Outlander

[2boysJustOneGirl]

I have never stood outside of a group and felt so utterly and hurtfully excluded as I did this morning. I held my crying 2 1/2 year old son and watched all the other mothers and their daughters happily partake in the class I stupidly enrolled my kid into.

It was the first class and my son is very careful in new situations. He isn't one to step up immediately and he doesn't like to be centre of attention. It takes him awhile to warm up. So when the class began, the music and the sounds, he threw a fit and basically cried on and off throughout the 45 minute class. He is 2 1/2, he isn't much of a fan of marching to the beat of somebody else's drum.

I literally fought back tears as the eyes of the other parents watched me try to comfort and reassure and somewhat discipline my son when all I really wanted to do was run for the door.

All I could think was "I shouldn't be here, we shouldn't be here, we are not part of this group" and my kids behaviour didn't help that feeling. I just want my sons to like music! To have fun. Why is my kid the only boy? Where are the rest of the little boys and why has society become dependent on gender roles? I refuse to shelter my kids from music because "most" parents feel it's feminine? That's so crazy if that is true!!! The greatest musicians are (and I apologize) male!

Anyway I suppose motherhood will be full of moments such as this. Truth is my heart can't take it right now. What a terrible feeling, to see your child outside of a group. And in this case it likely wasn't because of his gender but rather just a "bad day" but I think gender will inevitably always leave me out of the crowd, not him. 😔


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[sweetdream]

Cut Youssef Some slack.
Sometimes i think its our head that makes a bigger problem then other ppl.
IT could be jus this reaction that put him outside at this moment. When he's a bit older it will most likely go better. He needs Some time to sdjust. Thats character not gender.

My son has musiclessons and the others love music too!
Just continue. Your doing fine. And once everyone is used to it. It wil be normal. And hè might even be special in a good way!

Big hug!

[atomic sagebrush]

I'm not so sure this is a gender thing. My daughter is by far my shyest LO and she would have done the EXACT same thing in that situation while a couple of my boys would have owned the joint.

Sometimes I think we have a tendency to view things thru the "GD" lens when really it's just that our kiddo is who they are (and not one thing wrong with that!)

[2boysJustOneGirl]

You are both right. And I know it. It's just in times like that you can't help but notice that you are the mother of "the boy" and because of the depths of my GD I immediately notice that and assume that those moms (and the few dads) took note that he is "the boy" so his behaviour is due to that! Even tho I know it's just him as a person.

Society doesn't see it that way and it pisses me off.

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[2boysJustOneGirl]

What I am trying to say is my son displayed the stereotypical behaviour of a boy, defiant, wild, out of control etc. when he actually is just being himself. Not " a boy" but a person.


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[Sarah4girl]

Give you son some time to get used to the group. Keep going back :) I do understand how you feel though. Just yesterday at a birthday party the difference in gender were so blazingly obvious. The boys were on the bridge fighting each other off while the girls sat coloring!! Then when the balloon artist came out my son asked for a gun. While the girls wanted flowers. I couldn't help but feel sad. So I understand where your coming from!


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[atomic sagebrush]

Hm, I wouldn't take crying and fussiness and tantruming to be a "boy thing" at all. I think most people see boys as being super confident and physical.

Anyone who sees a 2 1/2 year old throwing a fit in a new situation and chalks that up to gender, defiance, or bad parenting, is an a$$ who knows nothing about children anyway and their opinion isn't worth diddly. :)

[atomic sagebrush]

Give you son some time to get used to the group. Keep going back :) I do understand how you feel though. Just yesterday at a birthday party the difference in gender were so blazingly obvious. The boys were on the bridge fighting each other off while the girls sat coloring!! Then when the balloon artist came out my son asked for a gun. While the girls wanted flowers. I couldn't help but feel sad. So I understand where your coming from!


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Look at it this way, though - how many of those little girls chose flowers because they knew that all the other girls had chosen them and they felt they had to be locked into that??? I really think the social pressure to conform to gender stereotypes is HUGE among preschool girls and there were probably some of those girls who really wanted to be goofing off on the bridge with the boys instead of coloring. Coloring is BORING! :)

[atomic sagebrush]

This reminds me of one time I was at a B-day party with my two boys and all the girls sat quietly reading princess books and all the boys were playing in a tree that had a lot of hanging-down branches. Well, there was a beehive in the tree and of course all the little boys got stung. Most of them ran out right away but my son panicked and I could hear him screaming in the tree but I was on the other side and carrying a baby and I couldn't get to him. Well, guess who ran in and saved him while all the manly dudes (including my own brother, my sister's husband, and my stepdad) all ran for cover like wussies??? Another mom who I did not even know. She did not even think twice, ran into a cloud of bees, got stung herself several times, and grabbed my son and carried him out again. I am just not convinced that girls are these shy retiring flowerloving gentle unicorn-riding princesses any more than I think all our boys are vicious and violent because they throw a temper tantrum when they're two! :)

[2boysJustOneGirl]

Look at it this way, though - how many of those little girls chose flowers because they knew that all the other girls had chosen them and they felt they had to be locked into that??? I really think the social pressure to conform to gender stereotypes is HUGE among preschool girls and there were probably some of those girls who really wanted to be goofing off on the bridge with the boys instead of coloring. Coloring is BORING! :)

Exactly! I despise gender stereotypes, it suppresses boys and girls, men and women everyday and I just can't believe it still exists today! When will people start looking at each other as equal human beings and not judge based on how we look or the physical anatomy we have. I will always embrace my boys for who they are, the will never have limits when it comes to their identify and self expression and the day somebody asks them to "get in line" will be a day they will have wished hadn't come for them! I made a promise with myself before I had kids to accept them and help them grow, not control them and shatter their self worth.


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[atomic sagebrush]

I completely agree!!! :)

[Dreamofpink]

Coloring is BORING! :)
My 5 YO Tinkerbell-mad DS2 would have to disagree totally with you there ;) He'd colour-in before going to boosh everyone off the bridge!! He lives for his colouring-in. ;)


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[jmomof3girls]

My DD2 was wild! She was the worlds grumpiest 2 year old. She would act fine at home and act awful anywhere else. She would throw fits, throw herself on the floor, scream and hit, and cry. I was horrified. She was 10x worse than ANY boy wherever we went. I've been embarrassed by her in public or at gatherings more times than I can count. And she is a GIRL!! She's 3 and doesn't do it anymore because she's sick of being punished for it! LOL! I think it just depends on the personality type. She's turning into a great kid but she's still in no way your "typical" girl. I don't believe in stereotypes anymore!

[atomic sagebrush]

^^^ I know Hobbermitens (one of our longtime members and blue swayer) also has a very wild n crazy DD!! Both my sisters were also tantrum throwers (I wasn't, but I wasn't a colorer either, largely because I sucked at it! ;))

[Arimethia]

I have a stereotypical "girl" personality boy and a stereotypical boy, but even my stereotypical boy LOVES princess crowns, headbands and jewelry. I wish society wasn't so awful to boys who like traditionally girly things or I'd get him that stuff to wear out all the time!

[jmomof3girls]

^^^ I know Hobbermitens (one of our longtime members and blue swayer) also has a very wild n crazy DD!! Both my sisters were also tantrum throwers (I wasn't, but I wasn't a colorer either, largely because I sucked at it! ;))
LOL! I'm sure she would agree that when you have a daughter like that you get even crazier looks from people than if it was a boy :happy:

[PrimalMamma]

2boys your original post could have been me describing my eldest son (now 5) who was (& is) EXACTLY THE SAME in new situations. I totally know that "wanting to disappear into a hole" feeling, & the fear that someone MIGHT think badly of you, or your child. Not to mention my own frustrations at him simmering just below the surface of my gently shushing & soothing him. My son has sensory issues (nothing full on enough to be a disorder but enough to cause him difficulties when confronted with new stimuli). Because of this he tends to get absorbed in screen time which terrifies me & I've desperately been trying to get him involved in SOMETHING - music, team sports, gymnastics, martial arts, dance, ANYTHING -for years but he would just fall to pieces every time we tried. Well finally this year my unbelievably patient husband started taking him to Tae Kwon Do to "watch". Twice a week for THREE MONTHS they went & watched. At first he tantrummed in terror at the door & wouldn't even walk in. Finally one night he kicked off his shoes & gave it a go... He has just successfully graded for his "yellow tip" & will grade again for a full yellow belt in December. Tae Kwon Do wasn't my first choice (or my 5th if I'm honest, I was keen for gymnastics) but it works for him. Team sports was too much pressure. The precise moves of TKD appeal to his perfectionism & the colored belt system give him both short & long-term goals & both intrinsic & extrinsic rewards which he loves. My point being - in his own time at his own pace your son will find his way. My son still can't (& won't) ride a bike & wears a pull-up to bed, but he can tie his own shoelaces. (& by the way I'm not spruking TKD or saying you should take him to do it It's just an example!)

[2boysJustOneGirl]

Well ladies the second music class was much better for my boy and myself! And you know what? I even felt superior for the first time ever! A dad was there with his daughter (they have two girls) and my son and I sat beside them. The dad found my son quiet entertaining and as my son asked for the second time "can we go home now, I want to see that digger " (he loves summer road repairs!) that dad was so Intrigued. And I thought...Ha!!!! Sucks to be you, you with your two girls. Ha ha ha. It's evil I know. But it was so nice to not be on the receiving end of it and for once my family was desirable.


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[Adia]

Well ladies the second music class was much better for my boy and myself! And you know what? I even felt superior for the first time ever! A dad was there with his daughter (they have two girls) and my son and I sat beside them. The dad found my son quiet entertaining and as my son asked for the second time "can we go home now, I want to see that digger " (he loves summer road repairs!) that dad was so Intrigued. And I thought...Ha!!!! Sucks to be you, you with your two girls. Ha ha ha. It's evil I know. But it was so nice to not be on the receiving end of it and for once my family was desirable.


Yes, your family is desirable...I would love to have 1 or more boys! I really thought every single one of my girls was a boy...until those fateful ultrasounds....

[Mamato3?]

My eldest is a total tomboy and eventhough my DD2 is not so much, whenever we hang out with other families that have boys and girls, my children are the ones making the most fuss and everybody asks me how I cope with them. They are far more energetic than most boys in their age, so I definitely don't think it's a gender thing.
It has to do with personality and grownig up they are more easy to blend in with the enviroment.

[PrimalMamma]

Mamato3 I totally agree, the four roughest & toughest kids I know are my friend's 4 daughters. These 4 girls are so aggressive i have numerous friends of both genders who have expressed concerns about allowing their kids to play with these girls because they are so rough. i would take 3 sons over one of those daughters any day of he week!! (Not meaning your dayghters are like that, just meaning I agree that energy & boistrousness aren't necessarily "boy things")

2boys you know when I'm really thankful for my 2 sons? Whenever I have to go birthday shopping for someone with a girl. So many girls toys are so LIMITING & sexist. It makes me sad, & grateful not to have to "filter" so much. I mean of course I do still make sure what I give my sons is appropriate for our family values (NO GUNS) but it seems that I'd be doing far more of that if I had a daughter. (Don't get me wrong, I still WANT a daughter & hope this baby is one, but the toy situation makes me feel a little better in case she doesn't come along).

[Sarah4girl]

Here's a question for everyone. If there was no gender inequality would there be a site such as this?


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[PrimalMamma]

It's hard to say but I think there probably would be Sarah. Even if men & women were totally equal worldwide there are undeniable differences (generally speaking) between the sexes. I think that extends to the unique relationships between mother & daughter, father & son, father & daughter, mother & son. So I think it's probably natural for most (not all) people to want the experience of parenting both genders, regardless of one's view on gender equality.

[Mamato3?]

I think Sarah has a point, but each one of us want a certain gender for his/her own reasons.
Especially for boys though (inspite that I personally want to TTC a boy so that I can feel the bond between mother and son) I think the need to produce male offsprings has to do with all the male stereotypes that occur worldwide, such as the fact that the family name is given by the father etc, etc...

[2boysJustOneGirl]

Mamato3 I totally agree, the four roughest & toughest kids I know are my friend's 4 daughters. These 4 girls are so aggressive i have numerous friends of both genders who have expressed concerns about allowing their kids to play with these girls because they are so rough. i would take 3 sons over one of those daughters any day of he week!! (Not meaning your dayghters are like that, just meaning I agree that energy & boistrousness aren't necessarily "boy things")

2boys you know when I'm really thankful for my 2 sons? Whenever I have to go birthday shopping for someone with a girl. So many girls toys are so LIMITING & sexist. It makes me sad, & grateful not to have to "filter" so much. I mean of course I do still make sure what I give my sons is appropriate for our family values (NO GUNS) but it seems that I'd be doing far more of that if I had a daughter. (Don't get me wrong, I still WANT a daughter & hope this baby is one, but the toy situation makes me feel a little better in case she doesn't come along).

I agree with you there. How do you even begin to explain to toddlers why they even MAKE pink Mega Blocks! Why can't there just be one kind of Mega Blocks, why do girls need a different colour than boys? Why must a girl need pink blocks in order to interested in them? Toys are the worst. The gender stereotyping is so evident when it comes to toys and clothing. The idea that pink clothing (pink anything!) symbolizes feminism is so absurd. I choose to raise my kids with human values instead of instilling stereotypical thinking.


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[2boysJustOneGirl]

Here's a question for everyone. If there was no gender inequality would there be a site such as this?


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Inequality really does contribute to GD but for me it's also about gender stereotyping and the whole "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" way of thinking. Fundamentally humans are all the same with same basic needs to survive and be happy yet most people believe that we are so different based upon a few different levels of the same hormones. For decades these stereotypes have added fuel to the century old beliefs of gender inequality and honestly I don't see things improving given the direction we are headed. For me I am stuck on how I can relate to girl better than a boy?!? It's been engraved in my head since I was born that we are so different and understanding is beyond our reach! How can I think otherwise!

The idea of the million dollar family, one boy and one girl offspring, is an old idea and we still hang on to it. Why? There must be some merit to. Maybe those families are happier, live longer, don't experience divorce, don't experience depression? I don't know what exactly it is but there must be some kind of evolutionary reason why mixed gender families are desired so much.


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[atomic sagebrush]

Here's a question for everyone. If there was no gender inequality would there be a site such as this?


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I think gender desire is 110% natural and born into us and I don't think gender inequality is the reason. I think there is some innate desire in most people to have a child of both genders and perhaps especially the child of the same gender. It's not true for every person and certainly not to the same extent but I do think it's absolutely natural. Just like how most people, but not all, are interested in having kids to begin with - that is def. a natural drive that the majority have, but not all to the same extent.

I actually have a very great pity for dads that want sons in the here and now because I think they have really bad social pressure put onto them to not mention/acknowledge it.

[atomic sagebrush]

I am not sure the b/g family was seen as ideal till the 50's - only once family size really started getting limited did the B/G and done notion became prevalent.

I do think there is some evolutionary basis to it, because men had their work and women had their work and it would be helpful to have offspring that could assist with those tasks. I can't imagine being a pioneer woman with 7 sons and no daughters to help with the cooking and cleaning and stuff.

Then again, sometimes i wonder how accurate the info we get really is, about how things really were back in the day.

[PrimalMamma]

The history of my own GD comes from my family & extended family. My maternal grandmother had 4 children - boy, girl, boy, girl. Each one of them went on to have 2 children - All had pigeon pairs. One of my aunts had a 3rd (a boy) but that was after the pigeon pair. My cousins have only just started to have children, one has a son, & the other has a daughter & is pregnant with a son. So it is absolutely ingrained in my psyche that a pigeon pair is desirable & the ultimate success. Within my family there has always been pity shown to those people who have the same gender, ESPECIALLY boys. 2 girls is sort of seen as "oh well" but 2 boys is seen as something to grieve over, a real disappointment. It's sad really. I haven't mentioned swaying to them, & to their faces I have defended the all-boy make up of my family & told them I would actually prefer this baby to be a boy (which is not true). I just don't want this baby being seen as either first prize if its a girl or a booby prize if its a boy. The child I'm carrying is loved regardless & will not be born as "the daughter they always wanted" or "the boy that was meant to be a girl".

[1+2+3boys]

Well ladies the second music class was much better for my boy and myself! And you know what? I even felt superior for the first time ever! A dad was there with his daughter (they have two girls) and my son and I sat beside them. The dad found my son quiet entertaining and as my son asked for the second time "can we go home now, I want to see that digger " (he loves summer road repairs!) that dad was so Intrigued. And I thought...Ha!!!! Sucks to be you, you with your two girls. Ha ha ha. It's evil I know. But it was so nice to not be on the receiving end of it and for once my family was desirable.


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Not evil. I have had that before. Met a Dad at the playground with two gorgeous little girls and I was staring at his girls and him at my boys. Our eldest started playing together so we chatted a bit and He confessed his desire for a son but didn't see it happening due to how hard it was to conceive the girls. Made me feel a bit good about myself
:)

[jmomof3girls]

I actually have a very great pity for dads that want sons in the here and now because I think they have really bad social pressure put onto them to not mention/acknowledge it.

My husband really wants a boy. I feel for him when he sees that all of our friends and family have boys except us. He doesn't say it very often but when he does it's with deep desire. There is a lot of social pressure and comments to the men with all daughters.

[PrimalMamma]

My husband really wants a boy. I feel for him when he sees that all of our friends and family have boys except us. He doesn't say it very often but when he does it's with deep desire. There is a lot of social pressure and comments to the men with all daughters.

Yeah, it's really hard. I had a friend who has 4 daughters. Her husband is a real stereotypical man - he likes fishing & camping & football & "man stuff" and he just can't relate to tea parties & dolls & singing along with Frozen. They swayed moderately for the third & really hard for the fourth & obviously were unsuccessful both times.

I'm similar to him with my GD in that try as I might I am not sporty. I don't like sports or playing bat & ball & I couldn't give a shit about diggers in the goddamn sandpit. Of course I fake it, of course I do it with them but geez I would love a little girl who (would be more likely to) naturally want to play dollies & tea parties.

I have to keep reminding myself of the MORE LIKELY TO part. My older friend's daughter who is in her late teens is a lesbian who dresses like a man & never wanted to play dolls either. Her gender disappointment is really complex because she got her girl physically but she didn't ever behave how she expected her to. So I guess nothing is for certain even if you do get your desired gender.

[jmomof3girls]

Yes, my husband is a manly man also. He has this secret side of him that does tea parties with the girls though. It's pretty cool because you would never know that about him. I'm like you. I'm very girly. I love all of the girls and doing girly things with them. I was thinking it would be nice to have sports and boy stuff in my house besides my husband. To have a little boy of my own, and to raise a son. I would love to see what kind of boy we could have together. It seems so far out of reach you know? Like you said though, nothing is ever certain!! I hope you get your DD next!

[atomic sagebrush]

My husband really wants a boy. I feel for him when he sees that all of our friends and family have boys except us. He doesn't say it very often but when he does it's with deep desire. There is a lot of social pressure and comments to the men with all daughters.

Something very interesting I observed about my husband, is that our first two boys are not "man's men" in any way (not sporty or outdoorsy types) and while of course he does love them and all that, I think he had a weird kind of GD for a more traditional boy-boy and was very happy when our 3rd and 4th boys came along. It was like even tho he had sons, he did not have the "son experience" that he wanted. I can totally see how a man surrounded by tea parties and stuff may not be feeling like he is having the parenting experience he dreamed of - even though he totally LOVES his daughers, it's just not the dream. And i just feel very badly for them because the "you are a horrible person" remarks that we all get for wanting daughters, they get 10fold and can't even always rely on their wives to be willing to TTC again.

[atomic sagebrush]

Yeah, it's really hard. I had a friend who has 4 daughters. Her husband is a real stereotypical man - he likes fishing & camping & football & "man stuff" and he just can't relate to tea parties & dolls & singing along with Frozen. They swayed moderately for the third & really hard for the fourth & obviously were unsuccessful both times.

I'm similar to him with my GD in that try as I might I am not sporty. I don't like sports or playing bat & ball & I couldn't give a shit about diggers in the goddamn sandpit. Of course I fake it, of course I do it with them but geez I would love a little girl who (would be more likely to) naturally want to play dollies & tea parties.

I have to keep reminding myself of the MORE LIKELY TO part. My older friend's daughter who is in her late teens is a lesbian who dresses like a man & never wanted to play dolls either. Her gender disappointment is really complex because she got her girl physically but she didn't ever behave how she expected her to. So I guess nothing is for certain even if you do get your desired gender.

This happened to my husband's grandma too. Had 5 boys, one died, the youngest boy is gay, then finally a daughter and she is a lesbian. (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that in any way, just that it could make feelings of gender disappointment even more complex than they actually are)

[Mamato3?]

The biggest concern of my DH when we found out we were having my first DD was that he didn't know how to behave around girls since he has 2 brothers and no sisters.
While she was growing up we didn't do all the typically girly stuff with her, we didn't buy her traditionaly girly toys or dress her all in skirts and dresses and we tried activities like long walks in the country side or biking etc, mainly because it was something that my DH felt confortable doing with my DD.
I don't know if it has to do with my DD's personality (she is very energetic and sporty) or if the way we raised her has influenced her personality. I think it's both, but my point is that if a father wants to spent time with their children they can, n matter the gender, it doesn't have to be barbies and tea parties.
When my second DD came along even though she is more girly than my first DD, she fit in our lifestyle perfectly and now that they are older they follow the same style, eventhough they now want to choose their clothing on their own and most of the time is pink grrrrr.

[PrimalMamma]

The biggest concern of my DH when we found out we were having my first DD was that he didn't know how to behave around girls since he has 2 brothers and no sisters.
While she was growing up we didn't do all the typically girly stuff with her, we didn't buy her traditionaly girly toys or dress her all in skirts and dresses and we tried activities like long walks in the country side or biking etc, mainly because it was something that my DH felt confortable doing with my DD.
I don't know if it has to do with my DD's personality (she is very energetic and sporty) or if the way we raised her has influenced her personality. I think it's both, but my point is that if a father wants to spent time with their children they can, n matter the gender, it doesn't have to be barbies and tea parties.
.

I totally agree Mamato3 but at the same time I understand what it is to struggle to find common ground. I see my position as to help to bring out my boy's natural compassion through gentle activities. I try not to gender stereotype them too much but they are strongly drawn to "boys" activities without any assumption from us. My boys have dolls - the little one doesn't really play with his but my eldest has slept with his every night since he was 16 months old (he's 5 1/2). They love to cook with me & draw & watch Disney movies with me & sing along (both of them adore The Little Mermaid & Frozen). Yet every day there are the invariable "Mum, will you hit the ball with me? Mum will you play soccer with us?" Or the dreaded train set is dragged out & i am expected to play. And they are FAR more prevalent than the other. I join in (reluctantly) but I LOATHE it. And that is how I think Dads of girls might feel having to "deal with" girl stuff.

[Mamato3?]

I totally agree Mamato3 but at the same time I understand what it is to struggle to find common ground. I see my position as to help to bring out my boy's natural compassion through gentle activities. I try not to gender stereotype them too much but they are strongly drawn to "boys" activities without any assumption from us. My boys have dolls - the little one doesn't really play with his but my eldest has slept with his every night since he was 16 months old (he's 5 1/2). They love to cook with me & draw & watch Disney movies with me & sing along (both of them adore The Little Mermaid & Frozen). Yet every day there are the invariable "Mum, will you hit the ball with me? Mum will you play soccer with us?" Or the dreaded train set is dragged out & i am expected to play. And they are FAR more prevalent than the other. I join in (reluctantly) but I LOATHE it. And that is how I think Dads of girls might feel having to "deal with" girl stuff.


Of course you are right and yes a lot of times it is hard for either side (dad-daughters, mom-sons) to enjoy or even relate to many activities that our children have fun doing.
But my opinion is that it hasn't have to be black or white. The stereotypes like pink for girls-blue for boys or soccer for boys and ballet for girls don't have to be that way.
I think a lot of these can change and it starts from us, the parents. We have to let our children try a lot of different things and then decide on their own what activities, dressing styles etc they prefer.

[atomic sagebrush]

There is every possibility in the world that the daughter you get may not be the daughter of your dreams anyway. I get very nervous when I see people who feel like they will have more of a bond with their daughters over girly girly stuff because not all girls even like that. :/

[2boysJustOneGirl]

I am really not a girly girl. I am pretty low maintenance and I hate pink and headbands with big flowers on them! I hate how girls are stereotyped and sexualized. The thought of raising a girl in a world where we actually make (and purchase) bikinis for toddlers disgusts me! But I still want her. I just want to see her grow, see who she becomes, how she interprets the world. I don't have a ton of expectations. I have two boys that I get I see do that and now I want a girl. Simple. Dammit!


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[atomic sagebrush]

That is the way I feel too. :) Having a girl was never about mani-pedis for me LOL (not that there is anything wrong with that, just that I get worried when I see people assume they will have a girly-girl bond with a daughter when that may not necessarily be the case)

[jmomof3girls]

Something very interesting I observed about my husband, is that our first two boys are not "man's men" in any way (not sporty or outdoorsy types) and while of course he does love them and all that, I think he had a weird kind of GD for a more traditional boy-boy and was very happy when our 3rd and 4th boys came along. It was like even tho he had sons, he did not have the "son experience" that he wanted. I can totally see how a man surrounded by tea parties and stuff may not be feeling like he is having the parenting experience he dreamed of - even though he totally LOVES his daughers, it's just not the dream. And i just feel very badly for them because the "you are a horrible person" remarks that we all get for wanting daughters, they get 10fold and can't even always rely on their wives to be willing to TTC again.

Atomic, This is one of the reasons why I decided to ttc for a 4th child. I was originally felt like 3 was a lot but my DH wanted to try one more time. He said he would be fine with another girl. He just wanted 1 more try. He's a great father and husband so I thought why not? I had a strong desire for a boy too but 4 kids seemed like a bit much. I love having a big family now.
I like the way you view things Atomic. People can learn a lot from you!!

[2boysJustOneGirl]

I only wish I had the luxury to worry about my husband! He is an avid hunter/fisherman and he is beyond pleased that he has two sons to entertain that lifestyle. He and his brother still hunt with their dad. I always remind him how much I hope at least one of our sons is gay so I can have somebody to shop with someday. And those are all stereotypes I know! But a girl can dream. I want my husband to have things I common with his sons but at the same time it breaks my heart.

I try to picture what I would be like if I had two girls, if I would be content and happy. I think I would. You just can't compare a mothers desire for a daughter to a mothers desire for a son. It's way too different on so many levels. If I wanted a gender for my husband....cannot fathom it, cannot compare it to what I am feeling.



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[PrimalMamma]

Yeah, I'm with you 100% 2boys. I had this discussion with my husband yesterday. As encouraging & lovely as he is about it all, as I said to him - he has his boys. He just cannot understand what it is to feel so isolated in my own home as I do. It's so lonely.

[jmomof3girls]

Hmmmm. I guess you're right. My gender desire can't possibly be as strong because I already have girls.

[trifecta]

The idea of the million dollar family, one boy and one girl offspring, is an old idea and we still hang on to it. Why? There must be some merit to. Maybe those families are happier, live longer, don't experience divorce, don't experience depression? I don't know what exactly it is but there must be some kind of evolutionary reason why mixed gender families are desired so much.

I prefer to think the opposite is true--the genes of those of us with one sex are so desirable that nature wants to make sure we keep going! :bigsmile: I'm only kidding about the great genes but I do think it is mother nature's ruse to keep us popping out kids!

[trifecta]

Yes, my husband is a manly man also. He has this secret side of him that does tea parties with the girls though. It's pretty cool because you would never know that about him.
One of my fondest childhood memories of my dad was playing beauty parlor with him.

[2boysJustOneGirl]

I think I am predisposed to GD because of the birth order of my family. I am the middle child, older sister younger brother. My sister and I were born two years apart and my brother came 6 years after me. There is not a doubt in my mind my parents, more my dad, wished I had been a boy. My dad wasn't a very good father figure for this, and other reasons. When my brother came along, the protocol son, I felt it. That sense of being the unwanted child. I grew up with enough love to become a normal member of society but I still felt it. And now here I am, with gender desire like a crazy person. But I LOVE my brother. I am closer with him than my sister. And I love my sons. But all that doesn't change a thing about my longing for a daughter.


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[atomic sagebrush]

Hmmmm. I guess you're right. My gender desire can't possibly be as strong because I already have girls.

Oh Jana I'm so sorry that is NOT what anyone is saying here. That is the downside of these threads is that sometimes people say things to make themselves feel better but it makes others feel worse and that is NOT ok. Please ladies, think before you post. Some ladies do want boys and/or want only boys, and I don't think anyone has the right or knowledge to say that the two cannot be compared and it is very hurtful to the blue swayers.

FWIW I had a super strong gender desire for a boy with my first - it was just that I GOT him. I wanted a boy SO bad. I was SO happy when I delivered him. (more than when I had my DD - that was more just a sigh of relief that she was safe and sound) I have no doubt in my mind that I would be here swaying blue if I had had all girls with just as much passion as I had to get my DD.

[atomic sagebrush]

I think I am predisposed to GD because of the birth order of my family. I am the middle child, older sister younger brother. My sister and I were born two years apart and my brother came 6 years after me. There is not a doubt in my mind my parents, more my dad, wished I had been a boy. My dad wasn't a very good father figure for this, and other reasons. When my brother came along, the protocol son, I felt it. That sense of being the unwanted child. I grew up with enough love to become a normal member of society but I still felt it. And now here I am, with gender desire like a crazy person. But I LOVE my brother. I am closer with him than my sister. And I love my sons. But all that doesn't change a thing about my longing for a daughter.


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My dad also had GD for a boy, I believe. But I am not sure that's why I had GD at all. Honestly, I was very happy as a boy mom for many years, GD was something that really sneaked up on me. I had no gender preference when I got pg with my 3rd son and I was shocked to find myself crying in the bathroom at my ultrasound. It was like, where did this even come from? It was so not me.

I think we are taught to look for some complicated psychological explanation for why we have the feelings that we do but sometimes there is no explanation. The heart wants what it wants.

[2boysJustOneGirl]

Jana I think you may have been hurt by my comment? That wasn't my intention. I only wanted to try explain that the feelings must be so different from each other, I don't believe one desire is stronger than the other...just different. I'm sorry.

The truth is all boy and all girl moms are treated much differently by society. We each carry a different persona that isn't anywhere the perfection of a PP mom. Boy moms, and I stand by this, are pitied by most and considered "unlucky". That is different than a girl mom and most definitely different than a PP mom. That persona that I as a boy mom bear, is depressing for me. To be looked at by fellow moms and be pitied is truly isolating, as if being a mom isn't hard enough! Society more readily accepts women that have all girls...whereas I am often left feeling like an Outlander.


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[2boysJustOneGirl]

My dad also had GD for a boy, I believe. But I am not sure that's why I had GD at all. Honestly, I was very happy as a boy mom for many years, GD was something that really sneaked up on me. I had no gender preference when I got pg with my 3rd son and I was shocked to find myself crying in the bathroom at my ultrasound. It was like, where did this even come from? It was so not me.

I think we are taught to look for some complicated psychological explanation for why we have the feelings that we do but sometimes there is no explanation. The heart wants what it wants.

I don't think anybody intends to have GD, it's like a surprise visit from hell I think. I don't blame my dad for my issues and I guess I relate it back to that because maybe I just connected with him on a level I didn't think possible. When I found out my second baby was another boy I was crushed. So I guess I know how he likely felt when I came along and just knowing that hurts me. That mixture of love and disappointment for your child.


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[PrimalMamma]

Yes to boy mums being pitied, 100%. I'm really feeling it now people are finding out I'm pregnant. "Oh you MUST be hoping for a girl... What are you going to do with THREE boys?!" Like my sons aren't good enough. My friends with mixed genders rubbing it in: "Oh I HOPE it's a girl for you, it's SO different, so much more fun..." And even a one of all-girl parent "I would just DIE if I'd had boys, what do you even DO with them?! I just CAN'T imagine... Anyway I've got HEAPS of AMAZING dresses you can have..." I never answer these people truthfully, I tell them all that I just want a healthy baby & having little boys is super fun & that I'm keen to supply the local football team with as many players as possible. Then I go & cry. And then I feel ashamed that I feel that way at all. My little boys are incredible & amazing & precious beyond words but I want a little girl. And I didn't feel the GD that strongly until I was pregnant. I didn't really have it woth my second DS, I did a little but it was only a moment of feeling a bot bummed out before I was able to embrace having another son. This time I feel like I will be completely devastated. I didn't sway very hard because it didn't matter to me before I was pregnant. Now that I am I have huge regrets & feel like I'm doomed.

[jmomof3girls]

I understand, I would definitely be sad if I didn't have a DD. I do want to let you know that you do also get pity for being an all girl mom. I rude get comments all the time. I have friends tell me stories about their sons and how close they are with them and how special their relationships are with them than their daughters. When I found out DD3 was a girl NOBODY congratulated me. Not even 1 friend or family member. Everyone said "oh". I'll never forget the looks of disappoint on all of their faces because she wasn't a boy. I'm the only one with 3 of one gender around me so I get it. I don't want you to think that it's all sunshine and roses to be an all girl mom. It might be harder for an all boy mom but unless you have a perfect PP you're always going to get the rudeness. Luckily I don't care what people think but if did I would be very depressed. I can see where you must feel very down. Have you decided of you're going to do HT or swaying?

[jmomof3girls]

Oh Jana I'm so sorry that is NOT what anyone is saying here. That is the downside of these threads is that sometimes people say things to make themselves feel better but it makes others feel worse and that is NOT ok. Please ladies, think before you post. Some ladies do want boys and/or want only boys, and I don't think anyone has the right or knowledge to say that the two cannot be compared and it is very hurtful to the blue swayers.

FWIW I had a super strong gender desire for a boy with my first - it was just that I GOT him. I wanted a boy SO bad. I was SO happy when I delivered him. (more than when I had my DD - that was more just a sigh of relief that she was safe and sound) I have no doubt in my mind that I would be here swaying blue if I had had all girls with just as much passion as I had to get my DD.

Aww thanks atomic, you're great! :happy: thanks for sharing that story. I love it!!

[2boysJustOneGirl]

I understand, I would definitely be sad if I didn't have a DD. I do want to let you know that you do also get pity for being an all girl mom. I rude get comments all the time. I have friends tell me stories about their sons and how close they are with them and how special their relationships are with them than their daughters. When I found out DD3 was a girl NOBODY congratulated me. Not even 1 friend or family member. Everyone said "oh". I'll never forget the looks of disappoint on all of their faces because she wasn't a boy. I'm the only one with 3 of one gender around me so I get it. I don't want you to think that it's all sunshine and roses to be an all girl mom. It might be harder for an all boy mom but unless you have a perfect PP you're always going to get the rudeness. Luckily I don't care what people think but if did I would be very depressed. I can see where you must feel very down. Have you decided of you're going to do HT or swaying?

I don't care what ppl think either. It's the comments and social exclusion from mother-daughter things that gets me down. We are swaying. Soon. How about you?


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[2boysJustOneGirl]

Oh Jana I'm so sorry that is NOT what anyone is saying here. That is the downside of these threads is that sometimes people say things to make themselves feel better but it makes others feel worse and that is NOT ok. Please ladies, think before you post. Some ladies do want boys and/or want only boys, and I don't think anyone has the right or knowledge to say that the two cannot be compared and it is very hurtful to the blue swayers.

FWIW I had a super strong gender desire for a boy with my first - it was just that I GOT him. I wanted a boy SO bad. I was SO happy when I delivered him. (more than when I had my DD - that was more just a sigh of relief that she was safe and sound) I have no doubt in my mind that I would be here swaying blue if I had had all girls with just as much passion as I had to get my DD.

My bad. I think the soy isoflavone is making me very testy. I almost hit my husband in the back of the head with a spoon today! I was being insensitive and not really thinking in my comment.

It's hard to say where i would be without my sons. Maybe I would be content, maybe not. All I know is when you are in the deep GD there is no right thing to say and nobody can tell me what I need to hear.

[PrimalMamma]

Janamom I'm sorry if it sounded unsupportive... I've got a close friend who just got a DS after 2 DDs & I know she had very strong GD. Although admittedly I found it hard to look at her purpose-built walk-in wardrobe full of more tiny dresses & shoes than her two daughters could ever possibly need & understand her GD but I guess that's because she has exactly what I want. There is a loveliness about having sons, I am their first love. They are always telling me I'm beautiful, stroking my face & calling me their "darling", & my 3 year old currently gets very upset when I tell him he can't marry me when he grows up! (apparently he's now going to marry Grandma!) I guess for me it's about being lonely in my own home. Everyone is male here - even the dog! I want someone's hair to braid, I want someone to shop with & in the future I want someone to help choose their dress for their high school formal (Australian for prom). I want someone to take for their first bra fitting & to help navigate through getting her first period & learning to apply makeup. My mum didn't do any of those things, she is a sporty tomboy & wanted me to be like that & I wasn't. And maybe my daughter would be a "throw back" to that but if she is she will have her brothers & her dad & her sporty grandma (& the dog!) to bond with & will be ok.

[trifecta]

I agree that wanting a boy is much the same as wanting a girl. I wanted a boy first, too. It was just something I had envisioned ever since my nephew was born. I think we're all in the same boat; we all feel something is missing. What I empathized with in 2boysJustOneGirl's post was that, like her husband, my husband is thrilled to have two boys and he just doesn't understand at all why I would want anything different since what we have is, in his opinion, perfect.

I've wondered if maybe for mothers of girls-only there's an element of guilt because women often really enjoy that mother-daughter relationship and maybe worry that it's something you're enjoying at your husband's expense. If so it is certainly undeserved guilt and you were no more in control of what sex you had than anyone else.

[Mamato3?]

Being an all girls mom is also very hard. You feel you are not strong enough to produce male offsprings, you feel you have let down your beloved DH and his family (especially when you are close to them and have good relationship) and as far as i'm concerned I have to tolerate with jerks that tease my DH asking him "when are you going to have a son finally?" He doesn't show any sorrow, but I know he feels uncomfortable and it makes my feeling of unsufficiency even worse when these idiots have the chance to hurt his ego because we don't have a son.... Every side of the coin has its issues.

[PrimalMamma]

Actually Mamato3 you are right... My husband is dealing with similar guilt regarding not being able to "give me" a girl. He feels responsible, given that it's his sperm that essentially "decides" the gender. He is a control freak normally & finds it very disconcerting to be powerless over his own sperm to decide which one meets the egg first. Also, he always wanted a daughter first & even chose her name when he was about 10 years old, Isabella Catherine (which we will no longer use due to our family already having too many Isabella's!) I guess GD is a complex & multifacited issue with different shades of disappointment, fear & stress for everyone involved.

[Mrs_Incredible]

My husband felt the same, that i was outnumbered and he was powerless to do anything for us to get the dd we have both longed for. He saw that i was sad, he held me after our scan with ds3 and wiped away my tears (i think it hit me so hard because we swayed ig style for 10 months and had 2 losses along the way). I was lucky that he wanted a daughter too. He went for number 4 fully believing it would be a boy (as did i) just so i would be content that we gave it every shot we could, he did it for me as he felt being 38&39 we were getting too old but wanted to make me happy. We got lucky, it's a girl, and to see the shock, disbelief and joy on his face when i gave him a card telling him we were having a daughter was priceless. I didn't think we stood a chance. GD sucks regardless of what gender your heart desires, or if you are the mum or dad with the desire. To not have the understanding of your other half must make it so much harder xx

[sweetdream]

My dh felt the same.
Though he would be happy leaving it with the 3 boys.
He knew how much my hard aches for a girl. Also he would love one too.

I don't think its nessacary to compare any emotions.
Last time a saw someone being put down cause of GD. She should have been happy to concieve at all. Cause they couldn't.

I don't get the sociaty were everything is put next to each other.
Why may ppl not just feel how they feel. Why must the one be worse then the other.
Everything seems to be a competition.
It's with the children who is cutest brightest fastest or even sickest.

I know it wasn't ment this way. And we want to be supportive to all. Sometimes we sorrow in our own grieve to much to see others grieve. Wether its the same or different. Its still grieve.

I don't think that all ppl with pp can't relate or dont understand.
Some ppl are just dumb. But not all. Some ppl do understand and want to chear us up. But we just feel resentfull towards them. Cause they have something we want. Its not always fair to put everything in their lap. Sometimes we need to look in the mirror and own our thoughts and feelings.

I don't want to sound harsh or something cause I DO understand GD. Very well.
I know i'm lucky to finally get my DG.
But it doesnt erase years of emotions and bad feelings. I know some ppl are just plain rude. But some really mean well but i just made the comments worse in my head.

Hope you guys understand what i'm saying

[Mrs_Incredible]

This is one of the only places (except irl a few close friends and my family) where i could express honestly my desire for a daughter without it being bashed because "you get what you get/lucky to have children" etc, where the desire for a dd or ds is understood. It's not something you can really be open about irl. Especially talking to someone who has their dg, they can be the cruelest and most harsh imo. They don't need to get it, they have their hearts desire. I will always remember my desire and how close i was to saying goodbye to a lifelong dream, and how sad and lonely that felt in my heart x

[2boysJustOneGirl]

I think you are all right. I never intended any harm in my post and I am actually sorry I posted anything at all. Won't happen again. As I said before, when you are in the depths of gender desire there is no right thing anybody can say and I guess that includes myself. So I am just going to shut up, it's too easy to miscalculate and misuse words when you are highly emotional and I am not up for being a villain in a place where we are all supposed to have the freedom to express our gender desire.

[Mrs_Incredible]

2boysjustonegirl - that's what this forum is for hun, don't stop posting, that's why we have this safe place!! I think i responded to the posts just before mine rather than the original. Gd sucks. If i hadn't had ig (back in 2009-2011) and then this site i would have gone mad. I have 3 boys and always felt the outsider as i was the only all boy mum surrounded by little girls with both family and friends having girls. I have a wonderful friend who is very open about the fact she would have been gutted for her only child to have been a boy despite facing ivf just before she fell pg. I don't think you said anything that we've not all felt or faced or lived. Huge hugs xxx

[Dreamofpink]

I too am so thankful for this forum. The sheen of wonderful new babyness has worn off now ds3 is older & GD came back with a vengeance about 4 months ago. I'm still desperate for my own DD & want to start ttc in the new year. The only problem is that AF hasn't returned due to me still bf. Ds3 is now 10 months old! It came back at 8 months pp with my last two. DH I think will allow me to try again but very reluctantly. He is so happy with his boys & says it's just the way the cookie crumbles. He was happy to be done at two & says three is more than enough when I say I want a big family. I'd like two more. I love my boys so so much but hate that left-out feeling too. DH says that if we'd had girls, he'd have been slightly disappointed but not enough to do anything about it. He'd have stuck at two regardless of gender. I just cannot give this dream up, I can't. I feel so close to tears right now, especially after finding out today that my SIL had her girl a month ago. DH is estranged from his family so we found out by looking on FB. I try to keep that deep dark fluttering of fear of never having a dd locked deep down, but I can feel it trying to get to the surface. I desperately want to buy a plan but need to run it by DH first as we share all our finances. I'm just scared to talk plans rather than how I just gently remind him atm that I'm not done. I don't want arguments, I just wish he got it & I hate his family for their complete lack of empathy. He tries but having never had much understanding come his way as a child, it's not that easy for him. :( I feel quite alone eventhough I have all-boy friends but one who has 5 boys is very happy with no GD. The other (with 3 boys) I don't think would admit to GD but she isn't done so I'm guessing she's still holding out hope! I hate GD :(

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[sweetdream]

You shouldn't shut up. I think what you just said is perfect.
You aknowledge that you own the part were Some of the GD is your own. And your allowed too. You are in deep without judging anyone.

The forum is here to support you. Just spill how you feel.


We all have had Some or all of those feelings.
And they are horrible. But sometimes you can't help yourself
But I would advise you to enjoy what you have and see the if you can seperats you GD from your children that you have. (Easyer said then done) it needs time.
And maybe try to think positive.

Just that there was still a small shot for our DG helped me through tough times.
And while I was doing great most times there were times GD overwhelmed me. Sometimes you just need to let that go and give it a place.

There will be better times for you too.
Don't stop talking. Its written words. I love the way ppl communicate here.
There was a disagreement or misunderstanding and its been discussed in a very respectful way!
As it Should be.
I think everyone deserves a compliment for that.


Big hugs

[sweetdream]

Dreamofpink. I'm sorry bout your inlaws!
I hope you can run it by your DH.
I reminded mine sometimes too. If he was willing to try one last time
We did Some old wives tail sway with ds2
We didn't hear bout good swaying till ds3 was Born.
A friend got a girl with swaying GD-style.

She helped me.
I was lucky with a supportive DH and mother.
I didn't tell others bout swaying.

But just the support of those 2 helped. It took us 3yrs to TTC again. We almost left it at that. We gave ourselfs six months. Got pg on the 5th.

I hope everyone will get there DG or at least soms peace of mind

[Mamato3?]

I think you are all right. I never intended any harm in my post and I am actually sorry I posted anything at all. Won't happen again. As I said before, when you are in the depths of gender desire there is no right thing anybody can say and I guess that includes myself. So I am just going to shut up, it's too easy to miscalculate and misuse words when you are highly emotional and I am not up for being a villain in a place where we are all supposed to have the freedom to express our gender desire.

2boys you are not a villain, why do you feel this way?
Your thread gave us the chance to discuss several issues like girl and boy stereotypes as well as the reasons each one of us suffers GD.
As far as I'm concerned you have every right to feel GD as well as everybody here.
I haven't felt offended by your posts, I just wanted to share with you and the other ladies how it feels on the other side of the fence.
I'm sorry if my comments have made you feel uncomfortable, it wasn't my intention.
I truly hope everybody suffering from GD ends up having their desired child, because it very hard to cope with it and only we understand how hard it is.

[2boysJustOneGirl]

2boys you are not a villain, why do you feel this way?
Your thread gave us the chance to discuss several issues like girl and boy stereotypes as well as the reasons each one of us suffers GD.
As far as I'm concerned you have every right to feel GD as well as everybody here.
I haven't felt offended by your posts, I just wanted to share with you and the other ladies how it feels on the other side of the fence.
I'm sorry if my comments have made you feel uncomfortable, it wasn't my intention.
I truly hope everybody suffering from GD ends up having their desired child, because it very hard to cope with it and only we understand how hard it is.

I really don't mean to offend anybody or make anybody feel worse than they already do! To me that is a villain! Anyway please don't apologize. Please don't anybody apologize! It's all good.

[atomic sagebrush]

I think you are all right. I never intended any harm in my post and I am actually sorry I posted anything at all. Won't happen again. As I said before, when you are in the depths of gender desire there is no right thing anybody can say and I guess that includes myself. So I am just going to shut up, it's too easy to miscalculate and misuse words when you are highly emotional and I am not up for being a villain in a place where we are all supposed to have the freedom to express our gender desire.

Everyone is welcome to vent and post about anything they like, but a reminder of the fact that sometimes things can be hurtful to those who want the opposite gender as you, is at times a necessity.

The reason why this can be a safe place for people to post is because we keep to a higher standard as mature adults and that means taking a moment before posting to consider if it might be hurtful to others. :)

[PrimalMamma]

I'm hoping this strong GD either dies down soon when my hormones settles or after birth. I didn't have hugely strong GD before I conceived, I certainly wanted a daughter but not enough to put myself through an aggressive sway. Now I'm regretting that enormously but I am wondering if it's just hormonal. Either way there is nothing I can do about it now, this baby is coming & the gender is already decided. Hopefully I get lucky in spite of my lax sway as this is the last baby regardless. And if this baby is a boy (probable) I hope I don't regret the choices I made for the rest of my life. Right now I feel like I will.

[Mrs_Incredible]

Primal i was the same. I did a laid back sway helped along by a 6 week blighted ovum pg where i felt ill before the bfp. Queue hardly eating etc. I then regretted not dong a proper sway. Was told probably boy at my 12 week scan. But i knew i just wasn't cut out for proper swaying. I'd Tried. And was rubbish at it. I knew the month I'd conceived was the closest I'd get to a sway. But i certainly felt regret. I think anyone who gets an opposite will think woulda, coulda, shoulda regardless if they do a kitchen sink or laid back sway. Its human nature. Hormones don't help! xx

[1+2+3boys]

I think this post has turned out to be lovely. So many things I agreed with over the last few pages along with some heart warming reads but too many to reply to directly as it's too much to remember. I have never seen another forem as nice and supportive as this one and mis understandings are soon cleared up and forgotten :D

[Dreamofpink]

Dreamofpink. I'm sorry bout your inlaws!
I hope you can run it by your DH.
I reminded mine sometimes too. If he was willing to try one last time
We did Some old wives tail sway with ds2
We didn't hear bout good swaying till ds3 was Born.
A friend got a girl with swaying GD-style.

She helped me.
I was lucky with a supportive DH and mother.
I didn't tell others bout swaying.

But just the support of those 2 helped. It took us 3yrs to TTC again. We almost left it at that. We gave ourselfs six months. Got pg on the 5th.

I hope everyone will get there DG or at least soms peace of mind

Thanks Sweetdream. Congrats on your dd! It must be like a dream come true. I want to sway twice more regardless of gender but we'll see. I've learned a lot since my sway opposite last year. It's wonderful to see the site evolve & sways being refined. It's always been such a supportive site & 1+2+3boys you are so right about everyone here. We're all here because we get it & I'll always be thankful to NBP & Atomic for all the hard work they put into running it. It's not just about the swaying the community is absolutely invaluable :heart:

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