Studies showing that abstinance/frequent release sways?

[rainbowflower]

Does anyone have any links to studies showing that frequency of intercourse sways pink? I've had a good search on Google and haven't had any luck.

I found one study suggesting that a 7-10 day abstinance increases the proportion of X-sperm slightly:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0015028297002471

and I found a book which suggested that frequent intercourse swayed blue because it resulted in an earlier conception: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Pj7qnU-cF6YC&pg=PA296&lpg=PA296&dq=sex+ratio+frequency+coital&source=bl&ots=H8p321SsVV&sig=lv7_DY-jnMYge-G2_6_kWYh2idQ&hl=en&ei=qHsyTvGnIIjOhAez-vH5Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=frequency&f=false

Does anyone have any better links for me to read? (apologies if there is a section for this elsewhere, I can't find it)


Because both of those are meant to lower sperm count, is there any study which proves that a lower sperm count sways pink?

[Indira]

Good question rainbow, I´ve been looking for it unsuccesfully too.

[zanacal]

As far as I know the aim isn't to change the proportion of x to xy sperm because that's not believed to be possible, but the aim is to lower sperm count. There's some information in this study: (I've copied the relevant section below but you'll have to go to the study if you want to follow to the links.)

http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/198/1/3.full

Heat stress in mice and sperm quality and fertility
Perez-Crespo et al. (2007) reported that male mice were exposed to heat stress and then mated 6 h later with unexposed females. These authors noted that heat stress has deleterious effects on sperm quality, and they found that the resulting offspring sex ratio was significantly low. They cited a study reporting analogous findings viz that in red deer, sperm quality of males also correlated positively and significantly with offspring sex ratio (Gomendio et al. 2006). The author has offered an explanation of the latter data (James 2007). The author suggests that this explanation may apply also to the data of Perez-Crespo et al. (2007). The correlation between sperm quality and offspring sex ratio is secondary to correlations of both with paternal testosterone/gonadotrophin ratio.

Gomendio et al. (2006) also reported a significant positive correlation between the total fertility of red deer and their offspring sex ratio. A similar association has been described in human families. A century ago, the largest European families contained slightly but significantly higher proportion of boys (Schutzenberger 1950, Edwards 1958). This occurred in spite of negative associations between a) sex ratio and b) birth order and paternal age (James 1987). The association between human fertility and sex ratio may also be mediated by paternal T.

[zanacal]

Here's an old post:

http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?490-Lower-sperm-count-favors-females..-some-rambling

I guess Atomic may have more to add to it now!

[atomic sagebrush]

First of all I am sorry that I don't have all the links together in one post. I am doing my best but there are only so many hours in the day and my family has a lot of needs right now. (My husband yelled at me for like 2 hours this weekend because the house was messy and I'm spending like 6 hours 3 days a week on here while taking care of two toddlers and two teens, and it really is all I can spare. I have to be away from home half the week right now due to illness in the family, and I don't have a laptop. Please if you can bear with me I promise this site will be fab over the course of time.)

Anyway, the book (which I was aware of and have been saving pennies to buy) is just describing one theory about gender ratio - just because it's in book form, I hope no one gives it any more or less weight than any of the other theories about gender ratio. William James thinks it's variations in hormones and that timing does matter in swaying and the book was just describing that theory that he has. Again, as I said in another post last week, IF there is any correlation between conception early in the cycle and more boys it is likely that it's only because primarily people who are highly fertile are the only ones capable of conceiving that far out and are also more likley to conceive boys, while people who are less fertile may only be able to conceive right on O and are also more likely to conceive girls. So it is entirely possible (I would go so far as to say probable) that any supposed correlations between day of insemination and gender are nothing more than red herrings. (Also, all these studies are done on people who aren't already doing 700 other things to sway.)

Secondly, abstinence DOES sway pink, but the problem is that abstinence may not be safe for people over 35. Not from any difference in X and Y sperm (which is pretty miniscule as stated in the study, less than 1% difference, to quote from the study itself "This change of borderline statistical significance probably has little impact on the secondary sex ratio". Plus, this variation may be nothing other than a natural anyway - you're never going to get precisesly 50-50 X and Y sperm in any given sampling) but also from overall lowering sperm count. There is at least one study and maybe more out there that indicate this, and I'm sorry that I don't have time to find them right now, that show an increased risk of birth defects after 7-10 days of abstinence. For sure it makes less healthy sperm and lower chances of pg. Sicne we are already doing a lot to lower our odds of pg, it may be that abstinence/unhealthy sperm is just too much to overcome. I am trying to maximize odds of pg with chances at a baby girl, and so I think frequent BD is better than abstinence. But of course people are welcome to abstain and I do think it sways, maybe even better than frequent does.

There are TONS of studies that show lower sperm count = more girls. Everything that lowers sperm count sways pink...riding a bike, being exposed to pesticides, electromagnetic fields, etc. Frequent BD DOES lower sperm count without the DNA damage that abstinence can cause. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article2665788.ece

[atomic sagebrush]

Here's an old post:

http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?490-Lower-sperm-count-favors-females..-some-rambling

I guess Atomic may have more to add to it now!

That thread was very old and I had not even fully researched the differences between X and Y sperm at that point. There IS NOT a difference between electrical charge of X and Y sperm.

For everyone who did not closely read the study above that Rainbow posted, the difference in number of X and Y sperm after abstinence is MINISCULE and may be nothing more than a natural variation, only 10 guys with two ejaculations were even studied. I think it was like 1/2 a percent difference after abstinence, and that could very very well be nothing more than coincidence. Even after 7-10 days abstinence there will still be millions upon millions of both X and Y sperm in your hubby's testicles.

I had read that study before several times and I took and still take it for evidence that X and Y sperm basically live the same amount of time and are equally hardy, not the other way around...I'm actually kinda surprised by this thread!!!:think:

[rainbowflower]

thank you for all those links -

zanacal - I guess I need to get my DH to wear some briefs! lol. Even if just for around ovulation!

AS - don't apologise, we all know you have a hectic life and there is no rush! That Times Online link is interesting. I see it was 4 years ago and was a preliminary study, I wonder if they did a proper study after that one. On it, it says that daily DTD might increase fertility, so that makes me wonder if it really would sway pink... or if people who have to do that to conceive have some other hormonal/health issue that's causing it in the first place.


I don't mean this in a naggy way (AS - please don't take it that way lol), because really there is no rush, but it would be great to one day have a big reference list of links to all the key swaying studies so people can read them too. I know they exist scattered around, but it would be good to have them all together too.

[atomic sagebrush]

But understand that the doctor simply means that it increases fertility as opposed to abstinence!!! And I also believe that he would tell every one of his patients to DTD every other day or every two days for max. numbers because numbers WILL drop with BD every day. That article was not super clear on that.

I know...at first I thought it would be nice to just put them in the appropriate essays rather than having them all isolated in one area that no one ever went to but I can see now it is best to have both options available for people.

[purplepoet20]

With DS1 we DTD 2-4 x's a day, we were fairly young and just starting our relationship. I was also on the pill and made sure took it everyday. With DS2 we were lucky to get 1 a day or even 2x's a week. So something happened.

We are doing freq bding right now because I saw the studies on abstaining and birth defects. I want a healthy baby so it just made since to do freq bding. And also I made sure we stayed 5-3 days before O so there is no 7-10 day old sperm waiting.

[zanacal]

I'm sure abstinence of 7-10 days would sway for us because I'm fairly certain that it's something DH hasn't done since puberty! When I first found out about swaying and stumbled across IG I read that the very best thing to do was to abstain so I mentioned it to DH and he said it was impossible and that even if he tried it he'd wake in the night and find nature had done it for him - perhaps this is a sign that he has high testosterone levels lol! We'll DTD every day (and I don't think that's *quite* the norm for him!) instead.

Atomic - thanks so much for all you do for this site. I'm sure you could answer the threads quicker than you do by putting less thought into them and making them less detailed but the information would be far less helpful. I sometimes forget that you have toddlers as well as your older boys and when I remember I really don't know how you do it!

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes, I was going to mention that part as well but I forgot!!! It doesn't matter if a swaying tactic is more effective if it doesn't work for you as a couple. If I told my husband to abstain for 7-10 days it would ahve gone over like a lead balloon!!!

PS Thank you Z for the support...sorry if I sounded whiny there. Rough weekend and I don't want to give up this site which has become very important to me, so I can vaccuum all day every day. :P

[swish]

Sorry if you're having a rough time, atomic, hugs to you, we appreciate all your time and information very much :)

[rainbowflower]

pp20 - the birth defect thing puts me off abstaining now too
AS - vaccuuming won't change the world ;)

[atomic sagebrush]

Thanks guys!

[Princess of Pink]

With DD#1 we DTD every day all through the cycle...for about 4 months in a row...but I was on BCP the first 3 months.

[Flava]

atomic hugs to you! Don't let DH yell at you. Tell him this is not how you was when we got together!:wink:

[atomic sagebrush]

Thanks you guys!!! Men, they start off so nice, don't they!! Grr. Oh well.

[atomic sagebrush]

With DD#1 we DTD every day all through the cycle...for about 4 months in a row...but I was on BCP the first 3 months.

Wow that is dedication! Your DH is a machine!!!

[suregena]

Oh, dear! I had been planning on abstinence with a cut off, but now I don't know (like with most things... I think I've got a plan formulated then I read something additional on here and then I'm back to "I DON'T KNOW!!!")
I'm concerned about birth defects now!

Oof. Abstinence isn't difficult for us, sadly, because between our son and my husband's odd work patterns + my job, we rarely have the chance or energy to do anything. He is always so tired that he doesn't even really self-release.

Before our son, our jobs were different and we were pretty regular with doing things. Not so much these days.

But, anyway. I'm confused again. Hmmm.

[love being a mummy]

like with most things... I think I've got a plan formulated then I read something additional on here and then I'm back to "I DON'T KNOW!!!")
Me too

[zanacal]

{hugs} It is difficult but you know, my plan changed several times, even during the month of our attempt - but eventually it became clear what I wanted to do and what felt right for us and I felt comfortable with my choices. Don't worry if you change your mind on different aspects several times, you'll get there in the end!

suregena - would frequent release be possible for you and DH based on what you've said? We had the opposite problem (abstinence was not possible for my DH!) so we went with what would work best for us.

[suregena]

{hugs} It is difficult but you know, my plan changed several times, even during the month of our attempt - but eventually it became clear what I wanted to do and what felt right for us and I felt comfortable with my choices. Don't worry if you change your mind on different aspects several times, you'll get there in the end!

suregena - would frequent release be possible for you and DH based on what you've said? We had the opposite problem (abstinence was not possible for my DH!) so we went with what would work best for us.



Frequent release might be, yes. My husband certainly doesn't turn things down, even when he's tired, but we don't go out of the way to do it. So I think we could do it... especially since for me, the big O isn't a goal. Hahah! So it doesn't matter or not if I'm not into it.

Abstinence would certainly be super easy for us, but I just worry about the impact of quality due to his age (though he is very healthy, vegetarian, etcetera... thin except for his little beer gut... ha) and my past early miscarriages... so now I'm second-guessing myself. :(

[zanacal]

If you feel more comfortable with Frequent Release for that reason then I think it's a very valid one! Don't forget you have the option of having DH release rather than actually DTD every day if you want to stick with one attempt as you would have with the abstinence plan. This is what we did.

[lemon2012]

Suregena,
What about doing a two time attempt with a cut off?

I think I may have come with a plan for myself....BD frequently probably won't work for me...so, 3.5 day cut off and o-1 and 0!
No timing at all...I looked at the moon phases and I just want to get pregnant.

zanacal...did you get DS 3 with a pink sway?

Do you there is a chance of a girl after

[atomic sagebrush]

Oh, dear! I had been planning on abstinence with a cut off, but now I don't know (like with most things... I think I've got a plan formulated then I read something additional on here and then I'm back to "I DON'T KNOW!!!")
I'm concerned about birth defects now!

Oof. Abstinence isn't difficult for us, sadly, because between our son and my husband's odd work patterns + my job, we rarely have the chance or energy to do anything. He is always so tired that he doesn't even really self-release.

Before our son, our jobs were different and we were pretty regular with doing things. Not so much these days.

But, anyway. I'm confused again. Hmmm.

I'm sorry, I WISH that everything could be in agreement, but I just follow the info that is there and I seem to draw majorly different conclusions at times than what the IG crew does.

[atomic sagebrush]

Frequent release might be, yes. My husband certainly doesn't turn things down, even when he's tired, but we don't go out of the way to do it. So I think we could do it... especially since for me, the big O isn't a goal. Hahah! So it doesn't matter or not if I'm not into it.

Abstinence would certainly be super easy for us, but I just worry about the impact of quality due to his age (though he is very healthy, vegetarian, etcetera... thin except for his little beer gut... ha) and my past early miscarriages... so now I'm second-guessing myself. :(

I REALLY think you guys shouldn't do abstain based on your description. Most people I think are prob. fine and the risk was minor, but the way you describe the situation, I think you guys would be better off with compressed FR.

Healthy pg is always my number one goal. If you can't conceive, you have no chance at your DG.

[atomic sagebrush]

Suregena,
What about doing a two time attempt with a cut off?

I think I may have come with a plan for myself....BD frequently probably won't work for me...so, 3.5 day cut off and o-1 and 0!
No timing at all...I looked at the moon phases and I just want to get pregnant.

zanacal...did you get DS 3 with a pink sway?

Do you there is a chance of a girl after

Lemon, I think that is a fine attempt if you feel good about it!! There have been both boys and girls conceived with every possible timing and BD pattern and lowering sway stress ALWAYS helps.

There is DEF. chance of sway succeeding even after one failed sway! I know several ladies with 4-5 boys who swayed once and twice and had opposites, then went onto conceive a baby girl on accident!! o.O

[zanacal]

zanacal...did you get DS 3 with a pink sway?


No, we didn't sway with baby #3.

[lemon2012]

Thanks atomic...I just keep reading women who had two boys and then just went for it...and had a girl.
I am not sure how much I can put into timing when the diet is not going to continue over Christmas and I am barely doing it anyway.
I would love to have a better plan...but I just know I want a solid attempt to just get pregnant...with a girl..lol!
What about a 3 day cut off (could be 2 day, abstain before) and then o plus 12 or less...maybe 8 hours..since I am not sure how perfect I can figure it out.

Atomic, if you were to try (not to late by the way) would timing would you use?

[lemon2012]

Thanks zanacal.
What about this baby?
When do you find out?
Cute pic btw:)

[zanacal]

We swayed for this one, my attempt is in the sway attempts section. If we find out it'll be in around 5 weeks time!

[atomic sagebrush]

Thanks atomic...I just keep reading women who had two boys and then just went for it...and had a girl.
I am not sure how much I can put into timing when the diet is not going to continue over Christmas and I am barely doing it anyway.
I would love to have a better plan...but I just know I want a solid attempt to just get pregnant...with a girl..lol!
What about a 3 day cut off (could be 2 day, abstain before) and then o plus 12 or less...maybe 8 hours..since I am not sure how perfect I can figure it out.

Atomic, if you were to try (not to late by the way) would timing would you use?

Lemon, we have already discussed this via PM (for some reason I thought I had answered all the posts in here and missed a couple) but I do not believe timing sways in any way at all. I would do frequent BD with attempts on 0-2, o-1, and O day to increase odds of pregnancy.

[pink carol]

Hi, Atomic!
DS1 was a one time shot somewhere close to ovulation. I did not take my temperature back then and ignored everything about swaying, but a doctor friend of mine suggested that BD when I had fertile CM would get me pregnant faster. I was 34, so was dh and let's say we abstained for a week until my fertile mucus was apparent.
The three other times I got pregnant, I was actively swaying. The three times we did frequent BD and had cut-offs from 2 to 4 days. Two resulted in miscarriages and the third one in a molar pregnancy. In either case it was too early to know if I got pregnant with a girl.
Now I'm 41 and pregnant with DS2. We did frequent BD (at least four days in a row) and had a cut-off of 3 and a half days. I swayed in every possible way, except LE diet, cardio and dh supps. Do you think we are an extremely fertile couple? Do you think abstaining would be the way to go for us despite our age? Or rather go on frequent bd with cut-off but give hubby licorice root? Do you recommend jump and dump or not? I never jumped and dumped.

[atomic sagebrush]

Abstaining is NEVER the way to go for anyone at 41. It has nothing to do with fertility or speed of getting pregnant at all, it has to do with tiny changes in DNA that your husband's sperm accumulate over the courser of a lifetime

I would not give a 41 year old (or older) man licorice root as a general rule (esp. after frequent m/c and a molar which may actually be partially/totally caused by sperm issues). If a man is over 40, it's best to have the healthiest sperm possible and rely on other things to sway.

Plus, at 41-42 for YOU, you need to get pregnant as quickly as you possibly can. You have no time to play around with any sway tactics that prevent pregnancy in any way. You never know when you'll reach the last fresh egg in the carton and can no longer conceive, and you don't want to look back remembering months that went by swaying that were wasted.

When I got pg at 41 with a girl, the only thing I was doing is LE Diet and vitex (and I had stopped vitex the month before.) We even BD every 4 days, perfect boy frequency, and had the attempt that got me pg the night before O day.

[pink carol]

I did vitex too. I thought of licorice root because I'm afraid of my hubby's super male sperm producing abilities despite all the blocks I put on the way! My idea is that maybe next time I should focus a bit more on his side of the sway. He did drink Oceanspray Cranberry Juice and Diet Coke but except that he does eat his red meat, his salt, he does not exercise often (except running after our son) and is a bit above a healthy weight. Can I combine Rephresh with Aci-jel next time? Despite my age I got pregnant on second try, but I'd rather it took longer and were finally with a girl.

[atomic sagebrush]

Well, I understand wanting to wait and get everything right but even in a "perfect" sway there are no guarantees and waiting can mean no baby. If you can't get pregnant, you have no chance at your DG.

Just by virtue of getting older, his side of the equation is getting more and more pink friendly. Throwing a lot of sway tactics on top of that can mean you don't get pregnant and every month counts when you're over 40. Being a bit above a healthy weight will only help your sway.

Husbands don't need to exercise unless they already like to. Joggers and bikers have been shown to have more daughters than the population as a whole.

I don't think salt sways at all. I only keep it in LE Diet because it's easy enough to do and is good for health. If you have to cheat on anything, cheat on salt, and I think it's fine for husbands to eat salt. Mine did.

You can combine RepHresh and Acijel. The only things that don't mix are a)anything low in pH with Preseed/Conceive plus and b)douche with RepHresh (because RepHresh is designed to keep pH in a narrow range, so if you use douche then RepHresh just raises pH to 4.5-5 anyway so the douche doesn't gain you anything.

[pink carol]

Well, my husband loves to eat and he's a few kilos overweight. He used to lift weights professionally when young so his muscles are very defined, but he's definitely out of shape. There's no fat chance he'll get near enough to the elliptical machine in the near future, hopefully not until our sway in two years (Yes, I know, you fear we're too old in two years). But I'm sure he's very high on the testosterone department. He's an Alpha male and has a stressful job. You still think that due to his age I should not give him any supps? I don't trust his sperm anymore!
What about me? The amount of vitex recommended here in Switzerland is far lower than the supps I find in Amazon. Should I go for that 400 mg dose twice a day when I decide to sway or can I keep it lower?
I had also been using progesterone suppositories to lenghten my luteal phase. Won't too much vitex mess with that?
You also recommended someone to combine Benadryl and Zyrtec in case of too much EWCM? I have bucketfuls! I took sudafed twice in the days leading to ovulation but still had plenty of EWCM. Despite being almost 42 and despite the m/c and molar pregnancy episodes I fear I could be too fertile?
When you recommend to Lemon above to do frequent BD with attemps on o-2, 0-1 and 0 day, you consider frequent BD at least seven times?
A swayer on IG who had gone through all the spreadsheets in IG and I think Fertile Friend, had sort of come to the conclusion that frequent BD (considered as at least four consecutive times in a row) with a 3-4 day cut-off yielded a girl... I don't remember if 70 or 80% of the time. Is four times enough? As a matter of fact, that was what I did (I could not believe my luck that I had fitted that description so perfectly) but then it did not work. I fear getting too close to ovulation. I know you don't care a hoot about timing but I'd be afraid to come too close.
I don't think I read your opinion on jump and dump? I did jump and dump only after 15 minutes of lying in bed.
Sorry, too many questions...

[atomic sagebrush]

Stress doesn't necessarily equal more sons, though. Some guys have stress and it lowers their sperm count. My husband is also "alpha" with a stressful job that is very high in responsibility, plus we've had 4 boys over 20 years, but he still fathered a girl at 42 and our lives were more stressful than ever before at that point. You can't look back at the past to predict the future where swaying is concerned.

I would not have him use licorice root.

We've had success using the 400 mg am and pm (total of 800 mg) and so I hesitate to have you use less than that. It's your call to make, of course! Vitex can help fix your luteal phase and may remove the need for the prog. supplementation.

I hate Sudafed and don't want any woman using it if possible. I believe it to be dangerous. You CAN take both cetirizine and diphenhydramine (Zyrtec and Benadryl in most countries). This was confirmed safe to me by several doctors and pharmacists. Use the cetirizine anywhere from 5 days before your first attempt, up to only once the day of your first attempt (at least 6 hours before) and then with the diphenhydramine, use it only once if you need to, 1-2 hours before your attempt.

I honestly don't recall what I advised for Lemon and I had to delete my PM's from back then because I get so many my mailbox gets full. What I can tell you is that if you do frequent release, you need to have 7 consecutive releases before your FIRST attempt that can get you pregnant. So if you were to do attempts on 0-2, O-1, and O day, you FIRST have to have your husband release for 7 days BEFORE the O-2 attempt. You can't count your attempts in your releases, because then you'd only have 4 releases before O-2 (and you can very easily get pg from attempting on O-2). So 7 days FR, then attempt O-2 (day 8), O-1 (day 9) and O Day (day 10).

Yes, I'm aware of Minerva's Mommy and her analysis of the timing stats. (if memory serves and I do not have time to look it up right this minute, it was NOWHERE near 70-80% of the time, however. If it was, it was in a handful of people and unreliable - once she got more data in, the ratio changed back to 50-50. Sorry it's been a couple months since I read that.) You have to remember, many people who were doing cutoff attempts were trying for a girl and we have no idea what they were doing to sway or if they even Oed when they think they did (tons of people manipulate their temps on FF). Since everyone's heard of Shettles, people who want girls try for a cutoff. They may also have been doing diet, supps, douching, etc and THOSE things were what did the swaying, the timing was just a coincidence.

The best science I have seen demonstrates that 50-50 boys and girls are conceived every day of the cycle and we are getting girls on this site DTD on O-1 and O Day. Just giving it to you straight here, I think it is borderline insanity for a couple over 40 to try for a 3-4 cutoff. It makes it too hard to get pg that way. You don't have ANY time to spare. I know it's hard to believe but a lot can change in 2 years' time.

Just to clarify, it is not that "I don't care a hoot about timing" and I hope you fully understand that I am not simply dismissing it because I don't like timing or for any arbitrary reason whatsoever. If I thought it worked I would be shouting it from every rooftop. It is that Dr. Shettles was 100% wrong with what he claimed to have seen under the microscope (it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell the difference between X and Y sperm, and what he was seeing was capacitated vs. incapacitated sperm) and that all reliable timing information done since, plus all reliable studies on sperm done since, have debunked timing.

I've never dismissed ANYTHING regarding swaying without as full an investigation as I can do and if a new study came out tomorrow that proved timing did sway I'd do a 180. Till then, I have to go with science and science says timing doesn't work and also that it keeps people from getting pregnant.

Jump and dump can be a good sway tactic for some people but I wouldn't do it if I was over 40! (and I didn't, either. I tried it a few months and didn't get pg. The day I conceived my DD I stayed in bed and fell asleep after DTD.) You can compromise and lay down for 5 or 10 minutes rather than 15.

[pink carol]

The post to Lemon is a few posts up on this same thread.
Yes, it was Minervasmom. Of course, it was an informal stat based on her perusing the sites. "If frequent bd avoids ovulation, girls are favored (59.6%). If the frequent bd has at least 4 consecutive bd times and bd avoids obulation, girls are more strongly favored (85.7%)," she writes, and then she adds "this last finding isn't totally reliable as it is a small sample."
Please, Atomic, don't get all worked up when I refer to your disbelief in timing. Old habits die hard. I have two friends who conceived girls with Shettles cut-off and before swaying I went through all the reviews on Shettles book and on the book by a woman (Chesterman-Phillips) who sort of adheres to his theory, and many people claimed success with the method. I have tried so desperately to believe in cut-offs that it's hard for me to undo all that structure in my brain.
You see I myself I'm the living proof that it can fail! Like all of us, I'd so much like to unravel the mystery to the swaying thing in order to get the child of the gender of our dreams and no matter how much I read, the information is so confusing and contradictory.
All I ever wanted was a girl and despite my efforts, here I'm stuck again with a boy. I know I will adore him to bits when he's born, but for the time being I'm having a hard time looking away from the Hello Kitty section of the toystore to refocus on Spiderman and Batman and... more of the same.
Like everyone else, I'm trying to figure out a succesful sway next time, since it will be my last chance, and I want to make sure that the odds are on my favor. I have learnt a lot from your scientific curiosity and the reports you have come up with and I'm sure the key is there. Just need to shake off my absurd notions about timing.

[atomic sagebrush]

I"m not worked up at all, it's just that people who are unfamiliar with me or the site might read that post and no others and then assume that I have flippantly or carelessly dismissed timing when that simply isn't the case at all. And like you say, it's been SO ingrained in people that it's very difficult for me to undo and so if a comment seems to show that I have some sort of axe to grind against timing or that I didn't take it very seriously and investigate it to the absolute best of my ability, I have to respond to that. Not because I have any issue with ~you~ personally but that I'm concerned for the new people who may come along and read only this thread and never post, and then rely on timing for their sway. All I want is for everyone to get their desired gender and I feel that timing is a huge stumbling block that must be removed in order for as many people as possible to acheive that goal.

I went back and looked up Minerva's info and that was in a sample size of 6 charts. Totally useless from a scientific perspective, and well within the realm of luck (if you look at her overall stats, you can see that her early timing studies done in 200 charts often had "patterns" that seemed to sway quite strongly, but then fell to much closer than 50-50 as she added more charts.) I love what Minerva did with that timing study but a sample size of 6 people (preselected to be temping/charting and also self-reported info that may or may not be accurate) jsut doesn't tell us anything of value.

[pink carol]

Atomic, the vitex twice daily but from AF-O or the whole month?

[BeadinMom]

Some people don't ovulate while taking vitex. I've taken it for the last few weeks straight. My attempt is in a few days, a couple days before I expect to ovulate, I will stop it just in case.

[atomic sagebrush]

Atomic, the vitex twice daily but from AF-O or the whole month?

Some people have taken vitex for a full month and then switched to the AF-O pattern. I ~personally~ think we are having better luck when people take it only AF-O (and like Beadinmom says, many of us have had to stop the vitex just before we expect to O because we never O while taking it.) When we take the vitex on again, off again, it mimics the body's natural cycle of two weeks of higher estrogen culminating in ovulation, then 2 weeks of higher progesterone. I think that cycle gets messed up when we take it nonstop.

[pink carol]

The amount of vitex recommended in Switzerland is much lower as the supplements I've seen in Amazon. I took between 20 and 40 mg for about six months or more and it never affected my ovulations. Since I've read everywhere that 400mg would seem like the ideal minimum, maybe I'd take it all month long for three months and then change to the AF-O pattern.
I'm sure vitex was vital in getting me pregnant with a healthy baby in the first place.

[atomic sagebrush]

That is interesting, thanks for letting me know about that!!

[yasmor]

thanks a lot it s very interesting , i never found this articles when i was looking for it