Does freshest sperm always win out over older sperm for timing?

[fourwildones]

I am trying to figure out why one would do multiple BD up to O-is it beucause we are not sure of O and want to hedge our bets? If we were to do O-3 and O-1, would the sperm closest to the day of O always win out? Or are the older sperm there in the F. tube wating and possibly beating out the sperm of a BD on -1 or O day?

I have just purchased a CB fertility monitor as it is how I got pg with DD 8 yrs ago, but looking at miy chart from then I BD'd every other day, sometimes every day, past O, right through my peak. Would the sperm closest to O always win, in which case I would have conceived her on O day?

Am thinking of foregoing timing comlpetely and just going with the 1 day I get the first egg on my monitor once it gets here or the first really dark OPK (even though I know some think this is boy territory).

again sorry if this hass been asked already!

[purplepoet20]

Shettles Method and other studies say that sperm could live up to 4-7 days in the female body. Male swimmers are believed to not live as long but girl swimmers can live a day or two longer.

For conceiving a boy you want to be 1-2 days before O or on O so the "faster" male sperm will reach the egg first. Eating and drinking some foods are believed to make the male swimmers hyper so they will swim faster.

For conceiving a girl it is best to DTD 3-5 days before O so the male swimmers die off and the girl swimmers can just hang out until the egg comes. A low ph shocks or kills the male swimmers while allowing the female swimmers to move on.

[fourwildones]

I had assumed Shettles had been disproven-based on the research I have read, that it may have some bearing on gender becasue alkalinity increases near ovulation, but assuming one controls for those factoris via diet and pH (i.e. I was inclinded to think that as long as I keep pH low and CM to a minimum through zyrtec and diet) that timing wouldn't matter so much, if at all (I know it is condsidered the least imortant of the swaying facotrs). I feel like I have read so many studies indicating timing doesn't matter, and shettes success rate is about 50% from what I have read and heard-so my inclination is that other than O+12 (which is risky for me as I am older) I am starting to think timing will not make a difference. (I have 2 girls and 2 boys, and both were concieved DTD close to O...)Not sure if others feel similarly? Or is shettles more supported than I thought?

And the original question also is, if shettles IS onto something-would the sperm closest to DTD still win out or is it worrth doing an earlier attempt at O-3 because that sperm that is left is indeed mostly X and might be there waiting?

[Out of the Blue]

I would think the older guys would be a bit tired since they'd have been swimming for a longer period...??? Poor little, tired guys swimming so hard and for so long and all for nothing when a fresh little guy motors past... I'm not sure...just taking a guess, lol.

[Flava]

Atomic says there are studies show that both type of sperm swim at the same speed and live for the same time. So there is no different in between the 2. Shettles was wrong about it.
Im also interested about this Q!
But then why dtd on O-1 if the sperm would win anyway from O-3 waiting around? Or the other way why do it O-3 if the sperm of the O-1 would win anyway because it's closer?
So why not just do it once if the sperms from the other BD don't matter? or do they have the same chance no matter what? This is confusing:worry:

[purplepoet20]

I believe ever theory has some kind of % value... if Shettles only helps _%, supps/herbs/vita/diet helps _%, weight _%, ph _%, ions _%, moon _%, prayer _%.... everything together just increases the odds of a certain gender. Even for me or others only having 1 gender we are counting on every little bit of the % values to help.

The sperm closest to O still takes sometime to get to the egg but the waiting sperm may have already fertilized the egg...

[purplepoet20]

I would think the older guys would be a bit tired since they'd have been swimming for a longer period...??? Poor little, tired guys swimming so hard and for so long and all for nothing when a fresh little guy motors past... I'm not sure...just taking a guess, lol.

When the sperm gets in the flap tubes it goes into hibernation and when the egg is release something in the body wakes them up... a chemical, vibration, or whatever.

[purplepoet20]

Atomic says there are studies show that both type of sperm swim at the same speed and live for the same time. So there is no different in between the 2. Shettles was wrong about it.
Im also interested about this Q!
But then why dtd on O-1 if the sperm would win anyway from O-3 waiting around? Or the other way why do it O-3 if the sperm of the O-1 would win anyway because it's closer?
So why not just do it once if the sperms from the other BD don't matter? or do they have the same chance no matter what? This is confusing:worry:

Your ph at the time can slow down the sperm... low ph allows the girl sperm to pass but not the boys.

[fourwildones]

ITA, that's what confusing to me. If sperm live the same amount of time and swim at the same speed, as some have purported, why bother with doing anything but day before or day of O, and controlling for all the other variables... (diet, CM, ions, supplements). The NEJM article is what is getting me to think it doesn't matter, ( in fact they say "although only 6 percent of the pregnancies could be firmly attributed to sperm that were three or more days old. ")

My concern with this study is that it IS a small sample. I would want to see a sample with thousands of women to feel more confident...anyone know of any more studies?

Here's the full text though. It's an intersting read. Apologies if this has been posted already.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199512073332301

[Flava]

Your ph at the time can slow down the sperm... low ph allows the girl sperm to pass but not the boys.

But we used bsf and ew so suppose to have high ph and still got a girl:suprise:

And then why ppl say Ph don't really matter? I think atomic said (if I remember good) that there is no study that prove about that ph really helps?

[Flava]

ITA, that's what confusing to me. If sperm live the same amount of time and swim at the same speed, as some have purported, why bother with doing anything but day before or day of O, and controlling for all the other variables... (diet, CM, ions, supplements). The NEJM article is what is getting me to think it doesn't matter, ( in fact they say "although only 6 percent of the pregnancies could be firmly attributed to sperm that were three or more days old. ")

My concern with this study is that it IS a small sample. I would want to see a sample with thousands of women to feel more confident...anyone know of any more studies?

Here's the full text though. It's an intersting read. Apologies if this has been posted already.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199512073332301
This is very interesting! Don't apologies for posting anything! I think the more time we post something the higher the chance that more ppl see it and can read it!It's good help!:agree:

[purplepoet20]

So maybe ph and timing are just very low in the % that it helps.... maybe the diet at the time is the biggest factor. With DS's I ate a ton of salt, real sugar, greasy foods, and to much protein and got boys because my body was ready for boys.

[LolaInLove]

The old sperm wait in the cervical crypts for the egg (if I remember correctly from IG....and if that was even correct info). They are "awakened" and then have to go through capatization or whatever it is where they shed their outer layer so they can penetrate the egg. Not sure if those guys would make it first or fresh sperm, but I think the reasoning behind frequent bd is to lower sperm count (for a girl), and less bd is for optimal sperm count (for a boy), but the theory for anyone just trying to get pg is maybe the "more bullets in the chamber" theory with sperm. Why not do it a few days and have better chances? But, from looking at a zillion FF charts, I don't think frequency matters unless your DH has count issues. Interesting question!

[atomic sagebrush]

I am trying to figure out why one would do multiple BD up to O-is it beucause we are not sure of O and want to hedge our bets? If we were to do O-3 and O-1, would the sperm closest to the day of O always win out? Or are the older sperm there in the F. tube wating and possibly beating out the sperm of a BD on -1 or O day?

I have just purchased a CB fertility monitor as it is how I got pg with DD 8 yrs ago, but looking at miy chart from then I BD'd every other day, sometimes every day, past O, right through my peak. Would the sperm closest to O always win, in which case I would have conceived her on O day?

Am thinking of foregoing timing comlpetely and just going with the 1 day I get the first egg on my monitor once it gets here or the first really dark OPK (even though I know some think this is boy territory).

again sorry if this hass been asked already!

No, and in fact if you BD before O and then right at O, the OLDER sperm probably win because sperm takes 4 hours to capacitate. Uncapacitated sperm cannot fertilize an egg.

I put very little stock into timing, if it sways, it doesn't sway much and some of the other things we can do have much more "sway power".

[atomic sagebrush]

Shettles Method and other studies say that sperm could live up to 4-7 days in the female body. Male swimmers are believed to not live as long but girl swimmers can live a day or two longer.

For conceiving a boy you want to be 1-2 days before O or on O so the "faster" male sperm will reach the egg first. Eating and drinking some foods are believed to make the male swimmers hyper so they will swim faster.

For conceiving a girl it is best to DTD 3-5 days before O so the male swimmers die off and the girl swimmers can just hang out until the egg comes. A low ph shocks or kills the male swimmers while allowing the female swimmers to move on.

But Shettles has been completely debunked. Shettles mistook capacitated and uncapacitated sperm for Y and X sperm and thought that Y were small and X were big, but they're actually almost identical in size. They are also equally hardy and long-lived and the entire pH thing was based on the idea that Y sperm are small and weak and X sperm are big and strong.

NONE of it is true. http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?1562-What-are-the-REAL-differences-between-X-sperm-and-Y-sperm

[lindi]

No, and in fact if you BD before O and then right at O, the OLDER sperm probably win because sperm takes 4 hours to capacitate. Uncapacitated sperm cannot fertilize an egg.

I put very little stock into timing, if it sways, it doesn't sway much and some of the other things we can do have much more "sway power".

This is very depressing, but I remember reading somewhere that in a "gang rape" situation- where a woman has had multiple partners in a short period of time, it was always the last man who had sex with her who ended up fathering any offspring.
However, this was in the context of a study in which there are sperm whose job it is to "fight" other sperm, barrier style. Maybe they block old sperm in the crypts? Perhaps sperm from the same man would not fight itself?

[atomic sagebrush]

I had assumed Shettles had been disproven-based on the research I have read, that it may have some bearing on gender becasue alkalinity increases near ovulation, but assuming one controls for those factoris via diet and pH (i.e. I was inclinded to think that as long as I keep pH low and CM to a minimum through zyrtec and diet) that timing wouldn't matter so much, if at all (I know it is condsidered the least imortant of the swaying facotrs). I feel like I have read so many studies indicating timing doesn't matter, and shettes success rate is about 50% from what I have read and heard-so my inclination is that other than O+12 (which is risky for me as I am older) I am starting to think timing will not make a difference. (I have 2 girls and 2 boys, and both were concieved DTD close to O...)Not sure if others feel similarly? Or is shettles more supported than I thought?

And the original question also is, if shettles IS onto something-would the sperm closest to DTD still win out or is it worrth doing an earlier attempt at O-3 because that sperm that is left is indeed mostly X and might be there waiting?

Well, the question is, does alkalinity sway because X and Y "like" different levels of pH or does it sway because ALL sperm thrive under alkaline circumstances, and sperm count sways in some way that we don't understand.

The pH of semen is in the 7's as is EWCM. Sperm, both X and Y sperm, thrive in this pH. It makes NO sense to me at all that optimal pH for sperm survival is in the 7's, but for some strange reason X "like" very low pH and Y "like" very high pH.

I personally agree with what you're saying above, you can totally control for most factors (such as sperm count, alkalinity, drying up of CM etc) totally aside from timing. When people talk about timing, it's like they think they are adding onto their sway, but I really do think that timing is just a second rate, testosterone-increasing way to do things we can do better in other, easier, more reliable ways.

[lindi]

Well, the question is, does alkalinity sway because X and Y "like" different levels of pH or does it sway because ALL sperm thrive under alkaline circumstances, and sperm count sways in some way that we don't understand.

The pH of semen is in the 7's as is EWCM. Sperm, both X and Y sperm, thrive in this pH. It makes NO sense to me at all that optimal pH for sperm survival is in the 7's, but for some strange reason X "like" very low pH and Y "like" very high pH.

I personally agree with what you're saying above, you can totally control for most factors (such as sperm count, alkalinity, drying up of CM etc) totally aside from timing. When people talk about timing, it's like they think they are adding onto their sway, but I really do think that timing is just a second rate, testosterone-increasing way to do things we can do better in other, easier, more reliable ways.

I am very taken with the chemoattractants that are barely understood in the reproductive process- between sperm and egg, and between blastocyst and uterine lining, because these cells "talk" to each other, and signal to each other how to find each other. I wonder if there is some Trivers-Willard style understanding an egg might have of "sniffing" a lower amount of sperm in general, or your body somehow "sniffing" less sperm. It would think the male was somehow unhealthy, or not in ideal health, and would then want the egg to attract an "x" sperm, since girls do better in tough times. The alkalinity or acidity would just be a tool for creating the low or high sperm count needed to create the right signals.

[purplepoet20]

Ok so Atomic.... what do we do then if everything is being disproven???

Would a TBM work if I lowered the ph?
Does any type of timing work?
Does the diet or pills even really work, so should I save money and forget them?

[atomic sagebrush]

This is very depressing, but I remember reading somewhere that in a "gang rape" situation- where a woman has had multiple partners in a short period of time, it was always the last man who had sex with her who ended up fathering any offspring.
However, this was in the context of a study in which there are sperm whose job it is to "fight" other sperm, barrier style. Perhaps sperm from the same man would not fight itself?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! I just read your siggie! HUGE congrats!

Along those lines I've read that the reason why a man's peener is shaped with the head in that formation is to scoop out the semen left behind by competitors.

That having been said, I think gang rape is a different scenario because all the sperm is deposited pretty close together rather than over a span of days.

[atomic sagebrush]

Ok so Atomic.... what do we do then if everything is being disproven???

Would a TBM work if I lowered the ph?
Does any type of timing work?
Does the diet or pills even really work, so should I save money and forget them?

Diet has been proven to sway, as has lower sperm count in men.

[purplepoet20]

Swaying sucks... I need a steak!!! I am dying all this stuff that may work, stuff being disproven, stuff being added because who knows why... I only got 1 more mth so no one post any new theories until then :)

[atomic sagebrush]

I believe ever theory has some kind of % value... if Shettles only helps _%, supps/herbs/vita/diet helps _%, weight _%, ph _%, ions _%, moon _%, prayer _%.... everything together just increases the odds of a certain gender. Even for me or others only having 1 gender we are counting on every little bit of the % values to help.

The sperm closest to O still takes sometime to get to the egg but the waiting sperm may have already fertilized the egg...

Well, I would say that some of those things add 0%, some cover the same % (so two things affect the body in the exact same way) and some may even sway a negative % and sway blue.

Shettles was wrong about the reasons for timing. X and Y live the same amount of time, swim the same speed, and are equally hardy and long lived. I am not saying timing can't help a little bit if you aren't doing anything else, BUT it is nowhere near as reliable as taking an antihistamine...when you take an antihistamine you KNOW it will produce a chemical reaction in your body and act to dry up your mucus membranes. With timing, yes, maybe if you do it just exactly right and you don't O early or late, if your DH doesn't help himself in the shower and your CM is extra-creamy that month perhaps you can get lucky and the stars will be in alignment and you hit your window when your creamy CM is just about to turn to EWCM (if that is what even sways)...just take the freaking antihistamine and jump and dump, ya know??

There is nothing magical or mystical about DTD on a certain day, this we know because there have been way too many opposites and studies debunking Shettles timing. If it sways, it sways because of something...because of hormones, dryer CM, less sperm alive to fertilize the egg, whatever. Plus, timing has the unwanted side effect of making people get very obsessive and nitpicky and this raises testosterone and that sways blue. So why not just do other things that accomplish what timing does, more reliably and without the risks of vag infections and raging testosterone.

[atomic sagebrush]

Swaying sucks... I need a steak!!! I am dying all this stuff that may work, stuff being disproven, stuff being added because who knows why... I only got 1 more mth so no one post any new theories until then :)

I know but we are closer than ever before. We're going to bust this one, within our lifetimes, I'm sure of it.

[atomic sagebrush]

Atomic says there are studies show that both type of sperm swim at the same speed and live for the same time. So there is no different in between the 2. Shettles was wrong about it.
Im also interested about this Q!
But then why dtd on O-1 if the sperm would win anyway from O-3 waiting around? Or the other way why do it O-3 if the sperm of the O-1 would win anyway because it's closer?
So why not just do it once if the sperms from the other BD don't matter? or do they have the same chance no matter what? This is confusing:worry:

I only leave it in because it's a sacred cow that people don't want to do without.

[atomic sagebrush]

When the sperm gets in the flap tubes it goes into hibernation and when the egg is release something in the body wakes them up... a chemical, vibration, or whatever.

Yep, they seem to smell the egg and make a break for it. But if they're not capacitated, they aren't fertilizing anything.

[atomic sagebrush]

But we used bsf and ew so suppose to have high ph and still got a girl:suprise:

And then why ppl say Ph don't really matter? I think atomic said (if I remember good) that there is no study that prove about that ph really helps?

There is no study that proves pH really helps. There are several people selling products based on pH mattering but believe me, if pH made any difference at all it would have been packaged and sold to us a thousand times over. There would be no need for Microsort if pH mattered.

[atomic sagebrush]

So maybe ph and timing are just very low in the % that it helps.... maybe the diet at the time is the biggest factor. With DS's I ate a ton of salt, real sugar, greasy foods, and to much protein and got boys because my body was ready for boys.

Why do all the theories have to have a percentage? Some things are just wrong, and other things might cover the same %. So if creamy CM is what sways, and timing and antihistamines BOTH produce creamy CM, then there isn't a % that is covered by timing and a % that is covered by antihistamines, it's creamy CM that matters and timing and antihistamines are just two ways that ~might!~ produce it.

Plus you have to look at the amount of work, effort, stress, strain, and potential to raise testosterone involved in doing some of these sway techniques. Timing takes the most work and the benefits it brings are so tiny, it just doesn't seem at all worth it to me.

[fourwildones]

I personally agree with what you're saying above, you can totally control for most factors (such as sperm count, alkalinity, drying up of CM etc) totally aside from timing. When people talk about timing, it's like they think they are adding onto their sway, but I really do think that timing is just a second rate, testosterone-increasing way to do things we can do better in other, easier, more reliable ways.


Good, this is what I am thinking too, controlling (or attempting to control) for all these other variables seems so much more sensible... thanks for chiming in!

[iluvmyman]

Why do all the theories have to have a percentage? Some things are just wrong, and other things might cover the same %. So if creamy CM is what sways, and timing and antihistamines BOTH produce creamy CM, then there isn't a % that is covered by timing and a % that is covered by antihistamines, it's creamy CM that matters and timing and antihistamines are just two ways that ~might!~ produce it.

Plus you have to look at the amount of work, effort, stress, strain, and potential to raise testosterone involved in doing some of these sway techniques. Timing takes the most work and the benefits it brings are so tiny, it just doesn't seem at all worth it to me.

It seems that as Lola said, timing for higher or lower sperm count makes it still worth it???? I'm sure we've covered this 1 thousand times over, but it seems to make sense. If not, I think I'll go diet only from now on. Supps don't seem to be working out much for me.

[zanacal]

Really interesting thread. I've read many times that timing probably doesn't matter but it's one of those things we've all heard isn't it - and it's difficult to shake the feeling that it's something we should take account of. I conceived all my boys on day of O or the day before, but who's to say that if other aspects had been different (if I was eating (or not eating!) differently or DH didn't have supersperm!) then they wouldn't have been girls. I'm convinced that timing doesn't matter, really I am, but it's taking some courage to allow myself not to worry about it iykwim - because I've read so much in the past about it mattering.

I spend alot of time thinking about timing, what it should be, how I'll know when the timing is right and that's got to be bad for testosterone levels. I'm far enough away from my sway that I could change my mindset and let it go and not have my testosterone levels raised from the worry of it. I'm not there yet though! What's the simplest, least stressful thing to do - to DTD every day until I get a positive OPK? I wonder if that might be an easy, not too stressful compromise!

[atomic sagebrush]

It seems that as Lola said, timing for higher or lower sperm count makes it still worth it???? I'm sure we've covered this 1 thousand times over, but it seems to make sense. If not, I think I'll go diet only from now on. Supps don't seem to be working out much for me.

BUT if you're doing other things that do what timing does more effectively, then timing is worthless.

A lot of this advice is truer for pink swayers, because DTD at or just before O and optimizing sperm count for blue IS actually, legitimately the best way to get a maximum number of spermies to the egg. (but who knows, if timing is irrelevant, it may be better to DTD 2 DBO and then again on O day for maximizing numbers.

Whereas with pink, by abstaining/antihistamine/jumpanddump/jelly you are probably doing everything you could possibly accomplish with timing, and you may NEED to try at or just before O to even get pg because the sperm can't survive a cutoff in such a hostile environment.

[atomic sagebrush]

Really interesting thread. I've read many times that timing probably doesn't matter but it's one of those things we've all heard isn't it - and it's difficult to shake the feeling that it's something we should take account of. I conceived all my boys on day of O or the day before, but who's to say that if other aspects had been different (if I was eating (or not eating!) differently or DH didn't have supersperm!) then they wouldn't have been girls. I'm convinced that timing doesn't matter, really I am, but it's taking some courage to allow myself not to worry about it iykwim - because I've read so much in the past about it mattering.

I spend alot of time thinking about timing, what it should be, how I'll know when the timing is right and that's got to be bad for testosterone levels. I'm far enough away from my sway that I could change my mindset and let it go and not have my testosterone levels raised from the worry of it. I'm not there yet though! What's the simplest, least stressful thing to do - to DTD every day until I get a positive OPK? I wonder if that might be an easy, not too stressful compromise!

I understand totally and if timing was easy and stress free and didn't seem to reduce people's odds of pregnancy so greatly, I would have no prob with timing (even if I personally thought of it as a more advanced spoon-under-the-bed). But it just has such huge downsides, chief among them making people have to stay on the da-- diets for so long, not to mention the risk of raising testosterone in pink swayers, it just does not seem even remotely worth the risk.

What I am trying to accomplish with the Low-Everything/High-Everything diets is to make the diets a little more healthy and user-friendly so we don't HAVE to worry quite so much about people staying on these unhealthy diets and making themselves sick, either by starvation or gaining too much weight. If I manage to come up with a diet that helps with swaying that we can basically stay on indefinitely, we have a lot more leeway with timing and I will become a lot more tolerant of it.

[fourwildones]

Another thing I've always pondered that contradicts the timing theory-wouldn't we have seen a lot more boys with the advent of OPKs and the CB fertility monitor if timing were so important?

Still it's hard to let go of timing when it's been beaten into our generation's heads. I think am ready to let go though, and trust that other factors will prevail!

[atomic sagebrush]

Another thing I've always pondered that contradicts the timing theory-wouldn't we have seen a lot more boys with the advent of OPKs and the CB fertility monitor if timing were so important?

Still it's hard to let go of timing when it's been beaten into our generation's heads. I think am ready to let go though, and trust that other factors will prevail!

:prof: Genius!!

[fourwildones]

Thank you! It has always bothered me! CBFM, here I come! LOL!

[iluvmyman]

I let go more this time....or planned to at any rate cuz just doing it once at O was too much of a risk for me. I've totally mellowed out after the 1st attempt though and am much more realistic. I like the O-2, O and maybe 48 hrs after that too. I'm 35 though and don't have time for messin around. :) Thanks Atomic!!!!

[iluvmyman]

BUT if you're doing other things that do what timing does more effectively, then timing is worthless.

A lot of this advice is truer for pink swayers, because DTD at or just before O and optimizing sperm count for blue IS actually, legitimately the best way to get a maximum number of spermies to the egg. (but who knows, if timing is irrelevant, it may be better to DTD 2 DBO and then again on O day for maximizing numbers.

Whereas with pink, by abstaining/antihistamine/jumpanddump/jelly you are probably doing everything you could possibly accomplish with timing, and you may NEED to try at or just before O to even get pg because the sperm can't survive a cutoff in such a hostile environment.

Sounds perfect. I like the 2 DBO and on O. Feeling much better with that.

[Flava]

I only leave it in because it's a sacred cow that people don't want to do without.

I don't understand this...what? lol sorry

[zanacal]

:prof: Genius!!

It really is!

[Flava]

zanacal I always thought super sperms are girls at least that's what I learned on IG. We did SMU and had to take the top % off because of the super girl swimmers. maybe DD4 is one lol
But really is there such thing? I don't think so.

[zanacal]

I just meant that we get pregnant very easily and that DH probably has a high sperm count - didn't mean anything else by it :D

[lindi]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! I just read your siggie! HUGE congrats!


Thank you!!!

[Flava]

I just meant that we get pregnant very easily and that DH probably has a high sperm count - didn't mean anything else by it :D

See we also got pregnant very easy with the first 3 girls. Took a long tome with DD4 and damn msu.:mad:

[Flava]

The pH of semen is in the 7's as is EWCM. Sperm, both X and Y sperm, thrive in this pH. It makes NO sense to me at all that optimal pH for sperm survival is in the 7's, but for some strange reason X "like" very low pH and Y "like" very high pH.

I was always wondered about this too! I remember the "IG guru" said Y just LOVE high pH and X couldn't care less!
ummm ok but where is the proof of this?? They always said it's been proven and based on studies...I like to see this studies for sure...

[atomic sagebrush]

I was always wondered about this too! I remember the "IG guru" said Y just LOVE high pH and X couldn't care less!
ummm ok but where is the proof of this?? They always said it's been proven and based on studies...I like to see this studies for sure...

Flava, when I clicked on the "studies" they were either broken links or patent applications and NOT studies at all. So they were just writeups by people who were trying to get patents to sell some product and not any kind of blind, scientific study. :mad:

If this pH stuff worked in any reliable way, it would have been packaged and sold to us by now and we would all know a dozen people who had used "BoyJelly" and "GirlyGoo" to TTC. :rolleyes:

[atomic sagebrush]

I am starting to think I should just do one time BD right when I get a OPK+ or I see the first peak on the clear fertility monitor (if I can figure that thing out). I am not going to stress out thinking I BD too early and then be tempted to BD a day later. I have to believe having my husband abstain along with the benadryl and zyrtec and BDing 1 day before ovulation is better than anything else for me. My husband and I BD 3-5 times before ovulation or on ovulation and ended up with 3 boys.

I actually think that may be the best "timing" of all because it's still timing in a way, and yet it's so much less stress!!! The abstaining and antihistamine is what is doing the heavy lifting for you.! :agree:

[atomic sagebrush]

I let go more this time....or planned to at any rate cuz just doing it once at O was too much of a risk for me. I've totally mellowed out after the 1st attempt though and am much more realistic. I like the O-2, O and maybe 48 hrs after that too. I'm 35 though and don't have time for messin around. :) Thanks Atomic!!!!

I feel ya, my friend! That darn bio clock really does start ticking louder once you hit 35. GL and GB.

[atomic sagebrush]

zanacal I always thought super sperms are girls at least that's what I learned on IG. We did SMU and had to take the top % off because of the super girl swimmers. maybe DD4 is one lol
But really is there such thing? I don't think so.

Ah, the mythical super sperms...

What is so infuriating about some of the swaying stuff is that it's based kinda on science and so it's hard to refute it without sounding nitpicky.

Let's just say I remain unconvinced about the existence of supersperm.

[atomic sagebrush]

I don't understand this...what? lol sorry

I'm saying, if I had my way people wouldn't do timing at all. But because so many people believe in it and the idea is so entrenched in swaying tradition, I feel like I have to tolerate timing. It's a sacred cow, people almost worship timing. But I am trying to figure out the most painless ways of including timing that don't cut down on people's ability to get pg quickly, without making blue swayers feel overwhelmed and hopeless, and without making pink swayers get obsessed and testosterone-y.

[nicnee1976]

The way I understand timing, is that the further away from o you are, the less fertile and acidic the CM is which is supposed to sway girl, and closer to o the more fertile and alkaline the CM is, which is supposed to sway boy. I don't believe it has much to do with the differences between speed and longevity of X and Y sperm.

I'm sure many girls are conceived close to o, as many of my girl mummy friends insist. Same for boys and a longer cut off. I had a 2 and a half day cut off and although I do not know what this baby is yet, my instincts say boy.

My belief is that those mums who have many boys have a higher than normal testosterone, and all girl mummies the opposite. I don't know if this is true at all, but I am sure it is a very important factor.

[Flava]

Flava, when I clicked on the "studies" they were either broken links or patent applications and NOT studies at all. So they were just writeups by people who were trying to get patents to sell some product and not any kind of blind, scientific study. :mad:

If this pH stuff worked in any reliable way, it would have been packaged and sold to us by now and we would all know a dozen people who had used "BoyJelly" and "GirlyGoo" to TTC. :rolleyes:

Would have been nice to know this back in the days!:mad:
What "they" don't know that this links are not real studies?? awesome...

[Flava]

About the timing issue I just want it close to O so I do get pregnant because I think if I do it to early well it's early and I don't have a chance for a bfp. Im also 36 here so u know...

[LolaInLove]

About the timing issue I just want it close to O so I do get pregnant because I think if I do it to early well it's early and I don't have a chance for a bfp. Im also 36 here so u know...
Me too! We will probably do the SMEP/Deanna's plan for timing and frequency.

[tweedledeedum]

Me too! We will probably do the SMEP/Deanna's plan for timing and frequency.

What is SMEP/Deanna's plan?

[rainbowflower]

What is SMEP/Deanna's plan?
SMEP (sperm meets egg plan):

DTD every other day until you get a positive OPK
when you get a positive OPK, DTD that day and also every day for the next 2 days, have one days break, then DTD again once more

[LolaInLove]

SMEP (sperm meets egg plan):

DTD every other day until you get a positive OPK
when you get a positive OPK, DTD that day and also every day for the next 2 days, have one days break, then DTD again once more

Thank you! Yes, we have been ttc for a while now and are not going to do a one-shot try for a boy....and I really want to get pg soon. I think I have made my body boy-friendly enough to dtd lots and still (hopefully) get a boy. If not, oh well, we'll take anything healthy at this point. Atomic actually suggested SMEP to me after my 2nd m/c, and it is pretty much what we did to get pg the 1st two times anyway.

[atomic sagebrush]

About the timing issue I just want it close to O so I do get pregnant because I think if I do it to early well it's early and I don't have a chance for a bfp. Im also 36 here so u know...

I TOTALLY know!!!

[atomic sagebrush]

The way I understand timing, is that the further away from o you are, the less fertile and acidic the CM is which is supposed to sway girl, and closer to o the more fertile and alkaline the CM is, which is supposed to sway boy. I don't believe it has much to do with the differences between speed and longevity of X and Y sperm.

I'm sure many girls are conceived close to o, as many of my girl mummy friends insist. Same for boys and a longer cut off. I had a 2 and a half day cut off and although I do not know what this baby is yet, my instincts say boy.

My belief is that those mums who have many boys have a higher than normal testosterone, and all girl mummies the opposite. I don't know if this is true at all, but I am sure it is a very important factor.

I agree with you on how timing could potentially sway BUT the 'official' story with timing straight from Dr. Shettles, has to do with the speed and longetivity of the sperm.

[Zivic-Bubac]

Me too! We will probably do the SMEP/Deanna's plan for timing and frequency.

Lola, I read somewhere (probably on IG, but can't remember) that Deanna's plan sways pink. Maybe bcos of frequent BDing?

[LolaInLove]

Lola, I read somewhere (probably on IG, but can't remember) that Deanna's plan sways pink. Maybe bcos of frequent BDing?

Probably! My doctor says we should just dtd every other day from day 10-18.....which would also do the job. But I am very much in the timing doesn't matter camp. As long as your DH doesn't have sperm issues, I don't believe it is a bad thing to dtd every day. There are tons of boys conceived from frequent bding though, I am sure!

[rainbowflower]

Probably! My doctor says we should just dtd every other day from day 10-18.....which would also do the job. But I am very much in the timing doesn't matter camp. As long as your DH doesn't have sperm issues, I don't believe it is a bad thing to dtd every day. There are tons of boys conceived from frequent bding though, I am sure!

yeah my DS was, although of course you can't be certain that it wasn't other (accidental) sway factors which caused the boy-sperm to win on the day!

[LolaInLove]

yeah my DS was, although of course you can't be certain that it wasn't other (accidental) sway factors which caused the boy-sperm to win on the day!

Well, there are tons of FF charts and another thread about dtd day for boys and most were frequent! I really think it's the woman's body that makes more of the difference....and the sperm count, I guess.

[zanacal]

Probably! My doctor says we should just dtd every other day from day 10-18.....which would also do the job. But I am very much in the timing doesn't matter camp. As long as your DH doesn't have sperm issues, I don't believe it is a bad thing to dtd every day. There are tons of boys conceived from frequent bding though, I am sure!

DTD every other day starting on day 10 was how we conceived 3 boys!

[Zivic-Bubac]

DTD every other day starting on day 10 was how we conceived 3 boys!

That's good to know for the future references! Thank you! :luck:

[LolaInLove]

Yes, it is! Thanks, Zanacal!

[rainbowflower]

Well, there are tons of FF charts and another thread about dtd day for boys and most were frequent! I really think it's the woman's body that makes more of the difference....and the sperm count, I guess.

yeah I agree, I think sometimes frequent release (if all releases are inside the woman) means that there are simply lots of potential swimmers in there so that cancels out the low sperm count thing. I think (IMO) frequent release would be more effective if only half of the releases are BDs

[zanacal]

I was worried about that too rainbowflower but my cycle is all over the place with the hormones (vitex and saw palmetto) and I don't want to miss our chance or stress too much about timing so we will frequent BD. At the same time I'm going to go over the top with factors which will help to make pregnancy difficult - lots of Rephresh and probably Aci-jel before and after DTD too, 2 different types of antihistimine each day, baby aspirin, hot baths for DH, shallow release if we can etc. etc. If we weren't doing these things and we were simply wanting to lower sperm count then I would use a condom or release without BDing!

[LolaInLove]

yeah I agree, I think sometimes frequent release (if all releases are inside the woman) means that there are simply lots of potential swimmers in there so that cancels out the low sperm count thing. I think (IMO) frequent release would be more effective if only half of the releases are BDs

I think this is why my dr recommended bd every other day from cd10-18....is that what you are getting at? If this helps you guys at all, my ex-dh (father of my girls) was a "frequent releaser" on his own, but we only dtd one time, and it was towards the end of O because I was doing timing method of bc and thought I had Oed already. BUT he may have had a low count from his solo fun all the time and tight undies. Biggest factor, I think, was that I hardly ate ever as he wanted me super thin. Ass. Anyway, ITA that there are more swimmers in there....and I think the every other day thing ensures that there are fresh ones with a well-built up supply coming in at least once during ovulation. Whether those guys or older guys make it, who knows.....

[annabel♥lee]

OK, I'm totally confused.

If pH being high or low doesn't effect sperm, why do we use RepHresh, Replens and Acijel? I've been using RepHresh every 3 days and my pH has stayed nice and low, but now I'm hearing that pH probably doesn't matter???

So, what DOES matter? Is all of it just total BS? :(

[zanacal]

Well, nobody knows for sure! Even if you don't buy the theory that girl sperm like low pH and boy sperm like high pH (I don't!), low pH will still kill off some sperm and for unknown reasons lower sperm count favours girls. Also, if you're using one of the gels the consistency of it will lower sperm count even further as some sperm won't make it through.

[LolaInLove]

Exactly! If swaying were an exact science, it would have been packaged and sold a long time ago. There is evidence to support a variety of "theories" about the swaying factors, but in my opinion, everyone has a kind of perfect combination that may do the trick. The caveat is finding your combo. Maybe you need to do everything? Maybe just diet alone would do the trick? We don't know, so we dabble with all of the factors. Some of us do every little thing, and some of us just do a loose diet and a few supps and that's it. However, like Zanacal said, the ph theory has, I think, been sort of debunked, but it does help with lowering sperm count, which has been shown to favor girl conceptions. So, if I were ttc a girl, I would be sure to try to create a low sperm count/hostile environment, kwim? (And I laugh at writing this because in my year of swaying and ttc, I have doubted swaying and thought and rethought about it a million times. You would think it was a religion. I have come to believe it sort of is....you believe in certain aspects of it actually being a key for you, and you do what you can to make that happen, to the degree that your heart enables you to. If you MUST have your dg, you are all out. If not, you do a little but don't get obsessed.)

[atomic sagebrush]

Lola, I read somewhere (probably on IG, but can't remember) that Deanna's plan sways pink. Maybe bcos of frequent BDing?

Yes, some people say it sways pink but I swear my husband could DTD every other day and his testicles would only chuckle and continue producing sperm in massive quantities. For 100% lower sperm count (swaying pink) you HAVE to DTD every day or even more, or else not DTD at all. For optimal sperm count (swaying blue), 2-4 days in between BD is just right.

[atomic sagebrush]

DTD every other day starting on day 10 was how we conceived 3 boys!

We DTD a LOT with DS 2 and 3, I'm sure it was every other day at least!!!!!

[atomic sagebrush]

yeah I agree, I think sometimes frequent release (if all releases are inside the woman) means that there are simply lots of potential swimmers in there so that cancels out the low sperm count thing. I think (IMO) frequent release would be more effective if only half of the releases are BDs

I answered this on the other thread but the difference in sperm numbers between frequent BD, even if you DTD every day, is STILL less than one or two releases where the sperm numbers are optimal. Plus, pink swayers are already doing so much to kill off sperm to begin with, that they may NEED to BD frequently inside the woman rather than relying on only one BD to get pg.

[atomic sagebrush]

I think this is why my dr recommended bd every other day from cd10-18....is that what you are getting at? If this helps you guys at all, my ex-dh (father of my girls) was a "frequent releaser" on his own, but we only dtd one time, and it was towards the end of O because I was doing timing method of bc and thought I had Oed already. BUT he may have had a low count from his solo fun all the time and tight undies. Biggest factor, I think, was that I hardly ate ever as he wanted me super thin. Ass. Anyway, ITA that there are more swimmers in there....and I think the every other day thing ensures that there are fresh ones with a well-built up supply coming in at least once during ovulation. Whether those guys or older guys make it, who knows.....

Lola, didn't you mention that he also enjoyed the occasional special cigarette??

[atomic sagebrush]

OK, I'm totally confused.

If pH being high or low doesn't effect sperm, why do we use RepHresh, Replens and Acijel? I've been using RepHresh every 3 days and my pH has stayed nice and low, but now I'm hearing that pH probably doesn't matter???

So, what DOES matter? Is all of it just total BS? :(

I don't think anyone is saying that pH can't AFFECT sperm, just that there is no evidence that X sperm "like" low pH and Y sperm "like" high pH and that you must have low/high pH every second in order to conceive a baby girl/boy and if your pH varies from that range that your sway is ruined. ALL sperm seem to thrive in medium pH and it is probable that very high pH and very low pH BOTH kill off some sperm (sky-high pH is counteracted somewhat by the naturally low pH of vaginal secretions and so it's more easily overcome than the low pH is...low pH is so effective at killing sperm that some spermicides rely totally on low pH to kill sperm.)

The reason why we use the RepHresh/Acijel is partly because a lot of people want to do everything they can to sway and leave no stone unturned, so they want to include the pH stuff, and partly because lowering sperm numbers does seem to sway pink and since RepHresh/Acijel are sperm unfriendly, they are swaying pink regardless ofwj. If low pH sways pink, we're covered. If low sperm numbers are what sways pink, we're covered. If BOTH low pH and low sperm numbers sway pink, we're doubly covered.

The problem with BS is that so few people are studying this. It's politically incorrect to even admit to having a gender preference let alone be a researcher studying ways to sway gender ratio. So some of this is old wives tales that are totally baloney, some is leftover Dr. Shettles (who has been proven wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt but keeps turning up like a bad penny)http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?1562-What-are-the-REAL-differences-between-X-sperm-and-Y-sperm, and other stuff is based on animal research, some of which is VERY old, which may or may not even apply to humans.

[LolaInLove]

Lola, didn't you mention that he also enjoyed the occasional special cigarette??

He did LOTS of girl-friendly stuff...he actually was a daily smoker of both kinds, wore tighty whiteys, was a huge stressball, had a job where he sat all day (I figure balls were tucked in there and hot all day)....all this aside from the daily shower-lovin.' So, I really think it was a combo of both of us that was super chica-land.