Advice please...19 day cycle caused by LE diet/exercise or something else?

[GlitterMouse]

Apologies if this has been asked before. Does LE diet and exercise reduce cycle length? My cycles do vary but I have just got AF on CD19?? That's the shortest ever.

I've been swaying pretty hard since January, have lost about 21lbs, exercising 5-6 times per week for at least an hour and following LE diet. My calorie intake is 1200-1500 most days.

Other info: I've been suffering with persistent conjunctivitis and my legs are injured at the moment due to all the running on a TM so I've had the last 3 days off exercise and then tonight AF arrived.

Just wondered if this is consistent with anyone else's experience?

[Beau82]

Yes it absolutely does! I'm not swaying hard and my ovulation date has jumped up to cd 14 from a normal cd 18/19. My normal cycle length is about 31 days, the last couple of months it's been 28 days.

[honeybee37]

If you're doing that much exercise I would say you need to up your kcal intake a lot. My cycles went mad with exercise and I had to force myself to eat 1800 kcal sometimes 2,000. I didn't gain any weight doing this but 1200 whilst exercising is def not enough.

[GlitterMouse]

Thanks so much for your replies ladies xx honeybee, I'm just so worried to up calories in case I gain weight. You were brave to force yourself to eat more. Can I ask how you increased and what types of foods you added in? Or was it just more of the same?

[Frilly Lady]

My cycle this month was only 22 days and that's short for me!

[GlitterMouse]

Thanks for chiming in Frilly. How long are your cycles usually?

[Frilly Lady]

28 days on average but when I started swaying last year they got shorter. Then even shorter when I started again this year, but never as short as this month. I am a geriatric though!

[honeybee37]

Glitter mouse I am still staying within the protein and fat limits but eating more white carbs etc. Having said that I wouldn't listen to me as my luteal phase is ridiculously short and I am not going to conceive easily since my AF turned up today at 7dpo (worse than last month...). It's a nightmare knowing what to do for the best, isn't it!!



Thanks so much for your replies ladies xx honeybee, I'm just so worried to up calories in case I gain weight. You were brave to force yourself to eat more. Can I ask how you increased and what types of foods you added in? Or was it just more of the same?

[GlitterMouse]

Oh honeybee I'm the same. My luteal phase this month was 8 days. It is a total nightmare knowing what to do I agree. Has your luteal phase always been short? Mine has and I did manage to easily conceive my two boys. Is short lutal phase linked to having boys? I always feel that that could be the reason I only have boys iykwim?? I really hope I'm way off the mark with that!

[maidentomother]

GM, how short was your shortest cycle prior to swaying? Earliest O day, pre swaying? Shortest LP, pre swaying?

Also, average cycle length, average O day, and average LP, all pre swaying?

[maidentomother]

You need 1500-1800 cals MINIMUM when doing daily cardio. I recommend not increasing fat at all, increasing protein up to 50g, and getting the rest/most of the extra cals from carbs. If you don't have PCOS, empty carbs like white bread, soda, fat free candy etc is ideal. Otherwise more complex carbs, white rice, and fruit are good sources of carbs only for PCOS ladies.

[honeybee37]

Oh honeybee I'm the same. My luteal phase this month was 8 days. It is a total nightmare knowing what to do I agree. Has your luteal phase always been short? Mine has and I did manage to easily conceive my two boys. Is short lutal phase linked to having boys? I always feel that that could be the reason I only have boys iykwim?? I really hope I'm way off the mark with that!
I don't know tbh. With my first, I had a chemical preg the month before and I convinced myself it was due to my luteal phase so the next month I used a progesterone cream until week 12 and had a totally normal pregnancy. Don't know if it was related! My second, the month before I had a 3 day LP (I was breastfeeding and it was the first month i ovulated post partum), had an oopsie and another normal pregnancy (no prog cream). I always assumed that post partum you're naturally v fertile.
Don't know this time :( I've read loads of stuff that says it can be s problem and I'm loads older than I was back then! How old are you?

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes, it can, but 19 days is beyond the pale and I think we may be pushing it too hard here. I do not think htat's true AF, it's breakthrough bleeding.

I STRONGLY recommend that except for like 3-5% of people, you guys are on 1500-1800 cals a day. Especially with exercise. Unless you are like 4 ft 11, only eat 1500 cals a day normally and have weight to spare, have moderate to severe PCOS with weight to spare, or have more than 30-50 lbs to lose, I suggest starting off MUCH higher.

My advice is to drop back to 4 days a week exercise, up cals to 1800 (I know a big jump here but you're STARVING) with one serv. full fat dairy a day, 4-6 eggs a week, and 1 serv. salmon or red meat per week, and drop fiber. Things may snap right back to normal.

[atomic sagebrush]

I don't know tbh. With my first, I had a chemical preg the month before and I convinced myself it was due to my luteal phase so the next month I used a progesterone cream until week 12 and had a totally normal pregnancy. Don't know if it was related! My second, the month before I had a 3 day LP (I was breastfeeding and it was the first month i ovulated post partum), had an oopsie and another normal pregnancy (no prog cream). I always assumed that post partum you're naturally v fertile.
Don't know this time :( I've read loads of stuff that says it can be s problem and I'm loads older than I was back then! How old are you?

Don't use OTC progesterone creams gals. They are not designed to help people get or stay pregnant and are meant for postmenopausal women and have a fraction of normal LP progesterone. Your body was able to sustain the pregnancy on its own and the prog cream did nothing (even prescription prog creams have been proven to do nothing to help people get or stay pregnant) It is also very normal to have very short LP that first month or three when you get your cycle back postpartum.

[atomic sagebrush]

Thanks so much for your replies ladies xx honeybee, I'm just so worried to up calories in case I gain weight. You were brave to force yourself to eat more. Can I ask how you increased and what types of foods you added in? Or was it just more of the same?

You are starving now. Your body is making you incapable of conceiving because it's so "scared" that you are in a famine and cannot risk a pregnancy. If you can't get pregnant you have NO chance of a baby.

[atomic sagebrush]

28 days on average but when I started swaying last year they got shorter. Then even shorter when I started again this year, but never as short as this month. I am a geriatric though!

21 days is still in normal range. It's also not unusual to get shorter cycles as we get older.

[atomic sagebrush]

Oh honeybee I'm the same. My luteal phase this month was 8 days. It is a total nightmare knowing what to do I agree. Has your luteal phase always been short? Mine has and I did manage to easily conceive my two boys. Is short lutal phase linked to having boys? I always feel that that could be the reason I only have boys iykwim?? I really hope I'm way off the mark with that!

NO shorter LP is NOT linked to having boys and I have many, many blue swayers who have short LP. My LP has never been short (with the exception of a handful of times postpartum or whatever) and I have 4 boys.

You guys need to up calories and I need to know what EXACTLY you mean when you say getting in the limits of protein and fat. People seem to not get the message about what the limits even ARE on these things (I suspect that a certain website is giving out bad info since everyone tells ME what the limits are, and it is my diet that I invented and I know exactly what they are haha) and I need to know what you are getting.

[atomic sagebrush]

You need 1500-1800 cals MINIMUM when doing daily cardio. I recommend not increasing fat at all, increasing protein up to 50g, and getting the rest/most of the extra cals from carbs. If you don't have PCOS, empty carbs like white bread, soda, fat free candy etc is ideal. Otherwise more complex carbs, white rice, and fruit are good sources of carbs only for PCOS ladies.

Some of these gals are eating like 5 g of fat though. I think that too low fat in the diet can absolutely stop ovulation so I want to be sure what she's eating.

You guys can up protein to 50-60 g range and STILL be in the alt. LE Diet range.

[atomic sagebrush]

The other thing to consider is that with PCO-tendencies, eating a lot of white carbs can make the syndrome kick into gear and could possibly delay O, make LP super short, but USUALLY (not always, but usually) this is in combination with either no weight loss or actually gaining. I'm not saying that is necessarily going on here just that I want to make sure, because just upping empty carbs, if this is a PCO situation, will be throwing gas on a fire

[honeybee37]

That is really interesting because I have been massively upping the white carbs and my ov has got later and LP shorter. I think I'm going to try gf this month and alternative carb sources.

[GlitterMouse]

Thank you so much for all your posts and suggestions. Atomic you have put so much into this thread, I am very grateful. You've all given me a lot to think about. I just got DH to read it all through for me too while I paced about!

I must admit, I had a mild panic when AF showed up on day 19, that's why I came straight here!

Atomic- I hear what you're saying about breakthrough bleeding. Just to clarify, in the UK, my understanding is that day 1 of your period is the first spot of blood you see? Am I right in thinking that in the US, you generally take day one as full flow or have I got that wrong? That said, my full flow came at day 22. I hope I haven't unintentionally misled anyone here?

I am aware of the limits of your diet Atomic and thought I had been doing it properly. I've been lurking around here for years and have huge respect for all your ideas. I feel bad for causing more work for you in having to reply to me!

I've only been mentally tracking my food intake as after initially writing it all down, I felt I understood the limits. Perhaps I should go back to doing that so I am absolutely sure? The thing I don't think I've taken into account is exercise. I've been going at it quite hard and have built my stamina up. I regularly burn 800-1000 kcals per session (or so says my TM), so I suppose only eating 1200 isn't enough right? I'll make a change to that right away. I've not exercised for a week due to recurring injury so I will lighten up on the exercise to help that and think more carefully about my food intake.

Thanks to all for the constant support x

[maidentomother]

Nothing can tell you how many cals you burned, just FYI.

CD1/AF begins on the first day of red flow, regardless of where you live. So yes, you had a 21 day cycle which is short but okay.

I would definitely start tracking cals, fat and protein properly, maybe do so once a week to check in.

Honeybee, that is very interesting about upping white carbs. I really wonder if there is a connection. Maybe I have the same or a similar problem? I've always eaten a ton of carbs, though mostly whole grain. Hmm. Maybe I eat too much fruit? That's where I get a lot of my cals from.

[atomic sagebrush]

That is really interesting because I have been massively upping the white carbs and my ov has got later and LP shorter. I think I'm going to try gf this month and alternative carb sources.

Also be sure you have totally dropped skim milk dairy in favor of full fat because that is a big trigger for PCO tendencies. http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/9052-swaying-under-special-circumstances-part-3-pcos.html

[atomic sagebrush]

It doesn't matter, if your cycle is short and your LP short, we need to act to fix the situation. I do agree CD 22 is less OMG than CD 19 tho. yes we consider full flow to be AF (unless you are one of those people who on 14 DPO gets a day of spotting always before AF starts, then in that case it's just the way one's AF arrives. It's really more the overall pattern we are looking at and you are definitely outside of your normal pattern.

Never feel bad in asking questions, I'd rather answer 1000 questions than have one person lose ovulation from dieting too strictly (for reals!!!)

Instead of calculating amount burned vs. eaten I'd just rather people let their weight loss be their guideline (because just exactly what Maiden says, the whole "cals burned" thing is completely unreliable) and if you don't have any weight to spare, you have to up cals to the point at which that weight loss stops instead of sitting around thinking "but I have only burned X number of cals so I should be ok!" But again I want most people I also want you guys to start off higher than you think you need to and you can always reduce over time. I don't think ANYONE exercising should be at 1200 cals unless they have 50 lbs to spare!!

[atomic sagebrush]

I do want to clarify one thing for the people reading this thread and apologies if I already said this I don't want to go back over the whole thing:

There are TWO things that can delay O and make a short LP. They are actually like polar opposites of each other and so the fix for one will make the other worse so you have to take care not to use the solution for one thing when you ahve the other going on.

1)PCO-tendencies or insulin resistance. For some of us, when we go onto standard LE Diet and eat a lot of empty white carbs, cut back protein and fat, it can make us suddenly activate tendencies we have towards underlying PCO or IR. This is actually a state of almost "too much" hormones and this is also where things like vitex and saw palmetto and peppermint tea can help because they mess with the way hormones are made and used in your body. BEcause your body isn't making the right amount of progesterone (using it instead to make testosterone and in some cases estrogen) your O can get really delayed (usually because the process in which your eggs are forming gets a little screwy but can sometimes be because you're making testosterone instead of estrogen) and your LP can get short.

2)Hypothalamic amenorrhea. This is when your hormones are LOW usually due to low body weight, dieting, exercise (and some other medical reasons) and it too can make your O delayed and LP short because you don't have enough raw materials to make anything and/or because your body is nervous and doesn't WANT to make sex hormones because it's scared that you are facing a famine and it's a bad time to get pregnant. It just kinda dials it back on getting pregnant, makes it less and less likely before it shuts down shop totally, by delaying ovulation and shortening up LP. It's a primitive form of birth control.

So if you have HIGH hormones going on the way this usually presents, is a lack of weight loss or even GAIN on standard LE Diet coupled with a delayed O and short LP FOR NO APPARENT REASON because no one has lost weight. This is usually where some well-meaning friend or herb peddler will chime in and prescribe Vitex and saw palmetto and pep tea and those things can actually HELP in this case because they may lower hormones enough to get pregnant but you may still end up having a boy anyway. These are the people you will read about on line telling how great vitex was and how well it worked for them and they are absolutely right, it did, but unless you are in the same boat as them that doesn't mean it will help YOU. (pregnitude also in this category)

If you have LOW hormones, then it is usually in people who have lost a lot of weight very fast (or even a little if they did not weigh much to start with), are eating 1200 or even fewer cals but even 1500-1800 can do it for some people, have TOTALLY cut out fat (there are a LOT of people doing that, jsut stopping fat intake all together), or are exercising a lot and not upping cals enough to compensate for weight loss. They may have also been on V, SP, pep tea, pregnitude at the same time, or they may not have been, but then they go on line or to the naturopath who then prescribe those things and then it only makes things WORSE because they're just lowering hormones MORE. No one understands what is going on because after all most of the people the naturopaths or whoever see, are PCOSers having the opposite problem, and things just get worse and worse using solutions for people with too many hormones, for those who have too few.

The solution for problem #1 is to try one of the alternate diets where you will end up getting more % of cals from protein and fat and the carbs will be healthier and less likely to mess with PCOS/IR. http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/9052-swaying-under-special-circumstances-part-3-pcos.html Some people may want to try herbs or pregnitude with this but I hesitate to use this as a blanket prescription because we are getting such good results just with dietary changes alone and the herbs have such a tendency to make things wackadoo - additionally I worry that if we artificially suppress the hormone levels with herbs, we may end up getting preggo with boys (and I woner if this is why the herbs have such disappointing results in our stats as well)

The solution for #2 is EAT MORE and in that case it may be actually BAD to go onto the alt. diets which are more helpful for losing weight. In this case you should defo. up fat and calories but you NEED to keep or even increase those empty carbs for those of us who cannot keep weight on without them. It has been shown on many of the Paleo websites that women need a fairly high level of carbs or their cycles go bonkers among a host of other problems (and remember, this is in people eating thousands of calories of fat and protein a day too!! even they could not keep ovulating without carbs!!!) For someone not ovulating becuase of HA, even if you're just starting down that path, going onto a high fiber diet with higher protein and fat and fewer carbs will make the weight drop off more. If your naturopath or best friend or Soulcysters website is telling you to take vitex, sp, pep tea, pregnitude that is not going to work for you and will be like throwing gas on a fire.

BOTH groups can benefit from the addition of full fat dairy every day, 4-6 eggs a week, 1 serv. salmon or red meat (or even both) and thus that is my Clomid/Femara also helps both groups.

So the thing you need to understand before suddenly deciding "ah-ha it's the empty carbs" is that, that may not be YOU. You may not be having this issue because you have PCO tendencies. If you've lived most of your live eating empty carbs (because a lot of us eat them all the time anyway and honestly a lot of us are proabably eating LESS than we were just by virtue of cal restriction) and you've lost weight perfectly fine on them, it is NOT likely that is the problem. It is much more likely that you're too low in hormones due to HA or starting down that path and your body is too scared to get pregnant.

The other thing you need to understand is that it takes time to fix these things (and why it's better not to let them happen to start with!!). So you can't give it a month on higher cal intake and then have another short LP and then decide "oh this means I must be PCOS guess I'll start pregnitude now" NO. In fact the PCOS fix usually happens darn fast once people go onto one of the alt diets, but the HA (low hormone) fix takes TIME and patience and can even be months to get things back to normal. It's actually much more common for people to get pregnant before their cycle normalizes!!

[atomic sagebrush]

Nothing can tell you how many cals you burned, just FYI.

CD1/AF begins on the first day of red flow, regardless of where you live. So yes, you had a 21 day cycle which is short but okay.

I would definitely start tracking cals, fat and protein properly, maybe do so once a week to check in.

Honeybee, that is very interesting about upping white carbs. I really wonder if there is a connection. Maybe I have the same or a similar problem? I've always eaten a ton of carbs, though mostly whole grain. Hmm. Maybe I eat too much fruit? That's where I get a lot of my cals from.

With your hormone levels being what they are I would bet 1 million dollars you do not have any PCO issues going on and I would NOT suggest dropping carbs in your case.

[atomic sagebrush]

I will now accept my "world's longest clarification" award. :bowdown: