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View Full Version : Lower sperm count favors females.. some rambling



chachamama
January 6th, 2011, 07:41 PM
If a man does a long abstinence (favors low sperm count) or frequent bd (favors low sperm count).. does that mean that MORE female sperm are present in that sample? Or it just means it's still 50/50?

Assuming it's still 50/50 - WHY would low sperm count favor females? Do they just like less competition in the big race to the egg?

I'm curious now.. wonder if there are any theories as to why low sperm count favors female conception.

And if that's the case, would it make sense to use only part of DH's sample if you were TBMing?

atomic sagebrush
January 7th, 2011, 11:14 AM
To the best of our knowledge, it's STILL 50-50. This has been borne out in IVF, where people were told for a long, long time that DH should abstain before giving a sample because RE's thought it would raise sperm count...I've read several studies looking for some dramatic difference but I couldn't find any.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-0528.2010.02731.x/abstract

Now, I don't KNOW for a fact that all these men were told to abstain or did, but I do know that until just last year, abstaining was considered to be a good suggestion for men to increase their sperm count for IVF, so I'm assuming that most of them were. If anything, it looks like from the above study that Y sperm were more succesful at fertilizing the egg in straight IVF. The interesting thing about the above study was, when ICSI was used (sperm had something wrong with them and actually had to be physically injected into the egg in order to fertilize) = more girls. Why?? Did the X sperm look healthier somehow, so the researchers selected them to inject into the eggs more often? Do X sperm somehow resist damage? Or is it that females are overall more resistant to damage, and are therefore more likely to survive than males are, and so an XY conceived from potentially damaged sperm is more likely to either not be selected to implant in the first place, not stick, or be miscarried??

Or is it some external difference, like the solutions or equipment used in IVF/ICSI are different and in some way favor one gender over the other?

Here's an article about the study, sometimes I think those are easier to understand.

http://www.bjog.org/details/news/854713/Fertility_treatment_may_alter_the_gender_balance_. html

What I find interesting is that when there are a good number of sperm on the scene (straight IVF), more males are seeming to be conceived (confounded by the fact that this is in vitro and there may be other factors at play).

Anyway, there ARE theories about this...most are pretty much akin to what I just mentioned, either the idea that X sperm are somehow more resistant to damage, are better able to fertilize an egg WHEN damaged, or that XY fertilized eggs are more fragile and therefore are more likely lost if there was something wrong with the sperm that fertilized them. One intriguing theory that I only just heard about and need to research more, is an idea that when there's a high sperm count, something with the larger numbers of sperm, even when dead or dying, makes the CM somehow better for the Y sperm to live in and swim through.

My own personal theory is, since X sperm are KNOWN to be slightly larger, they may be able to penetrate an egg singlehandedly or with very little help given enough time (it takes many many sperm to allow only one to fertilize the egg), while Y sperm, being smaller, may need or somehow be given a leg up by high numbers of sperm around the egg. Having less sperm around the egg may make it next to impossible for Y sperm to fertilize the egg and so the X wins by default, even if it takes several hours for it to burrow through the egg shell. No difference in the way they swim, their speed, their liking for pH, calcium, or anything...all those things do is just make it extra hard for ALL sperm to reach the egg, so less make it to the egg.

If you were TBM'ing, I do think it could be helpful to use less sperm BUT if your husband is doing a lot of other things to lower his count and you're doing a lot of other things to create hostile CM, and TBM on top of it, that may be too much to overcome for you to get pg.

lindi
January 19th, 2011, 11:06 PM
Well, we do know that X and Y sperm are charged differently? - x are positive, y are negative, and the reaction needed for the sperm to get into the egg is dependent on things like calcium and progesterone. Maybe there is something in the uterus or fallopian tubes that happens that can't be replicated in the IVF setting which gives X sperm a bit more of an advantage?

babydust
January 29th, 2011, 11:07 AM
I think that abstinance probably does have a slightly better sway, but always go by doing the opposite of how you conceived your boys. With my Ds we dtd every other day through O, and with my DD we dtd once around 2.5 days before we O'ed. I think it helped, but who knows ;)

atomic sagebrush
January 29th, 2011, 01:05 PM
Well, we do know that X and Y sperm are charged differently? - x are positive, y are negative, and the reaction needed for the sperm to get into the egg is dependent on things like calcium and progesterone. Maybe there is something in the uterus or fallopian tubes that happens that can't be replicated in the IVF setting which gives X sperm a bit more of an advantage?

I'm sorry, somehow this one sneaked past me. Yes, I believe this could absolutely be the case. However, it just seems that everything that lowers sperm count/kills sperm/makes the CM hostile, invariably seems to sway pink. Even Clomid which raises testosterone!!! Makes me think that there is something to the idea that physically preventing the bulk of the sperm from making it to the egg is the way to go for pink!!

lindi
January 31st, 2011, 12:59 AM
I'm sorry, somehow this one sneaked past me. Yes, I believe this could absolutely be the case. However, it just seems that everything that lowers sperm count/kills sperm/makes the CM hostile, invariably seems to sway pink. Even Clomid which raises testosterone!!! Makes me think that there is something to the idea that physically preventing the bulk of the sperm from making it to the egg is the way to go for pink!!

I think the less sperm thing might be more helpful during the journey within the woman- the way the sperm need- oh god I'm forgetting exactly what it's called- they get supercharged into a frenzy in the fallopian tube because of the woman's chemicals, and then this makes them able to be drawn to the egg via heat and chemical signals from the egg itself- I',m thinkin', less sperm means maybe clearer signals to the x (got it reversed above- negatively charged) or maybe less sperm somehow gives those sperm that made it a clearer and better signal, or better burst of energy. Once those reactions have taken place in the fallopian tube, the whole y sperm swim straight, x in a zig zag doesn't apply anymore- they all have a straight shot. I think that there is chemistry within the fallopian tube and coming from the egg that gives X an advantage.
My newest theory is this based on a convo with my friend who just did IVF. Listen to this craziness: her husband had a vasectomy. They were together for YEARS and then he had it reversed so they could get pg. Wasn't happening for over a YEAR. They do IUI. No. several rounds. no. Then finally IVF and they get the call from the doctor about how the fertilization went and she is told from her doctor that the lab report was marked "very strange"- apparently they were doing the thing where you force the sperm into the egg. The technition could almost NOT get through the egg! The notes were that the eggs had built up an extra layer around it of like, protective film. They had seen this only once before and no explanation. (they got it through the egg by extra force, and she's pg now happy ending) BUT when she mentioned this to another doctor this doctor said OH YEAH- there is this very rare thing that happens where eggs GET USED to sperm a certain way. They had been having sex for years with him producing no sperm...but fluid. Her body recognized the fluid, but then the sperm once they were introduced to her (after vasectomy reversal) were seen as foreign and her body built up a protective reaction against something it sort of didn't recognize.
So my thought is this: You have to have low sperm count for a while before TTC so your body gets used to times being tough... your man isn't making sperm. It can tell there isnt much sperm, and the body adjusts appropriately. Then the egg indeed primes itself- with chemical messages that favor X sperms- that times are so hard that it needs to make girls. It would work the reverse with high sperm count/good times/different chemical attractants.
I just was thinking about this since she told me this story 2 days ago. It is so astonishing that our body can react to something like this. I have been wondering why low sperm=girls and combined with trivers willard logic t makes sense?
Thoughts?

atomic sagebrush
January 31st, 2011, 08:44 AM
That's very interesting. I've also read that preeclampsia may be a reaction to the husband's genes in the baby, and that's why it's more common with women having their first baby with a new partner. You can and do "get used to" your husband's sperm, it is believed.

Coccinelle33
February 1st, 2011, 11:27 PM
it's funny because with all my boys we had a lot of sex the days before, on, and after ovulation and with my daughter it was only a few times that month.

lindi
February 2nd, 2011, 12:00 AM
it's funny because with all my boys we had a lot of sex the days before, on, and after ovulation and with my daughter it was only a few times that month.

with your boys, that sex made you very alkaline... sways blue, but when you abstain part of it is there is less semen inside of you raising your pH, so your pH stays lower, sways girl.

chachamama
February 2nd, 2011, 09:28 AM
it's funny because with all my boys we had a lot of sex the days before, on, and after ovulation

Ditto - we had sex almost every day from 8 days before O, through O and at least 3 days after..

atomic sagebrush
February 2nd, 2011, 11:32 AM
with your boys, that sex made you very alkaline... sways blue, but when you abstain part of it is there is less semen inside of you raising your pH, so your pH stays lower, sways girl.

The semen may have other qualities that help lots of sperm to survive (just as CM does) so it may also raise the numbers of sperm on hand to fertilize the egg.

That having been said, Dr. Shettles believed that frequent BD through O would sway pink, because the slower-but-hardier X sperm would survive longer than the smaller-but-weaker Y sperm and all the X sperm that had survived from earlier BD would have a headstart to the egg.

pinksapphire
February 2nd, 2011, 05:59 PM
I mentioned to three different RE's about ICSI being done to fertilize the egg in IVF can produce more girls (I had read a study about that in a fertility mag) and all three said there's no merit to that. Funny how doctors still insist it's 50-50 with everyone.

atomic sagebrush
February 3rd, 2011, 10:51 AM
I mentioned to three different RE's about ICSI being done to fertilize the egg in IVF can produce more girls (I had read a study about that in a fertility mag) and all three said there's no merit to that. Funny how doctors still insist it's 50-50 with everyone.

Weirdly, two seconds before I opened this thread I was just reading about this exact thing. Two studies have been done, one of which found a gender ratio of 96:100 and the otehr 101:100, both of which are lower than the 106:100 at birth ratio and WAY WAY lower than the 140/160:100 at conception gender ratio (so many more boys than girls are miscarried, that the gender ratio at birth drops to 106:100.

I suspect it may be that X sperm are slightly larger and maybe more likely to be selected than Y sperm for ICSI. Probably nothing more mysterious than that. Then again, who knows??

I agree totally, doctors and medical personell are HIGHLY opposed to admitting, or even discussing, the possibility. It's almost like a taboo. But biologists KNOW it's real, even famous scientists like Richard Dawkins and Satoshi Kanazawa talk about it.

atomic sagebrush
February 3rd, 2011, 12:15 PM
pinksapphire and anyone else interested, here is a link to the actual study that found ICSI = more girls and standard IVF = more boys.
http://www.bjog.org/details/news/854713/Fertility_treatment_may_alter_the_gender_balance_. html

pinksapphire
February 3rd, 2011, 01:40 PM
Weirdly, two seconds before I opened this thread I was just reading about this exact thing. Two studies have been done, one of which found a gender ratio of 96:100 and the otehr 101:100, both of which are lower than the 106:100 at birth ratio and WAY WAY lower than the 140/160:100 at conception gender ratio (so many more boys than girls are miscarried, that the gender ratio at birth drops to 106:100.

I suspect it may be that X sperm are slightly larger and maybe more likely to be selected than Y sperm for ICSI. Probably nothing more mysterious than that. Then again, who knows??

I agree totally, doctors and medical personell are HIGHLY opposed to admitting, or even discussing, the possibility. It's almost like a taboo. But biologists KNOW it's real, even famous scientists like Richard Dawkins and Satoshi Kanazawa talk about it.

With our first cycle, ICSI is a standard thing. With my others, they refused to add it in because they said that it would lessen the quality of the embies and if we didn't need it (which we didn't), then why take that risk? The cycle we had the most girls? The first one!

atomic sagebrush
April 8th, 2011, 11:52 AM
Well, we do know that X and Y sperm are charged differently? - x are positive, y are negative, and the reaction needed for the sperm to get into the egg is dependent on things like calcium and progesterone. Maybe there is something in the uterus or fallopian tubes that happens that can't be replicated in the IVF setting which gives X sperm a bit more of an advantage?

This is a super old post but I just wanted to revive it to speak to this - I looked into this while I was researching the differences between X and Y sperm and in fact, they are NOT charged differently. http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?1562-What-are-the-REAL-differences-between-X-sperm-and-Y-sperm&highlight=real+differences+sperm