Maternal Dominance Hypothesis and Priviledged Daughter Hypothesis

[atomic sagebrush]

Ladies, this is a massive undertaking and while I had sworn to myself I would never post another incomplete essay due to my habit of never actually coming back to finish them :worry: I feel like we need to get the conversation started on this.

The Maternal Dominance Hypothesis and the Privileged Daughter Hypothesis
(gasp!) Brace yourselves.

I have been postponing this essay since the earliest days of the site because I seem to have an inability to write about this topic without giving offense. But I think the time has come; I think some sways have failed at least in part because of a lack of understanding of the Maternal Dominance Hypothesis. So I’m going to try, with apologies in advance for any clumsiness on my part.

http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/11/11/2371.full.pdf the Maternal Dominance Hypothesis is a theory of gender determination put forth by Valerie Grant, an evolutionary psychologist at the University of Auckland, NZ. In a nutshell, the MDH is an idea that women who are higher in testosterone (as evidenced by certain personality traits reported on a psychological survey and NOT blood tests), have more sons.

There are some other studies that seem to indicate testosterone sways blue Evidence that mammalian sex ratios at birth are partially controlled by parental hormone levels around the time of conception (http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/198/1/3.full) (a very handy compilation that brings together a lot of studies in one handy package, but be aware that the researcher, William James is promoting his own particular viewpoint of gender determination that also involves testosterone, and at times tries to stuff things that don’t fit, into tight spaces where I personally feel alternate explanations make more sense.)

?? Wait a minute, I thought we knew that maternal condition was what is swaying!! Is this the Trivers Willard Hypothesis?

The MDH differs from the Trivers Willard Hypothesis; it’s an alternate explanation for gender determination in mammals, based on the same data from the same studies. Grant’s original claim was that maternal condition had nothing to do with gender ratio, that condition was a byproduct of dominance. Meaning, mama animals who were dominant simply took control of the available resources and as a result were in better condition, while less dominant females got fewer resources and then were in worse condition accordingly (this is true, this does happen; when resources are scarce, dominant animals get first pick and subservient animals tend to get whatever’s left). Grant’s take was that the observations of condition = gender that have been made in several species of mammal, were simply a coincidence that had nothing to do with why mammals conceive boys vs. girls.

However, in a recent review, Grant acknowledged that http://www.reproduction-online.org/content/140/3/425.full.pdf it is likely that there is some interplay between maternal condition and maternal dominance. I’m glad of that because there is a plethora of info indicating it, and it was dismaying to me to see her ignore all those things when anyone could plainly see it only HELPS her overall case. Testosterone has been repeatedly shown to be affected by blood sugar, overall health, muscle mass, body fat, age, disease, exercise, etc. Condition, status, and behavior seem to be connected on a fundamental level.

Simply put, the Maternal Dominance Hypothesis is the second part of the equation, the reason why you and I know people who are thin to the point of frail, and yet still keep popping out boy after boy. Aside from sheer bad luck, it’s the number one reason why otherwise good sways fail. Something in their environments is sending them cues that boys are a better “bet” for them, even in the face of lower maternal condition. Gender ratio just CAN’T be totally diet and condition or it would be a lot more obvious than it is and those clever old wives would have figured it out a long time ago.

While I personally have a bit of a hard time accepting Grant’s claim that self-reported answers on a psychology worksheet can necessarily mean anything at all regarding testosterone levels, after talking to hundreds if not thousands of boy/girl moms over the course of the last 6 years I am convinced that the personality aspect really does have some fundamental role to play in gender ratio and that it is the primary reason why otherwise great sways produce opposites.

??What type of personality traits?

According to Grant, the definition of dominance is influential, ascendant, prevailing, authoritative, or high in control. It’s NOT what most people think of when they think of high testosterone – it’s NOT aggressiveness (hostile, angry, violent, quarrelsome, argumentative) or domineering (overbearing, bossy, dictatorial, and high-handed.) Those traits seem to appear independent of testosterone. Grant uses a definition of “acting overtly to change the views or actions of another”.

My observations are a little bit different. While I do agree with the general thrust of what Grant says and I do believe there is a tendency amongst boy moms to try to influence others, I have observed that additionally, the moms who have boys tend to be a lot more of control freaks and struggle with anxiety and OCD-tendencies than the girl moms do. It goes well beyond trying to influence others, into a strong, almost overwhelming desire to control as much of their surrounding environment as is possible coupled with a high level of anxiety over doing so.

I would even go so far as to say, the desire to influence may come out of that anxiety to some extent – if an anxious person can get others to control their behavior, it may alleviate some anxiety for them. Example, if you have convinced everyone you have come into contact with to wash their hands with sanitizer, then you have less anxiety over germs, so that may be a strong motivating factor to influence others to live and believe as you do.

Interestingly, research in animals shows that testosterone LOWERS anxiety and OCD tendencies, so again, I’m not totally sure we’re dealing with testosterone per se (keep in mind, this whole theory is based on self-reported results on psychology surveys and not blood tests) But since we don’t know what this Factor X (or Y LOL) really is, let’s just keep calling it testosterone until we find out differently.

??Where’s the controversy with that?

First of all, I think Valerie Grant sounds like a bit of a bitch quite frankly, and so I can totally understand why people, girl moms particularly, take offense (here’s a particularly odious interview) Women with high testosterone may be more likely to have sons -- Health & Wellness -- Sott.net (http://www.sott.net/article/186325-Women-with-high-testosterone-may-be-more-likely-to-have-sons) . Plus at first blush, the whole idea comes off sounding similar to some prejudices that a lot of girl moms face in their day to day lives – the idea that having girls is somehow less good than having boys and people who have all girls are inferior in some way. (I do NOT believe that is what the MDH is really saying whatsoever, but I think it can sound like that until one really understands it, and it can push people’s buttons.) But if we want swaying to work as effectively as is possible (and I DO) we may need to put our personal feelings aside to some extent and really examine these ideas without prejudice.

Pink swayers dislike the Maternal Dominance Hypothesis because they feel like there is a subtle implication that women who have a lot of sons are bitchy, mannish, pushy, angry, unfeminine, and so on and that they’re not feminine enough to have a daughter.

Blue swayers dislike the Maternal Dominance Hypothesis because they feel like there is a subtle implication that women who have a lot of daughters are inferior or weak and that women have boys because they’re somehow “better” or “healthier”, and that they’re not good enough to have a son. Also, because losing and failing can lower T levels, some people have interpreted this as meaning girl moms are “losers” or “failures”.

Let me just put that oneto bed right here and now – just because losing or failing at something ~may~ lower testosterone levels, there are many other reasons why a person might have lower than average testosterone – diet, overall health, diet and illnesses during childhood, conditions in your mother’s or even grandmother’s uterus (the egg that is you, formed in your mother’s body when she was a fetus in your grandmother!!) even genetic factors could come into play – a petite person will generally have lower T levels than someone who is born with the genetic predisposition towards muscle mass. Lower testosterone is just a hormone level, it doesn’t carry any value judgements with it, having lower testosterone and daughters doesn’t mean that anyone is a loser or a failure in any way.

Additionally, I believe that while suffering losses and having things not go your way can certainly lower testosterone, there are also many people for whom things have always come pretty easily, due to the fact that they’re totally awesome. These people also tend to have lower testosterone; if there’s no competition to be had because you’re just the best at everything naturally, your body won’t waste time and precious scarce resources making a lot of testosterone. You don’t NEED it. The war is over; you already won – why make testosterone at that point?

As a result, these inherently fantastic ladies tend to have more daughters, and evolutionarily speaking, it makes complete sense that they have daughters because a woman who has a charmed life, may be able to provide the same for her daughters (and her daughters will likely be equally awesome and more likely to be successful at handing down genes for future generations.)
There are some primates where the dominant females have more daughters (LINK). Even in some other primates where this was not the case, when researchers took the females from the communal environment where they had to compete all the time for resources, into individual living quarters, they were shocked when they started having way more daughters (LINK). It’s believed that their testosterone levels dropped when they no longer had to compete. And in a study done by Elissa Cameron (the blood sugar researcher) to refute Grant, in humans, the vast majority of the wealthiest women in the world who inherited their wealth, had more daughters (LINK) – think Paris and Nicky Hilton, the Kardashians, and so on.

Very beautiful women also tend to have more daughters than the population as a whole http://personal.lse.ac.uk/kanazawa/pdfs/JTB2007.pdf

I have a couple of books in my personal library, that describe an alternate theory of gender determination called “the Privileged Daughter” hypothesis. (For some reason I could not find anything about this online?? It’s a real theory.) Just as the name suggests, for very privileged individuals in an environment where a daughter would be safe and well cared for and may have a reproductive advantage (beauty, charm, inherited social position), it makes evolutionary sense for those individuals to have more daughters.

In an imaginary world where females were protected, highly valued, and given lots of advantages, and males not as much, t would be “smart” for one’s genes to have a daughter in that scenario. Universally since the dawn of time, the average male is less successful at reproduction than the average female – remember a boy is a gamble that can pay off big time, whereas a daughter is a sure thing. Why would you even CHANCE having a boy if you had an excellent shot for daughters to have offspring that would survive to adulthood??

EVERYONE dislikes the Maternal Dominance Hypothesis because they feel like there is an implication – actually Grant comes right out and SAYS this! - that some of us plain SHOULDN’T have children of a particular gender because we’re not “suited” to raising them. I’m going to address this specifically further on in this essay, but on a personal level, I feel like the human animal is nothing if not flexible, and now that heaven has plopped a baby girl in my lap my parenting has changed to suit her (and OMG you should see my husband!!! W.O.W. he’s like a different man when it comes to her.) Could some of us be more “boy-mom” or “girl mom”, why certainly, and I will discuss this in more detail shortly.

??Wait what? I thought people who were high in testosterone were always running around getting into fights and acting like the Incredible Hulk.

While higher testosterone levels may bring out those traits in a person (a hostile and angry person, under influence of testosterone, might then try to influence others or control their universe in a hostile and angry manner) the testosterone is likely causing the attempt to influence and control, NOT the hostility and anger. Those things are separate. An authoritative person who tried to influence others calmly and rationally thru the use of carefully written pamphlets LOL may be just as high in testosterone or higher even, than the person running around getting into scraps with strangers. I have known some very delicate older ladies who can influence others with a raised eyebrow and I suspect they were packing some serious T. I explore that in more detail in this essay What does it really MEAN to have high (or low) testosterone?? Scientifically?? (http://www.genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/1211-what-does-really-mean-have-high-low-testosterone-scientifically.html)

There are A LOT of very negative studies and articles regarding testosterone online that are put out by people with anti-male political agendas, and many other studies that aren’t negative at all but are manipulated by people with anti-male agendas. Overall, by anyone who isn’t trying to spin data to support a particular worldview, testosterone is not believed to be a negative influence on personality and in fact has been shown to increase honesty, fairness, and leadership tendencies in many studies. The “negative” (read: stereotypically male) effects of testosterone were shown to be rooted more in cultural expectations (honor-obsessed cultures, the ones where people are highly concerned about their self-image and getting respect = more violence than cultures who don’t value “honor”, even when those cultures coexist in the same country LINK) than in anything inherent in testosterone in and of itself. And some of the “negative” personality factors linked to higher than normal testosterone were retested on women and testosterone was found to have absolutely no effect on female personality (women have way way way less testosterone than men do).

BTW – let me just pause a moment and point out that this is a major weakness of the MDH because we are dealing with self-reported personality traits on a psychology survey and NOT testosterone levels in blood – if female personality does not seem to be affected by T levels the way men’s is, then HOW can these answers on a survey mean that dominance = high testosterone = more boys in women?? Maybe it can, but then again maybe there is some other factor at play here. After all, Clomid raises T levels in the blood but still sways strongly pink!

??I still don’t get it.

Grant’s definition of the MDH is a murky one and difficult to understand and once you throw PDH (Privileged Daughter Hypothesis) in the mix it gets even muddier. So let me offer a different one based on my own observations (here is where we may get into trouble so please bear with me, I’m not trying to offend anyone so please everyone cut me some slack, I’m trying to help!!).

We have talked a lot about boy moms being “control freaks”. I personally believe that the fundamental difference between boy moms and girl moms, is that not only do boy moms try to be in control, on some level they feel like they HAVE to or dire consequences will result. Boy moms on balance are a lot more anxious and wound up than girl moms are and have the idea that they must control, control, control, every possible variable in any given situation. They spend a lot of mental energy thinking up every horrible thing that could ever go wrong and making plans on how to prevent these things from happening, or else making contingency plans in case they do.
To a boy mom, if something goes wrong, it’s because they themselves failed to control for every circumstance but that’s ok, because they will simply regroup and try harder and fix all the little things that went wrong the first time.

Girl moms on the other hand, don’t seem to have this same drive to the same extent; in my opinion they may have a bit more tendency to attribute things to being out of their control or as being the responsibility of someone else and that they are either powerless to change them or that it isn’t really worth it to bother because someone else will take care of that and probably things are going to turn out ok in the end anyway, they always do. (and this isn’t a bad thing at all as I will go into greater detail about, further on).

Now whether that is down to testosterone or what, I’m not sure we can say. Women have SO little testosterone when compared with men, that I find it hard to believe a microscopic fluctuation in T levels is altering people’s personalities so strongly that, as the stereotypes would have us believe, they are turning from normal, balanced, adult human females into raging she-beasts or passionless milksops. And the data doesn’t support it either, because as I mentioned, testosterone did not seem to affect women’s behavior the way that it did men’s and cultural factors are much more important to behavior than anything having to do with testosterone.

Estrogen and progesterone fluctuations really do mess with one’s behavior (it’s these fluctuations that cause PMS/PMT) and since testosterone, progesterone, and estrogen are all made from the same stuff, I think it’s absolutely likely that a person who is higher in T levels might have a different hormonal makeup all together. There are other hormones such as oxytocin, cortisol and many others, that have been proven to affect personality as well and testosterone has been shown in a recent study to counteract the effects of oxytocin – so if you are higher in T levels, it may not be testosterone affecting your behavior per se, it may be a lack of oxytocin (the cuddle hormone) http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/health/08hormone.html?_r=0 or some whole other thing(s)entirely.

So PLEASE PRETTY PLEASE I just really want you guys to be CALM about T levels. Keep em in perspective. We don’t know how it works and so PLEASE no one panic pink swayers if you get stressed out or upset while swaying, or blue swayers if you feel laid back about the whole thing, that’s FINE!!! It very likely has nothing whatsoever to do with testosterone (if testosterone is even swaying!!) because testosterone can’t be influencing your behavior ANYWAY. I don’t want anyone to read this essay and then start spending hours online looking up all the various herbs ever said to raise/lower testosterone and planning to incorporate them into their sways.

Fugidaboutit – we don’t even KNOW that testosterone is doing anything at all.

[atomic sagebrush]

!!The Ferris Bueller Dichotomy

So now let’s talk in a bit more detail about the Great Boy Mom/Girl Mom Divide. (please don’t hurt me)

Most everyone has seen the movie “Ferris Bueller’s Day Off”; if you haven’t, I think you should as a part of your sway homework because I think it’s one of the best illustrations there is of the difference between boy moms and girl moms.

Jeannie, as you may recall, is Ferris Bueller’s sister. She is consumed with justice and fairness and a need to right the wrongs and make sure that Ferris doesn’t get away with breaking the rules. She isn’t satisfied with her life as it is - she wants to change herself and control her image so badly she even wants to give herself a whole different name. She’s pretty much a stressed out ball of tension for the entire movie, plotting and planning and trying to call everyone’s attention to the fact that HELLO, Ferris is faking being sick and actually he’s really kind of a douchebag.

Despite this fact (or maybe because of it) her parents and teachers and the kids at school really don’t care for her much and everyone seems to prefer Ferris even tho he’s the type of person who is perfectly happy to lie to everyone, harass his sick friend into driving him around, and leave said friend to take the blame for something that was totally Ferris’ fault. BTW she can also beat the crap out of Rooney when the situation requires it.

On the other hand, Sloane, Ferris’ girlfriend, is happy to follow his lead. She lets Ferris make a lot (all) the decisions. He gets her into and out of a lot of scrapes but she never panics or gets upset over them. She has a good time even when things seem bleakest, and instead of being uptight or anxious over it, she can chill and find the magic and wonder in the middle of the chaos. She doesn’t need to control any aspect of the day, she just rolls with whatever Ferris suggests.

She’s emotionally available and nurturing for Cameron and Ferris alike – she’s not all wrapped up in her own worries and problems – she has enough energy left over to take care of others. Though she was probably terrified the whole time about getting caught, you would never have known it. Everyone likes her and no wonder, she’s awesome. Sloane had probably been just that awesome since she emerged from the uterus - always pretty, well liked, popular, made good grades effortlessly, and so on.

Can you imagine if Ferris would have brought Jeannie along on his day off?? She would NOT have been having a good time. Ferris would NOT have been having a good time. Cameron and Sloane would NOT have been having a good time. The people of the city of Chicago would NOT have been having a good time. Even dating back to the first time I saw this movie I couldn’t help but think that I would not have had fun at all if I had gone with Ferris. It looked so stressful to me and not fun at all. I would have been freaking out over every little thing, trying to control where we went and what happened, wanting to go home or back to school, taking Cameron’s temperature repeatedly, and admittedly would probably not have been as awesome to be around as Sloane was. I would have been inwardly seething about getting dragged into it– seriously, couldn’t we have done all this crap on Saturday??? and in a state of constant panic the entire time. I would have wasted so much energy on trying to control the situation and on worrying, that I would have had nothing left to give in terms of caretaking. The movie would have been called “Ferris Bueller’s Shitty and Stressful Day Off Ruined By His Obnoxious Control-Freak Girlfriend”.

Now obviously these are meant to be extreme characters but like the best movies, the characters in FBDO are based on real people, real personality types that we immediately recognize or else the movie wouldn’t ring true. Jeannie needs to control (or thinks she does) even though it causes her nothing but trouble and makes everyone dislike her….it eats up so much of her energy that she really doesn’t have much left for enjoying life, although she does occasionally find the time to gloat about how ~she~ got a car, while Ferris got a computer, and she has absolutely nothing left to give back to anyone else. Sloane, on the other hand, sails gracefully through every situation with aplomb – she never panics because she is inherently awesome and is perfectly confident in her ability to handle any given situation as it arises. She doesn’t compete because there is no competition; she doesn’t worry about what others have or don’t have, because she has enough. She has so much emotional gas in her tank, that she has plenty of energy to give towards taking care of other people.

Jeannie = boy mom, Sloane = girl mom.

?? WTF was the point of all that??

On previous occasions when we’ve discussed the MDH, some boy moms feel like they’re these hideous monsters denied daughters because they are brutes who can’t be trusted with them. Girl moms have gotten offended by the misconception that this theory means boy moms are in some way stronger, better, or what have you (or at least that they think that they are). THEY AREN’T, we don’t think that, we hate ourselves LOL, and that was never my intent for girl moms to have that perception in any way. I think Grant (who is a mom to 3 sons and I suspect suffered from GD herself and may have used some of her theorizing to soothe her own emotional needs) puts things rather clumsily in her studies and comes off like an arrogant jerk in her interviews, and then when I tried to report on the studies and ways to lower testosterone in general, I did a poor job of it.

Additionally, I know that many girl moms face a pretty strong anti-girl prejudice from society and family, the sense that feeling like boys are better, or that sons are superior in some way. That may predispose them towards assuming that everyone thinks that and so the entire idea of the MDH seems to be just another assault on them and their daughters. But please believe me, the boy moms don’t think that – we ARE women ourselves and WANT daughters desperately! But we just can’t ignore this whole can of worms – if we want gender swaying to work we have to come at it from every angle.

Are there differences, YES, I believe that they are. But no one is bad or wrong here, no one is being punished or denied a child of their desired gender because they are fundamentally flawed in some way. These are just personality archetypes that have been with us since time began and while they are stereotypes to some extent, we can learn from them to benefit our sways.

!!! So boiling it down, what is the fundamental difference here?

The difference between boy moms and girl moms in my opinion, is that boy moms not only want to control everything in the whole universe, they feel like they HAVE to. They feel like they have to so much, they never stop thinking about it and worse, they never shut up about it. Dire circumstances will result if they don’t control everything in their surroundings – no detail is too small for them to just let go. Even the behavior of others is fair game for this need to control and this leads to confrontations, escalation, conflagrations, and medication ;). They are Jeannie in a world that likes Sloane way, way, way better. And let me tell ya, take it from a Jeannie, it’s NOT FUN to be a Jeannie.

I don’t want any girl mom to walk away from this essay feeling that the boy moms are secretly feeling superior just because some jerkish woman’s stupid theory says dominance = more boys. Remember, one big reason why girl moms are so laid back is because they are confident in their ability to handle anything that life throws their way. Privileged Daughter Hypothesis states that if you will have awesome, gorgeous, and talented daughters, you will have more of them!!

Now if a boy mom walks away from this essay thinking that girl moms are secretly feeling superior, well…ladies, I do apologize but that’s good for your sway anyway. ;) There’s nothing wrong with having awesome, gorgeous, and talented sons either. You cannot control everything in this world, there is too much going on out there to control. You need to let others shoulder some of the burden of responsibility and acknowledge that not everything can be controlled – and even that not everything SHOULD be. Life can be more fun when it surprises you. Be like Sloane!!

!!Back to our regularly scheduled programming – Hold on atomic – I’ve SEEN you write about this before and you talk about women being downtrodden and that being oppressed sways pink.

This is entirely true. I do totally believe that. Like many things involving swaying, there seem to be TWO ways to get girls. One is by being laid back and going with the flow and taking life as it comes, secure in the knowledge that whatever happens, things will be ok (Sloane) and I think for most women in the modern world, this is the more common of the two.

The other way to get girls, I think is something that used to matter a lot more in human and primate history.

Imagine if you will, that Jeannie and Sloane were transported back a millennia or three and are now living in a prehistoric tribe or a small village. Life is dreadfully hard; aside from a privileged few, most women have a life of unbelievable hardship. Making matters worse, occasionally Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, Napoleon, or their caveman equivalent comes rolling through, laying waste to everything in his path. You could spend your life living with your happy little clan in peace and harmony, and then whammo out of nowhere, you might find yourself in the unwilling employ of a whole new tribe/king/emporer. Or, your father might have showered you with love and affection your whole life and then when you turned 14, shipped you off to a husband you had never met, in a land you’d never seen, in order to secure a business deal or political treaty. Or, your husband may have died leaving you with little option other than marrying a total stranger with a brood of his own that needed raising.

Your environment could easily have gone from something you have a fair bit of control over, where you were as safe and secure and valued as anyone could be back in those days, to a situation in which not only might you have no control over anything at all, but you and your children may even be in mortal peril.

In such circumstances, going all “Jeannie” on everyone and making demands and insisting that everyone follow your rules, is not going to get you anywhere and may even get you and your offspring killed or at such a permanent disadvantage that they were less likely to reproduce as adults.
That’s kinda been a woman’s lot in this world until very recently and still is, in many parts of the world. Is it right that things were like that, are we HAPPY it was ever like that, NO, obviously not. Just because something is wrong and repellant to us, it doesn’t mean that it isn’t TRUE. But these things happened, it was real and in fact, it’s largely what our bodies are primed for. We’ve had hundreds of thousands of years of evolution (millions, if you count our primate ancestors who also had to put up with similar circumstances even more so) wherein our genes had to be able to adapt to sudden, shocking changes in our environment, most of which tended to come down hard on we-the-fairer-sex.

Our genes don’t read Ms. Magazine, they don’t know that women don’t have to live that way any more and that we are safer and better off than we have been in the past. Our genes keep right on doing what they think is going to be best for their odds of surviving to make it to future generations. They detect the cues that you send them and act accordingly, to ensure you have the child with the best odds of surviving to adulthood and reproducing.

In a world of this nature, it’s not just diet swaying gender, it CANNOT be just diet, because the fact is that you can have all the food you need and yet still be in a horrible circumstance, and daughters tend to be more likely to survive to reproduce in horrible circumstances than sons are.

Even when we remove Trivers-Willard from the equation, this is true. (LINK) Time and again throughout history (and primates and many other mammals do this as well), a new despot rolls into town and the first thing they do is kill off all the males, young and old, to remove the competition. A woman who could “only make boys” – her genes would have been annihilated a long time ago. Those of us who are alive today are only here because our genes were flexible and could make boys when they had the best odds of survival to reproduce, and girls when they had best odds. If a Jeannie couldn’t change when the situation required it, there would be no Jeannies left alive today.

Additionally, there was many a time in history, where EVERYONE was living under terrible conditions and no one had any food. If some people didn’t have continue to sons in that circumstance, the entire human race would have died out. In fact a woman who could produce a boy in bad times because of her personality factors (she could continue to indulge her inner Jeannie even then, which would indicate she may be higher-ranking socially than others) would actually have a major reproductive advantage over those who were in equally poor condition but were less able to control their lives and environments, and less in a position to confront/compete with others. Sons have a more secure fate and reproductive future when their mamas are da boss and it’s as true when the tribe/ village is living off of bread or grain and water, as it is when times are good and everyone is feasting nightly. Maybe even more so, because if everyone else is having daughters, She-who-has-a-son is gonna be at a huge advantage.

[atomic sagebrush]

!!!!!Cads and Dads, Marys and Marthas

This essay has taken me quite a while to research and write and along the way I have come up with a theory that I think is easier to understand and explains the function of maternal personality in gender determination in the real world, better than the Maternal Dominance Hypothesis does.

Evolutionary biologists suggest that there are two fundamental reproductive strategies that men employ – dads vs. cads. The name is pretty self-explanatory; basically, there are two lifestyle paths that men can follow to increase their odds of reproductive success – a man can be a Dad, or a Cad. For more info on how this may affect swaying, see here LINK)

The Cad Strategy entails running around and getting a lot of ladies pregnant and not investing any time or effort (or not very much) in ensuring that those kids are taken care of. A prehistoric Cad might have 17 offspring and only 3 of them live to adulthood; a modern day Cad might have one child, then run out for a pack of smokes in the middle of the night and never come back again, going on to have a couple more kiddos along the way.

The Dad Strategy on the other hand, means that a man does stick around and help with his children’s protection and upbringing. Dads may have only three children with one woman but they do everything in their power to make sure those three children survive to adulthood. Net result, both Cad and Dad end up with three offspring in the end.

It’s not that men are Dads or Cads per se, these are strategies that men employ to a greater or lesser extent, to pass down their genes. We’ve all seen guys who we thought were great Dads turn around and leave their family to start a second family with another woman (too many examples to list), or men who were card-carrying Cads who suddenly one day meet a girl, settle down, and start a new life as Ward freaking Cleaver (Warren Beatty).

A guy is not SET to Dad or Cad – while some men may be inherently more likely to use one strategy over another, all men can use either when the situation requires it. Very few Cads would stand by while their hungry child died in the streets and an impending midlife crisis seems to send seemingly committed Dads to Cad-dom in the wink of an eye.

I suspect that there are two fundamental reproductive strategies women employ as well. By virtue of biology, women are stuck with their offspring for at least the first 9 months and generally speaking, more like 3-5 years, so a “cad” strategy really doesn’t fly where women are concerned. (yes, there are some women who leave their children, but we are talking about overall trends here and the vast majority of women thru the history of time, don’t – those genes would have been weeded from the gene pool long ago because a child without a mother doesn’t tend to live long in nature, red in tooth and claw.) So we have Moms, and Moms – but not all moms “Mom” in the same way.

I believe that women employ the “Mary” strategy and/or the “Martha” evolutionary strategy.

In the Bible, there is the story of Mary and Martha. You may have heard of it. Martha (and you can remember her because she has a “T” for testosterone in her name) was a lady who heard about Jesus and it all sounded pretty great so she invited Jesus back to her house so He could tell her and her family more about it. But she kind of freaked out that Jesus was coming over and went on a cooking and cleaning rampage. Her sister Mary was really chilled about the whole thing and was all like “Martha, the house is fine, if this guy Jesus is really as cool as you say, then He doesn’t care about a few dust bunnies” and went back to reading her Sinai Women Today magazine while Martha slaved away.

Then Jesus shows up with an entourage and sits on the couch and starts telling parables and Mary sat down to listen with the disciples and the neighbors while Martha was running around bringing out wine and loaves and fishes and manna and whatever else stuff people ate in Bible times. She got so annoyed by the way that Mary was just sitting there listening and not even helping one bit, when she, Martha, was the one who had even FOUND Jesus in the first place, that when there was a brief pause in the storytelling she piped up and said, “Lord, don’t you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!”

Well, the truth of the matter was, Mary had been right all along. Jesus didn’t and doesn’t care about dust bunnies and the disciples and neighbors could have gotten their own wine. Martha didn’t NEED to be doing all that stuff, no one wanted her to, she was driving everyone nuts with it, no one was impressed, and it was so distracting that no one could even enjoy the parables. What she needed to do was sit herself down and listen and learn, and maybe even bond with the other disciples and the neighbors. Jesus told Martha in no uncertain terms that worrying over all those meaningless details was taking away her joy from what really mattered and that Mary was totally right in letting go of the extraneous details to focus on what really mattered – other people.

Later on, Mary and Martha’s brother Lazarus got really sick. They sent several messages to Jesus but he didn’t show up until after Lazarus had been dead for two days. Both Mary and Martha were understandably upset because Jesus didn’t show up in time to heal their brother. But their reactions were totally different. When Jesus eventually showed, Martha locked herself away in the house and refused to see Him because she was so angry and wanted to punish him. But Mary, even though she was also angry, sought out Jesus and was like “Hey, what gives?” Jesus was so moved by Mary’s tears that He actually raised Lazarus from the dead and all was well. Mary was able to use that bond she had forged with Jesus for her family’s benefit.

????Ya lost me. How are those evolutionary strategies?

The point of evolutionary strategies is to up our odds of survival (because if we don’t survive, we can’t hand down our genes and we can’t keep our kids alive to hand down their genes) and also to help our children in the short and long term, not only by keeping them alive when they’re small, but by amassing resources that will improve their ability to survive and pass down their genes to their offspring.

The “Martha” evolutionary strategy would be to focus more energy in controlling the environment as a whole. A Martha would always be working at obtaining/preparing food, keeping things clean and orderly and warm, and even prodding others (as Martha did to her sister) to live up to their responsibilities (as she saw them). Marthas are rather competitive sorts but they mean well by it; I suspect that while Martha thought that Jesus and entourage would surely be impressed by how good a hostess she was, she didn’t just do it to impress. I really believe she loved Jesus with all her heart and wanted to be sure everyone was having a good time – it’s just that was how she showed her love, by feeding and pestering everyone. She probably reminded Jesus to wear his cloak when He left because she had heard that getting chills caused leprousy and didn’t want Him to get sick.

The “Mary” evolutionary strategy would be to focus more energy towards interpersonal relationships and also to some extent, reserving energy for things that are truly necessary for one’s survival while relying on others to carry more of the weight. Mary was certainly not perfect, she did kinda drop the ball when it came to helping Martha – she knew Martha would do everything for her and she took advantage of that. She got to relax and conserve her energy and focus on forging friendships that could pay off in the long term, while Martha cooked and cleaned for everyone. To some extent, Mary rode on Martha’s coattails – the house was clean and everyone was fed and had wine, so she was able to capitalize on what Martha did, while at the same time she was able to be relaxed, fun, and not a b—like her sister. Mary was able to show her love to her friends via interpersonal relationships because she had the energy to do that – she wasn’t consumed with anxiety and worrying over silly things – and that paid off when Lazarus needed Jesus’ help.

Brief pause – please understand that I am not saying nor even distantly implying that Mary is lazy or not pulling her own weight, or that moms of girls don’t do housework or whatever spin anyone is gonna come out of left field and try to put on this. The problem inherent in being a Martha is that you burn up sooooo much energy on worry and what is in essence STUPID crap that no one even notices or cares about (being perfectionistic and overly detail oriented) that there are not enough hours in the day and enough energy in the human body to enact the grand plans that Marthas can envision. It does no one any good at all to have handmade, hand embroidered matching napkins, placemats, and tablecloth sets if dinner isn’t ready when people are hungry (or Lazarus is DEAD and you’re so resentful that you lock yourself in the house and refuse to go see the one person who can fix it.)

Marys typically have the knack of focusing on what matters and letting go of that which doesn’t. Marthas can and often do end up spinning their wheels so furiously that they never get anything of any value accomplished. Sloane may not have particularly wanted to go to the baseball game with Ferris and Cameron, but eh, what else was she going to do for a couple hours, may as well enjoy it because she was there, and her acceptance allowed the guys to enjoy themselves as well. Whereas Jeannie was burning with purpose and would have sat there stewing the entire time about how much it sucked, how boring it was, and all the other things she’d rather be doing – but what purpose would that serve other than to mentally exhaust her and ruin it for everyone else?

Just like with the “Cads and Dads”, both approaches do have their advantages. A “Martha” strategy would help aid a woman and her offspring’s survival because she would be constantly controlling the environment as much as she’s able, planning ahead and preparing for every contingency no matter how farfetched. Marthas often demand that people play by the rules and do what they’re supposed to do. But, among the downsides to Martha is that it’s exhausting to be hypervigilant all the time, and it can enable people to stop carrying their own weight (because if they don’t do it “right”, a Martha will take over and do it themselves) and also can make people dislike you, because hey, it’s freaking obnoxious and also no one likes having the job that they have done, criticized and taken over by a bossy-boots. Plus, a Martha strategy is not going to get you very far when Genghis Khan comes rolling into town.

A “Mary” strategy would aid a woman and her offspring’s survival because she wouldn’t be expending excessive amounts of energy worrying about things that are really not that necessary. The kids will be fed, but they don’t necessarily need to be fed Organic Raw Himalayan Yeti Milk obtained by the hands of virgin Shaolin monks dressed in hand-dyed saffron robes while they chant prayers in ancient Tibetan (boy moms, I’m exaggerating but looking at you here!). She is willing to rely on other people to carry their weight and do what they’re supposed to do without trying to take over and boss anyone around – even if they don’t do it “right”. A Mary trusts that people will help her and help her children (and even trusts that her children can help themselves, an idea that is utterly foreign to Marthas), and doesn’t expend energy worrying about details that are really meaningless.

Interestingly, I have found that people are generally more willing to help you when you NEED it rather than when you demand it - we all know that person who is a little bit of a disaster (I am NOT not not saying this applies to girl moms!!) and always getting into scrapes but everyone makes excuses for them and bails them out constantly, whereas the person who usually never asks anything from anyone has one little thing go awry and suddenly people are either pissed and resentful about it or else whispering “man, she’s slipping” LOL. And perhaps less interestingly, no one wants to help someone who is demanding your help and then criticizing the way you did it.

Marthas take care of themselves and their children by doing it themselves and demanding that others do things the “right” way – as I mentioned above, if the whole world is using hand sanitizer, that can help protect your kids against germs. Marys take care of themselves and their children by cementing social bonds, trusting that others will carry their weight (thereby not alienating potential sources of help aka OMG will she ever freaking shut UP about the hand sanitizer?? I’m not going to use it just to spite her), and asking for and accepting help from others – while bringing one’s brother back from the dead is an extreme example , there are many real-world scenarios where a person who is willing to accept some help graciously from a friend, relative, or neighbor pays off big time (see The Little Red Hen Factor below)

While some of us are definitely more Martha or more Mary than others, just like with the “Cads and Dads” these aren’t really set in stone, people utilize both of these strategies and can switch from one to the other when the situation requires it. So if you’re a Mary- or Martha-type please don’t despair that your sway is doomed to failure, you can reprogram yourself to some extent and it will really help your sway.

[atomic sagebrush]

!!! The Little Red Hen Factor

Or, how social bonds really DO improve odds of survival for yourself and your offspring.

As I’ve reread my Mary and Martha essay I feel like the whole “accepting help” thing seems a little lame and not terribly important when it comes to being an evolutionary strategy. In the modern world in which we live, securing the help of one’s community really seems a little passé – we all just take our money and buy all the “help” we need in the form of goods and services provided by strangers. But it wasn’t like that, never ever before in all of human and primate history and it used to be hugely important and necessary for survival to be able to do so well.

Once upon a time there was a little red hen. She found some grains of of wheat scattered in the barnyard. "Look what I've found!" she said. "Who will help me plant these grains of wheat?" "Not I!" said the dog."Not I!" said the cat."Not I!" said the pig.

"Then I'll do it myself," said the Little Red Hen. And she did. "Who will help me water these seeds?" asked the Little Red Hen. "Not I!" said the dog. "Not I!" said the cat. "Not I!" said the pig.

"Then I'll do it myself," said the Little Red Hen. And she did. When the wheat was golden, she knew it was ready to be harvested. "Who will help me harvest the wheat?" asked the Little Red Hen. "Not I!" said the dog. "Not I!" said the cat."Not I!" said the pig.

"Then I'll do it myself," said the Little Red Hen. And she did. "Who will help me take the wheat to the mill to be ground into flour?" asked the Little Red Hen. "Not I!" said the dog. "Not I!" said the cat. "Not I!" said the pig.

"Then I'll do it myself," said the Little Red Hen. And she did. The miller ground the wheat into flour, and the Little Red Hen carried it home in a sack. "Who will help me make this flour into bread?" asked the Little Red Hen. "Not I!" said the dog. "Not I!" said the cat. "Not I!" said the pig.

"Then I'll do it myself," said the Little Red Hen. And she did. The Little Red Hen mixed the flour into dough and kneaded it (kneading bread with feathers, ew). "Who will help me put this bread into the oven to bake?" asked the Little Red Hen. "Not I!" said the dog. "Not I!" said the cat. "Not I!" said the pig.
"Then I'll do it myself," said the Little Red Hen. And she did. The delicious scent of baking bread filled the air, and the other animals came to see what was for dinner. The Little Red Hen took the warm loaf out of the oven, and set it on the table. "Who will help me eat this fresh, tasty bread?" asked the Little Red Hen."I will!" said the dog. "I will!" said the cat. "I will!" said the pig.
"Oh no you won’t," said the Little Red Hen. "You didn't help me plant it, or water it, or harvest it, or mill it, or bake it. I shall eat it myself!" And she called all her baby chicks to her side and they ate the whole thing right up!

According to the moral of the story the dog, the cat, and the pig repent and change their ways and are forever helpful. But in real life, there’s actually a second part to the story, about the time when the Little Red Hen gets the flu really bad in the coldest part of the winter, the rooster has found his way into the farmer’s soup pot, and LRH desperately needs help to feed her baby chicks. Because the dog, the cat, and the pig are harboring seething resentment over the bread incident, no help is forthcoming. That story doesn’t have such a happy ending for the Little Red Hen or her chicks.

Martha can be a great strategy if you are always able to keep up with it. If you really are able to always control your environment and provide the best of everything, then your sons are going to be able to grow up big and strong and have a good shot at reproducing. Beyond that, lots of big strong sons can even help each other and each other’s offspring by banding together to fight off predators, hunt, and grow food to share. The good of the entire tribe/village depends on the existence of Martha and her sons.

But Martha hangs on the thinnest of threads; when times go awry as they so often do, while Martha can manage singlehandedly in the shortest of terms (like the Little Red Hen, succeeding all alone for the season it takes the wheat to grow), humans don’t live in the short term. We live in the LOOOONG term and our genes live beyond us, indefinitely if we/they are successful. A social bond formed by two families or two individuals can live on for generations conferring benefits on both parties.

Even in less-dire non-life-or-death circumstances, social bonds are very important for the success of one’s genome. Choice of marriage partner, business relationships, fostering children, apprenticeships, and servitude (historically, many children did not stay with their families, once they got old enough, they were sent off to other families to learn a trade or to be cared for and educated by others if their parents still had small children at home, while poor families had to send their children to work as soon as they were able to) were all very important to the success or failure of one’s offspring.

I just don’t want anyone to think I’m saying girl moms, the Marys and Sloanes of the world are like Blanche DuBois, passively relying on the kindness of strangers. Not so. Forging social bonds and maintaining them, is an active business, it doesn’t just happen, it takes a lot of work. The myth of the rugged individualist that raises all their own food and never needs help from anyone, is just that, a myth. Those social bonds are just as important as anything that a Martha/Jeannie brings to the table and in the long term are actually MORE important for the survival of one’s genes. The Mary strategy can of course backfire if bonds are formed with the “wrong” people who withhold help when it’s needed (like the dog, the cat, and the pig) – but that’s why women emply both strategies. Remember, we’re neither all Martha nor all Mary, but a blend of both.

[atomic sagebrush]

Reserved

[atomic sagebrush]

reserved

[atomic sagebrush]

Is There Life After Martha??

Since the beginnings of this essay were posted, tons of pink swayers have frantically contacted me wanting to know what they can DO to become less of a "Martha". As an example, one of my Custom Swayers recently requested a bullet list of talking points and lifestyle factors that she can mark off to make herself be more pink friendly. (and c'mon ladies, she is not alone in that desire) ;)

But you see, there's your trouble.

In order to sway pink, we MUST learn to let go of control. The type of Jeannie Bueller mentality that wants to know precisely what to DO, exactly what to change, that wants to have a concrete to-do list of things that can neatly be marked off...THAT is what sways blue. It's NOT feeling stressed or rushed or hopeful, or excited about starting to sway. It's that drive/need for control, that belief that if only we have a list in hand and can mark off the boxes, tick, tick, tick one after the other, that we can change ourselves and MAKE anything happen. But pink swaying just simply doesn't work that way.

Of course this is not hopeless, but before I get into the advice section I want to address one thing very clearly (and I am going to use a bit of "atomic tough love" here so apologies in advance). Stress, the type of normal, unavoidable, day to day stress we all experience, we do not know that it sways blue whatsoever and may even sway pink. (LINKS). Obsessing over stress, I believe, DOES sway blue. Panicking over things you cannot change, breaking into a cold sweat, hyperventilating, and repeatedly muttering "I gotta calm down I gotta calm down or my sway will FAIL!!" I also believe sways blue. Writing long and tortured messages to atomic detailing the minute and intricate events of one's life history, spelling out every single event of the last day/week/month/year and lamenting over how they might have affected "testosterone levels" (when we don't even know that testosterone is swaying to begin with), sways blue beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I am always happy to help and act as a sounding board for you guys for any reason, but I get seriously concerned when I receive these messages from pink swayers where it clearly has taken hours and a massive amount of attention to detail to write - particularly when I can just tell that it is a huge part of their lives on a day to day basis - going over it again, and again, and again, reliving the events constantly, convincing themselves these things will ruin their sways because of "stress" or "testosterone".

Ladies, it's SUCH a step in the wrong direction, I can't even TELL you. People are replacing worrying over pH levels and timing with worrying over worrying. It is NOT the events that occur, and it's CERTAINLY not the events that HAVE occurred months and years ago, it is the obsessing over them and spinning your wheels making plans and taking action that is largely futile and serves no purpose other than to make we boy moms feel like we've DONE something to change things.

Stressful things happen to everyone, boy and girl mom alike. That cannot be changed. What you CAN change is your reaction to that stress. Sitting down for 3 hours to write a monologue about how so-and-so did such-and-such when and how and why, reliving it moment by moment, or even just going over it again and again in your mind, obsessing about how it surely wrecked your sway, is the absolute WRONG thing to do.

I can reassure you that any one event cannot wreck an otherwise good sway. However, I cannot reassure you that obsessing over events that occured days, weeks, months, and even years ago and repeatedly reliving them up close and personal, live and in Technicolor, won't. I also cannot reassure you that constantly going over and over your sway, poring over others' old sways, comparing and despairing and worrying over the teensiest details will not mess up your sway - in fact I'll come right out and say that yes it probably can. Swaycession ruins sways, there is not a doubt in my mind that it does.

People want to get the "atomic stamp of approval" and reassurance that their sway is "perfect" or that it didn't get messed up by whatever-it-was-just-awful event that happened, but unwittingly this actually serves to mess up sways. My crystal ball is in the shop, they have to order parts for it from Outer Mongolia and they don't know when they'll be in so I just can't GIVE you that reassurance because I just don't KNOW whose sway will work an whose won't. And the obsessing and writing long drawn out messages over things like "should I use RepHresh 8 hours or 12 hours before attempt" or "did my fight with my boss cause my T levels to go up" sways a zillion times harder than those things actually ever could have to begin with. Again, I'm happy to listen and help in any way that I can but I really thing several people are undoing themselves with this stuff.

Ok so now onto the stuff that you CAN do (of course, the physical pink sway tactics like diet, exercise, supps, etc are all covered elsewhere, this is specifically the mental game here). I have parsed these down to a few little mantras that hopefully you can repeat to yourself when the going gets tough – I tried to keep it brief so please let me know if anything is less than clear.

:princess:Desire is the root of all unhappiness.

We Martha-types like to have everything just so and the more important something is to us, the more out of control this tendency gets. In some arenas of life, an eye for detail and a desire to get things right serves us very well. But when it comes to the gender of our offspring, the more we envision things as they “must” be and the harder we try to get everything just so, the worse it is for our pink sways – not just in swaying, the day to day life stuff matters too. The more you wantwantwant, the less you can reasonably achieve, the unhappier you are going to be, the harder you must work to get everything up to snuff, and the more of a payoff you get in terms of testosterone (or whatever it is that is swaying blue) if you do manage to pull it all off.

Remember Mary sitting on the couch and not caring about the dust bunnies?!? Try not to aspire to a Martha-Stewart-Level of perfection in any arena of life – there is a reason why her name is MARTHA.

So much of life is really just not that important. Try to channel Bill Murray in the movie “Meatballs” – it just doesn’t MATTER if you win or you lose! IT just doesn’t matter! It just doesn’t matter! Meatballs - Great Motivational Speech - It Just Doesn't Matter - YouTube (http://youtu.be/e9mf3Bypyk8)

Will dinner really be RUINED if you are out of cumin? Will anyone even notice that your earrings are teal instead of cerulean? If the kids watch 2 hours of tv instead of one today or every day, will it keep them from getting into Harvard? Even in swaying, keep it in perspective. Does it even make any sense that eating a little extra fat one time, months before you plan to sway, can cause you to conceive a boy? If that were the case we’d all just do diet one day before we conceive.

:princess:She who reaches for the stars, often ends up falling on her face.

Boy moms aim high and are often pretty driven people who manage to regularly pull off the near-impossible. But for the duration of your sway, it is important to keep this tendency reined in. Good enough is good enough. Remember the 80-20 rule – you get 80% of the results from 20% of the effort, and in order to get that last 20% of results, you will have to expend 80% of the effort - and with swaying pink, that remaining 80% of the effort is what drives testosterone levels (or whatever it is) to the stratosphere and also prevents pregnancy for the vast majority of people.

Aim at a target you can actually HIT. The kitchen-sink style sways look great on paper but I have seen all too often, people going on month after month getting BFN, then getting fed up and convinced that they “can’t get pregnant with swaying” and drop EVERYTHING all at once only to conceive an opposite. Worse, tons of people doing uberstrict sways who end up stopping ovulation and have to sway BLUE just in order to conceive at all. IT’s so much better to do the doable. I have seen more far more pink oopsies conceived by people doing nothing to sway, than successful “perfect” pink sways.

:princess:Whatever goes wrong is NOT literally the worst thing that ever happened, we cannot prevent every bad thing from happening, nor should we try.

Boy moms are often “worst first” thinkers; despite this we tend to be cockeyed optimists (BBC NEWS | Health | Optimists more likely to have boys (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3534080.stm)) and convinced we can do anything if only we try hard enough. We are often shocked, surprised, and utterly dismayed when things do not go according to plan (even in the smallest of ways.) This might appear to be good for a pink sway, but it really isn’t because when things go awry, we Marthas dwell on it incessantly, going over the events again and again in our mind, looking for what we did wrong and thinking about how we can improve it in future. On a fundamental level we are convinced that when things go wrong it was due to our shortcomings and that next time we will do it better and will succeed.

We are like Captain Kirk taking the Kobayashi Maru test (for non-nerds who have no clue what I am referring to startrek kobayashi maru - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDg674aS-F4) and those of us who are nerds and know already, can just ogle Karl Urban for 2 min 5 sec). Marthas, like Captain Kirk, don’t believe in unpassable tests or no-win scenarios. We only believe in things we haven’t succeeded at yet. We’re obsessed by our “failures” and incessantly relive them in our minds in order to come up with a plan that will enable us to “succeed” the next go-round. Marthas are convinced there is always a way to reprogram the test and win.

But one of the absolute hardest lessons I have ever learned and something that I still struggle with daily, is that a LOT of life IS unwinnable. Many more times than that, by far the better option is to concede defeat and walk away because the psychic cost of the battle is NOT worth it, even if you CAN win. All too often, situations involving interpersonal conflict or the setting of unobtainable goals, quickly degrade into Pyrrhic victories Pyrrhic victory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory) where you literally have to scorch the earth itself and destroy what you love (friendship, marriage, your own sanity) in order to win.

We cannot force or trick the universe into giving us a daughter if only we do the “perfect” sway. By trying for the “perfect” sway we actually destroy what we desire and often many other things of value along the way. Swaying cannot and will not ever be a guarantee and if you need a guarantee, you need to go HT.

:princess:We live in a friendly universe.

The most important decision we make is whether we believe we live in a friendly or hostile universe. Albert Einstein

Boy moms tend to view the universe as unfriendly and thus feel a need to achieve a high level of control over every aspect of the environment. We evolved in a world of saber tooth tigers and dangers around every corner and in that world, being a control freak worried about everything was a benefit – especially to a mother of sons, who tend to play it a bit more extreme than girls do.

In the modern world, things just are not that dangerous any more. We live in the safest time in all of human history. Try to let go of irrational fears about things that are very unlikely. Marthas tend to be extremely anxious even to the point of OCD, because they have such a high need for control that they sometimes feel the need to repeatedly do things that are almost a bit ritualistic in order to protect against things that are not that threatening. Using hand sanitizer 20 times a day, feeding your kids only the absolute healthiest of foods, thinking that they will be snatched by sex predators if they are out of your sight for a moment – some people take sensible precautions too far and as we are finding, sometimes things that once seemed healthy like hand sanitizer, extreme low fat diets, and overprotective helicopter parenting, end up harmful in the long run anyway.

There are no guarantees in this world and lightning can strike anyone at any time. All control is an illusion. This idea is anathema to many boy moms but it’s true. You can do everything right and bad luck comes from the blue and strikes without warning. In the real world you DO need to pass the Kobayashi Maru test and acknowledge the existence of the no-win situation and look your worst fears directly in the face. There is a deep peace in realizing and acknowledging this. We ALL live, die, succeed, and fail by the Grace of God, Fate, or sheer dumb luck as is your belief system. Slathering on the hand sanitizer till your hands are chapped and bloody, or checking your pH every hour for 4 days till your VJ is in the same condition, may alleviate your anxiety in the short term but it does nothing for really keeping you safe or ensuring your sway will succeed, and they just create other problems that are worse over the long run.

:princess:If we are facing in the right direction, all we have to do is keep on walking.

If you’re swaying and you have done what you can do, the rest is in God’s/Fate’s/Lady Luck’s hands. Leave it there. Worrying over a sway like a dog with a bone accomplishes nothing. Poring over other people’s sways for hours a day trying to glean some magic bullet that will ensure success is pointless and worse it will undo otherwise good sways. There ARE NO MAGIC BULLETS. Spending months online every waking second trying to figure out how it all works, hunting for the pinkglittersparkledust that guarantees pink sway success is only going to raise testosterone (or whatever it is) through the roof. Meet my 4th son!!

People think that somehow they can go through all these sways and discover some untapped gem or larger trend, but literally thousands of other women have already combed through them! Or somehow if only they know how every food out there affects testosterone or blood sugar or minerals or pH, somehow they can come up with some combo of magic foods to eat that will give 100% success. THERE ARE NO MAGIC FOODS or combinations of foods. I and many others have been doing this full time for the better part of a decade and it just doesn’t work.

To have a great sway, make a plan as far in advance of your sway as is possible and stick to it. Let it become second nature to you. I have seen even the most anxious and swaycessed of individuals (and I can name names, starting with my own LOL) get girls by planning a sway out in advance and simply enacting it calmly as a lifestyle rather than a major military campaign, when the time came.

Don’t go barreling off the path that has worked for people in search of a better way. Although I did that myself, it only helped me get a daughter after years had passed, one failed sway, and a LOT of hard work on my part. And it was only because no one else was doing it and swaying just didn’t make any dang sense to me. This is my passion in life and I promise that I will continue to work as hard for your guys’ sways as I did for my own (harder). If there is something new out there, I will find it and share it with you guys but it’s never going to be a magic pink pill. If you’re disappointed that I cannot offer 100% success and tell you what herb to take to guarantee a DD, you should not be swaying and need to go HT.

If it was a simple matter of the right herb or the right food combination those clever old wives (or the thousands of women who are already on the Internet going over old sways and scientific studies with a fine tooth comb) would have figured it out already. As long as you’re on the right path, just stay the course and keep putting one foot in front of the other. It’s normal to worry and doubt, but don’t let those doubts trick you into leaving the path.

:princess: Be the reed in the wind.

You’ve probably heard the story about the forest in the wind – a big storm comes along and uproots the big trees, but the flexible reeds are able to bend when the wind blows and survive. That is what we “Marthas” need to aspire to in our day to day lives AND in our sways. Go with the flow, bend but don’t break. Do not panic if you find out your husband released when he was supposed to abstain. Don’t worry if you missed a day of SP. If these things could make or break sways it would be obvious by now. What DOES make and break good sways is white-knuckled maniacal control-freak tendencies running amok. This too shall pass. No matter what happens, you CAN handle it even if you don’t have the patented “Martha 10 Point Plan” to fall back on, and soon it will be just a distant memory.

For all you know, when things go wrong as they inevitably do, it may be God/Fate/Lady Luck’s way of ensuring you will have a SUCCESSFUL sway and not a dealbreaker in any way. Sways NEVER EVER EVER come down to one little thing like that, unless that one little thing is just sheer dumb luck. Have faith that things will work out at they should and don’t ignore the universe when it offers you what may actually be a helping hand.

We must be willing to let go of the life we’ve planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us. Joseph Campbell

:princess:You could have all the exact problems you have right now, only be living in the midst of the Black Plague.

Keep things in PERSPECTIVE, ladies. Of all the humans who have ever lived, being alive now is a pretty fricking sweet deal. The poorest among us are better off than the richest and most powerful people even just a hundred years ago. 250 years ago Thomas Jefferson’s wife died of mastitis. Less than 100 years ago, Calvin Coolidge’s son died from an infected blister on his toe. 50 years ago, Jaqueline Kennedy, gave birth to a son 5 weeks premature who died (as did most babies at the time born that early) who would almost certainly have lived had he been born today.

WE ARE SO RIDICULOUSLY LUCKY THAT WE SHOULD NEVER COMPLAIN ABOUT ANYTHING. We live in a time of miracles!!! Here’s the brilliant (and girl dad) Louis CK on the subject - warning contains quite a bit of cursing: Louis CK - Hilarious - Part 6 - Cell Phones And Flying - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk)

This is swaying, it’s not a life or death thing and the worst that can happen is that you get another little boy to hug on. If you can’t wrap your mind around that, and having another boy is the worst thing you can envision, you shouldn’t be swaying anyway and you need to pack it in and go HT.

:princess:You are not giving up, you are changing tactics.

If you aren’t getting pregnant and it’s been a couple months and the scale is dipping lower and lower, you NEED to start dropping things. But it’s NOT that you’re giving up things that were going to make your sway succeed, you’re giving up things that were preventing you from getting pregnant. If you cannot get pregnant, you have no chance at your desired gender anyway. Giving up is NOT quitting, it's letting go of something that didn't work for you.

Giving up and letting go is the most difficult, yet most important skill for Marthas to learn. Remember, Marys instinctively understand that in order to have strength for the things that REALLY truly matter, it’s important to pick your battles and reserve your energy, not break yourself to smithereens crashing up against the rocks of the impossible. Virtually every pink sway I have seen where people went on for 1 and 2 years not getting pregnant, has produced opposites. Why?? Either they go on so long doing perfect sways that they eventually give up and drop everything and often even sway blue just to be able to conceive at all, or else because they were clinging so tightly for so long, their T levels (or whatever it is that is swaying) were insanely high, or both.

Remember, it CANNOT be just diet and even just maternal condition, because for much of human existence everyone had a terrible diet and was in cruddy condition and if people hadn’t been having both boys and girls, the human race would have died out a long time ago. I know it feels foreign and strange to Marthas, but judiciously giving up on things that aren’t working for you in your sway, sooner rather than later, is actually GOOD for pink. Think of Jeannie and Sloane when Genghis Khan came to town!

Fighting hard to protect yourself and your relatives is good for your genes, but when captured and escape is not possible, giving up short of dying and making the best you can of the new situation is also good for your genes.
Keith Henson

:princess:This is a new lifestyle, not a short term event, and not a game that you can win.


Girl moms live a pink lifestyle every day of their lives and they really do not put much thought into it. It’s best to start your sway gradually so you can ease into it and make changes slowly over time. Don’t worry about shocking your body; while we considered that as a possibility a couple of years ago, it's not proved to be a successful tactic and slow and steady has yielded better results.

I believe that at least part of why we have seen better results with longer on diet is because the human brain eventually stops perceiving the sway as “the Great Sway of 2014” and raising T levels (or whatever it is that is swaying) in order to win a battle, find food, etc. In pink swaying, if you worry too much about winning the battles, you end up losing the war.

:princess:Focus on other things aside from swaying, without launching new and exciting projects.

If you’re a reader, start a new book series that will take a long time to get through (and if they involve romance and girly stuff, that’s great BUT at the same time, when I had GD I was not able to read or watch a lot of “girly” type things because they depressed me) . Suggestions - the True Blood books, Game of Thrones, Harry Dresden mysteries, or reread beloved books from your childhood like Anne of Green Gables, Nancy Drew, or Little House on the Prairie if you can stand them from a GD perspective. Lifetime and Hallmark romance movies are awesome if you like them.

If you’re a little more bloodthirsty like me LOL, try getting a subscription to Netflix or Amazon Prime and “binge watching” that TV series you have always meant to watch but never made the time before. If a show has several seasons, even better. Suggestions on Netflix – Supernatural, Buffy the Vampire Slayer (this show used to give me horrible GD though, just warning ya). On Amazon Prime, Justified, Veronica Mars (GD warning)
Stay busy in your day to day life and focus your attention on others instead of dwelling on that internal dialogue. Take the kids to the park, read stories and do craft projects with them (without getting hung up on the results please!!) go out to lunch with your mom or friends, date nights with DH (planned diet cheats are in order!) Go to church, temple, even if you don’t normally. Go outside and plant some flowers. Pamper yourself - get a relaxation massage, a new haircut, a mani/pedi.

Do NOT sit at home on the computer reading every post on Gender Dreaming and the other swaying sites. Don'y go over old sways till your eyes cross and your husband moves to Tahiti. Don’t make elaborate flow charts detailing a complex and elaborate sway. Don’t make long lists of pros and cons of various sway tactics. Don’t write up long detailed lists of the stresses in your life to send to atomic so she can tell you if they sway or not. You cannot control normal day to day life stresses regardless of how they sway, those things are out of your hands and worrying about how they sway does nothing but aggravate the situation. What you CAN control is sitting down for 5 hours to write up a detailed message for atomic. I will tell everyone right now, life stress is unavoidable, both boy and girl moms experience it on a daily basis, and what you should be concerned about for your sway, is the sitting down and writing it all out and desiring a quick fix (atomic’s reassurance) part. You are asking me something I simply cannot answer without a crystal ball ("Will my sway succeed") and doing it in such a way that you actually lower your odds of success.

Doing things you enjoy is great provided that they are not super detail oriented in nature. I would avoid things of a competitive nature such as video games, Pictionary, and entering the Pillsbury Bake Off; distractions that require large amounts of attention to detail like jigsaw puzzles, quilting/sewing, or crosswords, and limit watching/doing sports as much as is feasible (NO kickboxing, Taebo, karate!!!). Above all else, now is not the time to start big detail oriented swaying projects like temping/charting and obsessing over pH levels.

IF you really can’t let go of control, may I humbly suggest a Custom Plan? You will have me to take care of all the details for you.:hug2:

In closing, here are a couple of poems/prayers, one secular, one religious, that I think are good for TTC a girl.

Letting go doesn't mean we don't care. Letting go doesn't mean we shut down.
Letting go means we stop trying to force outcomes and make people behave.
It means we give up resistance to the way things are, for the moment.
It means we stop trying to do the impossible--controlling that which
we cannot--and instead, focus on what is possible--which usually means
taking care of ourselves. And we do this in gentleness, kindness,
and love, as much as possible. Melody Beattie

I surrender my anxiety and my sense of urgency. I allow God to guide me
in the pacing of my life. I open my heart to God's timing. I release my deadlines,
agendas, and stridency to the gentle yet often swift pacing of God. As I open
my heart to God's unfoldings, my heart attains peace. As I relax into God's timing,
my heart contains comfort. As I allow God to set the tone and schedule of my days,
I find myself in the right time and place, open and available to God's opportunities.

Julia Cameron

[atomic sagebrush]

The Monkey's Paw(s)

Taking a ride in the Wayback Machine to the year 2008, when I was trying to make sense of my own gender disappointment with my 3rd son and wrote these sister essays which fit in pretty well with the overall theme of this thread. While technically I was writing about letting go of the dream of a desired gender, they are equally applicable to letting go of other things - like the idea of having a "perfect" sway.


:LotsofLove: The Monkey's Paw, Part One :LotsofLove:

A surprisingly simple method is used to trap monkeys. Hunters take a hollow coconut and chain it to the ground, cutting a small hole in the top barely larger than a monkey's paw. Then they fill the coconut with delicious goodies and wait.

Before too long, a hapless monkey comes along. Once she discovers the yummy treats inside the coconut, the monkey reaches her little paw in and grabs the biggest handful she can. Her mouth is watering at the fragrance, her mind is filled with the anticipation of how wonderful her meal is about to be. But when she tries to pull her hand free from the coconut the monkey finds that she's trapped! The handful of goodies she's grabbed is too big and she can no longer get her paw free. It isn't long before the hunters return. But even then, faced with certain capture, the monkey still holds tight to her treasure. The hunters simply pick up the monkey, pop her into a cage, and carry her away from her life in the jungle forever.

To an onlooker, the solution is obvious. Why doesn't the monkey simply let go of the handful of food she's grabbed and run away? But the monkey has become so focused on hanging onto whatever is inside that coconut that she forgets all about the fruit in the trees nearby. She forgets the other monkeys, her friends and family, passing by, calling to her to join them. She forgets all the other delicious and wonderful things in the world, she forgets the joys of freedom and even forgets the potential danger until it's too late and everything is stripped away forever. All she can think about is how good life will be if only she can get that food to her lips.

Humans are a lot like monkeys. Sometimes we cling to something so tightly that it almost traps us. We turn our backs on everything good in the world, ignoring things that are ours for the asking, in favor of one elusive dream that we clutch at. We are so hungry for our treasure that we become stuck, trapped and desperate, while life moves on without us.

There are so many fantastic and lovely things in the world that we can have. There are relationships to forge, accomplishments to tackle, amazing things to see, read, and experience; a bellybusting smorgasbord of marvels and joy. But in order to reach for new dreams we must let go of the old dreams so our hands and heart are free to be filled with something new. It may hurt to unclench our fist when it's been in the same position for so long, but the pain grows less over time. Once we begin to use our muscles in a new way, the agony will diminish and we may even find ourselves stronger than we were before.

We only have a limited amount of time before our days on this planet end and we are carried away from this life forever. We can choose to let go and spend that time swinging free in the trees, discovering new wonders, having adventures with friends and family. Or we can choose to stay rooted in one spot, struggling after the unattainable, drowning in the dissatisfaction of lacking the one thing we cannot have. Just like the monkey, the idea that we may need to let go of the thing we don't have so we can be free to enjoy the things we do, is something that is easy for onlookers to realize but not so easy to accomplish.

I wish everyone wisdom and strength as we navigate life's jungles.

:LotsofLove: The Monkey's Paw, Part 2 :LotsofLove:

If you've never read the chilling tale The Monkey's Paw by WW Jacobs, it's here: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/12122/12122-h/12122-h.htm

There is a spooky old story about an enchanted monkey's paw with the ability to grant three wishes for whoever possesses it. The magic works, the wishes do come true, but at a horrible cost to the wisher.

This story has been told and retold countless times in several different forms, it's become such a part of our cultural heritage that it's even been spoofed on The Simpsons and Family Guy. Somehow we remember this old story when many others have been lost to the ages. It resonates so deeply with us because at its very core we realize there is something inherently true and universal about the tale; by dramatizing part of the human experience it makes us stop to consider that all of our wishes may have unforeseen consequences should they become reality.

It is natural and normal for people to have dreams, and it is natural and normal for us to strive to achieve those dreams. One of the most wonderful aspects of being young is that you still have every possibility spread out before you. But as the years pass by, we begin to realize that it is simply impossible for us to accomplish every goal we've ever had. There just isn't time for them all. So we begin to select the dreams that are the most realistic for us, that we are the best suited for and the most likely to achieve, and focus our energies upon them. If those dreams of being an Olympic athlete or Miss America are not really attainable for us, we turn to success in the workplace, in raising our families, and our other personal goals.

Just as with the Monkey's Paw, our wishes carry a price. In order to have the time to achieve the achievable, we must oftentimes give up on other things we really wanted. Some women may choose to accomplish less than they'd like in the workplace to have more time to raise a family. Others might have wanted more children but decide instead to focus more of their energy on their career. All mothers are familiar with buying things for yourself off the discount rack (or not at all) so you have more money for school clothes. A sensible haircut may not feel as sexy but it gives you more time to spend with your children before school. You may have always dreamed of seeing Paris, but your next vacation will be spent at Disneyland instead. This year, and next year, and the year after that as well. We cannot have, do, or be everything.

Accomplishing our dreams of having a child of a certain gender means we must give up something else. If we keep trying until we succeed, we may end up with more children than we wanted. If we go high tech, we are using money we may have preferred to spend on other things. If we adopt, we will have to spend a lot of time, emotional energy, and money on the process. For those of us who desperately want a child of a particular gender, even if we do get our dream child in the end, we WILL be missing out on something. Whether it's a same sex sibling for your child, experiencing the unique magic of a large, all-one-gender family, or having extra money and time for your children and yourself, these scenarios will cease to exist. If you have a girl, you won't have a boy, and vice versa. One dream may come true, but the other will disappear forever.

It hurts to give up on things we wanted even if what we get in exchange is something we believe we will value even more. This pain doesn't mean you shouldn't at least consider it.

No wish comes without consequences, both positive and negative. For us, for our lives, for our husbands, and for the children we already have, sometimes the best and wisest wish we might make on our monkey's paw is that we find acceptance and peace of mind with our families as they are here and now. It may be that the final stage of moving past Martha means that pink swayers eventually let go not only of their quest for a perfect sway, but even the idea of having another child altogether. And it may be that for blue swayers, moving past Mary may involve making a decision that you are going to put yourself first and do what is best for you personally, not your family or your culture. Giving up the dream doesn't make us quitters and it doesn't mean that we didn't "want it" as much as another person, who, in a different set of circumstances, made a different decision.

At some point, the dream of having a child of our desired gender is no longer worth the price that we ourselves and our family will have to pay to achieve it. If this is where your journey ends up and you end up moving on with your family as it is, this is just as valid and beautiful a decision as those who decide to continue trying. We celebrate and salute your choices.

[lovemy2blessings]

Wow, atomic awesome essay!!! Tanks for sharing:)

[coralsky]

Just fabulous, as always Atomic :)
I need to work on being a little bit more Mary than Martha ;)
Thanks so much for taking the time to write this x

[girliedreamz]

Ohmigod, you have described me (mom of 3 boys) to a TEE! Even down to the fact that I was stressed out watching the entire FBDO movie, thinking about all the things that were going to go wrong. Just take the car back, Cameron!! Lol! I’ve been called a ‘control freak’ since I was three years old, and it’s only in the last few years that I’ve started to be able to let things go another way than I want them to. But I’m still most comfortable and calm when I’m planning things down to the last detail. (You should see the trip I’m currently planning for my family to Disneyland. My family thinks I’m nuts. They can’t understand why I’d want to have the brand of milk we take with us for our re-planned breakfasts picked out ahead of time. Don’t they understand that if we have the wrong brand it could lead to catastrophic vacation disasters??!!)

I will say that with age I’ve made an effort to take the anxiety out of it for myself. I try not to get freaked out that I can’t control things, I just know that I am more comfortable if I can. Like, I’ve learned ot let the house be dirty sometimes, bit look at a pile of dishes and let it sit there for awhile while I play cars with my sons instead. It’s hard – and totally against my nature! – but in the long run, I can feel it is better for my overall anxiety level. And with some practice, there are things that I’ve actually stopped caring about having “my way.” (A little. See milk reference above.)

“So if you’re a Mary- or Martha-type please don’t despair that your sway is doomed to failure, you can reprogram yourself to some extent and it will really help your sway.”

I can’t wait to hear about the “re-programming” part! I’ll be checking back all weekend for more on this essay.

FABULOUS job, atomic! This is really interesting, well-researched stuff. I’m so impressed. (And was laughing throughout. Well researched and entertaining for the win!)

[BeadinMom]

Makes you really wonder if older moms have more girls b/c they've mellowed with age, too...combined with the fact that their fertility is probably decreased.

Geez...hoping that's how it all worked for me anyway!! I'll let y'all know in January!! lol

[atomic sagebrush]

girliedreamz I just wanted to let you know, I have a friend going to Disney who has hired a UHaul to bring along her daughters' custom-made, color coordinated Disney wardrobes that she has been organizing for a year now. 3 girls, one boy!! You can do this!!

[atomic sagebrush]

Makes you really wonder if older moms have more girls b/c they've mellowed with age, too...combined with the fact that their fertility is probably decreased.

Geez...hoping that's how it all worked for me anyway!! I'll let y'all know in January!! lol

I do totally think this. Life has a way of beating the Martha right out of ya and I would even go so far as to say raising boys can contribute to that!!! o.O

[girliedreamz]

girliedreamz I just wanted to let you know, I have a friend going to Disney who has hired a UHaul to bring along her daughters' custom-made, color coordinated Disney wardrobes that she has been organizing for a year now. 3 girls, one boy!! You can do this!!

ROFL! Okay, that so makes me feel better! (Both about being very Martha-esque and about my chances of having a girl!!)

[Soar]

Brilliant! Great work as usual!

[Becca.lms]

Holy crap you do a lot of work!

[myrainbowgirl]

girliedreamz I just wanted to let you know, I have a friend going to Disney who has hired a UHaul to bring along her daughters' custom-made, color coordinated Disney wardrobes that she has been organizing for a year now. 3 girls, one boy!! You can do this!!

I am thinking of at least 2 close friends who are like this, and both have girls (one is a GB mom, the other a GBG mom). The GBG mom recently took the cabinets off her kitchen walls, painted them, and put them back. She also MADE her own entry table with a jigsaw, raw materials, and her determination. She is such a planner, cleaner, organizer, and controller. Yet, 2 of her 3 are girls. Thing is, and I think this is a big key: she wasn't planning either of her daughters. She WAS planning her son.

Thinking I need to have an oops baby! Atomic, may be coming to you down the road for some advice on a non-sway sway. One that doesn't allow me to get obsessed, because I'm really not trying. Hehe!!

[rainbowflower]

lol maybe I need to dig out the CBT exercises again to make my anxious or repetitive brain learn to be quiet ;)

thank you for these, I've only had a chance to skim read these so far, but what you're writing seems to click as being correct in my head. At the same time, it makes me think that really much more is out of our control than we thought so in some ways maybe I'm already closer to girl-mum-thoughts than I thought :)

BTW I think in this country and society girls are actually seen as the "preferred" gender, it's boys here who are portrayed more negatively on the whole

[Dreamofpink]

Amazing, as always Atomic! :bowdown: Thank you sooo much for this fab essay, it was just what I needed to read. I was cringing the wholeway through though as I am such a Martha! Especially at Christmas time when I upset my family by trying to do far too much, homemade presents/food etc. Ds3 will knock that right out of me this year being due just beforehand though! :wink:

I know & accept that my need to control my future was the biggest reason why ds3 is coming to join us. Heck, it pains me to say that my desire to home-school even has an element of 'Martha-ism' about it too! I don't trust the system in the UK to do a good enough job.....

I truly believed that if I worked at swaying hard enough IT WOULD WORK - despite your warnings of the kitchen sink sway Atomic. I approached it all the wrong way, more like preparing for an exam rather than a roll of the dice.

I can't wait to read the rest of this essay on how to become more Mary-like. I think I needed ds3 to wake me up to the fact that I can't control everything - and to learn that that's no bad thing. Beadin, I agree age & experience most probably does have something to do with it too :wink:

Thank you again Atomic :heart:

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[girliedreamz]

I truly believed that if I worked at swaying hard enough IT WOULD WORK - despite your warnings of the kitchen sink sway Atomic. I approached it all the wrong way, more like preparing for an exam rather than a roll of the dice.

I can't wait to read the rest of this essay on how to become more Mary-like. I think I needed ds3 to wake me up to the fact that I can't control everything - and to learn that that's no bad thing.
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I completely feel this way about my ds3. He's brought a sense of calm to my life and has taught me to just let some of the small stuff go. (Some. I'm still so Martha.) Maybe it's his personality - he is a super calm little boy - or maybe just that with three we're outnumbered so we CAN'T control everything no matter how hard I try. But I truly feel that even though I was on IG swaying pink, he was meant to be the boy he is.

Now, I just hope I'm not meant to have 5 more boys before I get my girl, or we're going to be broke! :)

[rainbowflower]

I know & accept that my need to control my future was the biggest reason why ds3 is coming to join us. Heck, it pains me to say that my desire to home-school even has an element of 'Martha-ism' about it too! I don't trust the system in the UK to do a good enough job.....

I truly believed that if I worked at swaying hard enough IT WOULD WORK - despite your warnings of the kitchen sink sway Atomic. I approached it all the wrong way, more like preparing for an exam rather than a roll of the dice.

I can't wait to read the rest of this essay on how to become more Mary-like.
no, luck is the biggest factor for most of us on here!

[atomic sagebrush]

:agree: above all else luck is the number one factor in why pink sways succeed or fail. Blue swayers do have much more control but even then it still comes down to luck in the end.

[Dreamofpink]

:agree: above all else luck is the number one factor in why pink sways succeed or fail. Blue swayers do have much more control but even then it still comes down to luck in the end.

Aaaah!!! Luck is something I can't control :wink: Hope Lady Luck is on my side next time then :)

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[2lovelyboys]

Yet again fantastic read!

I am certainly Jeannie/Martha! Although technically my sway failed and I am expecting DS3, I was starting to feel calmer.......interesting?!

I tried really hard to remain relaxed about my sway and I think to an extent I was, however, I have a very comprehensive diary (that I would be lost without), strict daily routine for my boys. I watch films making comments like 'this is never going to end well', ' wouldn't allow my boys to do that' etc.....

I do agree that all the excessive organising can be stressful raising my anxiety levels, would happily be more like Mary although may find letting go hard .........maybe DS3 will help me let go.........

[Becca.lms]

I'm definitely this type also. BUT, now since I've been back to work for a month I've had less time to be annoying old me.
For instance I used to be OCD clean. Spotless house. Now I work 9.5 hour shifts until 1 am, get up with Ezra three times a night, and up at 7 am with them. So I have no energy to clean. And I barely care. I'm like meh! My husband can do it.
Would that change sway?

[Cauliflower]

OMG! It is after the hen story I really understood it!
My MIL have one daughter and 3 sons, and she is crazy about looking after them and feeding them constantly!
My mom 3 girls and she is not obsessed by this at all, she is much more relaxed.

Thank you Atomic again for great essay!!!

[sbowman]

This was really hard to read. I was planning to have my first attempt this month, but now I'm not sure I should. I know I haven't really changed personality wise. And I do insist that my DS drinks organic milk...just crazy things like that. The only thing that makes me feel better is that my DH is totally a Sloane/Mary type, so maybe I can use him as a model...He is completely laid back and could care less if I clean the house or even get out of bed.


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[The Anchor]

I know I've mentioned this before...but :bowdown:

[atomic sagebrush]

This was really hard to read. I was planning to have my first attempt this month, but now I'm not sure I should. I know I haven't really changed personality wise. And I do insist that my DS drinks organic milk...just crazy things like that. The only thing that makes me feel better is that my DH is totally a Sloane/Mary type, so maybe I can use him as a model...He is completely laid back and could care less if I clean the house or even get out of bed.


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:) gut instinct here, it seems a little bit "martha" to say, OMG I have to now postpone and come up with a plan to relax myself and change my personality!!! (remember Jeannie trying to change her name to impress Charlie SHeen??) You can't change your personality, it's more like you just mellow out a little bit and it's not something that you MAKE happen. You can't make it happen. It just happens. What you can do is try to practice acceptance and that can help.

Be like Sloane - say, this is who I am, it's ok, things are cool, life is good, no matter what I can't really lose here. If you're really obsessing over it, and you ahve the time to spare because you're young enough, flip a coin and just do what the coin says (no reflipping if you don't like the outcome!!!)

[2lovelyboys]

[QUOTE=atomic sagebrush;459840]:) gut instinct here, it seems a little bit "martha" to say, OMG I have to now postpone and come up with a plan to relax myself and change my personality!!! (remember Jeannie trying to change her name to impress Charlie SHeen??) You can't change your personality, it's more like you just mellow out a little bit.

This was also my first reaction, never thought of it as 'Martha' need to work on acceptance I think, not everything is within my control (although I try) :)

[sbowman]

Wow, it's worse than I thought! I don't know if I can do this. I mean...I just don't know! I'll be stalking this thread for the rest of the essay. :( But yes my first instinct is to tackle it like a problem. "Ok, I need to relax more. So I'll google how to relax, and I'll watch my DH and try to behave more like him..." Haha.


:) gut instinct here, it seems a little bit "martha" to say, OMG I have to now postpone and come up with a plan to relax myself and change my personality!!! (remember Jeannie trying to change her name to impress Charlie SHeen??) You can't change your personality, it's more like you just mellow out a little bit and it's not something that you MAKE happen. You can't make it happen. It just happens. What you can do is try to practice acceptance and that can help.

Be like Sloane - say, this is who I am, it's ok, things are cool, life is good, no matter what I can't really lose here. If you're really obsessing over it, and you ahve the time to spare because you're young enough, flip a coin and just do what the coin says (no reflipping if you don't like the outcome!!!)




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[2lovelyboys]

Sbowman, your post made me chuckle as I also approached this like a problem and had the same thoughts of googling it for solutions, very Martha! :) no wonder I have boys! Any ideas ................? :)

[Dreamofpink]

Sbowman, your post made me chuckle as I also approached this like a problem and had the same thoughts of googling it for solutions, very Martha! :) no wonder I have boys! Any ideas ................? :)

Exactly how I approached it too. Eek! I even bought two books on acceptance therapy. I've started reading one but have kind of lost my enthusiam for the 'project' - what hope is there for me?! I think I need to just enjoy every minute with my boys & I'm sure ds3 will help me stop living in my own head so much. I think I'm over the idea of another kitchen-sink sway now. It didn't work & I'm so glad I got the chance to make that mistake & still hopefully have another chance left. Babies are great at keeping us in the present. I can't wait to.meet our new little boy & am just tired of GD now. Can't wait to start over in a new town with a new baby where no-one knows of my GD!

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[2lovelyboys]

Dream, am so with you! I have bought books on meditation, how funny :) I have accepted a DS3 and am getting excited, I think because I am becoming more positive the responses I am receiving are better than I expected. But like you I feel I have learnt a valuable lesson this time and am hoping to learn from it!

Seems us boy mums have a lot in common! Am finding all this very educational! Am going to enjoy watching the stats spreadsheet over the next few months!

[atomic sagebrush]

bear with me, I'm trying!! ;)

[mollisol]

Thanks for the great essay. But how do I become more Martha?? lol. I think for the little things I'm very Martha, but when it comes to the big things, I'm pretty laid back and figure life will just work itself out. Hopefully luck will be on my side.

[rainbowflower]

I think the point is that some things you *can't* change... you just have to go for it anyway

although things like CBT or trying to change your outlook (NOT change your needs, just to put thngs in perspective) can make life easier to live your life in the long term rather than doing it for a sway

[atomic sagebrush]

Thanks for the great essay. But how do I become more Martha?? lol. I think for the little things I'm very Martha, but when it comes to the big things, I'm pretty laid back and figure life will just work itself out. Hopefully luck will be on my side.

Blue swayers CAN become more Martha - start by taking on projects (like swaying) where you are running the show! I think swaying itself can sway blue because it's a big complex project with a lot riding on it. If you like cooking or crafting now is the time to do that (but be sure you are able to finish what you start)

I also recommend things like video games - one of my favorites is the Pokemon games for Gameboy, because they are very meticulous with lots of planning and attention to detail, and there's lots of battling in it. Candy crush, Farmville, the Sims would be good. Or in the real world, card games, puzzles, anything that YOU enjoy that requires some planning and forethought in order to succeed at it.

[atomic sagebrush]

I think the point is that some things you *can't* change... you just have to go for it anyway

although things like CBT or trying to change your outlook (NOT change your needs, just to put thngs in perspective) can make life easier to live your life in the long term rather than doing it for a sway

This is true for pink swayers but blue swayers can try to reprogram themselves by taking on challenges, competing, and starting detail-oriented projects.

[mollisol]

I actually run my own craft business, would be awesome if that swayed blue for me. :happy: Maybe I'm a better mix than I thought. I guess my first thought was that I'm incredibly laid back with schedule in regard to my kids (other than at bedtime). I was kind of freaking out last night, so thanks so much for the extra info, I feel better about things now.

[sbowman]

Thanks for the great essay. But how do I become more Martha?? lol. I think for the little things I'm very Martha, but when it comes to the big things, I'm pretty laid back and figure life will just work itself out. Hopefully luck will be on my side.

Do you have a Pinterest?


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[aidansmum]

That was awesome! I am a bit more Mary than Martha, but been feeling very relaxed lately. I am on low-dose prozac though, maybe that's why anti-depressants may sway PINK???

[atomic sagebrush]

I actually run my own craft business, would be awesome if that swayed blue for me. :happy: Maybe I'm a better mix than I thought. I guess my first thought was that I'm incredibly laid back with schedule in regard to my kids (other than at bedtime). I was kind of freaking out last night, so thanks so much for the extra info, I feel better about things now.

Please don't get too hung up on details or comparisons - I am not into schedules either but I do a lot of plotting and planning in other arenas. Everyone is different - people are a lot more deep and complex than movies or parables can really show! :)

[atomic sagebrush]

That was awesome! I am a bit more Mary than Martha, but been feeling very relaxed lately. I am on low-dose prozac though, maybe that's why anti-depressants may sway PINK???

Yes I do wonder that myself. The "official" reason has something or other to do with pH but I wonder if it's more unplugging the hamster wheel that a lot of us boy-moms have running in our heads all the time.

[black&gold]

So I only made it through the first essay, but I have to say I definitely think there is something else besides just diet that is swaying. As my DH always points out - if it were 100% just diet, all the woman in each individual african tribe would have the same gender as they all eat the same things and are all extremely malnourished. I've gone through every possible person I know and their diet trying to see if their childrens genders match up and some certainly do, but others it just really doesn't work and it's driving me insane - yah, probably why I have boys!!

I feel like diet wise I should have a girl as I found I had to take things too far on the LE diet to make a difference because I was already naturally thin, eating way more empty carbs than good etc. BUT, I am crazy control freak and I think the maternal dominance theory definitely describes me.

Now for all my girl mom friends who are on anti-anxiety medication... I don't understand why they have girls as their the same... maybe it's the medication!

[atomic sagebrush]

antidepressants/antianxiety meds do sway pink. see post above

[aidansmum]

Now for all my girl mom friends who are on anti-anxiety medication... I don't understand why they have girls as their the same... maybe it's the medication!

I certainly hope so as I am on medication, very low dose, but hopefully it will work towards my sway. :fingers:

[stephk]

Wow - what everyone else said - thank you so much for writing these essays, you are brilliant. I will be re-reading them again many times and coming back for the follow ups. In fact I have almost been in tears reading about myself - wow wow wow. I pray to be more like Sloane and Mary and not Jeannie and Martha!! (But may as well change my name to Jeannie or Martha ha ha)

LOVE the essays thank you again.

I have time to try and mellow out before my TTC attempt without over thinking it :)

[mrs magoo]

my grandmother is a matriach/control freak/anxious if things dont go to her plan/ type A and she had 3 daughters. exception i guess.

i do see a lot of people including myself fit your theories here though.

[black&gold]

I've recently seen a trend in a lot of girls having what their mother did - in the same order too. At first I thought it was coincidence, but now I'm seeing a lot of people have that.. wonder if there's anything to it.. or it's all just a fluke?

[atomic sagebrush]

It's just a fluke, I haven't seen that happening. Not true for me anyway or anyone in my family.

I would say the trends I've seen have been when there are three daughters and two of them (one is usually the oldest) have all boys and then the other (the one who is a bit of a neer do well) has all girls, and then when there is a brother and sister and the brother is a little bit of a screwup and then the sister has all boys. I do think there can be something in your family makeup that can make you more Mary/Martha and I will go into that in another essay.

[atomic sagebrush]

my grandmother is a matriach/control freak/anxious if things dont go to her plan/ type A and she had 3 daughters. exception i guess.

i do see a lot of people including myself fit your theories here though.

There are physical/dietary reasons why people can have boys/girls too and the dad also brings something to the table. These are just general trends we are looking at. Also, it can be a little bit problematic to look at a woman we know later in life and know anything about where she was when she conceived her kids - I think most women change a lot between their younger days and their "matriarch" years. :)

[Cauliflower]

It's just a fluke, I haven't seen that happening. Not true for me anyway or anyone in my family.

I would say the trends I've seen have been when there are three daughters and two of them (one is usually the oldest) have all boys and then the other (the one who is a bit of a neer do well) has all girls, and then when there is a brother and sister and the brother is a little bit of a screwup and then the sister has all boys. I do think there can be something in your family makeup that can make you more Mary/Martha and I will go into that in another essay.

Wow, that is so true for us! We are 3 sisters, I have 2 boys, sister in the middle has 2 girls and youngest has a boy (she has PCOS)! I did not understand "the one who is a bit of a neer do well" ???

[atomic sagebrush]

A "neer do well" is the one in the family who is sometimes a little more prone to causing dramatic situations than the others. It means "never do well", a bit of a troublemaker who doesn't live up to their obligations in the family (and I hope no one is offended by this, it's just what I have seen personally and 98% of my observations are coming from the sisters who had all boys so I may be getting skewed data. ;))

[Cauliflower]

A "neer do well" is the one in the family who is sometimes a little more prone to causing dramatic situations than the others. It means "never do well", a bit of a troublemaker who doesn't live up to their obligations in the family (and I hope no one is offended by this, it's just what I have seen personally and 98% of my observations are coming from the sisters who had all boys so I may be getting skewed data. ;))

Actually that part does not fit, bcz she is the most dutyful and intelligent of us all. Unfortunately she has had a lot of marital problems, and bcz of that been worried, depressed, skinny and not gained any weight after marriage :(
I am the troublemaker ;) LOL, not entirely true...but maybe a little...

[atomic sagebrush]

:agree: there are so many possible combinations of diet/lifestyle/personality that we really can't construct a rule that will apply to every person, every time! I can totally see how a very dutiful and responsible person would find themselves in that situation. :)

[black&gold]

It's just a fluke, I haven't seen that happening. Not true for me anyway or anyone in my family.

I would say the trends I've seen have been when there are three daughters and two of them (one is usually the oldest) have all boys and then the other (the one who is a bit of a neer do well) has all girls, and then when there is a brother and sister and the brother is a little bit of a screwup and then the sister has all boys. I do think there can be something in your family makeup that can make you more Mary/Martha and I will go into that in another essay.

Mhmm, interesting! I assumed it couldn't be anything "genetic" just noticed it recently but it's easily coincidence!

Thinking of the skinny moms thing and boys, I wonder if swaying has better results with people who have a bit of weight to lose. I had zero weight to lose and the moment I lost even 1-2lbs my ovulation went wacky so my body is used to ovulating at a really low BMI. Since I feel like my body is already used to ovulating in a semi-declined state (I eat pretty LE with lots of empty carbs, minimal veggies etc., don't take vitamins etc.) I wonder if swaying would have the same effect on me as someone who could lose 5-10lbs. Anyways, I don't even know why it matters since I am totally sure we are done so I won't be able to sway again but it's all so interesting I just still think about things for fun :)

[atomic sagebrush]

Well, I somewhat hesitate to answer this cause I worry it will make people freak out, but yes I do think swaying via diet may be ~somewhat~ more successful for people who have some weight to lose. But I don't know WHY that is - I'm not convinced that it's necessarily weight loss. It may be that they can be on diet longer. Or that they were able to sway more strictly because they didn't have to drop a bunch of stuff because they were losing too much weight. or it may be something else entirely along the lines of, if you had boys at a low weight, you may be more of a Jeannie/Martha to start OUT with regardless of diet. Remember, the lady who can have a boy (due to cues of social dominance rather than food intake) when the rest of the tribe is in a famine, will have her genes be much more likely to survive than others.

[black&gold]

Well, I somewhat hesitate to answer this cause I worry it will make people freak out, but yes I do think swaying via diet may be ~somewhat~ more successful for people who have some weight to lose. But I don't know WHY that is - I'm not convinced that it's necessarily weight loss. It may be that they can be on diet longer. Or that they were able to sway more strictly because they didn't have to drop a bunch of stuff because they were losing too much weight. or it may be something else entirely along the lines of, if you had boys at a low weight, you may be more of a Jeannie/Martha to start OUT with regardless of diet. Remember, the lady who can have a boy (due to cues of social dominance rather than food intake) when the rest of the tribe is in a famine, will have her genes be much more likely to survive than others.

Interesting! I think if you have some weight to lose, even if it's only 5lbs but your cycles all stay normal then that's a huge benefit. I always wondered if I were to have just stuck to 1800 calories of really bland LE food and not lost weight to keep cycles normal if it would even make my body sense any sort of health decline since I'm already at a very low BMI. I definitely remember wishing I had more weight and room to play with as far as the diet and extreme exercise goes, but I really felt limited because losing anything made O mess up.

I definitely must be more 'martha' lol!

[Mabel_79]

Hi Atomic,
Just wondering about the exercise thing. I was about 8st7, pretty fit and slim, when I started swaying and I used to run twice a week. During my LE sway I lost weight- only about 4 or 5lbs, but for me that was quite a lot and I looked very skinny. I also upped my running.
Do you think all this running which kept my body muscley, upped my testosterone levels and that's why my sway failed?

I'm also worried about the part of the study where she suggests that a woman's womb is more favourable to a certain gender. I miscarried last year after a sway and due to the completely different way I felt during those 12 weeks, was sure it was a girl. Could my body have rejected it due to the gender and does that make my chances of PDG working lower? So confused right now.
Despite my husbands insistance that this is our last I feel I can't give up on the dream just yet- I just feel I need to know where we went wrong.

[atomic sagebrush]

Interesting! I think if you have some weight to lose, even if it's only 5lbs but your cycles all stay normal then that's a huge benefit. I always wondered if I were to have just stuck to 1800 calories of really bland LE food and not lost weight to keep cycles normal if it would even make my body sense any sort of health decline since I'm already at a very low BMI. I definitely remember wishing I had more weight and room to play with as far as the diet and extreme exercise goes, but I really felt limited because losing anything made O mess up.

I definitely must be more 'martha' lol!

Well, we have studies in other animals that show calories of carbs and higher intake of Omega 6 fats (versus cals of protein and higher intake of Omega 3/saturated fats) even when calories were kept equal, swayed pink.

Calorie intake is only ONE way we can send a signal to our body that times aren't as good as they were. I think by changing the makeup of our diets from more balanced to disproportionally "poor folks" food, we can send that signal even if a person eats identical to the amount of cals they were eating before.

Now, I also happen to think that if you eat "poor folks" foods AND lose a bit of weight, that's even better as long as you keep ovulating when you do it. And if you do that AND try to unplug that mental hamster wheel, better still.

[atomic sagebrush]

Hi Atomic,
Just wondering about the exercise thing. I was about 8st7, pretty fit and slim, when I started swaying and I used to run twice a week. During my LE sway I lost weight- only about 4 or 5lbs, but for me that was quite a lot and I looked very skinny. I also upped my running.
Do you think all this running which kept my body muscley, upped my testosterone levels and that's why my sway failed?

I'm also worried about the part of the study where she suggests that a woman's womb is more favourable to a certain gender. I miscarried last year after a sway and due to the completely different way I felt during those 12 weeks, was sure it was a girl. Could my body have rejected it due to the gender and does that make my chances of PDG working lower? So confused right now.
Despite my husbands insistance that this is our last I feel I can't give up on the dream just yet- I just feel I need to know where we went wrong.

I really don't like analyzing swyas that produced opposites. I think the exercise stats have been pretty good and I do not believe that anyone who is losing weight on a lower protein diet physically CAN be building muscle with intense exercise. If you lose weight, you lose muscle, that's how it goes. Now can you make your T levels go up from other things, absolutely you can and your body will make testosterone out of the last little dribble of fat you have on your body if it thinks you need it. But we don't even KNOW that testosterone is swaying. It's just one theory and it may be something else entirely or a lot of something elses. You may have gotten to 90-10 girl to boy ratio and then just pulled the short straw. I understand that you want to know what went "wrong" (regardless of how bad it feels right now, a healthy baby is NEVER wrong) but not I nor anyone else will ever be able to tell you that. :heart:

There is NO evidence that a woman's womb is more favorable to one gender over another. She is just guessing about stuff and I don't think you should let one person's guessing bring you any heartache. We have seen TONS of women some of whom with 6 boys go onto have HT daughters. There are women on this site who had 8 boys and had daughters naturally. There is no way that if swaying really works, that it would allow you to conceive a particular gender and then miscarry it. If swaying works, it makes you more likely to conceive the baby with the best shot of survival, period, from conception on. Eggs are too "biologically expensive" to waste and as risky as pregnancy used to be (even miscarriages), genes that caused anyone to conceive a baby only to lose it months later for no good reason, would have been culled from the gene pool a long time ago. Those genes would be at such a huge disadvantage that there is no way that they'd have been able to compete with anyone who did not have such genes.

You simply can't tell the gender of your baby from pregnancy symptoms. i know you probably aren't going to believe me but it's true. We have done dozens of polls and there are people both with all boys and all girls with dramatically different pg symptoms for same gender pg, and then there are people with diff. gender babies and identical pregnancies - there is NO rhyme or reason to it at all.

I KNOW it's so so so so hard to get thru. Please believe me when i say that. I am thinking of you and I promise you it does get easier with time.

[Precious3]

WOW! This is extremely interesting! Thank you for doing all this research and analyzing!

This is more of a hindsight analysis for me, as I am already pregnant with my last after 2 sons and it was an oops so I didn't get a chance to sway at all. Which I'm learning might be a good thing after all!

I'm hard to categorize as either Mary or Martha as for things that I don't care (like housekeeping and routines) I'm extremely laid back to the point of negligence. I actually had to hire a weekly housekeeper as I just can't get myself to do things I'm not interested in.

BUT when I'm passionate about something, whether a project or a certain topic I tend to obsess over it and research to the point of compulsiveness and obsess over every little detail, thinking non stop about it, planning and strategizing. As a result, I have periods when I'm really laid back and periods where I'm euphoric over something.

And YES, both times when I conceived I was in an obsessive period. With my first I was obsessing over conceiving, which I did the second month, but not before extensive research and a trip to the OB who confirmed through an ultrasound I had just ovulated and I did my BD homework like crazy. With my second I wasn't planning on it, but I was in the middle of launching a project (I'm a work at home Internet entrepreneur) and I was euphoric about it, I could feel the testosterone!

With this one I do have a sliver of hope it is a girl. Although I was in the middle of a "project" it wasn't so adrenaline filled, I was doing a cleanse - vegan diet. Not sure if the diet helped for swaying, although I did lose like 12 pounds in 5 weeks (about 10% of my weight) it was a nutrient dense diet (lots of veggies and fruits).

Anyway, after what I've read here I think I accidentally had my best shot, if had planned on it I wouldn't have been able to stop myself from obsessing over it.

And if I do have a third son I'm happy thinking that it is my personality which makes me more apt to raising them well!

Thank you!


Me (29) and DH (30)
DS1 - 2010
DS2 - 2012
Expecting #3 (and last!) by March-April 2014

[atomic sagebrush]

Mary/Martha cannot be strictly categorized the way you're thinking of it. Some people are not into housework (me too) but spend lots of effort and energy controlling other arenas of life. It's not that we are all 'cookie cutter' personality types, it's at the most fundamental level, a feeling that we MUST control every aspect of what we believe matters. Personally, I don't think a clean house matters to my level of happiness or personal well-being, so I don't get real worked up over that, but I do feel like owning a huge collection of children's books IS important, so I have a hell of a lot of stacks of dusty books sitting around LOL.

Additionally some of us are so much "martha" that we bite off more than we can chew and end up seeming like chaotic disasters because we want to do and control SO much that we can't do anything at all ever. Perfectionism can be paralyzing and make it appear like a person is lazy or unorganized, when really they're not, it's just that they're trying to do so much that they can't do anything well.

Nutshell version - Marthaism can take many forms and it's gonna be different for everyone because we are unique individuals. It's the need to control that I think is what matters, not the subject matter of one's desire to control. :)

[SweetLily]

Oh dear heavens, THAT'S why I have 3 sons!!! ROFL!

I'm a martha!!!! I need to have more fun!

Thanks atomic!

[prettyflamingo]

I have a question please atomic. I have three boys, the first conceived naturally, no swaying, pregnant first month of ttc, followed by a failed pgd at HRC, followed by a miscarriage (conceived naturally following the In Gender girl diet) followed by twin boys conceived via normal ivf in London as I couldn't fall pregnant for a year after the miscarriage. My question is that I agree with the hypothesis you've put forward, and can see why I got my first boy. What I don't understand is how I got another two boys via ivf when they were conceived outside my body so were not really influenced by my character. We only had two fertilise out of five, and put them both back and both stuck. I am now pregnant again via ivf and scared to death it's another boy. Do you think I have any hope of a girl? Please help. Thank you.

[atomic sagebrush]

You always have hope of a girl!!

Even if gender ratio were simply a flip of a coin, there would be some people who would get all boys and others who got all girls just from sheer dumb luck. It's statistically possible to get 10 heads or 10 tails in a row and quite easy to get three. So Lady Luck always has her role to play here.

Additionally, there may be something to the idea that either sperm or egg is somehow primed to be more favorable to one gender or the other or that for reasons we can't even guess at, one gender just doesn't want to develop after fertilization. I don't feel like I have the quality of evidence to support this factually (I think I mentioned this in the essay but Grant did a study that seemed to possibly support this, but then some other researchers couldn't repeat her findings) BUT I do know quite a few RE's believe in the idea. That doesn't mean you can't get a girl, because there are people even with pretty "blue" gender splits who do get XX as well, just not as many.

[prettyflamingo]

Thank you for taking the time to reply Atomic. I think what you say makes good sense, even though it hurts. I will always wonder if I lost the perfect XX at HRC because my body can't support girls, and if the baby I lost at 11 weeks was a girl. I seem to have no trouble growing boys so will just assume this is another boy until proven otherwise.

[atomic sagebrush]

It is totally understandable to wonder, but there is NO evidence whatsoever that anyone's body can't carry a particular gender and especially where girls are concerned. 140-160 boys are conceived for every 100 girls and so many more boys than girls are miscarried that the number drops to 105-100 by birth.

There are rare genetic conditions that do make it more difficult for people to have SONS, not daughters. full explanation here: http://genderdreaming.com/forum/swaying-studies-scientific-research/824-you-cant-carry-baby-gender.html

[prettyflamingo]

Thank you atomic. I'll keep praying.

[Houseofblue]

WOW. I am EXACTLY what you described boy moms as being :/ I actually really do have true OCD and hypochondria and feel the need to control everything b/c I am always worried some disaster is going to happen, I have horrible anxiety all the time. :( My mom (who has GGB) doesn't let anything get to her, she seriously doesn't worry about ANYTHING!!
How the heck do I change this? Go on meds maybe lol?

[stephk]

Any ladies with access to the Film4 channel (I am in the UK so I guess its a UK channel?) - Ferris Buellers Day off is on tonight at 11.30pm. I am taping it as I have never seen it and I am curious after reading this fantastic essay!!! Essential homework :) thought I would share in case anyone else hasn't seen it and they have the channel.

Can the martha in me please go on holiday for a while, thanks :)

[Rosie85]

I honestly feel doomed in my sway now. I am total type A, a worry wart, stressball, control freak. ugh.

[atomic sagebrush]

Trust me girls, if I can get a girl, anyone can.

I know I need the follow up of what to do about all this and just generally left everyone in a state of perpetual alarm o.O

[Rosie85]

LOL! Yes I am in a state of alarm! HELP! No I'm Kidding...kind of :p

Seriously though I have been controlling as long as I can remember and not sure how I could ever let it go. I have always wanted to be the laid back go with the flow kind of gal but it is so hard. outside of the home when I am with friends in a relaxed atmosphere I feel I do pretty good, but at home where my input matters...that is a whole other story, oh my. I wear the pants in the family, I am man of the house, I would like to blame my DH for this. ha

[stephk]

Well I watched the film and yes, I am definitely more like Jeannie than Sloane!! What can you do really, I really wish I was more relaxed and go with the flow but for some reason i will often find something to moan about. WHY I don't know. It would annoy me if my brother was faking like that but I would have a go at him and then get over it. I wouldn't stew over it forever and ever but at the same time I would still be annoyed even if for a little while. I have to say though I accept myself for what I am because I know I have tried to be more relaxed for years, because DH is more relaxed and go with the flow and it annoys him sometimes when I am not. So it hasn't been just for swaying purposes. I have changed a little but I still have my (many) moments. The thing with me, I just need to have a moan or cry or whatever and then I get over it and move on. If i try to suppress anything it just ends up worse. So I just have to accept it and move on. I am not trying to make anyone else change so why do I need to. If this can't make me more relaxed and a better person (the way I see it) then nothing will and I really have tried trust me.

Like others, I do feel a little doomed in the sway because of this but at the same time, I have accepted that this is the way it is. I have spent time overthinking it and for now have made peace with it. Thats not to say I won't overthink it again mind :)

[Lolo]

Lol! Same as me, my husband is a Mary and I am defo Martha!! My one son we clash he's a Martha my new baby boy is a Mary!! and defo know a few Mary and Martha mums makes so much sense, atomic can you change my name above to Mary so I can take on her energy lol! X

[Lolo]

Right my homework! here comes the Martha side of me again!! Lol! To watch ferris buellers day off haven't seen it for many years as a kid i watched it but can't remember it, Atomic can I ask you or any other of the ladies on here can you suggest some really girlie films to watch for us to get into our chilled out girlie side lol! Thanks in advance :think::pray::wink:

[maria02]

I am more definitely a Martha/ Jeannie than a Mary/ Sloane, so there's hope for all boy mums wanting a girl there! I think my DD was a result of diet not this.


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[Tomgirl]

Lol I seem to be an exception in many ways. I have 3 boys all surprises, I have never been OCD about anything. I'm definitely more like Sloane, my attitude is whatever will be will be. The one aspect of my personality that I do think sways boy is I am super competitive...I always go 150% when it comes to sports but absolutely nothing else. It's the reason I stopped exercising cause I do compete with myself to get better, stronger, faster. So if I'm not working out then I am what I am.

Also I was a single mom for 10 years and did find that once my now husband moved in I did have some control issues over letting him handle roles within the house and with the kids as I had always done that. Now I have a sense of security and help that I never had so hopefully that will help my swaying pink.

I am the one in my family of 3 sisters that has made decisions that created drama and they saw as making mistakes and screwing up.. I've always just thought of it as I will try and if I fail I will pick myself up and keep going, but I think you said that trait sways blue? So I guess there are many factors that swayed blue for me. I'm just not full of anxiety or obsessed with controlling much. My husband is the neat freak always organizing. My motto is I won't look back on my death bed thinking I wish I would've cleaned more! :)

[Tomgirl]

Lol on second thought I have the general attitude of "anything you can do I can do better" which I'm sure sways blue! Darnit!!! :) My only hope is that I may think that but I wont actually want to put the effort in to prove that! haha

[atomic sagebrush]

TG I have noticed a definite trend where in families of all girls, particularly 3 girl families, they seem to have a propensity of little dudes! Not sure how or why but it's seemed to be the case for many families where 2 of the 3 girls have boy after boy, and then the other one has all girls. would love to have time and $$ to study this!

[TeacherMom]

Man. In my opinion, I feel like it is harder to go from the high testosterone characteristics to the low. I think it is harder to make yourself be less competitive. For me, I am competitive and like to influence others (in a good way though!) and I feel like holding that back would make me more testosterone driven because I will be frustrated...if that makes sense. I really feel like generally I am more of a Mary though overall. And I have a boy! :-)

[NCBeachyGrl]

I think maybe only big life events could make a big difference to us Marthas. I have this mentatlity that if I am going to do something, I better do it the best I can. When I am given a special project at work, I try to do it better than anyone. If I host a Thanksgiving or a Christmas, I go over the top to find the best recipes and cook the most I can, find the music, buy the best gifts, etc. If anyone has ever done Stregnths Finder (AS....this would be so cool to have swayers do), than it would make perfect sense that my top stregnth is Achiever.


But, this year we moved (only had 2 weeks to move to a different state), and I feel like everything I ever done went out the window. It took all I had to decorate for Christmas, we went out to eat for Thanksgiving, and I did nothing extra for anything! At work, I have become a procrastinator and unmotivated to do anything (at a bad time too when I just took a promotion). Heck, I even forgot I was off birth control and got pg...which is VERY unlike me.

I don't know if this will mean girl for me or not (prob. not!!), but I def. feel what it is like to be overwhelmed and focused on just getting by than focused on being the best.

[atomic sagebrush]

Man. In my opinion, I feel like it is harder to go from the high testosterone characteristics to the low. I think it is harder to make yourself be less competitive. For me, I am competitive and like to influence others (in a good way though!) and I feel like holding that back would make me more testosterone driven because I will be frustrated...if that makes sense. I really feel like generally I am more of a Mary though overall. And I have a boy! :-)

You DO NOT need to change or alter your personality for a sway and nor should you even try. It is not about changing yourself into a different person. It's accepting but not indulging the Marthaness - so your normal day to day stuff is fine, but you just avoid launching into things that aggravate it.

[atomic sagebrush]

Well, I do think it is important for us to stop pondering "does this make a difference?? does that??" because I believe this is different for everyone. It's not WHAT we do, it's the need for control over whatever arena that we prefer that sets the boy moms apart. For some of us, we may have a messy house and have chaos all around at home, but then at work we may be very highly focused. It's wanting that control around the things that are important to us and that we value that matters. Now, some boy moms do happen to want to control ALL aspects of life, others are ok in some arenas and not others, and then there are others who want and crave control but due to circumstance aren't able to attain it, but I believe they are still more blue-friendly than a person who doesn't ahve and doesn't want control (hope that makes sense.)

[Rainbow baby]

Hummm I am defiantly a Martha :( No amount of sedative is going to help me :/.. I need to be mentally stimulated and challenged so I won't go stir crazy lol I can see how it could be all linked up with other sway tactics like drinking, antihistamines, medications, and so forth...

I am not about to change anything because I can't control my thought and emotions ... so I am going to Mary this over....lol

[atomic sagebrush]

I don't want you guys to change who you are or even try, I am talking about controlling the things in your life that you DO have control over (such as not starting big huge projects, keeping busy, not obsessing over stuff) and then letting the rest go.

[Flowergirl]

Thank you Atomic, you're a little-bit-of-a lot-amazing for putting this together for us mummy's trying to shed our Martha-ness to realise our pinkie dreams.

I think it's not only important for our sways but a great life lesson that can influence our happiness and relationships throughout life.

I pray that God allows me to surrender and rest in His ultimate plan (and I pray that a little girl is part of that plan).

Flower x

[Mulberry Smurf]

I feel as though you've seen into my life and written this lol :/ I am such a boy mummy :) going to enjoy being the type of mummy I am for now and accepting that! Xx

[chloe_dreamofpink]

I really needed to read this today. Thanks so much atomic sagebrush xx

[onebigwish]

intresting...

[girliedreamz]

Awesome. As a total BoyMom, this is so right on. Thanks for the tough atomic love. :) I'm going to go buy some pink nail polish, have a non-fat latte, and plant some flowers instead of reading more swaying essays now...

[Mulberry Smurf]

Good plan girlie :) xx

[Adia]

The more I read your research the more I am convinced I am 100% natural girl swayer....however, lately I have been under serious stress for a variety of reasons, which should only help my T levels soar, naturally, which is good for a blue sway...I hope!

Maybe this will help some pink swayers:
My motto in life is I AM GUMBY! I am as super human flexible as I can possibly be. I am naturally pretty easy going but military life with a bipolar kid & an ADHD kid and a high strung husband is so much more fun when I am as flexible as GUMBY!

(Am I showing my age? Do some of you younger moms even know who GUMBY is?)

[odd]

What's a GUMBY??

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[Adia]

A toy that was popular when I was a kid!

Amazon.com: Classic 6" Bendable Gumby Poseable Figurine Doll: Toys & Games (http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Bendable-Gumby-Poseable-Figurine/dp/B0015DDLC0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1391640491&sr=8-2&keywords=gumby)

[odd]

Ohh. Hahaha lol. .too cute:-)

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[atomic sagebrush]

Adia I know a gal who had 8 daughters, with swaying, without swaying, everyhting in between, and then her 8th daughter was super duper difficult and things were really bad for a couple years and then boom has 2 boys without swaying or anything. I think there is something to that!

[WantinganAdkinsGirl]

After reading this, I closed all the tabs I had up about supps and T levels and how to get the "perfect" pink sway. I've always had an obsessive nature about me, and when faced with most situations I will over analyze or plan it out to death. I conceived my first son on my honeymoon, after months of obsessive planning for the wedding. I conceived my second son after moving into our house, after months of obsessing over bills, furniture, and packing. I can name event after event where I've obsessed to the littlest detail. Now I'm going to try to spend the next 3 months before TTC to relax and let life flow. If we get a "failed" pink sway, I still will have a boy, and I know how amazing boys are! If it's meant to be it will be :-) Thank you for posting this. It is exactly what I need to read to remind myself to let it be.

[weeziewoozles]

After reading this, I closed all the tabs I had up about supps and T levels and how to get the "perfect" pink sway. I've always had an obsessive nature about me, and when faced with most situations I will over analyze or plan it out to death. I conceived my first son on my honeymoon, after months of obsessive planning for the wedding. I conceived my second son after moving into our house, after months of obsessing over bills, furniture, and packing. I can name event after event where I've obsessed to the littlest detail. Now I'm going to try to spend the next 3 months before TTC to relax and let life flow. If we get a "failed" pink sway, I still will have a boy, and I know how amazing boys are! If it's meant to be it will be :-) Thank you for posting this. It is exactly what I need to read to remind myself to let it be.

I'd not thought about life events before! We conceived DS1 on honeymoon too, after I'd single handedly organised our wedding. Also the same as you, DS3 was conceived a few weeks after moving house! When we were TTC DS2, I can't think of any important stuff that was going on but I was trying to eat acidifying foods and tract ovulation in order to time our attempt (I'd not discovered this website at that time), so was probably obsessing. I'm definitely at the Martha end of the spectrum. My main difference is that I am not anxious at all! My DH does enough worrying for the both of us. Also, although I'm quite in control, I do lean on others for help (my mother and mother-in-law help with the kids a lot). My plan for this sway is to do all the planning and obsessing now, then trust myself to follow it all in a relaxed way when it's time to go!

[Rebecca Gabrielle]

Atomic, Its me again!!!! A member after reading my woes! Recommended I read your Maternal Dominance essay. Thank goodness I did!!!!! It was like reading my character c.v! I am everything on that essay!!! It is all soooo true!!! I have typed up a list that is stuck to my fridge ( I also proudly laminated it ) with all the girl sway rules, I also typed up a list and laminated one for my husband to take to work with him, I did run for an hour to the second, I did have the hot shower as suggested, I did joined FitnessPal so that I could track every tiny gram of protein, fat, sugar and carbs, I did spread the lavander throughout the house, wearing ion friendly jewellery and have worked out the dates of the new moon for may, I have bought all the suppliements I need and had my husbands suppliements sent to his office............I am a complete MARTHA!!!!!!!! How scary is that!!!!???? So I have reflected on this, and because of my over controlling tendencies I have decided to drop the exercise and go for no exercise and just the diet. I cannot control my controlling of the exercise....I will be obcessed for sure and will freak out if I dont manage to make a run!!! So best I think for me to drop it purely due to my personality. What you reckon Atomic? Good Plan? I need to CHILLAX!!!!!!!!!!!!! x

[atomic sagebrush]

Well, I would actually still recommend doing the exercise. We have gotten such fantastic results with the exercise and it may help with the Chillaxin'.

The good thing is that we are still early days here, so all that stuff has been done. What I'd like to see you do is NOT sit around worrying about how stressed you are and telling yourself in a panic, "OMG I gotta relax I gotta relax my sway will be RUINED!!" What I would like to see is that this is the end of the laminator, the lists, and all the rest of that stuff.

People read this essay and get panicked over things they CAN'T control (our basic Martha-esque personalities, which is who we are and we can't alter that) and then ignore the elephant in the room of what IS controllable - the detail-oriented, control-freak, label making, laminating, sitting around in a cold cold sweat worrying over "how stress might sway" when in reality EVERYONE has stress, boy mom and girl mom alike.

So short version - don't worry about that which is out of your control, just don't be laminating nothin'. ;)

[motherofboys]

"
They spend a lot of mental energy thinking up every horrible thing that could ever go wrong and making plans on how to prevent these things from happening, or else making contingency plans in case they do.
To a boy mom, if something goes wrong, it’s because they themselves failed to control for every circumstance but that’s ok, because they will simply regroup and try harder and fix all the little things that went wrong the first time. "


This is me! Laying awake for hours at night worrying over things I can not control, plotting escape routes and such. I didn't think I needed control, but I didn't realise it was coming out in more of a paranoia than a need to control people. I stress so much about going out with babies and small children in case they cry and disturb other people and then those people think I'm a bad mother. I worry my boys will turn into delinquents or violent out of control men if they have one fight or say one horrible thing to each other. My kids are good kids, but then I'm sure plenty of horrible people were good kids. I worry I wont do a good enough job, and yeah, that I don't deserve a girl because I couldn't raise her right.
I make lists, I make lists for everything, and I even sit and write out all our incomings and outgoings each month, and if I spend something unexpected, I will sit and do it again. Right down to the pennies. I even stress about being late places. I drive myself crazy over things which could upset my boys and I might not be able to make them feel better over it.
Man I need to lighten up LOL

[bluebonnet22]

Has anyone taken the time to take Valerie Grant's test on her website?

Will I have a boy or girl? Can I choose the sex of my baby? (http://www.sexratio.com/test.php)

I find this stuff so fascinating! When I conceived DS I was in a high powered career and scored around (if memory serves) 80% of having a boy. This time (pre conception) I'm scoring around 55% girl. I'm obviously not foolish enough to think a test like this can predict my child's gender but I DO think staying home and being away from a high powered career has lowered my testosterone some and might at least help me sway girl a little bit.

[Marika]

Has anyone taken the time to take Valerie Grant's test on her website?

Will I have a boy or girl? Can I choose the sex of my baby? (http://www.sexratio.com/test.php)

I find this stuff so fascinating! When I conceived DS I was in a high powered career and scored around (if memory serves) 80% of having a boy. This time (pre conception) I'm scoring around 55% girl. I'm obviously not foolish enough to think a test like this can predict my child's gender but I DO think staying home and being away from a high powered career has lowered my testosterone some and might at least help me sway girl a little bit.

Wow, I just did that test. Had 25% girl and 75% boy :worry:

[motherofboys]

I did it and got 85% girl wish I hadn't now I know it's only a silly internet quiz but obsessive as I am (realising now that my ttc obsession with number 4 may have been my downfall but after 2.5 years I was temping and cervix checking and waking early to temp and charting every tiny symptom and opk-ing. I'm still waiting for my first af after ds4 so no way I can even start yet. Hopefully as we just stopped bfing I will get it soon.
Of course now I'm concerned that I won't know when I'm going to O and if I opk I might obsess again. Never ending lmao


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[bluebonnet22]

I really didn't post it to freak anyone out, it's obviously not meant to be accurate at all!

I do plan on taking this again after 2 months on LE to see if my results change. I'm really hoping to lower my t levels by strictly following the LE so I'm curious if lower t levels would change some things about my temperament and personality (and thus change my traits on quizzes like this).

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[motherofboys]

I probably shouldn't take these tests ha ha I'm trying to revise my sway plan to be as simple but effective as possible, just worrying I've the opk thing and frequency. The test is just for fun.


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[bluebonnet22]

I probably shouldn't take these tests ha ha I'm trying to revise my sway plan to be as simple but effective as possible, just worrying I've the opk thing and frequency. The test is just for fun.


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Maybe you could just try the whole BD every 4 days thing so you don't have to use opks and stress as much? I'm struggling to make my sway as simple as possible as well because I'm a classic Martha and it is in my nature to get too wrapped up in things!

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[motherofboys]

I am probably over thinking but dh is older, 45, so I read he shouldn't be abstaining and frequent release was the way to go. And FR with one attempt at pos opk got good results.
I think I'm trying to get everything to be exactly how I've read and that's not going to be possible.


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[bluebonnet22]

I am probably over thinking but dh is older, 45, so I read he shouldn't be abstaining and frequent release was the way to go. And FR with one attempt at pos opk got good results.
I think I'm trying to get everything to be exactly how I've read and that's not going to be possible.


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You could have him FR (daily) but only BD once every 4 days? If I were you I would wait for AF to return and use opk, it seems like using opk to try to catch the first egg before AF would be stressful?

Also wondering if vitex or some supplement might help bring on AF? If you do have to wait a while for AF I would see it as a positive because it's more time on the diet.

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[motherofboys]

Yeah I'm going to wait for first af to have a starting point. I'll have a look into possible supps to bring it back. Want to get the diet in full swing before ttc anyway


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[atomic sagebrush]

Has anyone taken the time to take Valerie Grant's test on her website?

Will I have a boy or girl? Can I choose the sex of my baby? (http://www.sexratio.com/test.php)

I find this stuff so fascinating! When I conceived DS I was in a high powered career and scored around (if memory serves) 80% of having a boy. This time (pre conception) I'm scoring around 55% girl. I'm obviously not foolish enough to think a test like this can predict my child's gender but I DO think staying home and being away from a high powered career has lowered my testosterone some and might at least help me sway girl a little bit.

My advice is to NOT take this test. :)

[atomic sagebrush]

I really didn't post it to freak anyone out, it's obviously not meant to be accurate at all!

I do plan on taking this again after 2 months on LE to see if my results change. I'm really hoping to lower my t levels by strictly following the LE so I'm curious if lower t levels would change some things about my temperament and personality (and thus change my traits on quizzes like this).

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do you see how making a plan to take this test after 2 months on LE IS a Martha type thing to do?

I don't want anyone to take this test while swaying/TTC. Period, end of story. If you want to take it when you get BFP out of curiosity that is up to you, but it's exactly the type of thing that I don't like to see people doing.

[atomic sagebrush]

BD every 4 days is perfect for sperm health and fine for older dads. You just need to avoid the very long abstains 7+ days.

[medicrunner]

So does a man being older effect swaying?? Also, Ive read through this article and it just makes me bang my head against a wall even harder. I AM that BOY mom, the whole thing is ME to a T. Yet I have three girls. Don't understand.....

[motherofboys]

I think I read (read so much lately my head might explode lol) that older dads slightly sway pink due to age naturally lowering fertility. We still have all boys though. Lots of other factors at play I guess.


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[sweetdream]

do you see how making a plan to take this test after 2 months on LE IS a Martha type thing to do?

I don't want anyone to take this test while swaying/TTC. Period, end of story. If you want to take it when you get BFP out of curiosity that is up to you, but it's exactly the type of thing that I don't like to see people doing.

I won't take it mom! :D I really love you!
Thanks for taking the martha out of me! (occasionally! LOL) let it go! let it go!
I'm in that stress position again.........
(old habbits die hard)

[flowerlily]

So does a man being older effect swaying?? Also, Ive read through this article and it just makes me bang my head against a wall even harder. I AM that BOY mom, the whole thing is ME to a T. Yet I have three girls. Don't understand.....

I have an aunt who is exactly the Martha type yet she has two of both, (there is always a chance) the only difference for her was lifestyle. When she had her girls(they were both surprises) she and her husband had a lot of money problems and she was working full time and I know for a sure she wasn't eating much, definitely no breakfast and always had light luch at work and the only real meal she would've was dinner.
When she had her sons they were both planned and it was when things got better financially, so lots of healthy eating and she wasn't working anymore.
When I tell her the things that I read here she believes me. I'm too the Martha type and the reason I believe I have 2 DS has more to do with lifestyle (and of course eating habits) than my personality. :)

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[sweetdream]

that's the reason not one thing sways! and indeed there is always a chance.
it's like everything gives you 20% to sway one way or another. that's what I believe. I think excercise (or life style) and Diet are the biggest swayers. but then again diet and metabolism works together (metabolism is not something you can always control) so that's also something genetic wich sways. wich you can prolly try to influence with fiber or something.

so that's why it's the complete package. and this may sway a bit cause of T lvl's. but I also believe that when I'm getting in my "martha" eppisodes.. I'm stressed.. and fall back in to wrong habbits wich sways the other way..
I feel like setting myself up for failure.. wich happens then too.. cause I feel weak and that it's stronger then me... Now i've read this again.. I'm gonna try again! get back on track..

relaxing helps with the sway. specially with keeping myself on track.

[SamS_TTCPink]

Motherofboys....that's me too!! Except for the lists!! But I do worry over the exact things you do and always think the worst and always blame myself! I also don't think I "deserve" a girl cause I'm not a good enough mum, wife, daughter!! And after reading all about this theory, I am thinking the worst and going well no wonder I have six boys and that I'll never have a chance of having a girl and it's all my fault!! 😕

I'm trying to lighten up but it's also hard when the whole family are used to me doing everything and controlling everything and so if I don't nothing gets done and decisions don't get made. 😜


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[motherofboys]

Oh yes everything is down to me to decide on so it doesn't help.
I know where your coming from, after all the info I have read on this site I see that everything in my lifestyle, diet and personality all point to boy. But I feel like if I was a better wife and mother I'd get that daughter, or that the mother daughter relationships in my family are so disastrous I would completely mess it up so really shouldn't be a girl mum. It's hard knowing that I need to relax about it but end up stressing over relaxing. I even dreamed of swaying last night, not the getting a girl, but the actual tactics I could use. Obsessing much? Lol
Did you sway in the past? I only discovered this site around my 12 week ultrasound with ds4 so haven't tried anything before. I think once I've got my plan set, and we do start ttc, I will have to step back from the boards for a little while then come back after my bfp.


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[SamS_TTCPink]

No we have never swayed before now. We were actually thinking about it (reading the shettles book) when we fell pregnant with the twins! I said that's what we got for even thinking about it! Lol!!


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[atomic sagebrush]

So does a man being older effect swaying?? Also, Ive read through this article and it just makes me bang my head against a wall even harder. I AM that BOY mom, the whole thing is ME to a T. Yet I have three girls. Don't understand.....

Yes, we believe that older men father more daughters.

What you have to understand about Mary-Martha stuff is that there are OTHER things that affect swaying as well. We get signals from the environment about what gender has the best shot of survival to adulthood to pass down the genes and so it's tough when you look at one thing in isolation and say, well gee whiz that really doesn't apply to me. But there are a zillion other things that are coming into play - diet, exercise, muscle mass, and a bunch of stuff that isn't obvious and may date back to things that happened when you were a kid or even in your mother's womb.

[atomic sagebrush]

Oh yes everything is down to me to decide on so it doesn't help.
I know where your coming from, after all the info I have read on this site I see that everything in my lifestyle, diet and personality all point to boy. But I feel like if I was a better wife and mother I'd get that daughter, or that the mother daughter relationships in my family are so disastrous I would completely mess it up so really shouldn't be a girl mum. It's hard knowing that I need to relax about it but end up stressing over relaxing. I even dreamed of swaying last night, not the getting a girl, but the actual tactics I could use. Obsessing much? Lol
Did you sway in the past? I only discovered this site around my 12 week ultrasound with ds4 so haven't tried anything before. I think once I've got my plan set, and we do start ttc, I will have to step back from the boards for a little while then come back after my bfp.


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This just isn't the case and I know several women who have girls and want boys because they have poor relationships with their mothers and are scared of mother-daughter stuff.

No one is getting boys or girls because they "don't deserve them" or any such thing.

[motherofboys]

Logically I know that can't be the case, but it doesn't stop those thoughts from creeping into my mind.


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[2boysJustOneGirl]

This all makes total sense! Explains my personality and 2 boys and why I cannot let go of not getting what I wanted...a girl. This pushes me towards GS with IVF as I don't know that I can let go enough to influence a sway for a girl. Can I change who I am? My two boys have helped me loosen up a bit for sure, but enough? Who knows. And if all of this is true, what will happen if I choose GS with IVF, get the daughter I always wanted only to realize I am not "Mary" enough to raise her right. What if the Martha types are best suited to raise men? Should I mess with my own fate?


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[fiveboysandagirl]

I know atomic advised against taking that test, but I couldn't resist. I scored 15% boy 85% girl. Funnily enough, my answers were completely different to how they would have been back when my boys were conceived. Back then I was very confident. I believed I could do anything I put my mind to. But not achieving the very thing I wanted to achieve, i.e. conceive a girl, completely knocked he wind out of my sails. I would be interested to see how I scored back in my confident days...


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[atomic sagebrush]

This all makes total sense! Explains my personality and 2 boys and why I cannot let go of not getting what I wanted...a girl. This pushes me towards GS with IVF as I don't know that I can let go enough to influence a sway for a girl. Can I change who I am? My two boys have helped me loosen up a bit for sure, but enough? Who knows. And if all of this is true, what will happen if I choose GS with IVF, get the daughter I always wanted only to realize I am not "Mary" enough to raise her right. What if the Martha types are best suited to raise men? Should I mess with my own fate?


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YOU DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE WHO YOU ARE. That is not what I am trying to get you guys to take away from this. It is IMPOSSIBLE to do that and you only end up replacing one set of worries/anxieties for another, and then I end up seeing people freaking out because they feel a little stressed out or something, versus freaking out over tracking their temps or pH levels.

You are not going to be able to change the fundamental nature of your personality. That's not going to happen, and worrying about things that are of your essence and unchangeable, only feeds the beast. What I want you to focus on is the EASILY controllable side of it. The tangible stuff. Don't view swaying as a game you can win, don't make up flow charts or 10 point plans or test your pH 20 times a day, don't decide now is the time to take up roller derby or enter the Pillsbury bake off, that kind of thing. But also don't, don't, a thousand times don't, go over your whole entire life worrying about stuff that is just who you are.

Re whether you are "suited" to raise a daughter, I think that part of this theory is frankly bullshittery. I do think we may need to make some adjustments when we get an opposite but honestly, I've had to make adjustments to my parenting style for each individual boy as well. Every kid is different and comes with different parenting challenges regardless of what they have between their legs. the whole human race hasn't swelled to 8 billion of us swarming the face of the planet by being inflexible and unable to adapt to new situations!!

[motherofboys]

I love how you have pointed out that you had to change parenting style for each boy there atomic. I so often am told "you got it right, all those boys, girls are such hard work. Much worse than boys" or "blimey you got your hands full, boys are such hard work!" By people with 1 of each so have taken their child's individual personality and blamed all their differences on their gender. My boys all have to be approached in different ways and dealt with in different ways.
I am trying for patience, I find some of my biggest stresses come from things like the 356211689055 times I have to tell my eldest that if I can hear him singing then I know he isn't brushing his teeth and that everyone else still needs to use the bathroom and there's 10 minutes till we need to be out the door!



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[fiveboysandagirl]

My mum and I were just chatting on Skype and she wondered whether there could be an issue with my husband's X sperm? We have now had two missed miscarriages and five healthy boys. Could those miscarriages have be initiated by defective X sperm?

Also, has anyone read this http://phys.org/news148226702.html before? Atomic? It talks about men inheriting their tendency to produce more boys or girls. It's very interesting...


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[atomic sagebrush]

There is no reliable scientific evidence that men can "only make boys" and in fact very sensible and sound reasons why it's highly unlikely. I have discussed that "study" in other places online and actually just discussed it in another thread, I'll see if I can dig it up and repost it here

Yes found it here

Long story short, this is a misleading study and the way it was reported on in the media is even more so (suggesting that there is a gene involved, when no such gene has been found).

What the study found was that yes, there are some families that seem to be more boy or girl heavy than the 50-50 expectation would have us believe. WELL DUH. That could be down to lots of different things - llifestyle, social status, other genetic factors such as height or muscle mass, and to jump to the rather shocking and utterly unproven conclusion that this is down to genes, is silly and not supported by the facts.

It makes the most evolutionary sense for people to be able to make both boys and girls based on cues from the environment about which gender has the best odds of survival to pass down genes to future generations. If there were some gene that made people more likely to have sons, firstly it puts those families at a huge genetic disadvantage right at the start because of all the men who ever existed, only 40% have surviving descendants whereas 80% of all the women who have ever existed have surviving descendants. And secondly, whenever there was a war or other conflict where predominantly males were killed which has happend again and again across time, people who had all their "eggs in one basket" and had only sons, could easily have had their entire genetic contribution wiped out in one fell swoop. Evolution does not favor genes that put you at a 50% disadvantage from the start and then run the risk of being total dead ends at any time.

So just to share our family history, my husband's grandpa was one of three sons and those three sons did happen to go onto have quite a lot of sons. But DH's grandpa (had 5 boys, 4 lived, and then one girl), his kids all had 50-50 boys and girls. And then those kids (my husband's generation) all had 50-50 boys and girls. They all had pigeon pairs and my husband has a little sister, no brothers whatsoever. Except us, who had 4 boys and then one girl. So that would be one hell of a selective gene, that affected two generations, then skipped two generations, only to settle on just us, yk? But if a researcher looked at this family and counted up B vs. G, it may very well be the case that on paper it appeared to be more boy heavy than girl heavy (and it is, in terms of numbers alone) but that doesn't mean that there was any such gene involved.

[motherofboys]

Sorry to but in again but your hubby's family sounds like my hubby's family. His grandad was one of 6 boys. He had 3 boys. His eldest son (dh dad) had 1dd and 2ds, dh uncle had 1ds and 2dd and his other uncle had 3ds. Of the 9 grandchildren, all the boys had only daughters, except BIL who had a pp and dh who has 4 ds.
In fact it's a point of pride with FIL that out of all the grandchildren, only his boys had boys to pass on the family name. Guess someone had to do it.
I love hearing about families that are boy heavy and then get a girl though.


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[fiveboysandagirl]

Actually out of my my grandFIL's 4 sons, only my FIL had two sons. Two of his brothers have one of each and the youngest brother has 4 daughters.


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[mt9178]

I am a mom to four boys and my name is actually Martha...I guess I should be expecting to hear another boy in 8 weeks :)lol

[atomic sagebrush]

Hey, Mary can be a nickname for Martha! (both Martha Stewart and Martha Washington had daughters!!!)

[3girl]

This came at a good time. I've been spending too much time reading other's sways. My attempt is in a week or so. Time to go relax, watch the bachelorette, and paint my nails.

[Dynazyme]

OMG - I am SUCH a Martha!! I can´t belive it :bigsmile:

I really have to relax and stop thinking of my perfect swaying plan.

[daydrmbelievr]

How incredibly interesting!!! My DH kids that I am OCD because I want to be able to understand everything that is going on around me, and to be able to manipulate it as needed.
I have two sons, and both were conceived when I had high stress jobs in very male dominated industries. I was making a higher salary than my hubby at the time, and I always tried to be the "alpha" in our relationship.
I am really hoping that mellowing out and being a happier, less stressed person will help me get my pink ;)

[Hitmebabyonemoretime]

Ya I'm a Martha. But not with my day to day but with DH. I don't directly try to control him but I get stressed out and irritated (maybe even disappointed) in him/by him - all the time it seems.



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[missxo143]

This is a great essay! Thank you!

[stephk]

Hitmebaby - I can totally relate to that!!

[Makai]

This is so interesting! It will be neat to see how this theory progresses over time. I think I fit the profile of a boy mom when it comes to anxiety and worrying about every little thing, and then some.

[Auzair]

Great atomic i recently started reading you here


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[Dynazyme]

To do daily exercises really helps me a lot to be more relaxed and to stop Martha habbits.

(actually is it common in the USA to call sb "Martha" or "Mary"? Never heard about this bible story.)

[atomic sagebrush]

To do daily exercises really helps me a lot to be more relaxed and to stop Martha habbits.

(actually is it common in the USA to call sb "Martha" or "Mary"? Never heard about this bible story.)

No, it's not common at all. I think I probably made it up LOL. I was trying to think of any story that had two dissimilar women in them that many people around the world were familiar with, and who were the right type of people that I think of as being boy/girl mom types. That story and the Ferris Bueller movie both stuck out in my mind as being good examples that many people might be familiar with.

[LacePrincess]

A little late to finding this fabulous set of essays....

But - OMG Atomic!! I am DYING laughing because I am so true-blue that's it's ridiculous. Under 'Boy mom prototype' you might as well paste my picture in the dictionary, because I am THIS ALL OF THIS. I am a Martha dammit! I even have diagnosed OCD. SNORT!!

Ah but I am at a stage where I am making myself let go and LIVE. Just ....leave it all in the hands of God. Healthier and wiser and less miserable all around. It's not easy, but I sure am sick of missing the forest for the trees and missing out on REAL HAPPINESS because I'm so obsessed with the nitpicky unimportant stuff and catastrophizing everything.

I'm doing better, but it's a two steps forward, one step back thing for sure. Ironically if we conceived naturally now I'd probably end up a girl mom, I'm being so zen these days, LMAO. But I'm out of time to sway so we're going HT. But I hear that being relaxed helps IVF anyways, so I'm doing my best to leave it in God's hands and accept that I cannot control what happens. I can just go for the ride, hang on and ride it out, and believe that one way or another things will happen the way they were meant to be.

[LacePrincess]

Hehehe it's funny. My personality really HAS changed. I know how I obsessed years ago, and now I think about TTC and just go 'meh, too lazy to do all that work and planning again'.

Then I took that test and scored very high for boy if I ticked off my personality traits from years ago. And then I did it again ticking off how I tend to feel about things now. And scored 85% girl! hahahhaha!

Awesome but I'm still not risking it, LMAO. Good to know that my trying to be more laid back philosophy really has changed me. Either that or I'm just burnt out exhausted and beat up from life with 3 boys, LMAO. Frankly I'm not even OCD much these days because it's too exhausting!

[trying4twins]

This is fascinating! I'm not done reading it all yet but I find ti very interesting. I am not here to sway one sex or the other (trying for twins) but I imagine I will be more likely to have boys according to the maternal dominance/ testosterone theory.

[True Blue]

I can't work out if I'm more Martha or Mary :D

I have girls so assume I must be a Mary somewhere but reading the two I would have thought myself a Martha :think:

[skillet04]

Random thoughts I had reading through these:

I read these with a grain of salt as in "gee that was a fun read but i will not allow these 'studies' to cause me to beat myself up since i have sons"

Trivers willard study:
Only beautiful social butterflies get daughters

Brainiacs with too much testosterone get boys.....i felt this was a boys are monsters mindset study...gonna let that slide off my back like water off a duck ;)


Rashi thought he only had daughters because he couldnt please his wife in bed...or so i read in a book once

My mom loves red meat and sweets

Strangers walk up to me and tell me im beautiful.

I fear these 'studies' could end up Just another mommy war subject to speculate if these things ring true in whether pink or blue...

but both are bundles of joy. And i am blessed to even have children seeing as how im so subfertile.

[trifecta]

Trivers willard study:
Only beautiful social butterflies get daughters

Brainiacs with too much testosterone get boys and promiscuis...was this a boys are monsters mindset study


That one study that said attractive people have more girls really pissed me off. On the one hand I don't give it much stock because it wasn't very scientific--attractiveness was rated by the participants' third grade teachers, not by something measurable like the golden ratio or facial symmetry. Still, it really stuck in my craw because it came out right when we found out we were having a second boy. I felt like people would read about it and start considering me less attractive (which is of course stupid because people could always see and evaluate how I looked). Also, I look like my mom so somehow she was good-looking enough to have a girl but I'm not? Hmmmmm, doesn't sound plausible.

[maidentomother]

That beautiful people study isn't very significant IMO. Not a well done study IMO and very overhyped.

[djmommy]

I don't like that either and don't put much stock in it.
What worries me is that I have OCD tendencies...eekkkk...did I just say that. But mildly. I like my house run a certain, esp with 2 little boys, it can get outta control easy. And I am always on time. It annoys me! LOL. I need to work on these things and relax more about some stuff.

[maidentomother]

I have full blown OCD. Not mild either. I was medicated heavily for many years.

[djmommy]

That must have been really hard on you maiden. Has it gotten better?

[atomic sagebrush]

I am wondering if we may be having some language or cultural issues going on here because I am not totally following all this. I get an "offended" vibe from your post, skillet, and I am walking away with an offended vibe myself which may or may not have been your intent.

I am simply talking in generalities and not specifics based upon years of research that I have done. I think I am being exceedingly fair and even handed with it. I went to great efforts in that regard. If anyone thinks I am trying to incite mommy wars they are either coming at this from a totally different worldview than I am or we are speaking two different languages (literally)

Beautiful women and daughters, I actually need an essay on this since it got so much attention. The study was a bit hinky (I would much rather they had had a different kind of setup where they had pictures rated by attractiveness by bystanders and not people rated by researchers, I've heard that it was because there is more to beauty than what is represneted on a picture but I still feel it was too biased)

BUT also it was misrepresented in the media because in the study itself, it found that it wasn't that beautiful women have girls, ugly women have boys. The results were actually much more interesting and absolutely in line with TW. Both the most beautiful and the least attractive group had daughters, while the "very attractive, attractive, somewhat less attractive" categories had more sons. This goes along with TW because the idea is that the women/females in poorest condition (and being unattractive can sometimes be a result of being in poor condition) can typically still find a mate, at least for long enough to get pregnant, while a very unattractive, poor condition male simply cannot compete.

Editorial note, if any all-girl moms get mad at me for reporting on this, which has happened once before and this woman was all like "you boy moms can't even let us have THAT!" Please note, I am simply reporting what a study found. If you want to go around happy and superior in the knowledge that "beautiful women have more daughters" please feel free. The boy-mom vs. girl mom crap that used to fly on IG doesn't fly around here so let's everyone don our big girl panties if possible.

Re "smart women have more sons" it wasn't intelligence per se that was measured, it was the types of careers that they picked and I know some VERY savvy women who understand things about interpersonal relationships that would confuse the hell out of Bill Gates or Stephen Hawking so I tend to think that it's more women who are "smart" in a way that is more likely to be recognized by males may have more boys. I think intelligence can be a hard thing to quantify, after all both Michelle Obama and Hilary Clinton are pretty darn smart gals but have girls.

Re boys are monsters mindset - I do not include studies that are obvious anti-male hit pieces. Any study that I have read that seems interesting and possibly to be in some way informative, I mention. Does it mean that every aspect will be true for everyone all the time, NO. I am and always have been one of the biggest defenders of boys and men since I showed up on InGender in 2007 so anyone who is accusing me of being antimale has completely misread what I was saying. As for who my daughter will marry, I think that is a totally out of order thing to say and really not appreciated.

Grant's study was simply that women who were more likely to be trying to influence the actions of others tended to have more boys. THe OCD observation is mine and based on my experiences with hundreds if not thousands of women at this point. Something may not be true for you but could still be true across the general population. That one I believe with every fiber of my being. My house is a mess too but I am OCD in other ways.

Being a pushover has absolutely nothing to do with this. I find moms of boys are often very indulgent of their little guys. I do not think you are understanding what I am saying. You can be a very sweet person but are still working to influence the actions of others by being sweet and kind to them.

Woman married to partner has been shown in studies dating back to the 1800's to be more likely to produce sons.

RE promiscuous - I'm not sure I am quite sure what you're even referring to. No one is calling anyone promiscuous. I do find that ON AVERAGE moms and dads of boys tend to have higher sex drives but at the same time more boys are born in monogamous relationships so I do not see how that is calling anyone promiscuous. I don't know who Rashi is, I'm sorry.

I am not saying either Mary or Martha was wrong. They are two different approaches to life, two different strategies. One may work in some cases, the other may work in other cases. NO ONE is really a Mary or a Martha, we both have elements of each in us. I'm sorry you read it that way. Please try to keep in mind that MANY moms of all girls are constantly treated as if they are "less than" because they have no sons, and because of the way Valerie Grant made her argument. I was putting a humorous spin on that not to make boy moms feel bad, but to make girl moms feel good about themselves.

Research has shown that the females of the species have a say in the gender of the baby that they conceive. This has been well documented by science for decades. REgardless of Henry the 8th or what anyone's mom has to say about it.

[atomic sagebrush]

That one study that said attractive people have more girls really pissed me off. On the one hand I don't give it much stock because it wasn't very scientific--attractiveness was rated by the participants' third grade teachers, not by something measurable like the golden ratio or facial symmetry. Still, it really stuck in my craw because it came out right when we found out we were having a second boy. I felt like people would read about it and start considering me less attractive (which is of course stupid because people could always see and evaluate how I looked). Also, I look like my mom so somehow she was good-looking enough to have a girl but I'm not? Hmmmmm, doesn't sound plausible.

I would have liked them to take pictures and have them rated by people who were not involved in the study in any other way, and then they could have gone and seen the gender makeup of the ffamily after the "attractiveness" had been rated.

But, like I mentioned above, the media did not report the study accurately anyway because both "beautiful" and "very unattractive" people had more girls and then all three groups in the middle had more boys.

[maidentomother]

Skillet's post came off badly to me too. I definitely think there's a language barrier.

DJ, yep, the time on the meds and doing lots of CBT really helped. Also my DH dying & my back getting so bad. It's hard to care so much about details after mega tragedy. But I still have it, I always will to some extent I think. If you think you do have OCD or even strong tendencies I highly recommend medication + CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy, often exposure therapy if you have compulsions).

[djmommy]

Skillet's post came off badly to me too. I definitely think there's a language barrier.

DJ, yep, the time on the meds and doing lots of CBT really helped. Also my DH dying & my back getting so bad. It's hard to care so much about details after mega tragedy. But I still have it, I always will to some extent I think. If you think you do have OCD or even strong tendencies I highly recommend medication + CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy, often exposure therapy if you have compulsions).

I am sorry to hear that your Dh has passed. I can not imagine how hard that is. I agree that when you have been through tragedy, you realize what is really important. Glad you have gotten better.
As far as OCD, I meant "worry" in a way of my swaying. I actually don't believe I have OCD as in it affects my everyday life. I don't have any compulsions. I just like things done a certain way but can deal with it if something changes.LOL....

[LacePrincess]

Wow I have totally not followed this thread, but peaked my curiosity when I saw somehow OCD had come up, how did that happen? LOL

First, my thoughts to you maiden. I can't imagine that sort of loss, and you are a strong, strong lady for coming through that. I hope you're proud of yourself, because you should be!

Now about OCD, since I am a diagnosed OCD/GAD, I felt I had to chime in too. I've been officially diagnosed since I was 22 but my doctors think I probably had it as early as 7yo. OCD is not about being an overly neat freak, or about being particular or even about being overly picky about details. OCD is an *anxiety* disorder which takes many, MANY forms. The germ/tidiness thing is a cliche and there are MANY forms of OCD that don't involve cleanliness in any way. Actually, ironically enough, chronic hoarders often have a form of OCD, go figure.

This is a pretty good article debunking the myths of OCD: Nine myths about Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2014/10/31/nine-myths-about-obsessive-compulsive-disorder)

Djmommy, being a neat freak, control freak, or being irritated when things aren't 'just so' don't necessarily make you OCD. OCD is anxiety about uncertainty over something (bad things happening to your family like disease, a bad guy breaking into your house, catastrophes like your house burning down, a generally disproportionate overwhelming fear of 'bad stuff' happening) and then magical thinking that by doing some sort of compulsive act (washing hands, cleaning obsessively, checking the doors over and over, counting/tapping/muttering mantras) that those acts will somehow prevent the 'bad thing' from occurring. The compulsion then becomes a self-sooth thing that basically affirms to your mind that the boogeyman you fear has any validity, and it becomes an absolutely VICIOUS cycle of unfounded anxiety where the sufferer tries to stop the anxiety by compulsing, except the compulsions only serve to validate that there IS something to fear - when there isn't. So it's a self affirming cycle that generally only gets worse with time.

Maiden is right that if you have OCD bad it usually takes anti-anxiety meds of some form to calm the mind, but CBT is what truly breaks the cycle of poisonous self destructive thought patterns. And that can take years to work. OCD is also chronic and can 'flare' back up at any time, especially with stress and hormones. For me, chronic stress kicks off my OCD, as well as hormones, so I have to constantly 'BE VIGILANT!" as Auror Moody from Harry Potter would say, LOL. And even today even though I'd consider myself doing great, I still have OCD, I just accept that in some things I'll always 'need' to do (I'm a contamination OCD in particular). I still have intrusive thoughts, and it's a multiple-times-a-day thing to logic it out to myself into not doing compulsions.

[LacePrincess]

About the 'beautiful women have more girls' study....

Well first the obvious, beauty is rather subjective so by what cultural standard? And even the symmetry of features criteria isn't something I buy into, I've seen some perfectly symmetrical examples and I find them anything BUT beautiful.

Second, Carrie Underwood and Mike Fisher are pretty beautiful people by most people's standards. And Kate Middleton is definitely gorgeous! And both are BOY MOMS. Frankly I wouldn't be insulted if anyone compared me to Princess Kate. ;)

[djmommy]

Wow I have totally not followed this thread, but peaked my curiosity when I saw somehow OCD had come up, how did that happen? LOL

First, my thoughts to you maiden. I can't imagine that sort of loss, and you are a strong, strong lady for coming through that. I hope you're proud of yourself, because you should be!

Now about OCD, since I am a diagnosed OCD/GAD, I felt I had to chime in too. I've been officially diagnosed since I was 22 but my doctors think I probably had it as early as 7yo. OCD is not about being an overly neat freak, or about being particular or even about being overly picky about details. OCD is an *anxiety* disorder which takes many, MANY forms. The germ/tidiness thing is a cliche and there are MANY forms of OCD that don't involve cleanliness in any way. Actually, ironically enough, chronic hoarders often have a form of OCD, go figure.

This is a pretty good article debunking the myths of OCD: Nine myths about Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2014/10/31/nine-myths-about-obsessive-compulsive-disorder)

Djmommy, being a neat freak, control freak, or being irritated when things aren't 'just so' don't necessarily make you OCD. OCD is anxiety about uncertainty over something (bad things happening to your family like disease, a bad guy breaking into your house, catastrophes like your house burning down, a generally disproportionate overwhelming fear of 'bad stuff' happening) and then magical thinking that by doing some sort of compulsive act (washing hands, cleaning obsessively, checking the doors over and over, counting/tapping/muttering mantras) that those acts will somehow prevent the 'bad thing' from occurring. The compulsion then becomes a self-sooth thing that basically affirms to your mind that the boogeyman you fear has any validity, and it becomes an absolutely VICIOUS cycle of unfounded anxiety where the sufferer tries to stop the anxiety by compulsing, except the compulsions only serve to validate that there IS something to fear - when there isn't. So it's a self affirming cycle that generally only gets worse with time.

Maiden is right that if you have OCD bad it usually takes anti-anxiety meds of some form to calm the mind, but CBT is what truly breaks the cycle of poisonous self destructive thought patterns. And that can take years to work. OCD is also chronic and can 'flare' back up at any time, especially with stress and hormones. For me, chronic stress kicks off my OCD, as well as hormones, so I have to constantly 'BE VIGILANT!" as Auror Moody from Harry Potter would say, LOL. And even today even though I'd consider myself doing great, I still have OCD, I just accept that in some things I'll always 'need' to do (I'm a contamination OCD in particular). I still have intrusive thoughts, and it's a multiple-times-a-day thing to logic it out to myself into not doing compulsions.

Thank you Lace for chiming in and giving me a better understanding. Everything that you say makes it easily more understandable. I was never really "obsessive" about stuff until I met my DH. He definitely has a form of OCD and I swear that it rubs off on me, if that is even possible. He definitely has anxiety about stuff exactly the way you stated..ie, locking all the doors and windows and double checking nightly, before we leave the house. Is very well prepared in case we need to be self sufficient, etc. He is very high strung and we often wonder if he could take something for anxiety but was always under the impression that it would make him loopy. I know the OCD is nothing to make light of and it is a very serious disorder that creates extreme fear among those who suffer from it. I did not mean to speak lightly of it and I apologize if I did.

I also agree that Maiden, you are incredibly strong for overcoming as much as you have. I really and truly hope that you are blessed with you sweet take home baby very soon!!

[LacePrincess]

Thank you Lace for chiming in and giving me a better understanding. Everything that you say makes it easily more understandable. I was never really "obsessive" about stuff until I met my DH. He definitely has a form of OCD and I swear that it rubs off on me, if that is even possible. He definitely has anxiety about stuff exactly the way you stated..ie, locking all the doors and windows and double checking nightly, before we leave the house. Is very well prepared in case we need to be self sufficient, etc. He is very high strung and we often wonder if he could take something for anxiety but was always under the impression that it would make him loopy. I know the OCD is nothing to make light of and it is a very serious disorder that creates extreme fear among those who suffer from it. I did not mean to speak lightly of it and I apologize if I did.

I also agree that Maiden, you are incredibly strong for overcoming as much as you have. I really and truly hope that you are blessed with you sweet take home baby very soon!!

Djmommy, no worries AT ALL, I wasn't offended in any way, shape, or form. :) OCD has so many misrepresentations in the media that it's easy to misidentify what it is and what it isn't.

Your DH certainly could have OCD. And his behaviours could definitely be influencing you, especially if you didn't have tendencies before you met him. It's not necessary to take meds to control it, just the meds can make it easier to give a person's brain a break from the anxiety so they can reshape their thought patterns to healthier behaviours. But CBT is totally doable without meds and even on your own.

Also with OCD, some of those behaviours aren't necessarily bad or harmful, like double checking doors, or washing hands. Some are completely useless like mantras or tapping, and should be a goal to eliminate. With the helpful behaviours, they're only a problem if it gets to be so excessive that it interferes with having a normal functioning life, or if the anxiety is so bad that it brings misery. OCD management isn't about eliminating all compulsions if those compulsions are actually good things to do within reason. So say you set a limit that checking the door twice when leaving the house or going to bed are ok. Checking them over and over for hours per day are not. Etc.

Two books I can really recommend are:

The OCD Workbook Amazon.com: The OCD Workbook: Your Guide to Breaking Free from Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (9781572249219): Bruce M. Hyman PhD LCSW, Cherlene Pedrick RN: Books (http://www.amazon.com/OCD-Workbook-Breaking-Obsessive-Compulsive-Disorder/dp/1572249218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425579969&sr=8-1&keywords=the+ocd+workbook)

and

Brain Lock Brain Lock: Free Yourself from Obsessive-Compulsive Behavior: Jeffrey M. Schwartz, Beverly Beyette: 9780060987114: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Lock-Yourself-Obsessive-Compulsive-Behavior/dp/0060987111/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425580263&sr=8-1&keywords=brain+lock)

Very helpful exercises to do to control OCD thought patterns and totally something you can do without a therapist.

[djmommy]

Thanks so much for the great and helpful information. I want my DH to look at it to.

[djmommy]

On another note, your chart is looking good! Even if it was long, hopefully it will be worth the wait! :fx:

[LacePrincess]

On another note, your chart is looking good! Even if it was long, hopefully it will be worth the wait! :fx:

Thanks! I'm really trying not to think about it or symptom spot. It's just a recipe for stress for me!! I refuse to get my hopes up, right now if my LP gets to 9-10 days I'll already be happy.

[djmommy]

Thanks! I'm really trying not to think about it or symptom spot. It's just a recipe for stress for me!! I refuse to get my hopes up, right now if my LP gets to 9-10 days I'll already be happy.

I know exactly what you mean. Exactly why I have decided not to temp this cycle after a year, I need a break!

[LacePrincess]

I know exactly what you mean. Exactly why I have decided not to temp this cycle after a year, I need a break!

Absolutely. I know in the past I've also temped just to get to O confirmation, then not temped the rest of the 2WW, because it simply was too damned stressful for no reason. I think I'll start doing that again, because not being able to sleep due to worrying about the next morning's temp is pretty silly!

[atomic sagebrush]

chart looking beee-you-tiful today LP.

[LacePrincess]

chart looking beee-you-tiful today LP.

Thanks AS. :) Not going to think anything of it, been disappointed too many times in the past. Mine usually nosedives at 9-10dpo anyways.

Looking forward to my junk food binge feast for Monday though! :D Planning on fried chicken and poutine and sushi......okay it all doesn't really go together but I've been craving it for awhile now! Probably need a whole bottle of antacids too, LOL.

[trifecta]

And even the symmetry of features criteria isn't something I buy into, I've seen some perfectly symmetrical examples and I find them anything BUT beautiful.
True, I'm sure there's someone out there who's perfectly and equally ugly on both sides!

[foxymrsg]

I agree that the beauty thing is a ridiculous 'study'! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I completely believe that! As you say if there were pictures I bet we'd all see differing sorts of beauty in each person!
I truly hope that that post is just a language barrier causing problems I would absolutely hate for you to feel offended Atomic from anyone after all the hard work you have put into all of this. I am sure you know that so many of us are so incredibly grateful!

[aaronpaul]

I really needed to read this today. Thanks so much atomic sagebrush xx

[nuthinbutpink]

Fwiw I read skillets post as tonge and cheek. Seems she was trying to make light and poke fun at the data and how it's not actually fact and this as she says in the beginning, agrees with atomic.

[atomic sagebrush]

I read so many things all day long it is totally possible I get things wrong sometimes. Only human but I do apologize if any misunderstanding. :)

[skillet04]

Fwiw I read skillets post as tonge and cheek. Seems she was trying to make light and poke fun at the data and how it's not actually fact and this as she says in the beginning, agrees with atomic.

YES YES YES a million times yes...I was saying I agree that some of the things cited by these various studies are ridiculous ...like sometimes old wives tales about the gender one is carrying turn out to be true and other times, just have a good laugh and go on about the day ;)

Sorry, I had no idea that just saying I agree that some of the findings may or may not be true would cause a frenzy and that I didn't have a chance to get back on here sooner...my 19.5 week old boy is still a very poor sleeper who grazes around the clock....I am so looking forward to some real zzzz's....someday...
And some of my thoughts came from googling trivers Willard ...again sleep deprived and in agreement that these studies are not 100% spot on :D

[LacePrincess]

Just watching a talk show now, and guess what other celebrity has a son?

Elizabeth Hurley!

Ok now come on ladies, if this doesn't disprove the ridiculous 'beautiful women have girls notion' I don't know what else well. I can't think of anyone more universally considered beautiful than Elizabeth Hurley.

[skillet04]

[emoji254] [emoji253] [emoji300] [emoji264] [emoji262]

[atomic sagebrush]

Ok well, I go off what I personally have read and been taught and I am not going to go on and on in this thread quibbling about the details. It is meant to make people stop and think about their lives and the type of people they are. I can tell you that I have talked to probably 10,000 women and there is absolutely, completely, and totally a trend with the personality stuff where the boy moms are control freaks and the girl moms are either laid back or easily overwhelmed. ARe there exceptions, many, and I do not pretend to know how it all works. I DO KNOW that the women back on InGender who would put tons of effort into timing and colorcoded pH charts and spending 2 years swaying without conceiving to get it all "perfect" were the ones getting boys with otherwise great sways.

it is NOT who has a clean home and who doesn't. Some people have control issues in other aspects of life. I can assure you my house is a pigsty but I have been a control freak in many other arenas.

I feel like you are putting so much energy into trying to prove me wrong or call me out in this thread, but can you take a step back and realize how this is kind of a "Martha-y" thing to be doing??

I am really sorry you feel like an incubator, I will tell you that my two oldest sons are my best friends (not in a weird way LOL) and I admire them more than words can say. My husband never really bonded with them and actually had a weird kind of GD for another boy even though he already had two.

You don't have to believe in this theory or idea but I DO. I experienced it firsthand when my personality felt DIFFERENT

[Hex]

Interesting read/theory. As a pink swayer, I feel as if I have this thing in the bag, lol. I am pretty laid back and chill, I don't exert a lot of energy worrying, and, besides a few rough patches in my life, I have always been that way. Interestingly, those rough patches line up well with when I conceived both of my sons. When I conceived my first son, I was in a stressful and emotionally abusive relationship with his father. We fought constantly, could never see eye to eye and he wanted to use me up for whatever I could give him and toss me aside. I wasn't standing for that so I became pretty authoritative, loud and controlling more as a survival mechanism than anything. I left him shortly after our son was born, (I moved my things out while he was out of state getting another woman pregnant...) Several months later I began dating my current hubby and my ex started filing court petitions for custody hearings, and other super fun stuff like that. I got pregnant with my second son in the midst of all of that stress - another situation where I had to do a lot of standing up for myself and taking control of the situation. Normally I am more of a "why do today what I could put off until tomorrow?" type of person and I choose my battles very carefully which often leads to me just going along with people to avoid conflict. I mean to the point where I am kind of a failure lol. But I do seem to be kind of popular because a lot of people know me and a lot of people are there for me offering to help when I need something.
Also, I feel the cornerstone of your essay was theoretical examples and not biblical accuracy. I'm not biblical at all (don't own a bible or any type of religious text) as a person, nor have I ever watched the movie Ferris Bueller's Day Off (the movie came out 3 years before I was even born!) from start to finish, but nonetheless the descriptions of the characters helped to illustrate the relevant personality traits.

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes, apparently my beloved Bible story book my grandma gave me when I was a little kid, had that part of the story backward and was actually incorrect so I had been reading that part wrong all these years and even though I'm sure I read it elsewhere properly it was so set in my brain that way I never noticed. but IT DOESN'T MATTER it was just to illustrate a point. The beginning was way more important than that anyway. I could have gone on to mention how Martha didn't want to open Lazarus' grave because she was more worried about the smell offending people than bringing her brother back to life. It is irrelevant. The fact is that any of us can look around at the world around us and see 1000 people some of whom are running around wasting time and effort on controlling external details while others focus and cement relationships instead. That is what everyone should take away from the story. Neither way is right or wrong and they are both equally valid ways of getting thru life, just different approaches. One may be more affiliated with moms of boys, the other moms of girls, and no one is "bad or wrong or a failure or undeserving" etc etc etc etc

[atomic sagebrush]

It's actually quite interesting because "the old Kristin" would have flipped OUT if I realized I'd have made a mistake on something like this which matters to me hugely and I probably spent 100 hours working on it, and "the new Kristin" is like "it doesn't matter" because it doesn't and it doesn't even bother me. I made a mistake, big whoop. Nobody died. It's like a whole different way of thinking and existing from my old Martha/Jeannie days. :)

[sunnygirl]

Such a great Essay Atomic! I've really enjoyed reading it. I nodded the whole time! I've got 3 sons and so much of that is me. I think some people grabbed onto tiny parts of it and ran with those missing some other components. I may not have a squeaky clean house but I obsess, fixate on things and worry. I think of the worst case scenario and plan for it always trying to overt disaster lol I try to persuade people, not by being bossy but by being nice and sweet :-). I've got perpetual guilt about stuff that drives me to achieve things for me, my family etc.....this article is so amazing in showing us how much more complicated the human body is than we give it credit for. Very thought provoking and challenging me to rein in the obsessive worry beast lol

[sunnygirl]

Also my thoughts on beautiful social butterflies and girl. I have to agree on this. I think by beautiful they mean feminine. My friends with all DDs may not be supermodels but they are very feminine. I was always told I was more attractive than them because I was thinner etc, but I was more athletic and boyish than they. They had that delicate girly thing going on.....that I'd love to have. AND they were always hanging out with their girlfriends. - not just weekly, but daily. I'd be thinking I had too much to do at home....feeling guilty about my unfinished jobs. They'd be out having coffee, lunches, dance groups, play groups, movie nights living it up, unbothered by DH disdain at them being out. Should've joined them to get a girl! Lol

[atomic sagebrush]

Such a great Essay Atomic! I've really enjoyed reading it. I nodded the whole time! I've got 3 sons and so much of that is me. I think some people grabbed onto tiny parts of it and ran with those missing some other components. I may not have a squeaky clean house but I obsess, fixate on things and worry. I think of the worst case scenario and plan for it always trying to overt disaster lol I try to persuade people, not by being bossy but by being nice and sweet :-). I've got perpetual guilt about stuff that drives me to achieve things for me, my family etc.....this article is so amazing in showing us how much more complicated the human body is than we give it credit for. Very thought provoking and challenging me to rein in the obsessive worry beast lol

I agree with every word you say in both posts!! The interesting thing is that the GUILT is incessant for many of us and it's so draining, to envision all the things we "should" be doing for everyone in our lives and it just is not really possible to keep everyone happy and satisfied, there aren't the hours in the day to meet everyone's demands. But it doesn't mean that we don't think we should. I (not as much now but back in my boy-making days) would plan and plan and think and figure how I was going to do all these things that various people wanted me to - even people I barely knew like neighbors down the road and great-aunts and stuff, and many times my plans didn't work out. Most times. But the plans were amazing and phenominal, it's just that I'd have needed a million dollars and a cast of thousands to pull them off. And then I spent so much energy planning these elaborate scenarios because I wanted everyone to like me, that I had very little energy left over to do things that were a lot more practical, like housework. So then I'd draw up this minute by minute schedule of how I was going to clean and maintain the house over the next 12 months and waste tons of time on that, but then it was so un-stick-to-able that again I'd have needed a million dollars and a cast of thousands to acheive it. And on, and on, and on. It's NOT the clean house, it's not even what you do that the outside world even sees, it's that inner life and what goes on inside your mind.

Over time I realized that even the great things I pulled off were going over like a lead balloon - I'd spend literally a month working on these huge Christmas boxes for everyone and send them out and I was so proud of them, but then I found out that most people were throwing practically all of it away. People don't WANT the big elaborate show. They'd much rather have a postcard every so often than nothing for a year and then 20 page letter. We Marthas just get it wrong when we think that people are impressed by the big plans and schemes, even when we manage to accomplish them.

[Girlwish]

Ok I just wanted to share with you guys that I am pregnant with a boy after a strong sway and I always knwe after Reading this essay that I was THE Martha but unfortunately I could not dial her DOWN and a 3rd boy is the result.
I spend hours of analyzing what I did wrong and besides that I was very worried about certain factors in my sway I finally figuren out what I did most wrong....
The thing I did wrong was....that I was in COMPETITION with MYSELF the whole sway long. I was determined to let my sway succeed at all costs!! I used this trait of my character many times before in personal life and carreer and I ALWAYS succeeded at every goal I set and every achievement I had to make. It got me where I am to day........including.......three boys.......:(
It is so me that I didn't realize during my sway that I was doing that, but I obsessively excersized and followed the diet....I think it would have been better if I stayed coach patatoe or did not have to follow the diet.....but then again my chances of a boy would probably have been even higher........so I guess I am a unsuitable candidate for swaying.....:(
I don't want to scare you guys, just wanted to warn you / let you know if you are a real Martha.....she might not be so easy to back down.....:(

[atomic sagebrush]

What I DON'T want you guys to do, after reading these, is to then encorporate it INTO the Martha. Your personality is mainly out of your control and you simply can't force yourself to be a different person than who you are. We LOVE who you are. We don't want to change that. All that we should take from these essays is that you should avoid starting off doing these big huge sway related projects and every day take a moment to acknowledge that the reality of swaying is that it's never a guarantee and all we do, is what we can do and then turn it over to the hands of whatever higher power you believe in (even luck). Because that's where it is all along. It's not something we can make happen, we can only control as much as is controllable and that is only a part of the reasons why we conceive the gender we do. The stuff we do for swaying is like the tip of a very small iceberg and most things are down under the water where we can't see them or "fix" them.

We've all seen perfect sways produce opposites and half-A$$ ones succeed and it is NEVER about what anyone did that was "wrong" or some personal failing on their part. It's just bad luck, that's all, and (atomic tough love warning) to look back and then decide that what you did "wrong" was your fault because you did/could not dial it down enough - that IS the Martha talking.

[sunnygirl]

I agree with every word you say in both posts!! The interesting thing is that the GUILT is incessant for many of us and it's so draining, to envision all the things we "should" be doing for everyone in our lives and it just is not really possible to keep everyone happy and satisfied, there aren't the hours in the day to meet everyone's demands. But it doesn't mean that we don't think we should. I (not as much now but back in my boy-making days) would plan and plan and think and figure how I was going to do all these things that various people wanted me to - even people I barely knew like neighbors down the road and great-aunts and stuff, and many times my plans didn't work out. Most times. But the plans were amazing and phenominal, it's just that I'd have needed a million dollars and a cast of thousands to pull them off. And then I spent so much energy planning these elaborate scenarios because I wanted everyone to like me, that I had very little energy left over to do things that were a lot more practical, like housework. So then I'd draw up this minute by minute schedule of how I was going to clean and maintain the house over the next 12 months and waste tons of time on that, but then it was so un-stick-to-able that again I'd have needed a million dollars and a cast of thousands to acheive it. And on, and on, and on. It's NOT the clean house, it's not even what you do that the outside world even sees, it's that inner life and what goes on inside your mind.

Over time I realized that even the great things I pulled off were going over like a lead balloon - I'd spend literally a month working on these huge Christmas boxes for everyone and send them out and I was so proud of them, but then I found out that most people were throwing practically all of it away. People don't WANT the big elaborate show. They'd much rather have a postcard every so often than nothing for a year and then 20 page letter. We Marthas just get it wrong when we think that people are impressed by the big plans and schemes, even when we manage to accomplish them.

Ha ha, I smiled the whole time I read this.....You just explained me to the core lol!!

[Complex Emotions]

..not only do boy moms try to be in control, on some level they feel like they HAVE to or dire consequences will result. Boy moms on balance are a lot more anxious and wound up than girl moms are and have the idea that they must control, control, control...

Girl moms on the other hand, don’t seem to have this same drive to the same extent; in my opinion they may have a bit more tendency to attribute things to being out of their control or as being the responsibility of someone else and that they are either powerless to change them or that it isn’t really worth it to bother because someone else will take care of that...

This is fascinating. I do have one question for you though, Atomic. Is it possible that this pattern you've see has to do with a boy mom's need for a daughter being a whole different thing than a girl mom's hopes for a son? For example, I suspect there may be some kind of a (for lack of a better description) "life resolution" you experience through raising a child of the same gender that you are yourself. If there's something to this, then maybe the boy mom's desire for a daughter is coming from a need within herself to experience that resolution. Whereas the girl mom already has had this need filled, so for the girl mom having a boy is maybe at least partially to provide her husband with it. She could relax more easily with her sway because her need is more distanced and removed than the boy mom's. In short, maybe it's not that the boy mom is a more anxious person in general, but maybe she's more anxious with gender anxiety because she's feeling this need in a different way. (Plus it can't hurt that the girl mom's sway plan is mostly good for her body and lifestyle has a reported 80% chance of resulting in a son, so she may feeling overall optimistic and hopeful, while meanwhile the boy mom's sway plan is harder on her health and has lower odds of working.)

[atomic sagebrush]

This is fascinating. I do have one question for you though, Atomic. Is it possible that this pattern you've see has to do with a boy mom's need for a daughter being a whole different thing than a girl mom's hopes for a son? For example, I suspect there may be some kind of a (for lack of a better description) "life resolution" you experience through raising a child of the same gender that you are yourself. If there's something to this, then maybe the boy mom's desire for a daughter is coming from a need within herself to experience that resolution. Whereas the girl mom already has had this need filled, so for the girl mom having a boy is maybe at least partially to provide her husband with it. She could relax more easily with her sway because her need is more distanced and removed than the boy mom's. In short, maybe it's not that the boy mom is a more anxious person in general, but maybe she's more anxious with gender anxiety because she's feeling this need in a different way. (Plus it can't hurt that the girl mom's sway plan is mostly good for her body and lifestyle has a reported 80% chance of resulting in a son, so she may feeling overall optimistic and hopeful, while meanwhile the boy mom's sway plan is harder on her health and has lower odds of working.)

No. For a couple reasons.

First of all, for at least some of us the desire for a son isn't any different than the desire for a daughter. I think there's probably an innate desire to have both boys and girls that we don't realize really and/or try to explain via psychology or cultural issues or "life resolution" but the reality is, it's just THERE naturally, for some more than others (just like all innate drives are there for some people more than others). I had a strong gender preference with my first for a BOY and I was just lucky enough to get him (and I experienced FAR FAR more "life resolution" from being a mommy than I have gotten from having a daughter.) I do think it's less common but it's real, and if anything I had a stronger desire for a son than I did for my daughter. My daughter, it got so bad partly because I was running out of time, and partly because I thought that DS 3 was a girl because of symptoms and stuff and it was like someone "took her away" from me. I know that it's different for everyone but for me, my primary desire was children, secondly I wanted a son, and having a daughter only came in after a long time of being pretty happy with the first two things.

There are plenty of ladies on here, like me and Nuthin, that do feel a pretty burning need for a little dude and their husbands aren't into it and are happy with girls. Not as many ladies as you might think are doing this for their husbands, because it's only the ladies who are most motivated who make it this far (even with swaying) it takes a level of commitment that women who don't have the desire, are rarely interested in. In fact we do occasionally have a man show up on the site and again and again his wife isn't interested and thus he usually gives up. The ladies who are here hanging out every day, almost without exception, are the ones who really truly do want boys - they're not doing it for their husbands and they're not doing it because of cultural pressures, they just want a boy. And just as an aside I think we should be extra considerate not to diminish their gender desire as being less profound, because that's not what this site is meant to be about. :)

Now, the anxiety. I've talked to roughly 123,456,789 ladies by this point and the anxiety goes WAYYYYYYY beyond gender. It's not even comparable. I have made friends along this journey who are just my personal friends now, and TRUST ME they are completely anxious, wound up, all the time about everything (myself included, once upon a time). I would not have written this essay, with all the potential to ruffle feathers therein, if I didn't have a pretty good bead on the behavioral differences between the boy moms and the girl moms. The Ferris Bueller comparison is very apt - it isn't just swaying, not at all, it's not even MOSTLY swaying. The reason why boy moms may seem to have a stronger desire for a girl than girl moms do for a boy, is NOT because they actually DO. It's because they are more GGRRRRR in your face about it - they are more "I must have this and I will wrest it from the universe by hard work and trickery" while the girl moms are more like, " Oh, I so hope this happens for me, but it probably won't, because I don't have that kind of luck."

Now, onto swaying. The boy moms will literally go over, line by line, detail by detail, every element in a sway. They will take apart everything in a sway from both directions, worried about safety but at the same time worried that it's not the absolute best sway (this gets kind of frustrating at times LOL) They will send me chapter long descriptions of things that happened years ago that they are still obsessed about and wondering if it will affect their sways (like things that happened at work and medical things, etc) It is just not possible for some of them to stop being anxious. When I say "control what you can control and let go of the rest" they think I"m speaking Greek - and I KNOW this because I have been there myself. 10, 15, 20 years ago, I couldn't have let go of control over anything to save my own life. Worrying and anxiety was a method of control to me, just like handwashing may feel like control to someone with OCD. If I worried, I was doing something about situations that were out of my control. It may have been totally pointless, just like an OCD person counting to 317 when they get stressed, but I was doing something. It was ritualized and important to me (and swaying had nothing to do with it). Like, I'd go on a plane trip in summer and take a coat just in case the plane crashed. NOT NORMAL LOL. But I liked it, it made me feel like the plane had less chance of crashing or something. :p

The girl moms just don't DO that (with the interesting exceptions of a couple of ladies who actually were swaying for a second BOY) and it is NOT because they don't really care if their sways work. They do. But they are by nature often "sufferers in silence" and they don't want to bother me or anyone with their emotions. They want it just as much, are just as passionate about it, but are just more hesitant about sending me the massive 5 pages of interrogations like the pink swayers do. Additionally, at the end of the day, I think they don't believe that they have that kind of power over their own lives and bodies. I get a lot of blue swayers who will almost give up before they even start, if their husband smokes, or rides a bike, or they don't have time to lift weights, and they are like "well, I probably shouldn't even bother, then". They aren't necessarily optimistic or even laid back really. IT's just a different approach to life. The boy moms think "I have got to control this even if it destroys me as a person" and the girl moms believe differently - they know that at the end of it all, it's out of their control (and they're right about that!!) but the downside is that they end up being so fatalistic that they won't even change the things they can change sometimes.

[maidentomother]

This is/was me...exactly. I am naturally all or nothing and if I can't do something perfectly I won't do it at all so mostly I just fail these days. But I have made progress with 'acceptance' (of myself and my failures) and that alone is a huge personality change for me. I had a lot of 'help' (tragedies) via God/the universe so I obviously really needed to learn that lesson. Still have a loooooong way to go though!


I agree with every word you say in both posts!! The interesting thing is that the GUILT is incessant for many of us and it's so draining, to envision all the things we "should" be doing for everyone in our lives and it just is not really possible to keep everyone happy and satisfied, there aren't the hours in the day to meet everyone's demands. But it doesn't mean that we don't think we should. I (not as much now but back in my boy-making days) would plan and plan and think and figure how I was going to do all these things that various people wanted me to - even people I barely knew like neighbors down the road and great-aunts and stuff, and many times my plans didn't work out. Most times. But the plans were amazing and phenominal, it's just that I'd have needed a million dollars and a cast of thousands to pull them off. And then I spent so much energy planning these elaborate scenarios because I wanted everyone to like me, that I had very little energy left over to do things that were a lot more practical, like housework. So then I'd draw up this minute by minute schedule of how I was going to clean and maintain the house over the next 12 months and waste tons of time on that, but then it was so un-stick-to-able that again I'd have needed a million dollars and a cast of thousands to acheive it. And on, and on, and on. It's NOT the clean house, it's not even what you do that the outside world even sees, it's that inner life and what goes on inside your mind.

Over time I realized that even the great things I pulled off were going over like a lead balloon - I'd spend literally a month working on these huge Christmas boxes for everyone and send them out and I was so proud of them, but then I found out that most people were throwing practically all of it away. People don't WANT the big elaborate show. They'd much rather have a postcard every so often than nothing for a year and then 20 page letter. We Marthas just get it wrong when we think that people are impressed by the big plans and schemes, even when we manage to accomplish them.

[Throwaway_panther]

There are plenty of ladies on here, like me and Nuthin, that do feel a pretty burning need for a little dude and their husbands aren't into it and are happy with girls. Not as many ladies as you might think are doing this for their husbands, because it's only the ladies who are most motivated who make it this far (even with swaying) it takes a level of commitment that women who don't have the desire, are rarely interested in. In fact we do occasionally have a man show up on the site and again and again his wife isn't interested and thus he usually gives up. The ladies who are here hanging out every day, almost without exception, are the ones who really truly do want boys - they're not doing it for their husbands and they're not doing it because of cultural pressures, they just want a boy. And just as an aside I think we should be extra considerate not to diminish their gender desire as being less profound, because that's not what this site is meant to be about. :)


This is me to a T. You even told me in another thread that you thought I sounded like a boy mom, and boy... are you right, haha. After reading through this thread, I'm sitting here feeling almost 100% sure that I'm having a girl because of my insane LE diet (and the added bits of my husband being the most stressed he'd ever been, ever, etc.).

If I had known ANYTHING about swaying before getting pregnant (especially since I got pregnant so fast), I'd have been obsessing over every aspect going into it... and instead, I'm obsessing over every aspect as I'm 23 weeks pregnant with a girl, just waiting to get going on a boy!

As an aside, I find it interesting how anecdotally I know so many women who fit the "girl" or "boy" mom type, but have the opposite gender. But then, that makes me again look to the diet (which I believe you've said is the most important, in your opinion, right atomic?)



Now, onto swaying. The boy moms will literally go over, line by line, detail by detail, every element in a sway. They will take apart everything in a sway from both directions, worried about safety but at the same time worried that it's not the absolute best sway (this gets kind of frustrating at times LOL) They will send me chapter long descriptions of things that happened years ago that they are still obsessed about and wondering if it will affect their sways (like things that happened at work and medical things, etc) It is just not possible for some of them to stop being anxious. When I say "control what you can control and let go of the rest" they think I"m speaking Greek - and I KNOW this because I have been there myself. 10, 15, 20 years ago, I couldn't have let go of control over anything to save my own life. Worrying and anxiety was a method of control to me, just like handwashing may feel like control to someone with OCD. If I worried, I was doing something about situations that were out of my control. It may have been totally pointless, just like an OCD person counting to 317 when they get stressed, but I was doing something. It was ritualized and important to me (and swaying had nothing to do with it). Like, I'd go on a plane trip in summer and take a coat just in case the plane crashed. NOT NORMAL LOL. But I liked it, it made me feel like the plane had less chance of crashing or something.

This will be (and sort of already is me) within the year, lol.

[Throwaway_panther]

Has anyone taken the time to take Valerie Grant's test on her website?

Will I have a boy or girl? Can I choose the sex of my baby? (http://www.sexratio.com/test.php)

I find this stuff so fascinating! When I conceived DS I was in a high powered career and scored around (if memory serves) 80% of having a boy. This time (pre conception) I'm scoring around 55% girl. I'm obviously not foolish enough to think a test like this can predict my child's gender but I DO think staying home and being away from a high powered career has lowered my testosterone some and might at least help me sway girl a little bit.

My result:

Out of ten possible categories, your score put you in Category 9.

Of all the women who have taken this test so far, 5% have had scores that put them in Category 9.

Of those women, 90% of them have conceived and given birth to boys, and 10% have conceived and given birth to girls.

So for you we would predict, if you become pregnant within the next 4 - 5 weeks, you would be 10% likely to conceive a girl and 90% likely to conceive a boy.


Is there a "loling" emoticon? My emotions have not changed -- and I'm definitely having a girl! Haha, how typical for me to be in the minority on something...


Edited to add: I changed them up to reflect the time period around when I conceived, since I had a bit more positive/hopeful feelings going into TTC... and it said I had 95% chance of conceiving a boy! LOL!

[maidentomother]

Diet is the biggest external factor to our knowledge. Things like PCOS or very low sex hormones can sway very strongly blue and pink, respectively. And there are many other genetic/biological aspects which (strongly) sway, most of which we are not yet aware.

But yes, diet can absolutely override personality factors, but so can other things which affect your physiology.

[2lovelyboys]

Atomic
"Now, onto swaying. The boy moms will literally go over, line by line, detail by detail, every element in a sway. They will take apart everything in a sway from both directions, worried about safety but at the same time worried that it's not the absolute best sway (this gets kind of frustrating at times LOL) They will send me chapter long descriptions of things that happened years ago that they are still obsessed about and wondering if it will affect their sways (like things that happened at work and medical things, etc) It is just not possible for some of them to stop being anxious. When I say "control what you can control and let go of the rest" they think I"m speaking Greek - and I KNOW this because I have been there myself. 10, 15, 20 years ago, I couldn't have let go of control over anything to save my own life. Worrying and anxiety was a method of control to me, just like handwashing may feel like control to someone with OCD. If I worried, I was doing something about situations that were out of my control. It may have been totally pointless, just like an OCD person counting to 317 when they get stressed, but I was doing something. It was ritualized and important to me (and swaying had nothing to do with it). Like, I'd go on a plane trip in summer and take a coat just in case the plane crashed. NOT NORMAL LOL. But I liked it, it made me feel like the plane had less chance of crashing or something. :p"



This made me laugh, it is soooo me and i think when swaying with DS3 i send you some of those horrendous messages lol

[Beau82]

So interesting! This makes me believe even more that diet is big. According to this I'm definitely a typical girl mom. Even down to messaging Atomic. So many times I've thought about posting in my coaching forum and then I think "no, I'm not going to bother her with that, it's not important". Makes me hopeful that I can indeed conceive a girl with a change in diet.
I have to say, I just love all the information on this site. It is all just so fascinating.

[3'sacharm]

I'm such a typical boy mum!! Planning things to the T, competitive, obsessing and over analysing everything!!! I think I've chilled generally anywa and I'm hopeful that with dh NOT particularly being on board, that I can't obsess and be too *obvious* about swaying and ttc so therefore an accident may happen that would hopefully be pink... I'm trying to do all I can sway wise for a pink with diet and exercise then let everything else go, c'est la vie!

[Throwaway_panther]

So interesting! This makes me believe even more that diet is big. According to this I'm definitely a typical girl mom. Even down to messaging Atomic. So many times I've thought about posting in my coaching forum and then I think "no, I'm not going to bother her with that, it's not important". Makes me hopeful that I can indeed conceive a girl with a change in diet.
I have to say, I just love all the information on this site. It is all just so fascinating.
I am so outrageously a "boy mom" and am carrying a girl, I am super convinced it's diet lol. My boy mom tendencies are what carried into my anxiety and control over food and exercise! Heck, I'm on here as often as I am while pregnant with a non-sway baby because I'm that much of a self control freak [emoji12]

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[atomic sagebrush]

This is/was me...exactly. I am naturally all or nothing and if I can't do something perfectly I won't do it at all so mostly I just fail these days. But I have made progress with 'acceptance' (of myself and my failures) and that alone is a huge personality change for me. I had a lot of 'help' (tragedies) via God/the universe so I obviously really needed to learn that lesson. Still have a loooooong way to go though!

Somehow I missed a whole page of replies here, sorry ladies.

:agree: Beyond failing, succeeding at something (imperfectly) is also very informative. I could NOT EVER EVER EVER have done this job that I do here 10 or 20 years ago. I was too much of a perfectionist. I would have been doing rough drafts of my every response to you guys. I would have been so terrified that I might let people down or annoy someone or fail to achieve 100% results that I would never have started answering posts back on IG. I would have been so afraid of failure/disapproval that even as I figured it all out I would not have mentioned it to anyone else. But after a while I sort of slowly learned that my successes were among my most imperfect endeavors and my most perfect notions died on the table because my vision was always so grand compared to my capabilities. :/ It was only after a lot of successful failures (where I fell far short of the bar that I had set for myself but everything magically worked out anyway) that I could have ever come to a place in time where I could do something like this. :)

[BunnyLove]

I...LOVE...THIS!! So, so, sooooo GOOD!! :) I'm laughing so hard right now at my Martha tendencies! You hit it SPOT ON! So great!

[atomic sagebrush]

bump

[Greydore]

I took this and it said I have 85% chance of having a girl. I've always thought of my personality as a mix of boy and girl mom. I have two boys, so this wasn't quite accurate for me.

[atomic sagebrush]

just to clarify, I do not support the online test as being in any way accurate.

[Pokster]

No wonder I'm a boy mom!!! Control freak to a tee! And I feel like I HAVE to do everything! The funny thing is in most aspects of my life I'm pretty laid back/go with the flow. But when it comes to household stuff and taking care of the kids I'm a huge control freak. Mostly because my husband doesn't care if the house is messy, kids are still up at 10, dinner isn't made and it's 7:30 so I feel like I have to make up for it. This is an eye opening essay!


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[atomic sagebrush]

bumping, added new essay

[Mum4life]

Well no wonder I'm a mum of 4 boys! �� I am a control freak, obsessive about things and constantly think about it.

[trifecta]

The vicious circle is cruel: you get a couple of boys in part because you have a tendency to obsess, and then you obsess hard about getting the girl.

I have no doubt that nature has its historical reasons for giving boys to women like me but I think in this day and age I'm less suited to raising boys because of my perfectionism/need for control. I would love to be able to be a relaxed parent and ignore the horseplay, vulgarity, etc. but it really bothers me. Maybe I would have been swell at raising cave boys but I have breakable things in my house.

[atomic sagebrush]

The vicious circle is cruel: you get a couple of boys in part because you have a tendency to obsess, and then you obsess hard about getting the girl.

I have no doubt that nature has its historical reasons for giving boys to women like me but I think in this day and age I'm less suited to raising boys because of my perfectionism/need for control. I would love to be able to be a relaxed parent and ignore the horseplay, vulgarity, etc. but it really bothers me. Maybe I would have been swell at raising cave boys but I have breakable things in my house.

As you see I have a couple remaining essay spots to be filled in this series and one of the upcoming ones will be about this very issue.

This is a little bit of a hot button issue so please be gentle with me, we gotta talk about these things in order to piece it all together.

I am of the opinion (an opinion true for ME and no one else I'm sure but just sharing in case it's helpful to anyone) that because I sometimes want(ed) my boys to do things VERY differently than they do - not for their benefit but for my own personal benefit, to make me look better, to reflect well upon me - that my boys were put here to disobey me because I needed to have that tendency beat out of me, so to speak, before I got a girl that I would have possibly hurt by it. My parents are both huge control freaks (for their own personal benefit) and it very nearly broke me as a child. Being a people pleasing daughter in a family of people who are up your butt perfectionist about everything all the time constantly can crush a little girl. It wasn't an easy way to grow up, and it has caused me nothing but trouble in my life to this very day.

My daughter is much, much easier than my boys (all the girl moms are ticked off at me now saying "girls are NOT easier" well, mine certainly is, for now anyway), much more obedient, she does what I say and gets very upset when I chastise her over even the littlest thing. She worries a LOT about what others, especially me, are thinking about her. It is a novel experience and one that I have really had to rise to the occasion to correct and control myself over. And I have to wonder, when I'm being totally honest with myself, what if I had gotten her first? Would I have had enough experience/wisdom to correct and control myself? Could she have stood up to me when I was being too overbearing or pushy or in her face? Would she have argued back at me the way my second son did when I was asking him to do too many chores, or blown me off the way my first son did when I was critical of his clothing and school choices, or would she have been ME, basically, ending up practically a slave in my parents' house doing all the chores and resenting it all the time, and dropping out of school to get married because I had literally no control over anything in my life otherwise? I don't know.

The way it is now, looking back on it, I believe I had to learn the lesson the boys taught me (which is back the eff off, mom, let me live my life) and I think it has benefited her and made me a better parent for her.

I know a couple of control freakish women IRL who had girls and one of them had her daughter potty trained by age 18 months. She went to school the first day of kindergarten and pooped her pants in front of the entire school. The other one's daughter was perfect, perfect, perfect, her whole life, and ended up with an eating disorder. It isn't only about the boys and their well being. It is also about the girls, and I am not trying to say that we wouldn't be great moms of girls, too, it's not that, it is that there may be more going on here than it seems at first blush. Maybe a percentage of control freak parents out there may cause more harm than good with a girl (not you or anyone on this site, but we do know those people exist, we all recognize the stereotype) and not only is it about keeping your caveboy alive, it's about keeping a cavegirl alive and functional to adulthood, too.

And I get how all that comes off, kinda like Valerie Grant saying "you get the child you're best suited for" and I don't mean to say that, exactly, it's not that. Because I believe we all change our parenting styles to suit our individual kiddos, boys or girls alike, and all of us on this site are great moms who would do exactly that. But not everyone is. And certainly historically, not everyone was. We are dealing with tendencies and circumstances dating back millions of years, before we were even humans. Up till very recently no one was living an examined life, no one was doing what was best for children like we do now, people were struggling so hard to survive that they often treated their children pretty terribly. Children's happiness was an afterthought, even for our parents' generations, you know?

So these things we talk about all hypothetically and stuff very likely made some pretty big differences not that long ago. Children were seen as resources for the benefit of the family to be used and abused. It could have been the difference between life and death to have a child who didn't push back if their parent was taking some advantage of them. A child who was too eager to please, as girls sometimes are, if the parent asked too much, if the parent's standards were too high - that would be a disaster too.

Now, I will sit back and watch this entire thread blow up and everyone be angry at me for the next week or two.

Everyone understand, I'm not trying to give offense, my point is simply that there are possibly benefits to both boys and girls, having the Maternal Dominance Hypothesis in play. It's not a "you have to take one for the team because you are destined to raise caveboys in a Lalique Dove world" because honestly that wouldn't make me feel one bit happy about my life either (and believe me, my word you have no idea how much I relate to that sentiment, I just screamed at my sons for destroying a fragile old cookbook of mine by shoving it carelessly into a drawer when they were asked to pick up instead of picking up one of the 9 zillion things that are everywhere all the time that belong to them). It's a "these are the kids that I got and there may be some higher reason for this even if the reason no longer matters" - IDK. I find some peace in that. And yeah, I have a daughter, easy for me to find peace, right, but let's not forget I had nothing but boys for 21 years and I still have to deal with their horsing around, vulgarity, breaking stuff, constant life threatening accidents, etc.

[emshe]

As you see I have a couple remaining essay spots to be filled in this series and one of the upcoming ones will be about this very issue.

This is a little bit of a hot button issue so please be gentle with me, we gotta talk about these things in order to piece it all together.

I am of the opinion (an opinion true for ME and no one else I'm sure but just sharing in case it's helpful to anyone) that because I sometimes want(ed) my boys to do things VERY differently than they do - not for their benefit but for my own personal benefit, to make me look better, to reflect well upon me - that my boys were put here to disobey me because I needed to have that tendency beat out of me, so to speak, before I got a girl that I would have possibly hurt by it. My parents are both huge control freaks (for their own personal benefit) and it very nearly broke me as a child. Being a people pleasing daughter in a family of people who are up your butt perfectionist about everything all the time constantly can crush a little girl. It wasn't an easy way to grow up, and it has caused me nothing but trouble in my life to this very day.

My daughter is much, much easier than my boys (all the girl moms are ticked off at me now saying "girls are NOT easier" well, mine certainly is, for now anyway), much more obedient, she does what I say and gets very upset when I chastise her over even the littlest thing. She worries a LOT about what others, especially me, are thinking about her. It is a novel experience and one that I have really had to rise to the occasion to correct and control myself over. And I have to wonder, when I'm being totally honest with myself, what if I had gotten her first? Would I have had enough experience/wisdom to correct and control myself? Could she have stood up to me when I was being too overbearing or pushy or in her face? Would she have argued back at me the way my second son did when I was asking him to do too many chores, or blown me off the way my first son did when I was critical of his clothing and school choices, or would she have been ME, basically, ending up practically a slave in my parents' house doing all the chores and resenting it all the time, and dropping out of school to get married because I had literally no control over anything in my life otherwise? I don't know.

The way it is now, looking back on it, I believe I had to learn the lesson the boys taught me (which is back the eff off, mom, let me live my life) and I think it has benefited her and made me a better parent for her.

I know a couple of control freakish women IRL who had girls and one of them had her daughter potty trained by age 18 months. She went to school the first day of kindergarten and pooped her pants in front of the entire school. The other one's daughter was perfect, perfect, perfect, her whole life, and ended up with an eating disorder. It isn't only about the boys and their well being. It is also about the girls, and I am not trying to say that we wouldn't be great moms of girls, too, it's not that, it is that there may be more going on here than it seems at first blush. Maybe a percentage of control freak parents out there may cause more harm than good with a girl (not you or anyone on this site, but we do know those people exist, we all recognize the stereotype) and not only is it about keeping your caveboy alive, it's about keeping a cavegirl alive and functional to adulthood, too.

And I get how all that comes off, kinda like Valerie Grant saying "you get the child you're best suited for" and I don't mean to say that, exactly, it's not that. Because I believe we all change our parenting styles to suit our individual kiddos, boys or girls alike, and all of us on this site are great moms who would do exactly that. But not everyone is. And certainly historically, not everyone was. We are dealing with tendencies and circumstances dating back millions of years, before we were even humans. Up till very recently no one was living an examined life, no one was doing what was best for children like we do now, people were struggling so hard to survive that they often treated their children pretty terribly. Children's happiness was an afterthought, even for our parents' generations, you know?

So these things we talk about all hypothetically and stuff very likely made some pretty big differences not that long ago. Children were seen as resources for the benefit of the family to be used and abused. It could have been the difference between life and death to have a child who didn't push back if their parent was taking some advantage of them. A child who was too eager to please, as girls sometimes are, if the parent asked too much, if the parent's standards were too high - that would be a disaster too.

Now, I will sit back and watch this entire thread blow up and everyone be angry at me for the next week or two.

Everyone understand, I'm not trying to give offense, my point is simply that there are possibly benefits to both boys and girls, having the Maternal Dominance Hypothesis in play. It's not a "you have to take one for the team because you are destined to raise caveboys in a Lalique Dove world" because honestly that wouldn't make me feel one bit happy about my life either (and believe me, my word you have no idea how much I relate to that sentiment, I just screamed at my sons for destroying a fragile old cookbook of mine by shoving it carelessly into a drawer when they were asked to pick up instead of picking up one of the 9 zillion things that are everywhere all the time that belong to them). It's a "these are the kids that I got and there may be some higher reason for this even if the reason no longer matters" - IDK. I find some peace in that. And yeah, I have a daughter, easy for me to find peace, right, but let's not forget I had nothing but boys for 21 years and I still have to deal with their horsing around, vulgarity, breaking stuff, constant life threatening accidents, etc.

Thanks atomic, I was only thinking about my control issues yesterday & wondering how an earth I can back off. Reading how it impacted you as achild, which I’m sorry you dealt with, helps me realise how negative it is being on the other side. I have been trying to let go, but can’t say I’m doing that great [emoji17]

Any tips on how they managed to let go more & more. Walking around with my eyes shut & ear plugs in isn’t as easy as I thought it may be. Ha ha


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[kittendreams]

Needed to read this today thank you Atomic xx

[Greydore]

Maybe I’m the odd one out, but I love my boys’ wildness. The jumping, the wrestling, I love it all. Watching them ‘wrestle’ with my husband is so sweet and funny. Maybe I’m ok with it because we really don’t have a lot of nice things, and I’m not a clean, organized person? I never have been, so maybe it makes it easier for me to have boys? I don’t know. Of course they do things that irritate me, but I figure most kids do. I’ll agree with atomic that all of my friends with girls say they’re easier than boys (while they’re little. Most think they’re more difficult as teenagers). When I was little I was very obedient, quiet, people pleasing, and ended up with an eating disorder I battled for a decade. That was a huge reason I was terrified to have a girl; boys have them but they’re much more prevalent in girls, and ED’s are hereditary. I still don’t know if I want a daughter. When I nannied I bonded much more easily with the boys, despite their boy tendencies that can make them more difficult. Maybe the tendencies that girls have just annoy me more? I don’t know. Either way, I’m think I’m a good fit as a boy mom.


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[frankie2017]

Maybe I’m the odd one out, but I love my boys’ wildness. The jumping, the wrestling, I love it all. Watching them ‘wrestle’ with my husband is so sweet and funny. Maybe I’m ok with it because we really don’t have a lot of nice things, and I’m not a clean, organized person? I never have been, so maybe it makes it easier for me to have boys? I don’t know. Of course they do things that irritate me, but I figure most kids do. I’ll agree with atomic that all of my friends with girls say they’re easier than boys (while they’re little. Most think they’re more difficult as teenagers). When I was little I was very obedient, quiet, people pleasing, and ended up with an eating disorder I battled for a decade. That was a huge reason I was terrified to have a girl; boys have them but they’re much more prevalent in girls, and ED’s are hereditary. I still don’t know if I want a daughter. When I nannied I bonded much more easily with the boys, despite their boy tendencies that can make them more difficult. Maybe the tendencies that girls have just annoy me more? I don’t know. Either way, I’m think I’m a good fit as a boy mom.


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I love being a boy mum too , I can see how I’m really good at it - I bounce off the walls as much as they do most days [emoji23] , I still desperately want a daughter but I feel like I do boy mum VERy well :) and love it too.

Where are you at Greydore are TTC at the moment ?


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[trifecta]

Just to be clear, I don't have glassware or figurines or anything like that, but I have walls, drawers, doorknobs, shower curtains rods, etc.

I'm not always on their backs but the "boyish" behaviors definitely cause me stress.

Maybe that's why your odds of conceiving a boy go up further still after having a few boys: because they drive you freaking crazy!

[Greydore]

Frankie I’m 10 weeks along with our third. I didn’t sway but I love the community here so I sticking around :)

Trifecta I totally understand. Boys find a way to make anything and everything into a toy, and their energy is exhausting. I do think girls have their own set of annoyances but I would probably be attacked for saying them :)


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[gafan]

As you see I have a couple remaining essay spots to be filled in this series and one of the upcoming ones will be about this very issue.

This is a little bit of a hot button issue so please be gentle with me, we gotta talk about these things in order to piece it all together.

I am of the opinion (an opinion true for ME and no one else I'm sure but just sharing in case it's helpful to anyone) that because I sometimes want(ed) my boys to do things VERY differently than they do - not for their benefit but for my own personal benefit, to make me look better, to reflect well upon me - that my boys were put here to disobey me because I needed to have that tendency beat out of me, so to speak, before I got a girl that I would have possibly hurt by it. My parents are both huge control freaks (for their own personal benefit) and it very nearly broke me as a child. Being a people pleasing daughter in a family of people who are up your butt perfectionist about everything all the time constantly can crush a little girl. It wasn't an easy way to grow up, and it has caused me nothing but trouble in my life to this very day.

My daughter is much, much easier than my boys (all the girl moms are ticked off at me now saying "girls are NOT easier" well, mine certainly is, for now anyway), much more obedient, she does what I say and gets very upset when I chastise her over even the littlest thing. She worries a LOT about what others, especially me, are thinking about her. It is a novel experience and one that I have really had to rise to the occasion to correct and control myself over. And I have to wonder, when I'm being totally honest with myself, what if I had gotten her first? Would I have had enough experience/wisdom to correct and control myself? Could she have stood up to me when I was being too overbearing or pushy or in her face? Would she have argued back at me the way my second son did when I was asking him to do too many chores, or blown me off the way my first son did when I was critical of his clothing and school choices, or would she have been ME, basically, ending up practically a slave in my parents' house doing all the chores and resenting it all the time, and dropping out of school to get married because I had literally no control over anything in my life otherwise? I don't know.

The way it is now, looking back on it, I believe I had to learn the lesson the boys taught me (which is back the eff off, mom, let me live my life) and I think it has benefited her and made me a better parent for her.

I know a couple of control freakish women IRL who had girls and one of them had her daughter potty trained by age 18 months. She went to school the first day of kindergarten and pooped her pants in front of the entire school. The other one's daughter was perfect, perfect, perfect, her whole life, and ended up with an eating disorder. It isn't only about the boys and their well being. It is also about the girls, and I am not trying to say that we wouldn't be great moms of girls, too, it's not that, it is that there may be more going on here than it seems at first blush. Maybe a percentage of control freak parents out there may cause more harm than good with a girl (not you or anyone on this site, but we do know those people exist, we all recognize the stereotype) and not only is it about keeping your caveboy alive, it's about keeping a cavegirl alive and functional to adulthood, too.

And I get how all that comes off, kinda like Valerie Grant saying "you get the child you're best suited for" and I don't mean to say that, exactly, it's not that. Because I believe we all change our parenting styles to suit our individual kiddos, boys or girls alike, and all of us on this site are great moms who would do exactly that. But not everyone is. And certainly historically, not everyone was. We are dealing with tendencies and circumstances dating back millions of years, before we were even humans. Up till very recently no one was living an examined life, no one was doing what was best for children like we do now, people were struggling so hard to survive that they often treated their children pretty terribly. Children's happiness was an afterthought, even for our parents' generations, you know?

So these things we talk about all hypothetically and stuff very likely made some pretty big differences not that long ago. Children were seen as resources for the benefit of the family to be used and abused. It could have been the difference between life and death to have a child who didn't push back if their parent was taking some advantage of them. A child who was too eager to please, as girls sometimes are, if the parent asked too much, if the parent's standards were too high - that would be a disaster too.

Now, I will sit back and watch this entire thread blow up and everyone be angry at me for the next week or two.

Everyone understand, I'm not trying to give offense, my point is simply that there are possibly benefits to both boys and girls, having the Maternal Dominance Hypothesis in play. It's not a "you have to take one for the team because you are destined to raise caveboys in a Lalique Dove world" because honestly that wouldn't make me feel one bit happy about my life either (and believe me, my word you have no idea how much I relate to that sentiment, I just screamed at my sons for destroying a fragile old cookbook of mine by shoving it carelessly into a drawer when they were asked to pick up instead of picking up one of the 9 zillion things that are everywhere all the time that belong to them). It's a "these are the kids that I got and there may be some higher reason for this even if the reason no longer matters" - IDK. I find some peace in that. And yeah, I have a daughter, easy for me to find peace, right, but let's not forget I had nothing but boys for 21 years and I still have to deal with their horsing around, vulgarity, breaking stuff, constant life threatening accidents, etc.Thanks, Atomic. That is an interesting line of thinking. Over-controlling parents are not good for any child but on the whole young girls need to tend to be more emotionally attuned and sensitive than young boys. Of course there are differences within individuals but if we are looking at groups, as we would be in this case, what you're saying makes some sense. If I do get to have 2 children I hope to work through some of my over-controlling and anxiety based references about how things "ought" to be on a child who maybe more suited to roll with it or tell me off. Some of my experiences are similar to yours is a child and it certainly is challenging and not to hand that over control down the generations!

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[kittendreams]

I love being a boy mum too and as a teacher I always seemed to have a soft spot and endless patience for the boys in my class and their energy and while I love teaching girls too I just seem to understand little boys.
But I want a girl too- not because I think she will be better behaved ( I was the naughtiest little girl ever lol) but because I want a chance at a mother -daughter bond which I have never had.

[Greydore]

Gafan that’s actually not true. Recent research has shown that little boys are actually more emotional than girls- they suffer more from negative emotions and require more emotional attention from their parents. Girls seem to be more resilient. My oldest son requires so much of me, and he was a very high needs baby. I’m not surprised by this at all. In school age years boys seem less emotional because of group influence to be stoic.


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[trifecta]

My boys are emotional and empathetic but true to the stereotype they express their aggression physically rather than through relational aggression. It doesn't surprise me that boys are more emotional. I've heard also that they become much more tearful and sort of overly-sensitive right before puberty. I think we tend to think of women as being somehow more hormonal and thus more emotional but we all run on hormones. Women get a bad reputation for suffering from PMS but somehow men who wake up grumpy or horny don't carry the same stigma. (Sorry, it's not exactly on-topic but since it has to do with how we perceive the sexes I thought I would throw in my two cents.)

[MiaMelb]

This has been a really interesting line of thought Atomic. I appreciate how hard a job it must be to not offend when you are putting thoughts down like that. Given what you've said about controlling tendencies in mothers being counter balanced by having boys, I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on the reserve, having lots of girls? Is it that relaxed "what will be will be" type mothers need less "wild" children who are less likely to break everything and kill themselves?:rofl:

[kittendreams]

My hubby and my ds1 are so much more emotional and sensitive than me lol.

[LMSM]

Very interesting post!
It’s funny though because I am of the controlling type, liking things to be in order etc, and would think myself as a boy mum – yet I have 2 soon 3 girls. And I can tell you my girls are probably far from the stereotype of girls lol whether I shaped them to be like that due my personality is an interesting thought though maybe? as they would probably have what are considered classic “boy traits” ;) (they are not the docile, quiet, eager to please kind – but rather the loud, adventurous, never still, strong willed-not-beaten-by-boys kind ^^). Possibly their personality (rather than their gender) is what truly suits me best, in the end :D if the third ends up being a girly girl quiet and gentle, I may be in for a shock haha

[trifecta]

I think it makes sense that the mothers who over-supervise get the caveboys who would kill each other with rocks if nobody was watching but does having boys really counterbalance these tendencies? I tend to think it makes these tendencies worse because the need for supervision also increases.

[Greydore]

Trifecta I couldn’t agree more about the stigmas each gender face. I think it’s completely unfair to women- we have been fitted with the ‘over emotional’ label, but when’s the last time you heard of an angry woman going on a shooting spree or killing a man because he turned her down at a bar? It’s extremely rare. Men have strong emotions and society in general does a bad job of acknowledging that.


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[Greydore]

My hubby and my ds1 are so much more emotional and sensitive than me lol.

I’m definitely more emotional than my H, but my oldest son is just like me. He feels things very deeply, and I wonder how that will play out for him as a boy as he grows up. My youngest is more like H.


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[atomic sagebrush]

Thanks atomic, I was only thinking about my control issues yesterday & wondering how an earth I can back off. Reading how it impacted you as achild, which I’m sorry you dealt with, helps me realise how negative it is being on the other side. I have been trying to let go, but can’t say I’m doing that great [emoji17]

Any tips on how they managed to let go more & more. Walking around with my eyes shut & ear plugs in isn’t as easy as I thought it may be. Ha ha


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Here's the thing though - it's something that you can't really force and trying to force it is really just part and parcel of the bigger problem. Because it's another thing to try and control, you know?

my best advice as someone who has been there, done that, is just have the mantra - whatever it is that helps you remember that life really is, at the end of the day, entirely out of your control. It's weird acknowledging that (and very hard for those of us who are control freaks) but it's really true. All these things we think we are accomplishing are by and large rituals that make us feel like we're doing something (like telling your kids "call when you get there" I mean really, what does that even accomplish, but it makes us feel somehow like they are protected!) but they aren't any more real than an OCD person counting to the number 20 whenever they hear a "bad word". It's just an empty thing we do to alleviate stress but it's an illusion.

Now, if you're worried about your kids wrecking the house, etc. please try to keep in mind that ALL parents have those feelings, boy moms and girl moms alike. Disciplining the kids when they're being naughty is not going to make or break your sway. Keeping a colorcoded chart of the miniscule fluctuations of your cervical mucus pH DOES make or break a sway.

There are many things in life you kind of have to control. It is FINE to control the things in life you have to control. What I am trying to get you guys to avoid is trying to control the things in life that are NOT necessary or even impossible to control (like having a "perfect" sway by taking your temperature 700 times a day and measuring every morsel of food that goes into your mouth, for example). It is not and never has been my intent for you guys to take the warnings of this thread - "don't get swaycessed and control freaky over swaying" - then extrapolate that to everything else in your life.

[atomic sagebrush]

Just to be clear, I don't have glassware or figurines or anything like that, but I have walls, drawers, doorknobs, shower curtains rods, etc.

I'm not always on their backs but the "boyish" behaviors definitely cause me stress.

Maybe that's why your odds of conceiving a boy go up further still after having a few boys: because they drive you freaking crazy!

:agree: I completely know that and I apologize for using your post as a jumping off point for something that you were not even implying or thinking. Sometimes I will see a post that triggers me to talk about something I've been pondering in my head anyway and this was one of those times.

[atomic sagebrush]

Maybe I’m the odd one out, but I love my boys’ wildness. The jumping, the wrestling, I love it all. Watching them ‘wrestle’ with my husband is so sweet and funny. Maybe I’m ok with it because we really don’t have a lot of nice things, and I’m not a clean, organized person? I never have been, so maybe it makes it easier for me to have boys? I don’t know. Of course they do things that irritate me, but I figure most kids do. I’ll agree with atomic that all of my friends with girls say they’re easier than boys (while they’re little. Most think they’re more difficult as teenagers). When I was little I was very obedient, quiet, people pleasing, and ended up with an eating disorder I battled for a decade. That was a huge reason I was terrified to have a girl; boys have them but they’re much more prevalent in girls, and ED’s are hereditary. I still don’t know if I want a daughter. When I nannied I bonded much more easily with the boys, despite their boy tendencies that can make them more difficult. Maybe the tendencies that girls have just annoy me more? I don’t know. Either way, I’m think I’m a good fit as a boy mom.


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This is me too - I don't have a lot of nice things and nor am I neat or organized sadly (outwardly) but I find that there are many manifestations of "nice things" and "organized" LOL and they don't all exist in the physical world, if that makes any kind of sense. Sometimes my boys have "destroyed" things that matter(ed) to me a lot and they aren't physical, tangible things, but more like my hopes and dreams for them and for my family and what my family was going to look like and be like, if that makes sense. They're not doing anything wrong, please understand, it was that my hopes and dreams were inaccurate/inappropriate/too much and I had invested one heck of a lot of time and thought and effort into having those dreams and expectations. Over time they have largely said NO to most of those things (rightfully so) and I have had to reevaluate constantly and revise expectations downward (and again, let me just emphasize that I was the one in the wrong, my expectations were inappropriate and too high.)

Now, I know that I've done the same thing to my parents. I did not live up to their (too high) expectations of me (ever LOL) but the fundamental difference is, I always felt soul-crushingly guilty over it, and to some not small extent still do. My sons, on the other hand, just really don't seem to care that awfully much. They don't care if I approve of their clothes or hairstyles or friends or education choices or the cleanliness of their living space. They just don't give a crap LOL (and I mean that in the best of all possible ways). But I will still to this day, at 47 years old, torment myself for a solid month if my dad is coming to visit, cleaning and cooking and planning where we'll go and making sure I have a manicure and my gray hair is dyed (and the last time I couldn't afford to get my hair done and I thought about it the ENTIRE visit aaa). And my dad judged me the entire time on stuff - not my hair but other stuff. That's the weird thing about it...these things are really not in my head, they're for real, my parents really really are super judgy and I just can never seem to tell them to STFU about anything like my sons are only to happy to do to me (and I usually deserve it!)

I would have been a horrible mother for myself, I just know it, and I can only hope to take the lessons that i learned from the boys and apply them to my daughter so she never needs to freak out for a month in advance if I want to come for a visit. :p

[atomic sagebrush]

This has been a really interesting line of thought Atomic. I appreciate how hard a job it must be to not offend when you are putting thoughts down like that. Given what you've said about controlling tendencies in mothers being counter balanced by having boys, I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on the reserve, having lots of girls? Is it that relaxed "what will be will be" type mothers need less "wild" children who are less likely to break everything and kill themselves?:rofl:

Honestly, I think it is that we are freaks and you guys are normal. :)

Only slightly kidding.

I'm going to set aside the biological element here (which is that couples who are lower in fertility have girls regardless of personality stuff) to talk about JUST personality. Goes without saying that this is much more complex than this because of the fertility/condition angle.

And also please keep in mind that most families do end up with at least one boy and one girl in the mix so it is not really good to overthink any of this since it's pretty clear that everyone can have/raise both boys and girls successfully.

By and large the all girl parents I know are either total disasters (very few and nearly all in real life) or else awesome, great, fully functional women who are very successful and their success is seemingly effortless. I find that far, far, far more girl moms fall into the latter category - like the Sloane category - meaning that you have girls because you make great girls and something in your environment is sending you that signal that girls are a fantastic choice for you (and yes, I am writing an essay on this too, I'm going to get this thread finished if it kills me LOL).

Call it laid back or whatever, girls can thrive in your care, unlike in MY care, where I wonder very much if I'd have driven a girl crazy with my control freak ways had my boys not worn me down first. :) It's not you, it's me, LOL.

So NO, I don't think it is that you can't handle boys, I think it's just that you are so good at girls that some magic happens and you have them. I don't want you to focus on the tiny, tiny percentage of people who ~may~ (MAY, entirely speculative) get girls because they can't handle a wild and crazy, into everything boy because the lion's share of all-girl families get all girls because they do a great job of raising them. That's all. :)

[Greydore]

Love your perspective, Atomic. I will say that most parents have expectations, hopes and dream for their kids regardless of gender. My parents had 4 girls. I grew up upper middle class and my dad envisioned us marrying very wealthy and being strong conservative Catholics. I’m an atheist liberal, my sis is fairly agnostic, my third sister passed away, and my youngest sister is 13 and so far is still very Catholic. My sis and I both married men who are hardworking and provide well, but are by no means wealthy. I notice that so many women want the ‘mother-daughter bond’ but I think that’s more rare than most think. We get along very well, but we aren’t best friends like so many women wish for with their daughters. I think we as parents could learn to relax SO much more when we realize that we really don’t have as much influence over our kids as we realize. I have a friend with 13 kids (8 boys, 5 girls). She’s the first to say that kids are born with their personalities and not much we do can change that (barring abuse). Sorry I know this is getting way off topic, I just enjoy conversations like this [emoji4]


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[trifecta]

:agree: I completely know that and I apologize for using your post as a jumping off point for something that you were not even implying or thinking. Sometimes I will see a post that triggers me to talk about something I've been pondering in my head anyway and this was one of those times.

No worries, I figured it was just a topic you had been thinking about.

[trifecta]

I have a friend with 13 kids (8 boys, 5 girls). She’s the first to say that kids are born with their personalities and not much we do can change that (barring abuse). [emoji4]


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I think parents have an influence over their children (although often it isn't the kind of influence we intend) but I think the old saying that no two children grow up in the same family is also accurate because of birth order, sibling relationships, family events (jobs, financial changes, moves, illness, death) etc.

[frankie2017]

Just throwing this randomly in here but related to comments a way back - I’m reading “Raising Boys” by Steve Biddulph at the moment and it is so fascinating reading about some of the actual differences between boys and girls and the phases boys go through related to testosterone surges at different times etc. highly recommend it !!


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[frankie2017]

Frankie I’m 10 weeks along with our third. I didn’t sway but I love the community here so I sticking around :)

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Hey congrats !! That’s awesome news. Are
You going to find out gender or wait til birth? I keep thinking next time I’d wait til birth as The 3rd would certainly be our last so what’s it matter Etc [emoji38]



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[Greydore]

Thank you Frankie! I actually did the not finding out til birth thing with my oldest and didn’t like it. I didn’t bond with him at all during pregnancy, and the ‘surprise’ wasn’t worth it. We found out at 17 weeks with our second and I loved that. I bonded with him enjoyed picturing myself with two sons, my oldest having a little brother, etc. So we will definitely be finding out this time!


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[frankie2017]

Cool I’ll be stalking you to see what you’re having ! :)


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[Spunky]

When I first read this I went through a cycle of desperation, despair, anger and then then hopefulness before going through all the emotions again. My second reading was much easier, and in fact, actually left me pretty hopeful! I know we are not suppose to have a list of things to do to be less Martha, but I believe realizing my inner anxiety and need for control will help me let go, so journaling about it after the fact is more helpful and harmful. Plus I have a bit before my official 12w before TTCing starts, so journaling and processing should be still "safe" either way! lol

1. I am a a SAHM so my control freak comes out at home. I am a bit OCD about floors. My blood starts to boil when our main area is not swept. I sweep and suddenly I can manage normal interactions again This week I have been sitting on the not recently swept floor and playing with my kiddos. If by the time we move on the the next thing, I can actually say I was playing and not thinking about the floors in the deep dark recesses of my mind, I let myself sweep. I have now moved from sweeping 5x a day to 2x a day and with only 1 "OMGosh this floor is horrible moment!" Plus, I usually smile at myself at least once for noticing a dirty floor and not jumping up to clean it. Next step is is being OK with the roomba cleaning and not needing to do it myself. I don't know why, but it is cathartic to do the actual sweeping. OK, I do know why. It makes me feel in control. :oops:

2. My boys only have a few weeks left of school. We revamped their chore chart like we do every summer. My oldest are 6 and 7 and I realized they don't know how to sweep. So guess what? Now one sweeps the kitchen daily (I never do unless I spill something) and the other one does the bathroom. I am still pointing out how they miss spots so they can learn, but am actually OK with their level clean. I also decided besides their every day chore, I have given them 2 daily chores. Once again, we are trying new things and I am ok with their abilities.

3. I wanted to do a big rummage sale this year because of organizing and cleaning up our storage room. I wanted complete control. We are having it at my ILs and so my husband ended up taking over. When I brought the idea up, the plan was for me to go up with our littles and clean up and set everything out leading up to it. As it turns out, my husband took it upon himself to do it. He wrote the ad up without my input and left a great many details out. Guess what? No fussing from me because this is the HUGE sale of the year and all you really need is to have your address listed and people will flock. He cleaned up fish tanks and dog kennels, he is researching prices for name brand things. He is doing 95% of the work! Just call me Mary because I feel no guilt about this at all even though his birthday was Tuesday! ;)

4. Speaking of birthdays, I asked someone, not related to us, to watch my two littles so I could take DH out to eat without kids. It has been 3 or more years since we had a babysitter. Our last sitter was too meek to handle our 3 and 4yos so I did not have anxiety of their safety as much as the sitter's sanity. lol. I am happy to report our 2 and 4yo where calm, well behaved and gave this sitter a good many laughs. I'm already looking for a saturday to try out another baby sitter!

5. I volunteer at our local bargain shop. There was an issue. People complained. A new policy went into effect. I might have been at the trigger of the issue, but did not actually do anything wrong. Some people just like to complain when they don't get catered to and have to follow rules. The old me would have anxiety up the wazoo. I struggled off and on, mostly off, for 2 days with feeling like it was all my fault. Then my work day arrived and within an hour of being there and having that sinking feeling in my stomach, something clicked. I did not need to feel bad I bought vases that someone else wanted. (yes, it was this petty. I saw and bought some majorly cute vases first.) If they are raising a stink, it is because something is lacking in their life, not mine. I am the one volunteering my 6 hours a week so that they can find great deals. I am allowed some great finds of my own. I can't remember the last time something this "dramatic" went down and I was able to think about it without the heavy, sinking feeling. It is a whole new world for me! :flowerz:

6. My husband use to take the boys for a walk so I could clean. I loved the peace and actually getting things done. Now, the house stays dirty and I join in on the fun! Of course, now I am working on relaxing with my 4yo as he learns to rules of going on a family walk. :sigh: (why don't you have an emoji for pulling your hair out?! lol) On a positive note, I delegate better now. When the 4yo lags too far behind or forgets to walk near the curb, his punishment is to go hold DH's hand for a few blocks. :D



All in all, what I have learned is to listen to the inner reason for doing things. Does working on this project, cleaning up after someone, or organizing this closet make me angry or frustrated? Do I blame my need to do this on a person? Then I stop doing it! I am learning to walk away or desensitize myself when I come across things like this. Will it be enough for me to get a girl? Who knows. At least I am in love with my boy name pick, Ezra Lysander! lol I might, just might, be a little sad if we don't get to use it.

[atomic sagebrush]

We do, LOL!! :hair:

Yes people do often hate this series of essays at first.

I understand that you are thinking "well this alleviates anxiety for me so it must be good" but this is NOT GOOD for your sway. You are putting way too much thought into it. It is like a ritualistic way of alleviating anxiety and making you feel like you're in control of something that is inherently uncontrollable. It's fine because we are far out from your TTC time now but I do still see this as a problematic endeavor.

1)I see this as keeping swaying on your mind constantly and setting up a reward situation that gives you a little boost whenever you succeed at something sway related. This carrot-stick approach is the same behavior whether it takes the form of "if I test my pH 20 times a day I'll be guaranteed a girl" or "if I don't sweep the floor, then that's proof I am not being a control freak and I'll be guaranteed a girl". It is the same exact thing so please just sweep the floor if that is your normal routine.

2)I think it's great that you are teaching the kids to sweep but again, I am seeing this as a problematic mindset as setting up rituals that you can do and feel like you're helping your sway in some way.

3)This is solid. :agree: good job on this.

4)Getting out and about is a good idea, keep busy doing things other than swaying, just don't think of it as "wow I did something to really help my sway!"

5):agree: This process gets easier over time. I still have to remind myself of this reality that others are gonna do what they're gonna do and all I can control is me myself and I. But do try to frame this as "I am becoming a happier and more well adjusted person by learning to let go" and less that it's a successful milestone for your sway. I know it's hard to wrap your brain around but it really does make a difference.

6)Also good just like going out to dinner is. Keep busy doing anything else other than sitting around thinking about swaying. Don't sweat being uptight about your son misbehaving on the walk. Regular day to day life stuff is unavoidable. What we are really trying to avoid here is things that are not necessary to day to day life. Sweeping the floor and walking with your child is necessary. Tracking your pH on a color coded chart - not neccesary. Do the things that are necessary, relax on the things that are not, and don't just substitute in stressing over swaying with stressing over "stress" ("If I play with the kids on the dirty floor, I'll reward myself with sweeping" don't do that).

I do love your name too!! It was funny when I finally got my girl after 4 boys, it took us literally till she was born to pick a name...I didn't like ANYTHING! Nothing felt special enough, I guess. But I saw like 10 more boy names and I was like "oh gosh how sad I can't use those!" :p

[Spunky]

I do definitely associate these behaviors (or lack of) with swaying, but thankfully, it is secondary. My first thought revolves around how wonderful it is for myself or my kids.

I spent years trying to get doctors to fix my insomnia. They kept saying it was depression. Pills did nothing. Finally someone said anxiety and moved to a new type of pill. I finally got pregnant, wean off pills afterwards and then needed them again with DS2. I’ve not been on them again but have thought about it since having ds4. I could feel it building past what I could control and knew I needed help. I usually would talk to DH about it and then plan on making an appt with a doctor, but before I could find a new one make an appointment, I felt in control again and did not feel the need anymore. (my GP moved years ago and since I am practically always pregnant, my OB has taken care all sicknesses too.)

What reading this has really shown me is that anxiety is not my main problem. It’s control! When I feel I don’t have control, my anxiety flairs. Instead of fighting for control or just feeling like a failure and giving up control, i just need to learn to not need it. (Well, to the extent I have needed it anyway.)

Since my last post I got to sit down and chat with my mom about it. She does not know we want another kid so I did not even mention swaying, but just realizing how much control I need. I mentioned to her that as I was driving on the highway, I went over a bridge with a flooding river (into fields, not the road). About halfway over I realized I did not have any anxiety nor was I planning which child I would unbuckle first, if I had a plastic bag I could put my cell in so we could call for help later or other things to do if we crashed and started sinking into the river. I’m pretty sure that was the first time since I started driving that i did not get anxiety over it. I went on to name a half dozen other things that I had realized I was not struggling with anymore. (I’m not “fixed” yet by any means, but it is a step.)

I am a Christian and have been praying about anxiety for years. It has often helped calm me down after the fact, but I still struggled to let go completely. And quite frankly, still always felt like I should be doing something. Everyone always says “give it to God.” Giving is still me doing something and being in control. Sitting on a dirty floor seems like such a silly thing to do, but somehow, recognizing and giving up that control was the gateway to other behaviors changing. It switch my brain from controlling my anxiety to letting go and moving on.

I am having more fun with my kids without out the pressure to make the fun (good bye special projects that take planning and cooperation!!) I am falling asleep quicker (only 1 night of laying there until 2am... and the book I was listening to may have been my bigger issue!) And somehow our house is looking better (do I have insane rose color glasses that make me pretend it looks good, or is letting go of control actually giving me more energy to instruct the boys to help and thus our house is actually cleaner without me doing more?)

I’m still doing swaying research (diet is still giving me issues and I don’t have a clue about actual DTD) and know as time goes on I need to be on here less. Oddly, I’m not obsessive about getting the research done quickly, which in turns keeps me thinking about it longer, so maybe my loss of obsession is not a good thing :bigsmile: lol. Eh. *shrugs*

[atomic sagebrush]

Just try not to think about if it's a good thing or not. The reason I have ever brought this all up to begin with is to stop people from treating swaying as this all encompassing project where if they do enough stuff perfectly they have a guarantee of a girl. That's all. Never been my intention for you guys to take this as a suggestion to completely try to alter your personalities (and in fact I find it dismaying when you do). I just see everyone now replacing color coded pH charts with plans and plots to alter their mindsets, and wondering if what they're doing is working for their sway, etc.

Just do what you're doing if it's working for you. Avoid unneccesary stuff. It's that easy. :)

[Spunky]

Just do what you're doing if it's working for you. Avoid unneccesary stuff. It's that easy. :)

:cheerteam: Exactly!

I've read all the comments and understand where you are coming from with not altering personalities. I guess being anxiety ridden could be a character trait and thus my personality, but it is not one that I want people to associate with me! (nor do I want to have to feel it!) You will be happy to know our family walk without DH went alright. I got a tad frustrated by the end but I'm not avoiding it in order to avoid frustration. :) However, I have lots of 'boy friendly' things happening between now and TTC time. I'm not stopping my life just for a girl (and I admit when I first read this I was slightly panicked I would need to!), so I'm just taking the relaxed approach to things :)

-I won't be escaping my need to sew. My workout clothes from last summer are all too big and I need to work on the next size down. I've sewn everything before, and am just doing the size down, so it is not quite as detail oriented nor possibly as frustrating as doing something new.

-DH has finally gotten his long awaited sabbatical this summer, so I am also in charge of vacation plans. DH is a go with the flow person. Our plans are always changing last minute. I'm usually ok with it and can go with the flow, IF we made plans originally. I guess I just needed a little bit of control even if it was an illusion. :think: ...So why spend all the time making details plans when we both know it is going to change?! lol. I'm just making a list of fun things to do and am ready with suggestions when DH starts asking what we should do. No hyper scheduling. If he wants to do any major traveling, he gets to make hotel reservations.

-We also will be doing many projects around the house. I am able to hand the very large garden over to DH and just help when asked. I can make a honey do list for many things around the house, but they won't get done unless I specifically say we are working on projects. DH is also making furniture that I have designed and will need instructions for that because he can't read 2D drawings with plainly marked dimensions for the life of him.

OK, so now that I have talked about it, I can let it go. :)

[shiroshiro]

Thank you for sharing your privileged daughter theory, Atomic!

Do you have more books that you can direct me for reading?

[2curlydolls]

I am a complete Martha in everyway ... Always have been ... I have three girls so this is not the be all end all. Women with all different personality types get both genders and don't even try to sway. So nobody should beat themselves up about this.

[atomic sagebrush]

I am a complete Martha in everyway ... Always have been ... I have three girls so this is not the be all end all. Women with all different personality types get both genders and don't even try to sway. So nobody should beat themselves up about this.

:agree: exactly. It is not just personality at all. But there is a personality element to it that needs to be talked about or otherwise everyone won't understand why it is that they know a lady who is skeletally thin but still has all boys. It's not just diet or just exercise or just body type or just personality, it's all that stuff mixed together plus some other stuff PLUS a huge dollop of luck as well. :)

[atomic sagebrush]

Thank you for sharing your privileged daughter theory, Atomic!

Do you have more books that you can direct me for reading?

I'm sorry, I'm not following - books that I wrote or books that are good to enjoy while swaying?

[PINKwish16]

Brilliant read! Thanks atomic! As I had questions in my head they got answered the further I read on. I definitely am as you describe boy Mums, and I have 3. And I can’t take any offence to any of it because it’s so true! Haha.

I don’t believe I’ve been so Martha/Jeanie all my adult life, I think planning a wedding (huge obsessive project!) and not falling pregnant so many years and having to research and sort out fertility treatments perhaps made me realise what I can achieve if I put my mind to it. And since having the boys I’ve just got stuck in a miserable obsessive controlling rut I guess (which I feel guilty everyday for being so ungrateful as the boys are so perfect) but if it’s not been years obsessing why I can’t get pregnant, it’s now trying to get pregnant but with a girl. Years before I was very chilled and just enjoyed what came my way. Anyway, after reading all the essays it makes total sense that I swayed so hard towards boys! I’ve been channeling my inner Martha for so long now. My first thought was surely I can cut all this obsessive crap and especially if it’s really going to help my sway. But I worry from reading further into the comments it’s not fully possible to undo your Martha ways?? I plan to do all the reading/research now way in advance of my sway, and then get used to the diet so it becomes part of my life.

When it comes to what I enjoy I have to be honest in that I worry I enjoy the ‘wrong’ things (in terms of a pink sway) I enjoy baking cakes, especially for people’s birthdays, I love to sort out the boys birthday party’s (which are mini projects aren’t they really) I love shopping for all the bits n bobs (maticulous planning!) i love doing crafts with the kids like making cards for relatives at easter or xmas. I recently started swimming but with that I don’t ever count my lengths or try to better the amount next time. I’m not fussed how long I swim for, to me it’s just a bit of quiet time with some gentle all round exercise. I don’t care much about the ‘challenge’ of it if that makes sense.

I’m just interested in whether people can infact change there perspective on things, and if they know just chilling out and letting go of the stupid unimportant stuff in life and looked at what they have instead of what they didn’t, whilst being aware of there inner Martha, can they change to be more Mary. I think social media isn’t good I’d for pink sways so perhaps changes like avoiding fb would help. I think years ago before smartphones were about and before I had kids I was in a different place and more content in life. More social, more interested in just having a laugh.

Oh, sorry, i have one other question about when you conceived your daughter, does lack of sleep sway pink then. Also you said you were super stressed. Was that more of feeling defeated and full with worry? Rather than the type of stress us boy mums get when we are trying to control things? Do you think GD itself sways blue or pink? As in having that constant sad thought of something you want in the back of your mind, not meaning the planning and thought process of trying to get it.

Sorry for such a long message of questions. Thanks as always xxx

[atomic sagebrush]

I don't want you to change your personality. That is not my goal in writing all that. Don't even try, because all you will do is replace obsessing over whatever-it-is with obsessing over not obsessing (and if anything people get MORE worked up over obsessing over not obsessing, LOL)

All you need to do is NOT treat swaying like a game you can win or a project that if only you do it hard enough, you will be guaranteed a girl. That's it. That is the main reason I even bring any of this up. I don't want you guys making huge involved schedules or colorcoded charts or monitoring your temp for months in advance or your pH 20 times a day. Just treat swaying as an overall lifestyle change and not as "Swaymageddon 2018" LOL. Do not worry about stopping things you normally do like baking birthday cakes or swimming with your kids!! Keep doing those things. i don't want any of you to stop doing things you normally do (other than perhaps, perhaps super competitive things!)

My sway is here and I think it will answer most of your questions. Yes being sleep deprived does tend to sway pink https://genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-confirmed-girl-sway-results-details-listed-by-member/9388-atomics-stealth-sway-updated-july-20-a.html

I think that GD can sway blue or pink depending on the person. One person might feel overwhelmed and defeated, but another person might feel that they are more determined than ever, yet another may feel "it's out of my hands, if it's meant to be it will be". There is just too much individual variation to be able to generalize that to everyone.

[atomic sagebrush]

Hey, here's an article scientifically proving that our brains will basically spin and spin until we find something to worry about. Your brain is literally designed to find problems to solve (we'd not have stayed alive long if we didn't have that quality) and as you fix the big problems, the little ones become just as important in your brain till you're fretting extensively about dying from an ingrown hair and whether or not to put white pepper in the soup instead of black. Most of the problems we have in our lives in the modern world are NOT problems and are not worthy of the anxiety and stress we put ourselves through!

https://qz.com/1317993/the-scientific-reason-your-brain-never-runs-out-of-problems-to-find/