O+12, hormones & Clearplan or Ovacue – Confused, please help!

[Coco]

Hello!

Really keen on O+12 method since with my second boy I thought I was doing cut off! I’m just struggling to get my head around how to achieve O+12 with a BFP at the moment…& of course girl! Here are my questions:

1. Understand O is supposed to be approx 32 hours after LH surge first detected. BUT If only testing each morning/or midday (with a monitor or OPK), how do you really know when LH surge began?.,.& therefore how do you know when its O + 12? (aside from CM & CP Obs and BBT – mine are all over place!)

2. I understand the LH rise begins early in the morning when you’re sleeping and takes 4-6 hours to appear in your urine. Does then testing first thing (FMs) or midday (OPKs) mean your managing to catch the LH surge fairly on? Why are the recommended times for testing with FMs and OPKs different when both measure the LH surge (is estrogen- also measured by FM -stronger first thing?).

3. The hormone lit I’ve been reading stresses that by the time thermal shift happens (& therefore O) it’s probably too late to conceive. Therefore feeling v unconfident that 12 hours later I’d have much chance of conceiving. Confused!

4. I read the thread on fertility monitors just before I was about to purchase the Ovacue. It was appealing because it can include the vaginal sensor which measures progesterone rise and therefore can tell you when O has happened. My cycles are highly irregular!! Can anyone else let me know their experience with the Ovacue? Or is the general consensus that the Clear Plan FM is best? Anyone heard of Baby Com? apart from $$!

Sorry for this essay!!( hope i'm putting in right spot!) ……. thanks in advance for any advice!!

[rainbowflower]

have you seen the pinned topics about how to do O+12?

not tried ovacue, but really like my CBFM

[zanacal]

Here are the O+12 threads:

http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?1291-O-12-Part-1-The-History-of-O-12
http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?1292-O-12-Part-2-How-to-do-O-12
http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?1293-O-12-Part-3-Advantages-and-Disadvantages-of-O-12

[Coco]

Thanks so much for your responses, I feel Like I have to make a decision right away on what method (O+12 or cut off) because may influence the type of fertility monitor I get - which i need to do now in time for next cycle.

I did all read the links - after I posted! So much detailed information i really appreciated it. Am very confused though as have come from IG where O+12 is all the go. Do you think given the irregularity of my cycles i might be better off with cut off? I haven't got months to get it right. Orignally i had thought that with help of ovacue v sensor (that tells u when progesterone goes up) i could pin point O...oh dear feeling so over whelmed right now

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes, Tamara and I used to go round and round over O+12 when I was on IG.

I personally believe that anyone with an irregular cycle is a lot better off doing a cutoff or even BD through O than with O+12 because it is so stressful to try and predict it, and it makes it super hard to do something like abstinence or frequent release.

[atomic sagebrush]

To answer your q's specifically:

1)You DON'T know when it's O+12 from OPK. There's no way to tell on the basis of OPK for exactly the reason you mention. In fact, I'm not totally convinced that you can tell on the basis of CM/CP because people have had mixed results - some people produce CM even after O and some people's cervixes stay open longer than other people. There is no biological law that states your CM WILL dry up and your CP will get firm exactly on schedule - people just made that up. It's different for everyone and can vary from month to month and depends on a lot of different things.

2)I'm not totally sure why the testing time is different, just that they work a little bit differently and you need to follow the directions for whatever method you're using and not mix and match them.

3)I completely agree and this is one of many reasons I don't like O+12. I think it's next to impossible to get pg that way and a lot of the people who believe they did an O+12, in fact Oed later than they believed they did, or had leftover semen in the vjj that fertilized the egg. Plus, I don't know your age but if you're over 35, O+12 makes it impossible to conceive.

4)I have heard a lot of good things about the Ovacue (and some bad ones as well) but I agree, it may be helpful to have the confirmation that O has happened. I never have used a FM myself so I am hoping that some others can chime in here and share their experiences.

[Coco]

Thankyou so much for taking the time to answer my (very lengthy!) questions Atomic - I really appreciate it. I realised after I posted that last one I had left out some critical info in relation to O+12 - sorry I think its the diet! (- I've been on the IG one since July). You have cleared most of it up for me but just a few further questions and to give you the full picture:

I am 39 (closer to 40!) but physically young, fit and active and seem to have been pretty fertile judging by time taken to get pregnant with my two perfect boys, whom I had at 35 and 38 with no issues. My partner is 42 and also quite fit. From your post and from what I’ve since found on your site it seems we should forget O+12. Would you still advise this even in view of above info?? I don't know enough about this stuff to make a judgement. Am nervous about egg quality & potential for birth defects/issues - i don't know of any evidence one way or the other.

Secondly (& regardless of whether we do O+12 or cut off) it seems it would NOT be advisable to abstain due to the potential birth defects risk – DH being older!

So: Do you think the best way for us is daily BD from beginning of AF to 3 days prior to O? (I am assuming there are no known risks with this for older men?) I do have a big concern with this too though - with DHs demanding job & age he may not be able to BD daily or even release daily -what would we do if that happened? Is there a fall back or another way? What do you think is the best option/strategy for us?

..finally!...Do you think there is anything else we should be leaving out or adding to our sway based on our ages?

Would really appreciate your advice.

Thanks

Coco :)

[swish]

Purple poet has an ova cue you could pm her?
I have cbfm and I'm really happy with it
Gl!!

[Coco]

Thanks Swish, I will. :)

[atomic sagebrush]

1)I totally understand about the IG diet, I think it totally causes brain fog!! :p

2)I still advise against O+12 for anyone over 35 and the older you are, the more strongly I advise against it. I am 41 myself and was TTC with several of the "Mature Mamas" group on IG for several years. NONE of them got pg doing O+12 and in fact they wasted many months of our limited fertility window playing around with it. Some went onto conceive easily with other timing and sadly some are still TTC or had to move on without ever getting pg. :(

You cannot tell on basis of appearance or fitness what your fertility is doing.

There is no evidence regarding O+12 and birth defects, but my thinking at age 38 when I last conceived was that fresh sperm plus fresh egg = healthy baby and I KNOW that is what you want. Most eggs in older women don't survive as long after ovulation so O+12 makes it incredibly difficult to conceive. If your egg only lives 12-16 hours, it is impossible. The more time that passes, the older you get, and the higher the risk of birth defects, so even just by virtue of making it take longer to conceive, O+12 DOES increase your risks of birth defects because every month that passes, you're a month older and your risks go up.

3)Yes, I don't like abstaining for older couples. I think it's too risky and it also depresses odds of pg too far because DH's sperm may not be able to recover from it.

4)You could do frequent release or the "compressed frequent release", either with a cutoff (I would NOT do a 3 day cutoff, that is too long for your ages. 2 days at most) or you could even BD through O. Timing has been studied repeatedly and it is not believed to sway in any reliable fashion. People are conceiving boys and girls in equal numbers throughout the cycle.

Compressed frequent release may be the best option if your DH can't do frequent. Here's a helpful thread about that. http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?5007-lowering-sperm-count-without-daily-BDing-or-abstaining

5)I would do whatever it takes to get pg quickly. Even if it means BD through O and skipping some things (such as very acidic jellies and antihistamines.) IF you cannot get pg, you have no chance at your desired gender and every month that passes, your odds of conception go down. Even if you got pg easily only a year or two earlier, your fertility is declining with every month that passes and if you sway for too long, that window of opportunity will slam shut.

Sorry to be a Debbie Downer but I've seen too many people waste too much time doing the IG sway and that's fine for people who are like 21 years old but it's a whole different ball game when you're older. I hate to see people walk away heartbroken. :(

[Coco]

Atomic, thank you thank you! I think I really needed to hear that to get the reality check I needed – I haven’t really being giving my age nearly enough consideration and you’re absolutely right a healthy baby is my top priority of course.I now think we will attempt frequent BD (release if necessary) for one week either through to O or stopping at 2 day cut off – maybe the former. If we can’t sustain daily B/D/release then will try to release once and dump and then DTD asap.

I have also changed to the LE diet – the theory makes more sense to me and less restrictive. I realised I have been eating way too much protein and calories as my focus wasn’t on lowering these – rather high mag and calc/low potatasium and sodium – was first inspired by the 2010 Netherlands study (Noorlander et al).

Will probably TTC late Oct at latest. Considering trying early next week but think I would like to give the LE diet a bit of time given this will now be the main thing I do –torn as know I need to get a move on. If I do wait til late Oct do you think a month of low protein/low cal will be enough to have an effect??

I was going to use repfresh at time of TCC but have definitely gone off idea. I am wondering about liquorice root for DH (from AF to O) to lower testosterone and raise estrogen as I know it was part of a number of successful sways for IG ladies BUT have no clue about risks or whether its been tested & declared safe around TCC. Wondering the same thing about benedryl for DH and myself (although more nervous about this one). I will post something with Dr H but would really appreciate your opinion.

Given you were older too when you conceived DD, I would be really interested to know
what you left in/ took out of your sway.. if this is ok. e.g jellies like repfresh, antihistamines, timing, any particular aspects of diet...

Lastly, (sorry my head’s exploding with questions!) I was thinking that even doing diet and nothing else, don’t the chances of conceiving a girl increase with age anyway?? I’m sure I read that somewhere – makes me feel a bit better about only doing diet.
. ..…sorry, maybe those last two should be new threads?

Thanks again for all your advice – so appreciated. So glad I joined! Looking forward to posting my final sway plan soon – it will be a relief.

Coco :)

[atomic sagebrush]

1) I'm glad that was helpful to you in some way. I never gave it much thought either until I saw people around me who were my age and even younger who didn't get pg at all. :( I'll never take my fertility for granted again, that's for sure!!

2)The Netherlands study, the foods they ate are actually quite in line with the LE Diet - lots of salads, veg, etc.

3)My thinking on diet is, anything helps. Esp. with a pink sway, because it can often take several months to conceive and so for many people, that first month is often a wash and people don't get pg anyway. So you start the diet and if you stick with the 6 weeks-3 months idea, THEN toss in several months of TTC without getting pg - that's a long time on the diet!! People have ended up losing more weight than they should and for those of us in our late 30's, again every month that passes is another month from our fertility window. Please feel free to go ahead and begin to TTC now, perhaps doing a cutoff this month if you like, maybe an antihistamine, jump and dump, and RepHresh/Acijel/Sylk, and just be ok with a BFN this first month (and if it's a BFP, yippee!!!) Then once you feel better about diet, you can cut some of those things out and with everything you drop, your odds of pg will go up.

3)Licorice root does def. have side effects. It can cause high blood pressure, erectile dysfunction, and weight gain. The good news is, by taking it 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, you reduce the risks of those things, but if your husband has already-existing hypertension he should not be taking LR at all. I do recommend it and a lot of people have had success with it.

4)Re:Benadryl...it is believed to be safe during pg and I have no qualms about recommending it to those TTC. But you gotta go with your gut on that one.

5)I never did conceive a DD - most of what I know now, I didn't know then, and other things I knew in my gut but I got scared by others into including. I included a lot of things that I would never ever do again, like taking Vitamin D, high doses of cal-mag, B6, DHA supps, high doses of folic acid, and a prenatal. (I included the prenatal and DHA to help me have a healthy baby, but I have since learned that most everything in a prenatal is in ample amounts via the LE diet or else your body stores and has enough to supply you for years. I had to take the high folic because my DS 3 has spina bifida and also because I wanted twins, which I got but lost one. Of course, everyone needs to take folic if they are planning on TTC, you may want to take 1200-1600 mcg to make up for being on a lower-cal diet)

Plus, I tried to time my weight loss so I could be actively losing when I conceived, and it backfired because I had an oops during the month I was regaining weight to lose! o.O You can read about my swaying journey here: http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?253-Trivers-Willard-hypothesis but be aware that my opinions on some of these things have changed a bit in the 3 years since I wrote this.

Also, jellies were really frowned on at IG during that time period (except for acijel which was recalled then and impossible to get) and I refused to douche, so I didn't include those in my sway unfortunately (I SO, SO wish I had used RepHresh - if I could still have DS 4 that is!!). My husband wouldn't sway so I couldn't include abstinence/FR or any supps for him.

My sway was basically vitex, cal, mag, Vit D, B6, 4000 mcg folic acid, cutting back on salt and potassium, jump and dump (altho I don't think I ended up doing that the night I conceived), breastfeeding, weight loss, a sane amount of aspartame, cutting out meat (I cheated a little because I was taking the month off) and I had planned on taking an antihistamine for my attempt, but because it was an oops, I didn't. Cranberry made me really sick and I didn't know about baby aspirin yet so I didn't take either of those. I didn't eat a ton of dairy but I did eat some.

6)My belief, and a lot of evidence indicates, that your odds of conceiving a girl go up with age, considerably (one article I read stated that over the age of 40, it's 2/3 girls for 1/3 boys conceived) and this makes sense to me because older women tend to have lower levels of testosterone and estrogen, and older guys tend to have lower sperm count. However, there HAVE been a couple of studies that found that at least in their sample, the gender ratio stays the same regardless of parental age. It may also be, in whole or in part, that older women simply lose more babies and since males are more likely to be lost, we still conceive equal numbers of boys and girls but lose more boys.

Hey, thanks so much for becoming a Dream Member! Much appreciated! Be sure to check out the LE Diet threads and the recipes from the TTC pink cookbook I'm working on, that are available in the Dream Members section.

[Coco]

Thanks again for all that info Atomic. I'm sorry you never got DD, that must have been very hard (sorry i've been reading so much reading i must have got confused). I think I'll stuggle if that happens not that I wouldn't adore another DS but just because this will be the last one as for you. But as I'm sure you mention elsewhere, I think alot of this is about giving it the best chance you can so you minimise the regrets and then move on regardless of gender.

I noticed you said that you really wish you had used used 'REpfresh'. Can I ask why you were very keen to include this? I had that high on my swaying list originally but ran it past my doctor the other day and she strongly advised against it.....but I wasn't clear on why. She just said gynos always advise stopping everything like that when trying to conceive and the your ph is your ph for a reason. I asked if it could harm egg or sperm and she eluded that it possibly could - I got the sense it was just an unknown..although it was enough to make me a little nervous. Would you know whether its been tested at all in relation to safety around conception? I'm assuming other experts say its ok?

..& just a quick one - what exactly is jump and dump?? have heard it a million times now but still not sure what is actually is.

Thanks

Coco

[happyheart]

Hello ~

I see you have some really great anwers regarding your questions about timing... I wanted to share with you about the ovacue. I had (before clomid) very irregular cycles and the ovacue never worked for me. I found it very stressful! I used the vaginal sensor for two months and never got any good results from it. I have been very unhappy with it. With that said, I also have the CBEM and I LOVE it. :)

HTH :) GL

[rainbowflower]

GPs will always advise against things like that because it does lower your chances of getting pregnant. The RepHresh website says it is not harmful to sperm and you can still TTC with it, so presumably they'd have done SOME tests on it to assess DNA damage or they would be looking at lawsuits if it is proved otherwise. The whole point (for us swayers) is that it makes it harder to conceive because that's the bit that sways pink. I'll be using it because it'll be less stressful and because my pH never seems to go below a 5.

Jump and dump is when you get up straight away after DTD and go for a pee so that some of the semen comes out again... which lowers total sperm count in there and that sways pink. I think we'll do J&D but maybe not straight away, it can take 5-15mins for most sperm capable of fertilising the egg to get into the cervix, so I'll perhaps leave it 5mins just to give more a chance and then dump after that.

Much as I want to lower sperm count and sway I also want to get pregnant fast and I think it's a fine line to balance!

[Coco]

Thanks for that Happyheart, you confirmed what I was fearing about the Ovacue. I ended up ordering the CBM as need to get pregnant fast and it seemed to be more reliable and take less time to master...don't want to be wasting months trying to get it right. That being said my CBFM hasn't arrived yet and I will be on cycle day 5 tomorrow. Do you think i could start using it slightly later in my cycle (presuming I get it in next day or so!) or will this make it too unreliable?..

[Coco]

GPs will always advise against things like that because it does lower your chances of getting pregnant. The RepHresh website says it is not harmful to sperm and you can still TTC with it, so presumably they'd have done SOME tests on it to assess DNA damage or they would be looking at lawsuits if it is proved otherwise. The whole point (for us swayers) is that it makes it harder to conceive because that's the bit that sways pink. I'll be using it because it'll be less stressful and because my pH never seems to go below a 5.

Jump and dump is when you get up straight away after DTD and go for a pee so that some of the semen comes out again... which lowers total sperm count in there and that sways pink. I think we'll do J&D but maybe not straight away, it can take 5-15mins for most sperm capable of fertilising the egg to get into the cervix, so I'll perhaps leave it 5mins just to give more a chance and then dump after that.

Much as I want to lower sperm count and sway I also want to get pregnant fast and I think it's a fine line to balance!

thanks very much rainbowflower, that's very helpful. just had a look at the RePfresh site you were talking about and it is reassuring about being safe during conception - but the fact it doesn't mention that RePfresh will make it harder to conceive makes me a little dubious. Love to see a trial that looked at risks at conception but I imagine this would be extremely difficult to measure given the numerous variables! Wouldn't normally be this paranoid except am a little fearful of problems/birth defects anyway given my age (nearly 40!) and would hate to make situation any worse.

excuse my ignorance about jump and dump (and probably missing something obvious here) but i don't understand how getting rid of some semen via the toilet would favour either sex - b/c its not like more y sperm are going to go down the toilet than x sperm...... is it?......

...sorry i'm a bit confused about that one!

[skrimpy]

I have been re-reading a lot of the studies on hormones and though I think there may be a hormonal basis for O+12 it seems like there's a greater chance of pregnancy if you go with the initial FSH and LH surges - these are the gonadatropins and there is definitely evidence that female conceptions increase when they are surging. Estrogen is also plummeting while they are surging (and estrogen sways for boys).

You can take what I'm saying with a grain of salt, but it looks like when your OPK first shows positive is a great time to TTC for a girl. Also, if you're using the CBFM you should try when you first start getting High readings b/c that means it detects estrogen dropping and LH rising. On Peak days LH is dropping very quickly (and FSH has already dropped) and estrogen will again be more dominant before taking a backseat to progesterone (which sways for girls, which is why I think that O+12 may work for ppl who manage to conceive.

But studies show that more girls are conceived during the LH and FSH surges, and boys just at ovulation. If you are using OPK's and/or a monitor I would go when the surge first starts. In fact, I would probably use a monitor in the morning and an OPK in the afternoon to see if you get a positive.

Then BD when you get that - DON'T wait for O to occur hours later like a blue swayer would.

I hope this all makes sense...

and again, this is all my own theories based on reading the studies and looking closely at the hormones... but I believe it's hormones that are why timing may have an impact (I don't think sperm have anything to do with it)

[zanacal]

I read those studies too skrimpy!

Coco - there's no way (that we know of) to alter the balance of xx to xy sperm and it will always be around 50/50, however lower sperm count overall sways girl and higher sperm count overall sways boy. That's why we do so many things (frequent release/abstain, antihistimines, acid gels) to lower sperm count if we want a girl. JAD is just another factor you can add in :D

[skrimpy]

Just wanting to clarify that I don't think that sperm speed/size has anything to do with it... I think it's the hormones influencing the sperm/egg/reproductive organs

[Coco]

Gosh thanks so much skrimpy and zanacal for all that information. I totally agree about it being about the hormones. One query skrimpy about the estrogen. You were saying you thought it may be best to TTC between when the surge first starts being high on CBFM until a pos OPK is detected - and that estrogen pluments at this time. My question is, if you're stopping as soon as +opk is detected aren't you actually stopping when estrogen levels are highest? - I thought they were highest at this time and then plummeted after O? Or, by stopping at first + OPK are you actually stopping before estrogen levels reach their peak at O...?

Also I might be asking the obvious but it's just occurred to me I don't actually understand why lower sperm count alone favours girls if there are equal numbers of xx and xy...? I think i understand how the gels, antihistamines and abstaining work because they're creating environments where xys potentially can't survive as well (which would lower overall count) but just lower sperm count alone I don't really understand..

sorry for my endless questions!

[carmella_marie]

My DS was a shettles opposite so I have been doing a few practice cycles and hope to give O+12 a try next month! I do not use monitors, just OPK's. I start testing on CD 10 and test at 2pm and 10 pm (you can't use FMU with OPK's, you always have LH in FMU) This allows me to better pin-point when the LH surge occured, plus with OPK's and I can see the line slowly getting darker as my body prepares to O, so this helps me know if I should add in other test at 10 am just to make sure I don't miss the start of the surge. I typically O about 36 hours after my first +OPK. The reason I use OPK's is that they just test for LH and you can see it! FM track changes in hormones, so once there is a surge, you get a negative, but you might get a negative the next day, even though you haven't O'ed yet or are Oing that day, because the surge has already happened, and it hasn't increased from the day before, does that make sense?

My BBT were all over the place too until I started going to sleep around the same time and setting an alarm for the same time every morning and being really diligent about it. The thermal shift is not 12 hours later. The egg lives for 24 hours after it is released, so O+12 is plenty of time to catch a healthy egg. The temp rises in response to increased progesterone, after the egg is released, but it depends on the time you O. Let's say you temp at 6 am and then O at 8 am, well since you're only temping once a day, you wouldn't see the shift until the next day, around O+22 and you would miss the egg, but let;s say you O'ed middle of the night and took your temp at 6 am, you might see a rise. So you cannot time O+12 on temping. Temping only confirms O has happened in the last 24 hours or so, and if you're like me, you have a slow BBT rise, so it takes a full 3 days to make sure I really O'ed.

I hope something I have said makes sense....

I took vitex to regulate my cycles and it worked like a charm!

[zanacal]

Coco - it's not known why lower sperm count sways girl. One theory is that xy sperm need high numbers of sperm trying to penetrate the egg at the same time to make it through (it takes many sperm trying to penetrate the egg to enable one to get through), whereas the xx sperm can do the same job without so much 'back up'. Some believe those other aspects you mention kill only the xy sperm but I believe they just lower sperm count (of both types) overall.

[rainbowflower]

zana I do have my theory - I read a study (forget exactly which) that said that where the sperm counts are lower it is easier for sperm to swim through the fluids. I.e. they bump into each other less. Generally we know that XY swim straighter than XX, who swim slightly circular. If there are less sperm "in the way", perhaps XX have a better chance of swimming through the fluids along with the XYs whereas otherwise they are more hindered than the XYs are.

[zanacal]

Thanks rainbow, that's interesting! Be great if you could re-find that study!

[rainbowflower]

I'll see what I can do... might not be easy to find as I don't think that was the main point of the study, more an observation within it

[Coco]

Carmella_Marie, thanks so much for all your advice, that was really helpful. The only bit I'm not getting is why once there is a surge you get a neg - i thought that that was when the FM indicated peak fertility status??

[Coco]

Zanacal and Rainbowflower, thanks very much for those theories! Just helps me rationalise what I'm doing more... which helps me stick to it!! Much appreciated.

[atomic sagebrush]

Thanks again for all that info Atomic. I'm sorry you never got DD, that must have been very hard (sorry i've been reading so much reading i must have got confused). I think I'll stuggle if that happens not that I wouldn't adore another DS but just because this will be the last one as for you. But as I'm sure you mention elsewhere, I think alot of this is about giving it the best chance you can so you minimise the regrets and then move on regardless of gender.

I noticed you said that you really wish you had used used 'REpfresh'. Can I ask why you were very keen to include this? I had that high on my swaying list originally but ran it past my doctor the other day and she strongly advised against it.....but I wasn't clear on why. She just said gynos always advise stopping everything like that when trying to conceive and the your ph is your ph for a reason. I asked if it could harm egg or sperm and she eluded that it possibly could - I got the sense it was just an unknown..although it was enough to make me a little nervous. Would you know whether its been tested at all in relation to safety around conception? I'm assuming other experts say its ok?

..& just a quick one - what exactly is jump and dump?? have heard it a million times now but still not sure what is actually is.

Thanks

Coco

It was hard at the time but believe it or not I would welcome a 5th boy now. At 41 I doubt it will happen but I would still love just one more baby and very much regret the time I spent in sorrow over DS 3 and 4.

Unfortunately I had not yet researched RepHresh at the time of my sway (and it was frowned upon at IG) but since I've been on this site, I have learned that Rephresh is specially designed to keep pH low and also lower the pH of anything it comes into contact with, for up to three days after using it.

Doctors do not like swaying, period, and I believe they automatically envision a lot of stuff based on old wives tales and people doing dangerous things out of desperation or being exploited by people trying to make money. She is no doubt imagining all kinds of very harmful things like frequent, forceful douches containing Lysol and other awful things and so on (which, ironically, used to be prescribed by doctors and are extremely dangerous).

The reason why doctors advise against using RepHresh or various jellies is because they kill sperm (all lubes do except for PreSeed, even KY, vaseline, and saliva kill sperm!!!) and that's not what doctors recommend when TTC. RepHresh cannot harm the egg at all, it will not even come near to the egg before or after conception, and while the low pH can kill sperm, it does not alter the sperm's DNA or cause birth defects. Sperm DNA are damaged during the process of making them, when they exchange chromosomes and divide, not later in the process. Later on, they can be killed but the DNA can't be altered, it's already been formed. It's the same way that a baby can be acquire a birth defect if exposed to chemicals during the first trimester, when it's still forming, and not later in the pregnancy because it's already formed at that point. RepHresh has been tested and approved by the FDA and also the equivalent department in the UK and the UK RepHresh site says point blank that it is safe to use when TTC.

Jump and dump just means you hop up right after DTD and get rid of as much semen as you can to reduce sperm numbers. Here's a link that explains it better. http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?1137-Jump-and-Dump-and-the-Semen-Emitting-Technique

[atomic sagebrush]

thanks very much rainbowflower, that's very helpful. just had a look at the RePfresh site you were talking about and it is reassuring about being safe during conception - but the fact it doesn't mention that RePfresh will make it harder to conceive makes me a little dubious. Love to see a trial that looked at risks at conception but I imagine this would be extremely difficult to measure given the numerous variables! Wouldn't normally be this paranoid except am a little fearful of problems/birth defects anyway given my age (nearly 40!) and would hate to make situation any worse.

excuse my ignorance about jump and dump (and probably missing something obvious here) but i don't understand how getting rid of some semen via the toilet would favour either sex - b/c its not like more y sperm are going to go down the toilet than x sperm...... is it?......

...sorry i'm a bit confused about that one!

You WANT it to be a little harder to conceive. That seems to be how it works - everything that boosts fertility, seems to sway blue, and everythign that reduces it a bit without making it impossible to conceive, seems to sway pink.

You are totally right that it is not that Y sperm fall out of you and go into the toilet (altho that's what those "old wives" once believed haha), it's that for some reason that we do not totally understand, lower numbers of sperm in your reproductive tract, either fewer deposited by DH or fewer surviving to make it to the egg or both, seem to sway pink. I have my own theory about why this is but no evidence to back it up. For now, we're just operating under the idea that what works, works, and trying to emulate conditions where DH is depositing less sperm and/or conditions are a little less welcoming for those sperm upon arrival.

[atomic sagebrush]

Gosh thanks so much skrimpy and zanacal for all that information. I totally agree about it being about the hormones. One query skrimpy about the estrogen. You were saying you thought it may be best to TTC between when the surge first starts being high on CBFM until a pos OPK is detected - and that estrogen pluments at this time. My question is, if you're stopping as soon as +opk is detected aren't you actually stopping when estrogen levels are highest? - I thought they were highest at this time and then plummeted after O? Or, by stopping at first + OPK are you actually stopping before estrogen levels reach their peak at O...?

Also I might be asking the obvious but it's just occurred to me I don't actually understand why lower sperm count alone favours girls if there are equal numbers of xx and xy...? I think i understand how the gels, antihistamines and abstaining work because they're creating environments where xys potentially can't survive as well (which would lower overall count) but just lower sperm count alone I don't really understand..

sorry for my endless questions!

Well my personal theory is that because X are very slightly larger and Y are very slightly smaller, that Y may need to "team up" to make it through the eggshell while X can do it with less assistance (because it takes several sperm to penetrate the egg - one sperm alone cannot do it.) And possibly, higher numbers of sperm may team up somehow to survive better in the reproductive tract and ensure that there are more sperm to fertilize the egg (which according to the first part of my theory, would then sway blue.)It's just a theory with nothing backing it up, but it does explain all the things that are said to sway without having to resort to things that are not proven to exist (like ions, etc.)

Anyway, it doesn't matter WHY it works, but it does seem to, because men who have low sperm count still have 50-50 X and Y sperm but still go onto have more daughters.

[atomic sagebrush]

zana I do have my theory - I read a study (forget exactly which) that said that where the sperm counts are lower it is easier for sperm to swim through the fluids. I.e. they bump into each other less. Generally we know that XY swim straighter than XX, who swim slightly circular. If there are less sperm "in the way", perhaps XX have a better chance of swimming through the fluids along with the XYs whereas otherwise they are more hindered than the XYs are.

It's in the science of swaying section, freya posted it on my "what are the real differences between X and Y" thread! Interesting take on that, rainbow!!

[atomic sagebrush]

My DS was a shettles opposite so I have been doing a few practice cycles and hope to give O+12 a try next month! I do not use monitors, just OPK's. I start testing on CD 10 and test at 2pm and 10 pm (you can't use FMU with OPK's, you always have LH in FMU) This allows me to better pin-point when the LH surge occured, plus with OPK's and I can see the line slowly getting darker as my body prepares to O, so this helps me know if I should add in other test at 10 am just to make sure I don't miss the start of the surge. I typically O about 36 hours after my first +OPK. The reason I use OPK's is that they just test for LH and you can see it! FM track changes in hormones, so once there is a surge, you get a negative, but you might get a negative the next day, even though you haven't O'ed yet or are Oing that day, because the surge has already happened, and it hasn't increased from the day before, does that make sense?

My BBT were all over the place too until I started going to sleep around the same time and setting an alarm for the same time every morning and being really diligent about it. The thermal shift is not 12 hours later. The egg lives for 24 hours after it is released, so O+12 is plenty of time to catch a healthy egg. The temp rises in response to increased progesterone, after the egg is released, but it depends on the time you O. Let's say you temp at 6 am and then O at 8 am, well since you're only temping once a day, you wouldn't see the shift until the next day, around O+22 and you would miss the egg, but let;s say you O'ed middle of the night and took your temp at 6 am, you might see a rise. So you cannot time O+12 on temping. Temping only confirms O has happened in the last 24 hours or so, and if you're like me, you have a slow BBT rise, so it takes a full 3 days to make sure I really O'ed.

I hope something I have said makes sense....

I took vitex to regulate my cycles and it worked like a charm!

This is a great post and I don't mean to get nitpicky but I do need to point out that the egg is in no way guaranteed to live 24 hours. In fact, the 24 hour time frame is an absolute MAXIMUM that they can live, and unless fertilized, most eggs will die much sooner than that. Especially in older women, your egg is almost certainly dead or disintegrating 16 hours after O (which is the earliest it can be fertilized with O+12) and I strongly recommend against doing O+12 if you are over 35.

This study even states that the median length of egg survival is 12 hours!!! Meaning there are eggs out there that don't even make it to 12 hours, let alone 16-24. http://www.jstor.org/pss/2530453

The 24 hours number is often cited but it's because it's just a handy number to use to track fertility for people who are using Natural Family Planning as birth control. It's just a number picked out of a hat and in no way applicable to every person or even most.

[Coco]

It was hard at the time but believe it or not I would welcome a 5th boy now. At 41 I doubt it will happen but I would still love just one more baby and very much regret the time I spent in sorrow over DS 3 and 4.

Unfortunately I had not yet researched RepHresh at the time of my sway (and it was frowned upon at IG) but since I've been on this site, I have learned that Rephresh is specially designed to keep pH low and also lower the pH of anything it comes into contact with, for up to three days after using it.

Doctors do not like swaying, period, and I believe they automatically envision a lot of stuff based on old wives tales and people doing dangerous things out of desperation or being exploited by people trying to make money. She is no doubt imagining all kinds of very harmful things like frequent, forceful douches containing Lysol and other awful things and so on (which, ironically, used to be prescribed by doctors and are extremely dangerous).

The reason why doctors advise against using RepHresh or various jellies is because they kill sperm (all lubes do except for PreSeed, even KY, vaseline, and saliva kill sperm!!!) and that's not what doctors recommend when TTC. RepHresh cannot harm the egg at all, it will not even come near to the egg before or after conception, and while the low pH can kill sperm, it does not alter the sperm's DNA or cause birth defects. Sperm DNA are damaged during the process of making them, when they exchange chromosomes and divide, not later in the process. Later on, they can be killed but the DNA can't be altered, it's already been formed. It's the same way that a baby can be acquire a birth defect if exposed to chemicals during the first trimester, when it's still forming, and not later in the pregnancy because it's already formed at that point. RepHresh has been tested and approved by the FDA and also the equivalent department in the UK and the UK RepHresh site says point blank that it is safe to use when TTC.

Jump and dump just means you hop up right after DTD and get rid of as much semen as you can to reduce sperm numbers. Here's a link that explains it better. http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?1137-Jump-and-Dump-and-the-Semen-Emitting-Technique

Wow Atomic, its great that you feel you could welcome 5th boy. Makes me feel like I could get over it and do the same if I am lucky enough to even get pregnant in the first place. Thanks for that fantastic detailed information on Rephresh - helping alot. I do have one more question on this which may sound a bit silly ....excuse my ignorance on all things sperm. I know that you say sperm DNA cannot be damaged once developed, BUT if they can be killed once developed then can't they be damaged even if the DNA doesn't change? And if so, couldn't this be an issue if a damaged sperm were to penetrate the egg?? Sorry i sound completely paranoid...guess i am about this one!

[Coco]

Well my personal theory is that because X are very slightly larger and Y are very slightly smaller, that Y may need to "team up" to make it through the eggshell while X can do it with less assistance (because it takes several sperm to penetrate the egg - one sperm alone cannot do it.) And possibly, higher numbers of sperm may team up somehow to survive better in the reproductive tract and ensure that there are more sperm to fertilize the egg (which according to the first part of my theory, would then sway blue.)It's just a theory with nothing backing it up, but it does explain all the things that are said to sway without having to resort to things that are not proven to exist (like ions, etc.)

Anyway, it doesn't matter WHY it works, but it does seem to, because men who have low sperm count still have 50-50 X and Y sperm but still go onto have more daughters.

Thanks again Atomic, I like your theory. Will definately be aiming for lower sperm.....if it seems to work then it's worth a try. Thanks for the J&D information too. :)

[atomic sagebrush]

Wow Atomic, its great that you feel you could welcome 5th boy. Makes me feel like I could get over it and do the same if I am lucky enough to even get pregnant in the first place. Thanks for that fantastic detailed information on Rephresh - helping alot. I do have one more question on this which may sound a bit silly ....excuse my ignorance on all things sperm. I know that you say sperm DNA cannot be damaged once developed, BUT if they can be killed once developed then can't they be damaged even if the DNA doesn't change? And if so, couldn't this be an issue if a damaged sperm were to penetrate the egg?? Sorry i sound completely paranoid...guess i am about this one!

They are "damaged" in a way that renders them incapable of making it to/fertilizing the egg. Like, they explode, disintegrate, their tail falls off, they capacitate too soon or not at all, etc. They just lay there and die, they can't swim any more, let alone make it past all the healthy sperm . For male factor birth defects to occur, the sperm must be undamaged and still functional on the outside and then deliver the damaged DNA to the egg. The outer layer of the egg is like a guardian and since it is difficult for even healthy sperm to penetrate it, it is somewhat selective of what sperm makes it through, so it doesn't allow sperm that aren't "right" to fertilize it.

Hundreds of women have been doing swaying that is a heck of a lot more nutty and intrusive (like putting sperm through a centrifuge and dousing them with straight lime juice, etc) than a little RepHresh and there have been three birth defects in baby girls that I am aware of, one was genetic and linked to the mother, one was in a couple that was in their 40's and they weren't swaying when they got pg and that was a male factor DNA-based problem, and one was just one of those sad things that happens sometimes and that couple went on to conceive a perfectly healthy baby girl with swaying.

[atomic sagebrush]

Oh, and never apologize for questions because for every person who asks, there are ten others who wonder!!

[rainbowflower]

It's in the science of swaying section, freya posted it on my "what are the real differences between X and Y" thread! Interesting take on that, rainbow!!

aha! thanks! I knew I wasn't going mad!