Just finnishd 1st cycle at ********

[Mollo]

Dear all!

My dh and I have just finnished our first attempt at ******** near Prague, using IVF/ICSI/PGD for a girl. I am 26 and he is 30 years old. We have two boys that we conceived normally after 1 and 2 months trying.

We got pregnant, bud sadly we missed it a week atfer BFP :(

Now we are wondering what could have been different. The results wasnt soo good.

Here it is:
We were on a short protocol, using menopur for 10 days, cetrotide for 2 days and then ovitrelle. After ER I startet on 800 Utrogestan a day.

The total number of eggs were 25, and 24 were mature. 21 fertilized.
Day 1: 20x2PN, 3x0/1, 2xdeg
Day 2: 4x4, 8x3, 6x2, 2xo
Day 3: 2x8, 2x6, 1x5, 6x4, 8x3, 2x2
Day 5: Normal genetic 1xHB (boy), 1xEB (boy), 1xCM (girl)

Only 6 was good enough for PGD, and out of them only 3 came out normal. We transferred the Compact Morula girl, and got pregnant. As told I lost it 1 weak after BFP. We are soo devastated :(

What could have been different? Before starting stimming, I didnt take any pretests exept from bloodtests, and two ultrascans when using menopur.

Could there be something wrong with me? Something I should test for?

The doctor told me that if this didnt work we could try self correction(?). Because the embryos could have been normal even do they came out abnormal. We have freezed dowm my dh sperm, so I can travel down alone first for ER, and then they take cells from the embryos on day 5, freeze them and I come back only if there is a normal girl. This seemes as a pretty good solution, but what are the chances here? Do the embryos have do be at the blastocyst stage at day 5? I have heard that the girl are a bit slower growing?

I am soo soo happy to hear experiences from some of you, soo please write to me! I am just so broken, and want to be looking forward now.

Maybe one of you can post in the ask Dr.Potter forum for me? I`m not a member (yet).

We long for a little baby :pregnant:

[Dana-Alicia]

So sorry your lost this little girl, just devastating. I don't have advice for you with regards to protocol, but I'm sure others can help you. I hope you get your much longed for baby girl.

[Petitepuce]

Hi Mollo,

Soooooo sorry for you! I can imagine how you feel. I am planning to go to ******** so very happy that you've got prégnant! Now, the question is why you loose your little girl??? The doctor gavé you some explanation or supposition at least?
So, if I understand well, he suggests you to do aCGH instead of Fish?

[Mollo]

Thank you soo much both of you!

I am too really happy that I did get pregnant, because that means that they can get me pregnant. But I do think they maybe should have personalized my protocol better? They just signed me up on Menopur, Cetrotide and Ovitrelle.

I have not asked Dr. about the miscarriage, because I am just waiting for my last hcg results today. (I know that I lost her because of the combination of me bleeding and the fact that the p-tests that is getting weaker). I will contact him today. I guess it is because she was an Compact Morula, and not Blastocyst?

About why we lost soo many eggs, they told us that it is only the nature. I really do believe that we could have been doing differently to increase the quality? At least I should do some tests about my reserves and such? What about hysteroscopy?

Petitpuce: What protocol are you on? I dont know the name, but I guess it is aCGH. We just talked a little in case I wouldnt be pregnant the first time. I will ask much more now.

What do you know about aCGH? Are ******** experienced here?

[ever hopeful]

I'm so sorry about your loss. After getting pg with HT a m/c is very very hard - I had one at 9 weeks after transferring a hatching blast grade A, (she was only FISH tested so mine was probably a chromosome abnormality). Sadly, there was probably something wrong with your embryo as you m/c quite so early and it was only a Compact Morula that you transferred. Did you do ACGH testing or FISH? You really need to take some time to recover before moving forwards.

You should become a Dream Member, as you will find lots of useful info in the members section and there are lots of ladies who can help you. The good news is that you are young and produced lots of eggs and 21 fertilised, but you do need to find out why quality was so poor, certainly before doing this again. Good luck x

[Petitepuce]

Hi Mollo,

I don't know quite nothing about meds...I haven't started the protocol yet. I am waiting for my next cycle to do the different exams then I will know.

Also, I am waiting to talk to the doctor in order to ask him what kind of PGD he suggests me to do and discuss the different options. I am more interested by aCGH but I don't know if they are good at FET. Also, it will be much more complicated to come twice!

I suggest you to become a Dream Member here. It costs only 12$ a year and you would be able to ask questions to experts;-)

Please let me know what the doctor tells you.

From which country are you? I am from Switzerland.

[Mollo]

Thank you all!

This first time we did a fresh ET.

I didnt do any exams before, because I was told I didnt need it. Now I will do it!!!

I will become a dream meber for sure, is it easy? I will try :)

Yes, this suck! Really hurts. Dont want to do this all over, but in the same time: off course I will!

[Mollo]

I'm so sorry about your loss. After getting pg with HT a m/c is very very hard - I had one at 9 weeks after transferring a hatching blast grade A, (she was only FISH tested so mine was probably a chromosome abnormality). Sadly, there was probably something wrong with your embryo as you m/c quite so early and it was only a Compact Morula that you transferred. Did you do ACGH testing or FISH? You really need to take some time to recover before moving forwards.

You should become a Dream Member, as you will find lots of useful info in the members section and there are lots of ladies who can help you. The good news is that you are young and produced lots of eggs and 21 fertilised, but you do need to find out why quality was so poor, certainly before doing this again. Good luck x

Yes, this really hurts! We were happy for a little week, and then it was taken away from us. It would have been much better just BFN.

About the embryoquality: The doctor said that he didnt see that coming, but it is only the nature. I really think that there must be something we can do to increase the embryo-quality? He said that hopefully a stimming protocol with a lower dose for 3 weeks instead of 10 days, would increase the quality. (I was now on 225IU Menopur for 10 days. Next time 150IU for 3 weeks).

[Mollo]

Now I have payed, so I guess I am a Dream Member tomorrow? Used Paypal :)

I am from Europe, Norway.

[Petitepuce]

Yes, you are definitively a Dream Member. I don't know if you have seen on the other tread but a girl "Wish" who went already once to ******** told that the doctor strongly recommend to use aCGH after a failed cycle.

Regarding the eggs quality, a friend who is not on the forum was on a ling protocol on her last cycle and the quality of her eggs wasn't good. Nevertheless, she is 39 so maybe it is because of her age....

You already contact the doctor? What did he says?

[nuthinbutpink]

Hi there. You are a Dream Member. There is a Member HT forum.

So, you had 20 fertilize? Am I reading that right? Embryo development seemed to slow for you after fertilization which could indicate that quality was poor but since you did no pretesting, they took a wild a$$ guess(as we say here in the South) as to what your protocol should be and they may have quessed wrong.

How many days did you stim? What was your e2 at ER? Did you do a day 3 biopsy? Day 5?

I am starting to see a trend with International clinics in regards to menopur only cyclyes. In the US, it is believed that too much LH can really hurt your quality. I see menopur only cycles almost exclusively at International clinics like Genesis and now ********.

Meds can make or break your cycle. The wrong med choice and your quality may suffer. So, there are lots of things that you can change for a second attempt- that is the good news- that may help yield a better result.

With what I have learned on here, anytime we see someone get 20+ eggs from ER and not end up with a BFP, something is wrong. Something with immunity issues, something with insulin and you may need metformin or a low-carb diet or a protocol change. It should work for you if you can produce 20+ eggs.

[Mollo]

Thank you nuthinbutpink for a long a helpful answer from you. I really apresiate it!

I got an answer from the doctor today about the miscarriage, and he says it was bad luck. Hard to know the reason. Off course it is! But he doesnt think I need to take some more tests either. I think that is a bit weard. Next time it is probably our last chance, and I really really want this to work! I an crying when I am writing this. We are soo deavastadet after miscarriage now, and we also knew it was a girl.

The doctor seemes to think good about me, and that it is nothing wrong with me. He says I doesnt need any tests, only aCGH???

E2, what is that?

I know nothing about aCGH, but have understood that the price is for 3 embryos, and 300 euro extra per extra embryo. That could be really expencive if we ate lucky next time!!!!

What are the chances of 5 probe(testing day 5) freeze and ET one month later, versus normal FISH with testing on day 3 and ET on day 5?? Anyone know?

I was on a short protocol, 10 days of menopur injection 225iu a day.
Received 25 eggs, 24 mature and 21 fertilized. 12 maked it to day 3 (I think), and only 6 good enough for pgd at day 3. Out of this 6, 3 were abnormal.

What tests do you think I would need? Off course I could eat low carb!!! Why does this work? Is there some vitamins I should take?

I want to do everything that I can to increase our chances of getting good embryos, soo that we hopefuly can get a helthy baby girl!!! :)

Thank you guys!!

[Mollo]

Yes, you are definitively a Dream Member. I don't know if you have seen on the other tread but a girl "Wish" who went already once to ******** told that the doctor strongly recommend to use aCGH after a failed cycle.

Regarding the eggs quality, a friend who is not on the forum was on a ling protocol on her last cycle and the quality of her eggs wasn't good. Nevertheless, she is 39 so maybe it is because of her age....

You already contact the doctor? What did he says?

The doctor said bad luck:( It is hard to know why I miscarried. Off course he said he is sorry and so, but I really feel in my body and mind that I need some answers. We are young and very fertile!! What is happening?? Were can I get this answers?

I understand that aCGH is a good option, but how many embryos is normal to test for here? They operate with a price for 3, does that mean that it is normal to only get 3 enbryos in the end? Why should one of theese be girls? And why should the only one girl make it through thawing? This is really hard to think about :(

[emmake]

Hi Mollo and Petitpuce, I'm also planning to go either to ******** or to **** in 2014 so I'm glad I found this thread and can follow your HT journey. Mollo, so sorry about your miscarriage but the good news that they got you pregnant there so you can be perfectly successful with your next HT attempt. What is your experience with ********, do you think they are experienced there with PGD? I know their prices are reasonable so ******** is my first choice as well.

[nuthinbutpink]

The doctor said bad luck:( It is hard to know why I miscarried. Off course he said he is sorry and so, but I really feel in my body and mind that I need some answers. We are young and very fertile!! What is happening?? Were can I get this answers?

I understand that aCGH is a good option, but how many embryos is normal to test for here? They operate with a price for 3, does that mean that it is normal to only get 3 enbryos in the end? Why should one of theese be girls? And why should the only one girl make it through thawing? This is really hard to think about :(

If you used day 3 FISH, you only tested chromosomes 13, 18 and 21. That still leaves 20 other chromosomes that may have an issue and FISH only looks to see if they exist. It doesn't look at the gene level so even though 18 was there, 18 could have had an issue on one or more of the genes that make up that chromosome which would caused an early loss. Hard to say why but most likely she was abnormal in some way.

You had a pretty big attrition from fertilization to day 3. I would not want to use the same protocol/meds next time because I don't think that is normal.

It IS normal for numbers to decrease from day 3 to day 5 so you will have fewer embryos to biopsy than you would on day 3 but it's generally because they are abnomral and die off naturally.

And about FISH on day 5. You cannot do FISH testing on day 5. FISH is only done on individual cells on day 3 and by day 5 the cells are strating to merge and FISH would show all abnormal results so a more advanced test is needed.

I don't know how much day 5 testing they do nor do I know how many FETs they do. I would ask if they use vitrification to freeze. If they do, it should freeze and thaw well especially if you are freezing a blast.

[lisvna]

Bbp yes you are richt. In europe most clinics use only menopur because its a cheaper substitute for gonalf and there was a studie about how menopur make chances greater to get pregnant. Also it's a more natural product then gonalf. Not every doctor believes that LH can make your egg quality bad so many doctors stay using menopur.

So I think the reason is only money.

Here in Europe it's also uncommon to do mixture of gonalf and menopur.

I'm glad that Savvas prescribed me gonalf this time so I can see if there is a difference. He told me he prefers gonalf btw but it's twice as expensive then menopur......

[Petitepuce]

I am starting to see a trend with International clinics in regards to menopur only cyclyes. In the US, it is believed that too much LH can really hurt your quality. I see menopur only cycles almost exclusively at International clinics like Genesis and now ********.

Meds can make or break your cycle. The wrong med choice and your quality may suffer. So, there are lots of things that you can change for a second attempt- that is the good news- that may help yield a better result.



Hi Nuthinbutpink,

Can you tell me more about the problem of taking only Menopur? What meds they give usually in the USA?

Thanks for your help.
PP

[Mollo]

Hi Nuthinbutpink,

Can you tell me more about the problem of taking only Menopur? What meds they give usually in the USA?

Thanks for your help.

PP

This I also want to know. For what I have been reading I thought tht menopur was good for the quality.

Thank you all!

[Petitepuce]

Bbp yes you are richt. In europe most clinics use only menopur because its a cheaper substitute for gonalf and there was a studie about how menopur make chances greater to get pregnant. Also it's a more natural product then gonalf. Not every doctor believes that LH can make your egg quality bad so many doctors stay using menopur.

So I think the reason is only money.

Here in Europe it's also uncommon to do mixture of gonalf and menopur.

I'm glad that Savvas prescribed me gonalf this time so I can see if there is a difference. He told me he prefers gonalf btw but it's twice as expensive then menopur......

@Livsna: why Dr Savvas prescribe you Gonalf this time? Why he prefers this product?

[Mollo]

If you used day 3 FISH, you only tested chromosomes 13, 18 and 21. That still leaves 20 other chromosomes that may have an issue and FISH only looks to see if they exist. It doesn't look at the gene level so even though 18 was there, 18 could have had an issue on one or more of the genes that make up that chromosome which would caused an early loss. Hard to say why but most likely she was abnormal in some way.

You had a pretty big attrition from fertilization to day 3. I would not want to use the same protocol/meds next time because I don't think that is normal.

It IS normal for numbers to decrease from day 3 to day 5 so you will have fewer embryos to biopsy than you would on day 3 but it's generally because they are abnomral and die off naturally.

And about FISH on day 5. You cannot do FISH testing on day 5. FISH is only done on individual cells on day 3 and by day 5 the cells are strating to merge and FISH would show all abnormal results so a more advanced test is needed.

I don't know how much day 5 testing they do nor do I know how many FETs they do. I would ask if they use vitrification to freeze. If they do, it should freeze and thaw well especially if you are freezing a blast.

Dear nbp!

That is correct, we thought that we wouldnt need to test for more than that because of our age and for the reason that we allways have been very fertile.
I guess we were wrong!

For that reason I think aCGH is a good option, but I am really afraid of getting no girl embryo. aCGH is also much more expensive.

What is e2?

When we are going to do aCCH now, I was told that they test for everything. So I guess that is good. But he also talked about self correction. How does that work here?

When i was in cz he talked about a new protocol with lower dose, but stimming for 3 weeks instead og 10 days. Use 150iu a day instead of 225iu a day.

What do you think about that? :)

[Mollo]

Bbp yes you are richt. In europe most clinics use only menopur because its a cheaper substitute for gonalf and there was a studie about how menopur make chances greater to get pregnant. Also it's a more natural product then gonalf. Not every doctor believes that LH can make your egg quality bad so many doctors stay using menopur.

So I think the reason is only money.

Here in Europe it's also uncommon to do mixture of gonalf and menopur.

I'm glad that Savvas prescribed me gonalf this time so I can see if there is a difference. He told me he prefers gonalf btw but it's twice as expensive then menopur......

Looking forward to see how that protocol work for you!

How was your protocol last time?

[lisvna]

With my second cycle where my son is born from it was just like the first cycle; downregulation with decapeptyl, stimulation with menopur and trigger with pregnyl.

In both my cycles my embryos were severe fragmented. So now we want to try again the long protocol but gonalf instead of menopur and see if its better because there is no LH in it.

[Mollo]

Nothinbutpink: Also, why could a low carb diet work positive on the embryoquality? :)