Australia up for sex selection review!

[AUSgirl]

To all Australians out there who feel strongly about this issue - Australia's NHMRC is currently reviewing part B of the ART guidelines - the section that doesn't allow PGD for gender selection.

Today an invitation was put out for submissions - everyone is welcome - please please help me make as much noise about this issue as we can. Submissions are due by 30th April, here is the link to all the info and template.

Review of Part B of the Ethical Guidelines for the Use of Assisted Reproductive Technology in Clinical Practice and Research, 2007 | NHMRC Public Consultations (http://consultations.nhmrc.gov.au/public_consultations/assisted_reproductive)

Fingers Crossed!

[Mulberry Smurf]

Ooh I hope it passes for you :) wish they would allow it in uk :( xx

[Mumof3girls]

To all Australians out there who feel strongly about this issue - Australia's NHMRC is currently reviewing part B of the ART guidelines - the section that doesn't allow PGD for gender selection.

Today an invitation was put out for submissions - everyone is welcome - please please help me make as much noise about this issue as we can. Submissions are due by 30th April, here is the link to all the info and template.

Review of Part B of the Ethical Guidelines for the Use of Assisted Reproductive Technology in Clinical Practice and Research, 2007 | NHMRC Public Consultations (http://consultations.nhmrc.gov.au/public_consultations/assisted_reproductive)

Fingers Crossed!

I hope they finally approve it! It would be so much easier for us Aussie girls to cycle from home.

[My2Sons]

I will definitely do this :)

[snoop]

I am replying in this thread to make sure I remember to do this

[1+2+3boys]

I hope it passes. I'm from New Zealand and flying to Australia is nothing compared to America or Thailand

[1+2+3boys]

So this is the copy and paste of the small section as to why they do not do gender selection now

"11.1 Do not select sex for nonmedical purposes
Sex selection is an ethically controversial issue. The Australian Health
Ethics Committee believes that admission to life should not be
conditional upon a child being a particular sex. Therefore, pending
further community discussion, sex selection (by whatever means) must
not be undertaken except to reduce the risk of transmission of a serious
genetic condition. See also paragraphs 12.1 and 12.2 on the use of
preimplantation genetic diagnosis (PGD) for sex selection."

This being the main point that when you think about it is hard to argue with

"The Australian Health Ethics Committee believes that admission to life should not be conditional upon a child being a particular sex."

So how do you make them see otherwise to change the law?
Make sure you write carefully so they have to really think about it and not just brush you off as a nutcase or something. I'd love to write in but since I'm not Australian I can not. Good luck ladies

[Eliz]

done!

[nuthinbutpink]

"The Australian Health Ethics Committee believes that admission to life should not be conditional upon a child being a particular sex."

My son would not be here, would not exist, had HT not been an option. We would have stopped at 3 children. I think people in general are afraid of extremes. HT is an extreme - an elective IVF cycle as a fertile woman IS extreme. It's also a mature, adult decision to take that path instead of trying naturally and then aborting a fetus because of gender- which IS allowed under Australian law. That is an extreme too yet it is allowed under law.

What are we really afraid of? Is it everyone would choose to have a son? Would it make a difference if the Australian people knew that over 90% of people from there use gender selection to have a girl? Is that better? True, it is gender selection but it is also family balancing. Finding balance in life is something we all strive for. Making the adult decision to have a daughter after 2-3 sons should be ok. Everyone should be ok with that decision. If the alternative is that child never exists, why is bringing her into this world wrong? Why should she be denied admission?

There could be boundaries, rules around the process. Limit the practice to true family balancing. Make it illegal to choose gender of a first-born if not for medical reasons. This is about balance. Grant these children admission to this world so we all may benefit from their existence. It has to be a better solution than aborting a child after an early blood test. Certainly, family balancing through elective IVF is the more adult, rationale means of admission to this world.

[sunshine3]

Nothingpbutpink - Really well put. I couldn't agree more. It is along the lines of my argument for my submission to the NHMRC. We won't be having a third unless it is a girl. The Committee needs to accept the fact that GS is practiced by Australians. And likely far more than they realise. The rule is able to be hurdled. It just means we either take the hugely emotional route of terminating a pregnancy or spend more by going overseas (which Australian doctors don't recommend for any procedure because you are relying on a foreign countries medical practices and standards)

As I posted in another thread about this, the Ethics Committee are burying their heads in the sand because if you want to do GS, you WILL do it. Their issue is really with the technology that allows it... but the technology is there! That horse has well and truly bolted. What they can do is accept it and put boundaries in place around the process. Only allow it for balancing purposes, even ask couples to undergo counseling first - happy to do it!

Balance in families is important. I want the chance to have that mother-daughter relationship. I want my husband to have a father daughter relationship and most important I want my sons to have a sister.

I'm trying to put together a reasoned and honest argument and I hope they take the time to consider it.

[Determined]

http://www.genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40830


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Determined]

OMG nutinboutpink I'm going to copy that n my submission unless u would like to write something yourself


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MatildaMai]

There is also the resources argument.

Firstly, it would be far more sensible to allow people access to IVF/PGD to balance their family after having 2+ of the one gender rather than people being forced to have additional children which puts strain on the family and on government services such as Medicare, schools etc… Many of these families are having children that (they would not otherwise have had) if their 2nd or 3rd child had been of the opposite gender.

Secondly, those people who want to do it are spending tens of thousands of dollars travelling to Thailand and the US to pursue GS. That money could be spent here. Genea is supporting SART in Thailand bc there is money to be made in this area. Why not keep the money in the country to benefit our economy rather than send it overseas?

On a related point there are potential benefits in having fertile women using IVF services as they may be willing to donate left over embryos to infertile couples or to research which can only benefit the IVF clinics and the infertile couples that use them. There is a desperate shortage of egg donors and embryos in Australia.

[Determined]

Great points I'm going to write some points in my submission and if ok use these points. I have one of my boys at preschool so have an hr to quickly prepare this. These idiots do not deserve any more of my time but the argument will be there. Keep spreading the news. Who knows if genea is writing anything ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1+2+3boys]

Great responses so far :) I really enjoyed reading them and I truely hope the laws can change in Australia

[Girlfriend]

All you girls are so right. The law in Australia is just so frustrating and we all need to write to try and change it for the benefit of everyone. I'm def going to do it.

[snoop]

Why limit it to 2+ of the one gender? We have one DS and two is the most children we will consider having, and still want a daughter to balance our family


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[Determined]

Snoop you have the opportunity to submit ur viewpoint it's important u do


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brinny]

Wonderful! I will be writing about how many couples spend Australian $$ overseas, and how much $$ would be better spent in Australia. Because like it or not, people who are willing to do GS will go overseas


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MatildaMai]

The 2+ is something I've picked up over the years from speaking with medical and other people involved in the legislative reviews and the initial banning of GS which occurred several years ago. In Australia at least there is a great deal of resistance to people using it to conceive their 1st or 2nd child. There seems to be much less resistance if the family has 2+ of the same gender. I think if it ever gets approved it will only be in those circumstances. Maybe its due to the fact that most people are not keen on big families, esp in metro areas. 3-4 seems to be the max. And in many cases that 3rd or 4th was to try for the opposite gender. I think if it would stop people like me having families of 6 kids some people would be in favour of GS being approved.

[Determined]

Matilda I was looking at past forum discussions in this space and read a comment about an old person on board who is anti gs , religious and seems to control the board. Do u have Any further insight? Do u really think aust has a chance or it's just a politically stunt to consult with public ? Do u think genea would be involved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MatildaMai]

The board is the board. I think until the composition of it changes its going to be hard to get it through. Australia was an incredibly conservative country when they banned GS in 2004 and it still is. And it doesn't help that every time someone does a poll 4 out of 5 say they are against GS! Mind you (as one of the articles I've copied in below points out) when you get couples in the privacy of an IVF clinic over 50% of them say they'd like to choose the sex of the baby! Thats the weird thing about GS - privately most have a preference whether its a pigeon pair, or more boys than girls or vice versa. But actually admitting any sort of preference is taboo - like it makes you a bad person or parent or something.

I'd be amazed if Genea and the other major IVF clinics were not making submissions and pushing hard. They are monitoring those of us that go overseas. Its not just dozens of us anymore. They know there are hundreds and hundreds of us in Australia now going each year. They see first hand the lengths we are willing to go to and the $$ we are willing to spend. $$ we'd otherwise be spending with them. And most of us don't have fertility issues (unlike their usual patients) so it would be easy $ and great for their success rates!

Genea has been forced to set up a joint venture with SART to try and recapture some of this revenue. That is how financially worthwhile this is to them. The article below says Genea saw 120 couples go to SART for GS in 18mth period. I'm sure there are that many again (at least) going to the US or other Asian clinics in Malaysia and Thailand, and then there are those of us who manage to get around then ban and cycle here.

I think whatever arguments we as individuals make are unfortunately neither here nor there. This will actually be won and lost on the business case put by the clinics. That, and perhaps on the grounds of the potential danger to citizens health by travelling for medical procedures. If there is one thing Australia is, it is protectionist towards its industries and convinced that it knows what's best for us all!

Australian couples travel overseas to avoid ban on choosing their baby's sex - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-01/ivf-gender-sex-selection-thailand-clinic-baby-foetus/4927340)

Baby sex-selection tours increasingly popular with Australian couples using IVF | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/baby-sex-selection-tours-increasingly-popular-with-australian-couples-using-ivf/story-fnet08ck-1226635204544)

[Determined]

Interesting quote from first article "Many fertility specialists in Australia believe that under the right circumstances and with the right counselling, it probably is a treatment that should be offered in Australia," he said.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Determined]

So how could this change benefit the board? If we think about $$$$$ for them. Isn't that how we all work slaves to a financial system filled with politics


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Determined]

It's just a thought but I'm keen to hear viewpoint on how Nhmrc can benefit from this? I'm thinking something in the research space


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[3boys531]

I know of dr's and Genea dr's as well that are on the board pushing for this. They think the laws are stupid and if they could they would change it but unfortunately they can't. One day maybe. Maybe for our children.

[sunshine3]

Determined - the details of the working committee who are reviewing Part B are here:

https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/health-ethics/ethical-issues/assisted-reproductive-technology-art/assisted-reproductive-technology-a

The page includes a PDF link (ART Working Committee) that shows the names, experience and declaration of interests of committee members. These are the people who will be drafting the guidelines and making recommendations to the Aust. Health Ethics Committee (who I believe make the final decision).

The members of the Aust. Health Ethics Committee are here:

Australian Health Ethics Committee (AHEC) | National Health and Medical Research Council (http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/about/committees-nhmrc/australian-health-ethics-committee-ahec)

I don't know if you will recognise any names from the old post you said you were reading. Based on a super quick google search I can't really tell who the "pro GS" ones would be.

I haven't thought how GS could benefit the NHMRC... but if you come up with one it would be a great angle! Have you finalised your submission yet?

[Brinny]

I simply said that some families are spending up to $150,000 on IVF/PGD and that money would be better spent on the Australian Health System, rather than overseas :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brinny]

Anyone else want to do a submission? Bump


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Determined]

Already have


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1+2+3boys]

I remember reading a while back about this old dude on the board who was totally against it and that nothing will change until he is gone. I hope that is not still the case.

[AUSgirl]

Sent mine in last night. I have no idea about our chances, but the more the better, right? Loved reading all your opinions on here too - all so true. I've even got my mum making a submission pro GS! :) Thanks everyone. Heres hoping.

[jontez]

Do you have to do a submission for all the different sections or can I just do the sex selection part?

[Determined]

You can do it for any component not just all of it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1+2+3boys]

Not sure what others will think of this and I am dubious to comment but I thought I would put it out there anyway as I feel this is a safe place where I will not be judged. They say they do not think entry to life should be based on gender. Then what if they allowed gender selection but 'opposite' embryos had to be donated. Then they would still be given a chance at life too.
I know heaps of people will disagree with this and I am not sure if I could donate my embryos/ my child to another couple myself but I thought it could at least be a start to getting GS back in Australia. Better back with such a rule than not at all? I don't know, it would make me think about how much I really wanted it I suppose. Would I gift someone else a son of mine, my childrens' full sibling, so that I could have a daughter?
Anyway, it could help 'solve' the whole reason why they don't do it

[Mumof3girls]

Not sure what others will think of this and I am dubious to comment but I thought I would put it out there anyway as I feel this is a safe place where I will not be judged. They say they do not think entry to life should be based on gender. Then what if they allowed gender selection but 'opposite' embryos had to be donated. Then they would still be given a chance at life too.
I know heaps of people will disagree with this and I am not sure if I could donate my embryos/ my child to another couple myself but I thought it could at least be a start to getting GS back in Australia. Better back with such a rule than not at all? I don't know, it would make me think about how much I really wanted it I suppose. Would I gift someone else a son of mine, my childrens' full sibling, so that I could have a daughter?
Anyway, it could help 'solve' the whole reason why they don't do it

I was thinking along the same lines but instead of making it compulsory to donate embryos there would be people out there willing to donate & therefore provide a better outcome for people that would like donated embryos.
My husband & I filled out all the forms to donate our embryos & when we got to HRC I was having second thoughts about it butwe didn't end up with any to donate.

[sunshine3]

Not sure what others will think of this and I am dubious to comment but I thought I would put it out there anyway as I feel this is a safe place where I will not be judged. They say they do not think entry to life should be based on gender. Then what if they allowed gender selection but 'opposite' embryos had to be donated. Then they would still be given a chance at life too.
I know heaps of people will disagree with this and I am not sure if I could donate my embryos/ my child to another couple myself but I thought it could at least be a start to getting GS back in Australia. Better back with such a rule than not at all? I don't know, it would make me think about how much I really wanted it I suppose. Would I gift someone else a son of mine, my childrens' full sibling, so that I could have a daughter?
Anyway, it could help 'solve' the whole reason why they don't do it

Very interesting idea. And I agree it has got me thinking. I always thought I couldn't donate any of my spare embryos. Would I do it if it meant I could get my girl? I do not know. That would require a lot of soul searching.

I wonder though if the NHMRC would then need to apply the same rule to couples who just do IVF (for a baby of any gender). What do they currently do with any spare embryos they don't want?

[LJ81]

I'm about to start drafting a submission but I can't figure out exactly which question on the template it is that I am answering - please could someone who has drafted a submission clarify for me? Ta!

[glory]

LJ, so you have to read what the current ethical guildline is, it is part 11 of the first link.

Then download the second link and delete all the questions except q11 and fill in those questions. You need to have a header page when you sent it in and decide whether you want it confidential or not.

[glory]

Ladies, I don't think it needs to be complicated. Donation of embryos is VERY complicated. In Australia your embryos that are donated can then contact you at age 18, how will you explain that to your children, especially if the possible the twin or triplet to your GS child comes knocking on the door.

Australia is pretty simple and this would be out of it's league.

For me, I believe it comes down to this, they should allow gender selection to those with a set number of one gender. This pretty much cancels out any argument that we will overpopulate with boys, or we can have a pigeon pair family or we regard boys culturally better than girls.

It should not be paid for on Medicare (which I would believe most people when it was available would of been able to do) we all know how easy it is to get through as an 'ivf patient' or get 'pbs' meds. So they would have to make some kind of cut off with, if you do IVF it is covered but if you do PGD and select gender, none is covered whether infertile or not. I just don't see any other way of every single one of us walking into an IVF clinic, saying we have tried for 6 months, so if we are doing IVF, can I put a girl in ;)

[glory]

I wonder though if the NHMRC would then need to apply the same rule to couples who just do IVF (for a baby of any gender). What do they currently do with any spare embryos they don't want?

My PGD embryos are in Sydney and I have the choice each 6 months to renew and keep them frozen, to donate them, to let them succumb or donate them to science.

Where the frozen embryo donation also falls short is do you put a limit on how long you can keep your embryos for? Personally I am done, but there is nothing to stop me putting back and embryo even in another 20 years, so you would just say I still want more babies.... it would just be too hard to make that kind of ruling.

[littlefishy]

Oh I hope they change the laws. My partner and I wish to have a 'pigeon pair' seeing his ex-wife kept it disclosed to him that she had a heredity disease, and had children with him.He wants to have grandchildren.

[jas1828]

Is there any word on the review?

[1+2+3boys]

I have been wondering this too as Aus would be so much easier

[mear1006]

Wondering if this review will ever take place in Australia?

[1+2+3boys]

God I hope so. I just found out today that we wont be able to go to Cz to do it. We could save for the cycle cost alone in America but the cost travel from NZ plus accomodation makes it many years away for us. I'm so sad about it. I just want a daughter to complete my wonderful family of boys and I'll love them all equally. Nothing wrong with what I want, it's totally natural. But she will be so much younger and it will be all so stressful being so far from home

[mear1006]

I tried to look on their website but it was so confusing I couldn't find much. I know I read it's supposed to be reviewed in 2015 but I have no idea if it's at the start or end of the year.

I have my fingers crossed for you 1+2+3 boys. I'm sure all those beautiful boys keep you busy xx

[Mercboys]

Go guys does anyone have any further info? I contacted GENAE but they said they think if anything the laws will get harder? I've emails the Health company but I didnt get much help!

[mear1006]

I did a quick search and couldn't find anything either. Isn't looking very promising for Australia any time soon.
Did Genae have any time line info on when they were suppose to conduct the review?

[Mercboys]

Sorry for the late reply, I heard it was late June but we'll see soon I guess? If I find any more I'll let you know

[Magical22]

Sub


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KTU108]

Does anyone know what is happening with this review?

[mear1006]

I think Mercboys heard from genea that the review may take place late June. Hard to know if it will ever really happen.

[3boys531]

Apparently it's now June 2016. ��

[mear1006]

Did you hear from from genea 3boys531?

[3boys531]

Did you hear from from genea 3boys531?

I heard this from a dr at IVF Aust.

[KTU108]

I doubt it will become legal - in counties where it is banned, it has never been overturned. No point in waiting for this review.

[mear1006]

I agree!

I doubt the review will ever actually take place. It will just get pushed back and back.

[Magical22]

http://consultations.nhmrc.gov.au/files/consultations/drafts/artdraftethicalguidelines150722.pdf

Up for review.

They have opened It up for public comment specifically on gender selection regarding family balancing


The more people in favour the better.

Error Page (http://m.adelaidenow.com.au/news/national/ban-on-selecting-the-gender-of-your-child-could-be-lifted/story-fntzoymf-1227454478388)


Ethics of IVF gender selection under the microscope | smh.com.au (http://m.smh.com.au/national/health/ethics-of-ivf-gender-selection-under-the-microscope-20150723-gij4s2).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Magical22]

Error Page (http://m.adelaidenow.com.au/news/national/ban-on-selecting-the-gender-of-your-child-could-be-lifted/story-fntzoymf-1227454478388)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AUSgirl]

Thanks, I saw this news today too :)

Seems they have completed the draft of part B - except for the sex selection section - on which they are seeking further consultation. Good news I think?!

Ethical guidelines on the use of assisted reproductive technology in clinical practice and research | NHMRC Public Consultations (http://consultations.nhmrc.gov.au/public_consultations/assisted-reproductive-tech)

There were 65 submissions during the initial consultation period.. I guess many must have been regarding gender selection.

I'll make another submission this time around. Closing date is 17th September. I agree..the more people in favour the better. Let's do this! :)

[AUSgirl]

If you're thinking of participating, be sure to read pages 55 - 58 of the draft. Particular discussion points of interest, and relevant case studies.

[WannaGirl]

Well I'm definitely putting in a submission, will give me something to do. Also need to look into do i increase healthcare to top cover which includes ivf...wow I thought I was over HT.

[WannaGirl]

This has really brought it all back for me, I guess it will be a year at least before the law is changed, if at all.
Couples are having children later in life, if this was available with no limitations like US, in hindsight I would go through ivf when I was engaged to my hubby at 28 and get what 20 embryos and then see what happened naturally then balance off my family from my earlier and hopefully more successful ivf round than 10 years on. I would happily donate leftover embryos with anonymity or even do a free round of egg retrieval.
I don't mind limitations, at the moment I have 3 children, there will be no guess work so that's it unless I get a gender guarantee, I can't produce a girl naturally it seems.

[MummaBear]

I know it may seem pointless to put a submission forward as yes it would be an uphill battle to get them to change it but since baby gammy they have really had to look at the problems posed by couples going overseas for donor eggs and yes gender selection. The fact that this was up for review over the last 12months and they didn't just say no at the end of the review period is a little promising. They decided they couldn't make a proper decision without more public consultation to see if the view on this had changed. The more people who submit a review the better.

this is my submission. its long but worth a read if u have time. it covers one VERY important point about abortion being legal here in Australia and the loop hole thats been created due to the NIPT test

I am writing to express my views in regards to the use of ART and gender selection here in Australia.
I believe it should be allowed following very strict guide lines of family balancing for those families of 2 or more of the same gender.
My Story

I am a mother of 3 boys soon to be 4. We have tried every old wives tale gender sway technique and still have been unable to again naturally conceive the female child our family longs for.
We both love all of our boys and would not change any of them. When I found out my 3rd child was a boy I was a little upset not because he was a boy but because it still wasn’t the little girl I have always believed I was going to have. My husband and I had always planned on 4 children so we still had one more chance. I had lost a little girl. My first pregnancy was a girl but sadly I miscarried her at 10weeks (trisomy 16 – a completely random event and most common form of early miscarriage). I knew it was possible for us to conceive a girl and at the time we didn’t really want to invest all our savings into traveling overseas for IVF/PGD gender selection. We believed we could have a girl naturally with a lot of effort on us to use the sway techniques I had spent endless hours researching.

When we fell pregnant again I was positive it was a girl, we had put all our effort for months into swaying and surely it had worked. I decided to go with the new genetic testing to find out the gender early. Having 3 boys already the comments when people find out you are pregnant again are very ‘it has to be a girl’, ‘I bet you hope it’s a girl’ etc. This actually makes gender disappointment even worse and I wanted to stop these comments before they began so I wanted to find out gender before we announced it to anyone.

At 11 weeks I found out I was having another little boy. My world came crashing down. Whilst I was happy he was healthy this time being our final child my lifelong dream of having a daughter was gone in an instant. I still haven’t announced this pregnancy as I now feel very protective over this little man and worry people will feel he is unwanted as they know I would have loved a daughter. Again this is not the case but I feel I need to protect him from people and their thoughtlessness. Society is apparently against gender selection but the pressure they put on couples to have both boys and girls is incredible and anyone who has a one gender family receives endless bombardments of comments about having a child of the opposite gender. I have random strangers come up to me and say I have to have a girl as being a mother to a girl is completely different to that of being a mother to a boy, again thoughtless comments that don’t help. People who can clearly see I’m pregnant ask and I say it’s a boy but I have to follow up with a 20 minute speech about us being over the moon happy it’s another boy and yes it will be extremely crazy in our house but we wouldn’t change if for the world. This is normally followed up by wow you will be completely outnumbered. Yes thank you for that completely obvious observation.

This grief though was something I had never felt before and to make it worse I had to keep it to myself. I went through all the guilt of, I should be happy I have another healthy gorgeous boy on the way all whilst I was trying to come to terms with essentially losing my daughter. Ethically in Australia I could have legally chosen to abort this baby and as we only ever wanted 4 children and if I had aborted we could try again for a girl. It was before 12weeks and it was heavily affecting my mental health. In saying this although it did cross my mind as it was an option, I personally would never ever abort my baby he is still my baby and I love him with all my heart and I could never live with myself for doing something like that but I do know of couples using this option as it is the only form of gender selection available to them here in Australia. So the ultimate question we have to ask ourselves is: It is less ethical to abort a life already created or let couples chose the gender whilst it’s still just a clump of cells? The NIPT blood test enables couples to find out the gender of their unborn baby before 12weeks so has created a loop hole where couples can legally terminate the child of unwanted gender. We are progressive enough in this country to allow abortion but not gender selection for family balancing of usually large families?

The next few months I found myself really struggling and this is not something I am used to. I have never found having 3 kids hard I have always considered myself a natural mother, but I started falling into a form of depression. I was completely drowning and I couldn’t work out why. I started talking to a counsellor and eventually realised I was grieving but it was a hidden grief that I was even trying to hide from myself as I believed I wasn’t allowed to feel this. I wasn’t able to be a good mother, or wife or anything really.
I would avoid friends with daughters; I wouldn’t look directly at girls, no matter what age because looking at these girls I would find myself unconsciously imagining what she would be like. Would she have brown hair and eyes like me, or sandy blonde hair and green eyes like dad? Would she be smart and into study or more sporty? Would she be a girlie girl or more of a tom boy like me? I was trying to completely block this entire part of me out and it was literally killing me.

Eventually when I realised this is what was happening and my husband and I sat down and spoke about it all at great length as we had only ever planned on 4 children, so not only were we now looking at 5 we were looking to do it in a very scientific and risky and expensive way. Not a decision you make lightly. I do have a scientific background so making our little girl through IVF although not the way we ever thought we would it would give us our dream. My husband is religious but when he realised that if we continued to try naturally it would still likely be more boys and he could see the affect it was having on me. Mother Nature really wasn’t giving us a helping hand so science is our best option. We now plan to head over to the U.S. next year to get our little girl unless Australia changes the law here which we are really hoping they will. If we can go overseas and have it done why can we not have it done here?

Societies Arguments
1. Stereotyping
Some people say we are stereotyping her or creating this expectation of what a girl should be. I was a tom boy preferred cars and sports over dolls, make up and doing my hair. I rarely wore dresses and skirts and still don’t now. I like action movies over romantic comedies. I don’t care who she becomes just that she has a chance to become. I have always wanted to be a mother of a daughter not just a mother of only boys. People comment that I am lucky to have only boys as they are much easier, that I only have 4 penises’ to worry about not a million: Yes people do actually say this and to even my surprise it’s rather often! They simply just do not understand. For me none of this matters. What the future holds for her we do not know we hope she can forge her own path and become who and what she wants to be, the same wants and wishes I have for all my children. Comments like this though are stereotyping. She may like girls not boys just like one of my sons might like boys not girls. None of this matters to us. I have kept what dolls I did have as a little girl and my wedding dress and other odd things over my lifetime to give to her as I always just believed I would have a daughter one day. She may not want any of this but I will still give it to her for her to decide.
Before we decided to go ahead and travel to the U.S. to get our little girl, I was trying to come to terms with only ever being a mother in law. Most people don’t understand the gravity of this. Majority of women do not like their mother in laws. Having this faced upon me really opened my eyes to the unnecessary disrespect many women show their mother in laws. This now absolutely breaks my heart.
I will never get a chance to get excited about shopping for formal dresses or wedding dresses or suits if she prefers suits, these material things are not important. I will always be the mother in law when it comes to my grandchildren. My daughter and I might not be close so these kinds of things still might not happen but I will always be there for her as I would be my sons but when it comes to the grandkids the mother will majority of the time always turn to her own mother.

2. Playing God and Genoside
Some people say it’s playing god but In Australia will allow female gay couples or single women to use IVF to have a family. I think this is wonderful but this is along the same lines. These couples and women can’t have a baby naturally so we allow science to give them that baby they desire. My husband and I can’t have a daughter naturally so we want to turn to science to help us. Just as infertile couples can’t naturally have kids, if we want to enter into this argument god has decided for them to not naturally be able to have kids yet we now with science can help them achieve this. Again I do think this is absolutely wonderful but the playing god argument can’t be used as ultimately we already are.
Another argument against this is I hear often even by members of the NHMRC is that it opens it up for possible genoside where we start selecting for blonde hair and blue eyes etc. Besides the fact that this isn’t actually even scientifically possible yet the NHMRC has the ability to put strict laws into place to stop this kind of thing happening. The people usually extreme enough to want things like this will go to any length to achieve it and someone like Hitler comes to mind.

Scenarios for allowing Gender selection ART here in Australia based on the case studies outlined in the review

Case Study 1: Most couples who look to do ART gender selection are doing so to balance their big families. These big families are usually created as a result of that family trying to naturally conceive the baby of the desired gender. This in itself creates a strain on the health care system as its leading to bigger and bigger families. I have already greatly upset the gender balance by having 4 boys. Allowing it for families with 2 or more of the same gender already would be the best and most logical scenario.

Case Study 2: Allowing a family to have a child based on a particular gender as they tragically lost a daughter etc, this couple already having a daughter is likely to have one naturally again but If they then went on and had 2 boys and still no girl then they could turn to gender selection to have the little girl they long for. If they already have 2 boys then they already fall in the category anyway. Whilst we would all love to have a pigeon pair as 2 kids is exceptionally easier I personally don’t think family balancing comes into play until you have 2 or more children of one gender.

Case Study 3: Many couples each year already travel overseas for IVF/PGD gender selection for family balancing reasons. To allow these families to do it here in Australia will definitely reduce those risks associated with other Doctors and laboratories that aren’t required to follow the same high standards and practices set here in Australia. It will also help to keep the money here in Australia. As this is a complete personal choice no one that does it expects to have the government or health insurers pay for the PGD/IVF. Not only will it reduce the risks associated with the pregnancy and birth, by allowing the couple to choose a child of the gender they are longing for may stop them from continually trying for that gender resulting in increasingly larger family which will definitely impact the health care system.
Being able to do it here in Australia will also mean less disruption for those families. Traveling overseas for 2 weeks affects work and schooling, will also mean unknown babysitters to look after kids during medical procedures whilst overseas etc. All of this opens up more risks for the families involved.

Case Study 4: The daughter we conceived through ART would have never ever had a chance at life if we hadn’t gone down this path. To say that it then means their life is controlled from that point on is invalid. Parents that control a child’s life or a child that feels controlled would have done so or felt this way whether that child was conceived naturally or otherwise. Saying it was a result of being conceived through ART is just looking for something to blame. All children conceived through IVF could then use this argument. I will openly tell my daughter that’s how she was conceived and to me this will mean she will know how wanted and how special she actually is.
I have no expectations of what my daughter will turn out like. As with all my kids I hope I can help them become the men and women they want to be.

Conclusion
So In summary I think ART Gender selection should be available here in Australia under strict guidelines of family balancing for those families with 2 or more of the same gender. No Medicare or private health insurance should be required to cover the costs of the IVF/PGD. In allowing it here in Australia it will help to reduce the risks associated with conducting the IVF overseas in laboratories with lower standards than those set in Australia. It will also help to reduce the strain placed on the health care system by helping to limit the ever increasing family size of those families having more children in search of the desired gender.
Finally the biggest point that needs to be made is that it will stop the abortion of those unborn babies simply because they aren’t of the desired gender. Again is it less ethical to let a couple choose a baby based on Gender before the life is created or to allow them to destroy that life based on gender?

[Girlfriend]

I know it may seem pointless to put a submission forward as yes it would be an uphill battle to get them to change it but since baby gammy they have really had to look at the problems posed by couples going overseas for donor eggs and yes gender selection. The fact that this was up for review over the last 12months and they didn't just say no at the end of the review period is a little promising. They decided they couldn't make a proper decision without more public consultation to see if the view on this had changed. The more people who submit a review the better.

this is my submission. its long but worth a read if u have time. it covers one VERY important point about abortion being legal here in Australia and the loop hole thats been created due to the NIPT test

I am writing to express my views in regards to the use of ART and gender selection here in Australia.
I believe it should be allowed following very strict guide lines of family balancing for those families of 2 or more of the same gender.
My Story

I am a mother of 3 boys soon to be 4. We have tried every old wives tale gender sway technique and still have been unable to again naturally conceive the female child our family longs for.
We both love all of our boys and would not change any of them. When I found out my 3rd child was a boy I was a little upset not because he was a boy but because it still wasn’t the little girl I have always believed I was going to have. My husband and I had always planned on 4 children so we still had one more chance. I had lost a little girl. My first pregnancy was a girl but sadly I miscarried her at 10weeks (trisomy 16 – a completely random event and most common form of early miscarriage). I knew it was possible for us to conceive a girl and at the time we didn’t really want to invest all our savings into traveling overseas for IVF/PGD gender selection. We believed we could have a girl naturally with a lot of effort on us to use the sway techniques I had spent endless hours researching.

When we fell pregnant again I was positive it was a girl, we had put all our effort for months into swaying and surely it had worked. I decided to go with the new genetic testing to find out the gender early. Having 3 boys already the comments when people find out you are pregnant again are very ‘it has to be a girl’, ‘I bet you hope it’s a girl’ etc. This actually makes gender disappointment even worse and I wanted to stop these comments before they began so I wanted to find out gender before we announced it to anyone.

At 11 weeks I found out I was having another little boy. My world came crashing down. Whilst I was happy he was healthy this time being our final child my lifelong dream of having a daughter was gone in an instant. I still haven’t announced this pregnancy as I now feel very protective over this little man and worry people will feel he is unwanted as they know I would have loved a daughter. Again this is not the case but I feel I need to protect him from people and their thoughtlessness. Society is apparently against gender selection but the pressure they put on couples to have both boys and girls is incredible and anyone who has a one gender family receives endless bombardments of comments about having a child of the opposite gender. I have random strangers come up to me and say I have to have a girl as being a mother to a girl is completely different to that of being a mother to a boy, again thoughtless comments that don’t help. People who can clearly see I’m pregnant ask and I say it’s a boy but I have to follow up with a 20 minute speech about us being over the moon happy it’s another boy and yes it will be extremely crazy in our house but we wouldn’t change if for the world. This is normally followed up by wow you will be completely outnumbered. Yes thank you for that completely obvious observation.

This grief though was something I had never felt before and to make it worse I had to keep it to myself. I went through all the guilt of, I should be happy I have another healthy gorgeous boy on the way all whilst I was trying to come to terms with essentially losing my daughter. Ethically in Australia I could have legally chosen to abort this baby and as we only ever wanted 4 children and if I had aborted we could try again for a girl. It was before 12weeks and it was heavily affecting my mental health. In saying this although it did cross my mind as it was an option, I personally would never ever abort my baby he is still my baby and I love him with all my heart and I could never live with myself for doing something like that but I do know of couples using this option as it is the only form of gender selection available to them here in Australia. So the ultimate question we have to ask ourselves is: It is less ethical to abort a life already created or let couples chose the gender whilst it’s still just a clump of cells? The NIPT blood test enables couples to find out the gender of their unborn baby before 12weeks so has created a loop hole where couples can legally terminate the child of unwanted gender. We are progressive enough in this country to allow abortion but not gender selection for family balancing of usually large families?

The next few months I found myself really struggling and this is not something I am used to. I have never found having 3 kids hard I have always considered myself a natural mother, but I started falling into a form of depression. I was completely drowning and I couldn’t work out why. I started talking to a counsellor and eventually realised I was grieving but it was a hidden grief that I was even trying to hide from myself as I believed I wasn’t allowed to feel this. I wasn’t able to be a good mother, or wife or anything really.
I would avoid friends with daughters; I wouldn’t look directly at girls, no matter what age because looking at these girls I would find myself unconsciously imagining what she would be like. Would she have brown hair and eyes like me, or sandy blonde hair and green eyes like dad? Would she be smart and into study or more sporty? Would she be a girlie girl or more of a tom boy like me? I was trying to completely block this entire part of me out and it was literally killing me.

Eventually when I realised this is what was happening and my husband and I sat down and spoke about it all at great length as we had only ever planned on 4 children, so not only were we now looking at 5 we were looking to do it in a very scientific and risky and expensive way. Not a decision you make lightly. I do have a scientific background so making our little girl through IVF although not the way we ever thought we would it would give us our dream. My husband is religious but when he realised that if we continued to try naturally it would still likely be more boys and he could see the affect it was having on me. Mother Nature really wasn’t giving us a helping hand so science is our best option. We now plan to head over to the U.S. next year to get our little girl unless Australia changes the law here which we are really hoping they will. If we can go overseas and have it done why can we not have it done here?

Societies Arguments
1. Stereotyping
Some people say we are stereotyping her or creating this expectation of what a girl should be. I was a tom boy preferred cars and sports over dolls, make up and doing my hair. I rarely wore dresses and skirts and still don’t now. I like action movies over romantic comedies. I don’t care who she becomes just that she has a chance to become. I have always wanted to be a mother of a daughter not just a mother of only boys. People comment that I am lucky to have only boys as they are much easier, that I only have 4 penises’ to worry about not a million: Yes people do actually say this and to even my surprise it’s rather often! They simply just do not understand. For me none of this matters. What the future holds for her we do not know we hope she can forge her own path and become who and what she wants to be, the same wants and wishes I have for all my children. Comments like this though are stereotyping. She may like girls not boys just like one of my sons might like boys not girls. None of this matters to us. I have kept what dolls I did have as a little girl and my wedding dress and other odd things over my lifetime to give to her as I always just believed I would have a daughter one day. She may not want any of this but I will still give it to her for her to decide.
Before we decided to go ahead and travel to the U.S. to get our little girl, I was trying to come to terms with only ever being a mother in law. Most people don’t understand the gravity of this. Majority of women do not like their mother in laws. Having this faced upon me really opened my eyes to the unnecessary disrespect many women show their mother in laws. This now absolutely breaks my heart.
I will never get a chance to get excited about shopping for formal dresses or wedding dresses or suits if she prefers suits, these material things are not important. I will always be the mother in law when it comes to my grandchildren. My daughter and I might not be close so these kinds of things still might not happen but I will always be there for her as I would be my sons but when it comes to the grandkids the mother will majority of the time always turn to her own mother.

2. Playing God and Genoside
Some people say it’s playing god but In Australia will allow female gay couples or single women to use IVF to have a family. I think this is wonderful but this is along the same lines. These couples and women can’t have a baby naturally so we allow science to give them that baby they desire. My husband and I can’t have a daughter naturally so we want to turn to science to help us. Just as infertile couples can’t naturally have kids, if we want to enter into this argument god has decided for them to not naturally be able to have kids yet we now with science can help them achieve this. Again I do think this is absolutely wonderful but the playing god argument can’t be used as ultimately we already are.
Another argument against this is I hear often even by members of the NHMRC is that it opens it up for possible genoside where we start selecting for blonde hair and blue eyes etc. Besides the fact that this isn’t actually even scientifically possible yet the NHMRC has the ability to put strict laws into place to stop this kind of thing happening. The people usually extreme enough to want things like this will go to any length to achieve it and someone like Hitler comes to mind.

Scenarios for allowing Gender selection ART here in Australia based on the case studies outlined in the review

Case Study 1: Most couples who look to do ART gender selection are doing so to balance their big families. These big families are usually created as a result of that family trying to naturally conceive the baby of the desired gender. This in itself creates a strain on the health care system as its leading to bigger and bigger families. I have already greatly upset the gender balance by having 4 boys. Allowing it for families with 2 or more of the same gender already would be the best and most logical scenario.

Case Study 2: Allowing a family to have a child based on a particular gender as they tragically lost a daughter etc, this couple already having a daughter is likely to have one naturally again but If they then went on and had 2 boys and still no girl then they could turn to gender selection to have the little girl they long for. If they already have 2 boys then they already fall in the category anyway. Whilst we would all love to have a pigeon pair as 2 kids is exceptionally easier I personally don’t think family balancing comes into play until you have 2 or more children of one gender.

Case Study 3: Many couples each year already travel overseas for IVF/PGD gender selection for family balancing reasons. To allow these families to do it here in Australia will definitely reduce those risks associated with other Doctors and laboratories that aren’t required to follow the same high standards and practices set here in Australia. It will also help to keep the money here in Australia. As this is a complete personal choice no one that does it expects to have the government or health insurers pay for the PGD/IVF. Not only will it reduce the risks associated with the pregnancy and birth, by allowing the couple to choose a child of the gender they are longing for may stop them from continually trying for that gender resulting in increasingly larger family which will definitely impact the health care system.
Being able to do it here in Australia will also mean less disruption for those families. Traveling overseas for 2 weeks affects work and schooling, will also mean unknown babysitters to look after kids during medical procedures whilst overseas etc. All of this opens up more risks for the families involved.

Case Study 4: The daughter we conceived through ART would have never ever had a chance at life if we hadn’t gone down this path. To say that it then means their life is controlled from that point on is invalid. Parents that control a child’s life or a child that feels controlled would have done so or felt this way whether that child was conceived naturally or otherwise. Saying it was a result of being conceived through ART is just looking for something to blame. All children conceived through IVF could then use this argument. I will openly tell my daughter that’s how she was conceived and to me this will mean she will know how wanted and how special she actually is.
I have no expectations of what my daughter will turn out like. As with all my kids I hope I can help them become the men and women they want to be.

Conclusion
So In summary I think ART Gender selection should be available here in Australia under strict guidelines of family balancing for those families with 2 or more of the same gender. No Medicare or private health insurance should be required to cover the costs of the IVF/PGD. In allowing it here in Australia it will help to reduce the risks associated with conducting the IVF overseas in laboratories with lower standards than those set in Australia. It will also help to reduce the strain placed on the health care system by helping to limit the ever increasing family size of those families having more children in search of the desired gender.
Finally the biggest point that needs to be made is that it will stop the abortion of those unborn babies simply because they aren’t of the desired gender. Again is it less ethical to let a couple choose a baby based on Gender before the life is created or to allow them to destroy that life based on gender?

What a great submittion, I couldn't agree more with everything u said.
I would also like to stress to all the Aussies out there - Please please please take the time and submit something before the due date because I believe there's a reason why they have been undecided and asked for more submittions it's very promising for all of us to have this band lifted so let's all do our bit. Every vote counts !!!!!

[Mischa]

I have just read the relevant sections of the draft consultation document. I plan to make a submission regarding sex selection for family balancing reasons too. I hope there is change in this area :)

[1+2+3boys]

Hi, I am meant to be having a long term break but wanted to log in to chip in just here as it is important. I know of the rules being under review and have read the submissions on the NHMRC website so far and wanted to ask that more people please make submissions. There are some exelent ones for GS but there are still WAY more against. So I guess that means we are losing? Come on people please please please, you only have to comment under section 11 for GS if you want. I really want to but not sure I can since I am from New Zealand. Will try anyway though :)

[Girlfriend]

Sorry guys ive posted this in alot of threads but i really want lots of submissions put in
Please girls, put in submissions. Also get husbands and any supportive family members and friends to do the same. doesnt have to be long, just in support of gender selection.

If anyone is concerned about confidentiality here is a response i got from an email i wrote:


Thank you for your interest in the review of the guidelines for the clinical practice of ART, Part B of the Ethical guidelines on the use of assisted reproductive technology in clinical practice and research, 2007 (ART guidelines).

Depending on your preferences, and level of anonymity you are seeking, you may wish to choose between the following submission methods:


1. Create an account via the Public Consultation Portal, using your real name and contact details. You will be asked to complete the following ‘Disclaimer’ regarding your permission for NHMRC to publish your submission (see below). If you do not provide your permission, then no details of your submission will be publically available – however, you will be identifiable to the members of Working Committee and NHMRC staff working on the review. Please note that any submission made to NHMRC may be subject to the requirements of the Commonwealth Freedom of Information Act 1982.

Permission to publish on the NHMRC website: *
Yes, NHMRC may publish my submission on the NHMRC website
No, I do not consent to my submission being published on the NHMRC website
My submission contains some information which I do not want published on the NHMRC website. I have clearly marked the information I’d like redacted before NHMRC may publish my submission.
*Note: Any submission made to the NHMRC may be subject to the requirements of the Commonwealth Freedom of Information Act 1982. NHMRC retains the right to determine which submissions it will publish. All personal information should be removed from your submission if permission to publish has been granted. Submissions may not be made public if personal information is included in the submission

2. Create an account on the Public Consultation Portal under a pseudonym, providing a false name (e.g. Ms Anonymous) and email (e.g. anonymous@email.com) and other personal details. To remain anonymous, you would also need to ensure that you do not include any identifying information within the body of your submission.

This option would allow you to remain anonymous, even if you choose to grant NHMRC permission to publish your submission. However, this option would mean that NHMRC will be unable to email you updates about the review

Thank you for clarifying all this. I agree we all need to make a submition - the more people that write the better. Every vote counts and helps.

[LJ81]

1+2+3boys - how do you view other people's submissions? When I look it says that none are available. Thanks!

[snoop]

I just made a submission but asked that it not be published. I really hope family balancing is permitted. Do we know when the revised guidelines might be released?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LJ81]

I figured out how to view submissions and lots of them do appear to be in favour of gender selection. Also the report said 65 had been submitted but there are only 45 which you can view, and I'm guessing the other 20 might be people who are in favour of it but would prefer to remain anonymous (like mine). Given the last round of submissions were about a year ago I'm guessing it would probably be mid 2016 before anything is decided. Fingers crossed before then though.

[obsessivecompulsivemama]

Hi ladies - long time lurker here. I have just put in a submission for you all. Very torn as to whether I would ever actually use GS but I strongly believe that you all should have the right to it.

Best of luck xx