM, and then stop DTD until pos OPK. Then have one attempt that night. I am 36, DH is 38, and we got pg on one attempt after a 4-day abstain. Of course, I don't know what I'm having yet! But the one attempt at pos OPK was atomic's advice for me.

And on exercise, unfortunately, I didn't do intense exercise till after O (I lost a lot of weight, and didn't think I could afford to do more than 30 minutes)...so my exercise was a lot like yours. BUT, if I had it to do over again, I would do the 60 minutes of exercise, because results have been great on it.

Good luck!

[porcelina]

Thanks for your response! I spent some time looking at the ig forums when I first embarked on this study, but found a lot of it to be ridiculous (just read the post atomic wrote on her take on it vs. the recommendations here -- good read!) so didn't follow much. I also didn't want to change my diet because the IG diet was so restrictive. But, after gaining weight with two losses, I decided to go on a restrictive (everything) diet, have dropped about 12 pounds, and then discovered the LE diet. So seemed like I was doing it by accident already, and easy to continue.

So, for BD -- I like the idea of waiting until +OPK for attempt. I am still going to have DH try to keep count down though, since he (we) has already been releasing and I am getting close to O now.

For Saw Palmetto, what is the interaction/prob with cranberry supps? I have only taken one tablet of 120 mg. Maybe I shouldn't continue. I am also bfing my 2 yr old, but only twice a day and plan to wean soon (though I know bfing sways pink -- but I conceived DS2 while bfing anyway...).

[myrainbowgirl]

I really am not sure about the saw palmetto/cranberry issue...I could be wrong. But go to the swaying library and read atomic's essay on supplements. According to this website, bf sways pink, so I would keep on doing it! :)

[atomic sagebrush]

1):agree:
2):agree:
3):agree:

4)We have been seeing best results with one attempt. Much better than frequency has yielded - several people got pink without freq. but with one attempt, and several people got opposites with freq. and several attempts. My advice would be to stick with just one attempt at pos OPK (doesn't sway, gives best odds of conception)

5)O+12 makes it difficult to the point of impossible to get pg. If you ahve had an attempt before O, your egg will already have been fertilized anyway so adding an O+12 attempt is pointless. I would save myself the T-raising stress and stick with attempt at pos OPK. If you MUST do O+12 attempt, then do it the easy way and just BD 48 hours after pos OPK.

6)Do not do SP with breastfeeding. Personally I do not like you doing cran with BF either, but some people decide to do that anyway.

coq10 for egg quality is ok and safe while BF. may help lower blood sugar levels.

7)Moderate exercise sways blue, I'd like to see you increase that. At least do 60 min on the days you exercise, even if you can't do more times a week. After 45 min (or so) your body stops burning carbs and starts burning off stores of fat and muscle as fuel and we believe something about this sways pink.

8)The stats are great I agree but don't read TOO much into them. Some of those things (douching particularly) are done only by people who are highly committed to swaying and may be doing stricter sways than others. Anyone doing a more "lazy" sway does not douche and also may be more relaxed about other aspects too (nothing wrong with that at all!!)

9)Re exercise, these are self-reported stats and so I'm not totally sure if they all did the intense exercise. Someone did tell me that the woman who got the opposite was doing IG diet and also did only mod. exercise but I have not confirmed this as of yet. the 60 6-7 is just what I think is going to work for most people most of the time, if you can't do that much, you still may get a girl doing less, it's just that I don't believe that to be as reliable.

10)I woudl not have you do the SP. I think BF is a good sway tactic and I personally love nursing older babies even if it's just 1-2 times a day. I would never advise anyone drop BF for SP.

11)Saline sonos have seemed to help people get pg. No one knows why.

Thanks for letting me know about the tamoxifen, I've been asked aobut that a couple times. Not to be nosey but just curious why they prescribed it for you??

[atomic sagebrush]

I really am not sure about the saw palmetto/cranberry issue...I could be wrong. But go to the swaying library and read atomic's essay on supplements. According to this website, bf sways pink, so I would keep on doing it! :)

You can take SP and cran but you have to be careful because SP and cran are both blood thinners. Same with aspirin. So you may end up being way more prone to bleeding than if you just stuck with one or the other.

[atomic sagebrush]

Breastfeeding does not sway blue, it sways pink, I think you have a typo in your post but just wanted to clarify.

I got a boy and a girl while breastfeeding, 3 boys without it - so even tho it's no magic bullet, 50-50 is better than 3 for 3 ;)

With your history of losses I would recommend a higher intake of folic (2000 mcg a day broken into smaller doses and taken 4-5 times a day), the coq10 that you are already taking, and 8=15 mg zinc taken every other day.

If these losses were recent, and you feelt hat you could possibly be anemic, I would add in 18-30 mg iron taken every other day (so alternate iron and zinc).

Since your losses have been recent I really would not have you do the cran. I don't trust cranberry at all and I think you would have better results using aspirin because you can wean off it gradually at BFP versus having to quit it cold turkey.

[strawberrymom]

I am one of the "successful" exercise swayers who did not do the full 60 min. and also am of "advanced" maternal age :wink:. DH and I also took coQ10. You can read more on my sway and why I chose those things here http://genderdreaming.com/forum/add-your-girl-sway/28201-strawberrymoms-successful-girl-sway.html . Just my personal experience and what worked for me - everyone is different of course and I think it is most important to figure out what is right for you. Good luck!

[porcelina]

Strawberrymom, thanks so much for the link-- I'm going to check it out!

Atomic, thank you so much for your replies! You are such an amazing help to all of the ladies here and I am honored you responded! :) :bowdown:

Okay, so as for the saw palmetto, I went ahead and stopped (I had only taken one of 120). Let's hope the bfing will sway for me a bit. 50/50 is definitely better than 3 for 3! (and I fixed the typo)

As for my losses, they were 2 m/c, 1 ectopic, 2 healthy boys, 1 m/c and then the 2nd trimester loss. In all cases where I made it past 6 weeks, I was on progesterone supplements, so the thinking is that progesterone supplementation is key for me (and I am not worried about anemia). What is the zinc for? And why is cranberry bad for bfing?

As for the tamoxifen, I was diagnosed by an RE with PCOS. He said my body had too much androgens and so rather than using clomid, they would approach the issue in that way. He also prescribed for me a low carb and no refined sugar diet, similar to what people with insulin resistance would take, as I did not react at all in the fasting glucose challenge test. This was all almost 10 years ago and has become a little bit fuzzy, so I may have some inconsistencies in what I am reporting here. They also had me gain weight as I was slightly under weight (gosh, look at all those blue sway factors I had, LOL!). So, 3 months later on a low carb diet, we started TTC with tamoxifen. We tried on our own for 2 months, and then did IUI on the third month and got pregnant. Later, another RE at the practice told me I was really only on the borderline for PCOS, but that the original RE was really into that approach (diet) for dealing with PCOS, and he would have gotten me started with TTC earlier, but, whatever!

Frequency -- interesting! And, thanks for pointing out that O+12 is probably pointless if there has been an attempt. I have been taking OPKs from New Choice and have yet to see a positive. I think I may have seen a very light pink yesterday or the day before but discarded it because the instructions said the line had to be darker than control and it wasn't. But, last night there was no line whatsoever, and I saw some reports online of the instructions changing on that brand to say a line is a line and it doesn't have to be darker. I was going to be pretty pissed if I missed the window altogether due to cheap OPKs! So, we went ahead with an attempt this am on CD13 (cm switched to creamy this am, and I think cervix was open in the am, now I am pretty sure it is closed). So, maybe we ended up with an attempt right at O . But, technically I am relying on low sperm count (frequent release, J&D, relatively shallow entry, no O, Rephresh), so I should try not to worry too much on whether we hit it right at O... but we'll see. Probably won't work anyway!

On the stats, VERY, VERY good point!! Yes, it may very well be that people who are using vinegar/lemon to douche are the seriously hard core swayers who follow the diet most strictly. And, as you have shown, diet alone can be enough! Congratulations to you on your successful sway!!!

Thanks so much for the feedback!

[atomic sagebrush]

agh I forgot to come back to answer this and I'm out of time - can you please bump this for me so I will hit it tomorrow first thing??

[porcelina]

Bump!

[porcelina]

Strawberrymom, wow, your sway is heartening to me, since we ended up with almost the same bd pattern as you had as well. I just got crosshairs from FF on cd12, which means we dtd on O-2 in the pm and on O+1 in the am, if that is right. I'm not sure if the swimmers from O-2 will have made it, though, since that's what we did last month, but we'll see. Mostly I think I should be gearing up for next month with a better quality OPK!!

[atomic sagebrush]

Thanks for bump!!

1)Re prog supplementation - statistically it has not been shown to help. I can understand that you want to try it and that's fine, it doesn't hurt anything, but I hope you have had a workup to make sure there are no clotting issues and also to have your thyroid checked. If you have not had your thyroid checked since the second tri loss, have it rechecked because I think that's the most common cause of second tri losses.

2)Zinc is for improved egg health. The LE Diet is lower in zinc and so if someone has a history of losses without explanation then I recommend it.

Cranberry is not good when breastfeeding because it can come through the milk and make your baby bleed and bruise more easily. This happened to me with dramatic results after taking 2 days of cranberry for a bladder issue and also 1 or 2 low dose aspirin in the same week (NOT the same day I took the cran). I was tandem nursing at the time. My older son and I were covered in bruises and then my baby got a tiny cut on his thumb that bled for 2 hours straight (I had to seal it shut with Superglue) and then off and on for another 3 or 4 days after that. So I personally do not think it's safe.

Re cranberry and your losses and TTC, the issue is the clotting for YOU. You're taking a very powerful blood thinner, and your body starts cranking out large amounts of clotting factors as a result. Then, since cranberry can cause miscarriage, you have to stop it at ovulation. Your body doesn't realize this and continues making these clotting factors for days and days, in the meantime you have a fertilized egg trying to implant in your uterus, which is exactly when you DON'T want to have your blood be very "sticky". May make it more difficult for an egg to implant in your uterus and cause chemical pregnancy.

3)I've heard of the tamoxifen before but it's been only in women who could not get pg on the Clomid. So it's interesting and I very much appreciate the explanation. That does seem like extreme overkill to me because tamoxifen is not without risks as I'm sure you are already aware. I would hesitate to ever have you use it again, because as with Clomid, the longer you are on it, the higher risks of some forms of cancer, and if you ever in the future NEEDED the tam. for breast cancer then you'd need to reserve it for that. It just seems silly to me to take a drug that you may need in the future to satisfy some doctor's curiosity about a protocol (not saying that's what s/he was doing there, but at first blush that's kinda what it seems like.)

4)Hmm, well, I've only ever gone off of the "line must be darker or as dark" rule but I've def. seen some people who never got a pos OPK. As long as you get your attempt in before or at ovulation and not a day after, you are in with a chance anyway.

[porcelina]

1)Re prog supplementation - statistically it has not been shown to help. I can understand that you want to try it and that's fine, it doesn't hurt anything, but I hope you have had a workup to make sure there are no clotting issues and also to have your thyroid checked. If you have not had your thyroid checked since the second tri loss, have it rechecked because I think that's the most common cause of second tri losses.

First, to clarify, I have prescription progesterone supplements from my RE (crinone) and am instructed to take them after O. Yes, many doctors will say that some studies show progesterone helps, and others show that it doesn't matter. And, for that reason, many OBs will not give it to you if you request it. I had the full gamut of testing back in 2007 (back when I only had 2 mc and 1 ectopic under my belt) and the only thing they "found" was the borderline PCOS. Then, mc after 2 healthy pregnancies, went to another RE and they checked thyroid as well as a few other things. The main RE at my current practice has a series of articles on miscarriage, and lists low progesterone as one of the 4 things commonly behind miscarriage. My second tri loss was a trisomy, which was definitely a fluke and not caused by anything else.



2)Zinc is for improved egg health. The LE Diet is lower in zinc and so if someone has a history of losses without explanation then I recommend it.


This is interesting -- had never heard of this so will look into it. I had been looking for anything to boost egg health, and if it does that, I will definitely add it in.



Cranberry is not good when breastfeeding because it can come through the milk and make your baby bleed and bruise more easily. This happened to me with dramatic results after taking 2 days of cranberry for a bladder issue and also 1 or 2 low dose aspirin in the same week (NOT the same day I took the cran). I was tandem nursing at the time. My older son and I were covered in bruises and then my baby got a tiny cut on his thumb that bled for 2 hours straight (I had to seal it shut with Superglue) and then off and on for another 3 or 4 days after that. So I personally do not think it's safe.

Re cranberry and your losses and TTC, the issue is the clotting for YOU. You're taking a very powerful blood thinner, and your body starts cranking out large amounts of clotting factors as a result. Then, since cranberry can cause miscarriage, you have to stop it at ovulation. Your body doesn't realize this and continues making these clotting factors for days and days, in the meantime you have a fertilized egg trying to implant in your uterus, which is exactly when you DON'T want to have your blood be very "sticky". May make it more difficult for an egg to implant in your uterus and cause chemical pregnancy.


Interesting --will go ahead and dump cranberry then, esp if baby aspirin easier and safer as you suggest.



3)I've heard of the tamoxifen before but it's been only in women who could not get pg on the Clomid. So it's interesting and I very much appreciate the explanation. That does seem like extreme overkill to me because tamoxifen is not without risks as I'm sure you are already aware. I would hesitate to ever have you use it again, because as with Clomid, the longer you are on it, the higher risks of some forms of cancer, and if you ever in the future NEEDED the tam. for breast cancer then you'd need to reserve it for that. It just seems silly to me to take a drug that you may need in the future to satisfy some doctor's curiosity about a protocol (not saying that's what s/he was doing there, but at first blush that's kinda what it seems like.)


Sadly, I was given the medication and took it blindly, just as I blindly took cytotec after my second miscarriage which was a missed miscarriage. I greatly regretted that decision. I suppose I am more careful with medications now -- and information is much easier to come by, thankfully. I didn't realize those issues with tamoxifen -- glad to know now!



4)Hmm, well, I've only ever gone off of the "line must be darker or as dark" rule but I've def. seen some people who never got a pos OPK. As long as you get your attempt in before or at ovulation and not a day after, you are in with a chance anyway.

Well, I think it was more like an O+12 or more, since we ended up with BD as soon as cm got creamy (we also had an attempt at what turned out to be O-2 according to FF, so close). RE the crappy OPK -- check out these instructions (pic down page a bit): NEW CHOICE OPKs (UPDATE!!) - JustMommies Message Boards (http://www.justmommies.com/forums/f295-am-i-pregnant/2213567-new-choice-opks-update.html)
I didn't get those instructions, but rather the old ones suggesting line has to be darker as all other OPKs I have ever heard of. So, saw pink at some point but decided it wasn't dark enough and then missed the surge. That's okay, means we have time to make some tweaks to our plan this way. :)


Thanks!!

[atomic sagebrush]

1)My intent is not to have you stop prog if you and your doc think it's right for you, it's just that some women are given it in lieu of testing for things like clotting issues/thyroid so wanted to be sure you have had that done. :)

Sounds to me like all your losses were unrelated and just terribly luck. I'm so sorry. :(

2)http://genderdreaming.com/forum/ttc-girl-best-practices/7086-how-lower-ph-via-supps-cran-baby-aspirin-aspartame-other-techniques.html

3)Thanks for the update on the OPKs, that's very odd that they changed it!! I wonder if they redesigned it or just changed the instructions. Things like this are very helpful to me because it's impossible for me to keep up with everythign, I very much appreciate it.

[atomic sagebrush]

1)My intent is not to have you stop prog if you and your doc think it's right for you, it's just that some women are given it in lieu of testing for things like clotting issues/thyroid so wanted to be sure you have had that done. :)

Sounds to me like all your losses were unrelated and just terribly luck. I'm so sorry. :(

2)http://genderdreaming.com/forum/ttc-girl-best-practices/7086-how-lower-ph-via-supps-cran-baby-aspirin-aspartame-other-techniques.html

3)Thanks for the update on the OPKs, that's very odd that they changed it!! I wonder if they redesigned it or just changed the instructions. Things like this are very helpful to me because it's impossible for me to keep up with everythign, I very much appreciate it.

[porcelina]

1)My intent is not to have you stop prog if you and your doc think it's right for you, it's just that some women are given it in lieu of testing for things like clotting issues/thyroid so wanted to be sure you have had that done. :)


Yep, I know you are just looking out for all of us!! Thanks for all you do!!



3)Thanks for the update on the OPKs, that's very odd that they changed it!! I wonder if they redesigned it or just changed the instructions. Things like this are very helpful to me because it's impossible for me to keep up with everythign, I very much appreciate it.

No kidding, I can't keep up either! I have no idea if I had a really old lot (threw it out in the trash), since that pic was from 2011, or if they just vary a lot, or what. But, I think I'll steer clear from that brand (New Choice from dollar store) in the future to avoid confusion.

[porcelina]

Well, turns out you were right, Atomic, the saline sono may have helped as I just got my BFP!! I will post sway details later on if/when a healthy pregnancy is confirmed (after so many losses, I am very cautious). Thanks for your help and here's to hoping it all worked!! (DH's first words after expressing his disbelief were, "let's have a barbecue!" --he has been sad to be missing his red meat!)

[atomic sagebrush]

Yay congrats!! You prob. know this already but it's best to kinda ease back into the sodium, if you were limiting it. Rather than going from eating no sodium to eating tons and tons of it overnight. :)