A change of plan-can anyone help please?

[GlitterMouse]

Hi ladies,

I hope someone will be able to help? I've been doing LE and exercise since January and have had 5 attempts, each with one attempt at positive opk but to no avail. I was pretty hardcore on the plan for a long time. I have relaxed somewhat and haven't exercised for about 5-6 weeks. My diet has not been as strict for that time period either.

My last three cycles have been completely wacky. One extremely long, the only time this has ever happened in 26 years of periods! The following cycle after this I had multiple days of flashing smileys (7) before a static and my last cycle, 7 flashing smileys and no static at all.

Can anyone suggest what might be going on here?

With all of this is mind, I've decided to start the every four days method but not sure how it works? Can anyone explain it to me?

I'd really appreciate any responses. At 38, I feel time is rushing by and am so sad at the thought of no more babies :pray:

[XXforhubby]

Good to hear from you Glittermouse! I've been thinking about you!

What you are describing with your cycles is common when swaying. That being said, can you tell me more about how many calories, foods, and fat and protein you've been getting? Are you exercising? Are you taking any supplements? Sorry for the questions!

Also, if you're doing J and D (jump and dump), hot showers, shallow release, it may be time to stop those or at least wait 5-10min before J and D.

Make sure to be getting 1500-1800 cals, 40-50g protein, and 30-60g fat. If you're exercising, just do 60min of cardio and no more than that.

E4D is when you BD unprotected when AF ends until you go past the latest CD you've ever ovulated on or until CD22. You can skip the opks, since this method ensures at least one good attempt in your fertile window.



[emoji170]DS1[emoji1379], DS2[emoji602], DS3[emoji577][emoji170]
[emoji166]One last pink sway in 2016[emoji166]
My Ovulation Chart (https://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/579920)

[Complex Emotions]

Hello GlitterMouse - Like you, I was swaying for a long time and it takes a lot out of me to feel the months passing by.

I gave up on the OPKs so now I'm starting to try temping at night. (The beep of the thermometer wakes my son up in the morning.)

As for every four days, it made a lot of sense to me once I saw Atomic explained it like: ONE, two, three, four.

So if "Monday" is "one" then it's: MONDAY (sex), tuesday, wednesday, thursday, FRIDAY (sex), saturday, sunday, monday, TUESDAY (sex), wednesday... and so on from the end of your period to the start of your period.

[GlitterMouse]

Thank you so much for taking time out to reply to me girls x

xxforhubby-I've been away for a while just getting on with it all. Thanks for thinking of me hun. Hope all ok with you?
So here goes... From about January-July, my calories, protein, fat etc have all been on the low side (probably not reaching those limits each day). Two meals a day, no snacking, loads of black coffee, empty calories and wine at night. I was without fail doing fibre tablets at each meal.

I was exercising furiously- 5,6,7 days per week, every week from January-August. Everytime cardio and for at least an hour. My weight went down to about the same as before I conceived my first son. I think my bmi was in the healthy but low range at that time.
I have relaxed on diet a lot and have gained some weight and have not been exercising much due to ill health.

Some of our earlier attempts involved j and d, shallow release etc but we dropped those for the last couple of attempts.

Complex emotions, my LP is also very short, although it always has been and I managed to conceive both sons with it. I'm not sure if this is to do with bmi for me as I was a podger :bigsmile: when I conceived ds2!??

Its all such a mystery? The lack of static face on last cycles opk is making me worry that I've stopped ovulating? Do you think this is the case? From reading other posts, I picked up some of Atomic's advice about eating some eggs, fish and a bit of whole milk. I now feel so confused. I'm dabbling in LE as well as dipping a toe in blue swaying to get my fertility back.

I did do pregnancy tests during the very long cycle but got very obvious BFN's each time. I have also had two very heavy periods since beginning our attempts (sorry TMI).

Thanks so much for the E4D information. I'm definitely going down that route now. I thought I was doing a simple sway with not too many dimensions but I seem to have messed it up. Not sure which way to go now??

[GlitterMouse]

Thanks for your reply Complex Emotions, we are in this together!!

Is your short LP linked to swaying or did you have this issue with your first child?

Is there a reason why you are stopping coffee and alcohol? Are these things linked to short LP? For about 5-6 months, I also drank a ton of diet coke?? Did you use this and fibre too?

Has Atomic offered you any advice? I notice you have another thread going, I must read through that.

Just a question about E4D, I'm guessing that each bd is unprotected? Is DH supposed to release in between or not?

[atomic sagebrush]

Girls, there is a lot of ground to cover here, can you give me a bump???

[Complex Emotions]

Thanks for your reply Complex Emotions, we are in this together!!

Is your short LP linked to swaying or did you have this issue with your first child?

Is there a reason why you are stopping coffee and alcohol? Are these things linked to short LP? For about 5-6 months, I also drank a ton of diet coke?? Did you use this and fibre too?

Has Atomic offered you any advice? I notice you have another thread going, I must read through that.

Just a question about E4D, I'm guessing that each bd is unprotected? Is DH supposed to release in between or not?

Thanks GlitterMouse!

I didn't even know what an LP was until a few months ago! I'd only tried to conceive the one time prior to this, and we got pregnant right away the very first month without OPKs or tracking or temping or anything.

I read online that coffee, alcohol, and artificial sugars are all associated with a short LP, but I honestly don't know how accurate that is. I'm kind of grasping at straws with the LP situation and just waiting to hear Atomic's perspective. As for fibre, I get more than enough from diet so I had a sense that it wouldn't be beneficial in my case.

As for E4D, yes, it should be unprotected. I've read Atomic say that it's best to just let your husband "do what he does" in between because trying to control this just leads to marital frustration. Our stats show there's no sway-related benefit to extra releases or abstaining anyway.

[GlitterMouse]

Girls, there is a lot of ground to cover here, can you give me a bump???

Thanks so much Atomic. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts when you get a moment! :happy:

[GlitterMouse]

Thanks GlitterMouse!

I didn't even know what an LP was until a few months ago! I'd only tried to conceive the one time prior to this, and we got pregnant right away the very first month without OPKs or tracking or temping or anything.

I read online that coffee, alcohol, and artificial sugars are all associated with a short LP, but I honestly don't know how accurate that is. I'm kind of grasping at straws with the LP situation and just waiting to hear Atomic's perspective. As for fibre, I get more than enough from diet so I had a sense that it wouldn't be beneficial in my case.

As for E4D, yes, it should be unprotected. I've read Atomic say that it's best to just let your husband "do what he does" in between because trying to control this just leads to marital frustration. Our stats show there's no sway-related benefit to extra releases or abstaining anyway.

Wow, I've had a ton on artificial sugar through sweeteners in my coffee and from drinking DC. Wonder if there is something in that??

How many attempts have you had now? How long have you been on LE? I started in January after about 3 and a half years of lurking behind the scenes!

[GlitterMouse]

Bump for Atomic

[Complex Emotions]

Wow, I've had a ton on artificial sugar through sweeteners in my coffee and from drinking DC. Wonder if there is something in that??

How many attempts have you had now? How long have you been on LE? I started in January after about 3 and a half years of lurking behind the scenes!

I'm so sorry, GlitterMouse. I think I was wrong about there being a connection between artificial sweeteners and a short LP. I don't see any sites or articles that suggest a connection now. I'm sorry for confusing you (and anyone else who read this!)

[Complex Emotions]

...Complex emotions, my LP is also very short, although it always has been and I managed to conceive both sons with it...

How short was your LP when you conceived your boys?

[GlitterMouse]

Don't worry about the sweetener linked to LP thing hun. We're all trying to help each other and I appreciate any suggestions. I actually looked it up after you'd mentioned it and thought I did see some websites referring to a possible link! Who knows?

My LP when I conceived DS1 varied from 8-11 days. I tracked it all and made some temp charts and went armed with those to a consultant for some help. He wasn't actually prepared to look at them and said that charting, opks etc all caused stress and that I shouldn't get too hung up on it etc. He basically dismissed my short LP. In fact I'm not sure he'd even heard of it??? He is a renowned guy in his field and the whole thing confused me TBH.

Maybe he was just saying that to chill me out? I have heard of consultants using these tactics to help people trying to conceive. To my surprise I got a bfp 5 days later. Maybe his calming, chilled out response helped me?

DS2 was a planned surprise! We just thought 'if it happens, it happens'. And it happened!

[Complex Emotions]

My LP when I conceived DS1 varied from 8-11 days. I tracked it all and made some temp charts and went armed with those to a consultant for some help. He wasn't actually prepared to look at them and said that charting, opks etc all caused stress and that I shouldn't get too hung up on it etc. He basically dismissed my short LP. In fact I'm not sure he'd even heard of it??? He is a renowned guy in his field and the whole thing confused me TBH.

Maybe he was just saying that to chill me out? I have heard of consultants using these tactics to help people trying to conceive. To my surprise I got a bfp 5 days later. Maybe his calming, chilled out response helped me?

Hm, that's interesting. I keep reading that stress causes short LPs, and I guess that could be my issue...

People on these boards keep saying that if you can get a ten day LP than you can get pregnant though and yours was sometimes 11 days, so maybe that consultant was right - your LP was already long enough and you didn't need to worry about it.

[GlitterMouse]

Bump for Atomic

[atomic sagebrush]

Thanks so much for your patience.

My concern is that without the exercise, the diet can sometimes cause flareups of PCO-tendencies (even if you don't have PCOS) and sometimes this causes the many days of near-pos OPK like that. I don't KNOW that's what is happening, just that's the first thing that jumps out at me esp given your history of short LP. So I would have you switch over to PCO-type diet http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/9052-swaying-under-special-circumstances-part-3-pcos.html and resume exercise even if it is just moderate.

I do think that it is possible you also had cut back too far but since you did have a short LP before this and the many days of flashing smileys makes me lean the other direction. To guard against this issue I think you should prob. try to hold steady on weight and then just alter your diet a bit to be sure you're not reaching carb overload.

If your period came the odds are very good that you did ovulate.

Every 4 days, you just start after AF ends and have unprotected sex every 4 days, the key is to start before you could possibly ovulate and continue going even after you think you should have ovulated.

OR, if you're in a super hurry to get pregnant you can do every 4 days plus one more attempt at positive OPK OR every 3 days instead. I would prefer to see you give it a month or two with e4d before doing either of these though.

[atomic sagebrush]

NO matter what I do want you to add in the serving of full fat dairy a day, 4-6 eggs a week, and then 1 serv. salmon if you like it or red meat if you don't. That will only help regardless of if this is PCO-tendencies or from cutting back too far. :)

[atomic sagebrush]

Hm, that's interesting. I keep reading that stress causes short LPs, and I guess that could be my issue...

People on these boards keep saying that if you can get a ten day LP than you can get pregnant though and yours was sometimes 11 days, so maybe that consultant was right - your LP was already long enough and you didn't need to worry about it.

There are a lot of things that can cause short LP. The main thing on our site is by cutting back too far particularly on fat, dieting too long, too much exercise, too few cals, etc. The secondary thing is PCO-tendencies - sometimes we go onto a carbier diet (which is good for swaying pink, not so much for PCOS tho) and for people who have the tendency to develop PCO this can cause it to flare up, in essence, delaying O and shortening up LP (usually this will be linked with trouble losing weight or even gaining it on less cals than you were eating before) Another thing is breastfeeding.

I think by the time we're thinking about stress, artificial sweeteners, etc then those things are so far down the list in terms of likelihood that they are miniscule in terms of importance. A super stressful month can both delay O and shorten LP but it just doesn't happen that much in isolation (without having a poor diet or being ill or whatever as well)

[atomic sagebrush]

RE consultant - "stress" is what medical professionals like to invoke when they really have no idea what is up with you. :) While there are women who get into a "watched pot never boils" kind of mindset where they are practically having panic attacks about TTC I don't think it's caused by charting per se.

For reasons that escape me, many doctors and nurses in the UK "do not believe in" short LP. YOu're not the first who reported a fertility expert did not even seem to know what it was or that it took them some time before they realized and were like "oh yes that idea".

The good news is that 8-11 day LP that varies is obviously not enough to prevent pregnancy and what your LP is tells you about what happened LAST month anyway and NEXT. By this I mean ok 8 day LP, that sucks, but then that doesn't mean that the upcoming month would not have been 11-14 days regardless. LP is very changeable and I've seen plenty of people with habitually 8-10 day LP get pregnant with no problem at all. 10-12 days I believe to be fine for conception.

If you got a BFP 5 days after seeing the guy you were already pregnant when you went in there. :)

[atomic sagebrush]

Thanks GlitterMouse!

I didn't even know what an LP was until a few months ago! I'd only tried to conceive the one time prior to this, and we got pregnant right away the very first month without OPKs or tracking or temping or anything.

I read online that coffee, alcohol, and artificial sugars are all associated with a short LP, but I honestly don't know how accurate that is. I'm kind of grasping at straws with the LP situation and just waiting to hear Atomic's perspective. As for fibre, I get more than enough from diet so I had a sense that it wouldn't be beneficial in my case.

As for E4D, yes, it should be unprotected. I've read Atomic say that it's best to just let your husband "do what he does" in between because trying to control this just leads to marital frustration. Our stats show there's no sway-related benefit to extra releases or abstaining anyway.

So much of what we read online is well-meaning people who have a specific mindset regarding things that they deem "bad" like coffee, alcohol, artificial sweetener. So they seize on the things that they already dislike/distrust and then put that forth as gospel, and if they are "easy" then even better (just like how doctors are blaming fertility issues on "not taking prenatals" or "breastfeeding" even though their own medical schools and guidebooks state point blank otherwise.) It's certainly not BAD to eliminate those things if anyone is concerned about them, but it is much, much more likely that a short LP is either from cutting back too far or from PCO tendencies than moderate intake of coffee, alcohol, artifical sweetener.

[GlitterMouse]

Oh my goodness Atomic. You are the kindest person x Thank you so much for such a detailed reply. I really didn't expect this and would have been happy with a brief outline. I am so grateful.

I'd read on a different post that you were having a tricky week and fully understood you may not have been able to respond this time. Big hugs and hope your week has improved.

I will read through all this information with DH over the weekend. I've mentioned before that he is a scientist and we both have full respect for your knowledge and dedication to providing factual, backed up information.

Thanks for taking time out in your life to help little old me here in the UK xxx

[atomic sagebrush]

Thank you so much Glitter, that response was very much appreciated. :heart:

[GlitterMouse]

Atomic, I've had a good look through all the information you have sent, thank you. I just have a couple of questions, just to make sure I have understood things properly! I will try to be brief!!

After talking to DH we have decided to wait 2 months before starting to TTC again. This fits into our life but also I feel I have been so far 'off the wagon', I need to get back on track, especially after committing so much time and energy to the plan, I don't want to fall at the final hurdle!! I hear what you're saying about salmon, eggs, dairy and will add these in. I will go back to exercising for an hour 5-6 times per week. Strangely, I've kinda missed it anyway!

Re PCOS diet, I'll be honest, I'm scared to leave your LE diet. I'm worried that my nutrition will swing too much the other way and sway boy?? I had stopped my fibre tablets, just got a bit lazy after taking them daily for months. Could this have impacted the OPK's?? I didn't replace the fibre with any other fibre rich foods?

I suppose basically what I'm asking is can I go back to what I was doing before and give myself 8+ weeks to get back on track? ie LE, vegetarian, no breakfast, Alcohol, exercise, coffee, fibre tabs PLUS salmon, eggs and dairy? Would this correct things? When I did this (minus the salmon, eggs and dairy) the OPKs were working fine, I was getting static smileys every cycle etc. OR do I need the PCOS diet to correct things further?

Also with regards to DH,he is the most unhealthy he has ever been (his words!) He's at his heaviest weight, run down etc... would you advise that he starts to exercise run/cycle or stay as he is? He was taking OLE but has become lazy with it. Should he start this up again?

Thanks in advance of your help. I know you're busy and appreciate any response when you have a minute.

[atomic sagebrush]

The problem is that if you really DO have PCO-tendencies, the higher levels of empty carbs in the standard sway diet may sway blue for you by raising your blood sugar and possibly testosterone. So those who need to be on that type of diet are not compromising their sway in any way. In fact the alt. diet is getting great results for us - I have even contemplated having everyone do it instead but it is too hard to stick to and many people would lose massive amounts of weight on it (it's also significantly more expensive if that is a concern). So please don't feel that it is a worse sway, it isn't.

All that having been said if you prefer the standard diet, it is always your sway, your way, and totally up to you. I personally could not have stuck with the alternate diet!! It is just something that I can't know - what is always going to be right for every individual.

Re your DH - I see a fair number of blue swayers with many daughters whose hubbies are heavy set, run down, etc. My husband was at his heaviest weight by far when we got our girl. My concern is that while we do have studies that indicate running/cycling sway pink, our observational experiences show that being overweight for DH also sway pink. So I just can't say for sure if one would be better than the other. OLE is supposed to help, this is one thing I'm still up in the air about. We've seen enough pink success so I can say that I certainly don't think it's swaying blue.

[GlitterMouse]

Thanks for your reply Atomic. I had a good look at the PCOS diet last night and think I probably have more reading/research to do. I will join the PCOS thread, I'm sure those girls have a wealth of knowledge and don't want to take up loads of your time when I can do some finding out myself.

Just a couple of quick questions:
In its simplest form, am I avoiding white carbs and sugar and introducing more wholegrains? Can this include wholemeal?

What are your thoughts regarding coffee, alcohol? I would miss those guys if I had to give them up :bigsmile: but will do if you think it takes me nearer to girl!

Should I stop being vegetarian now?

Would it be completely ridiculous to do a bit of both diets or would one undo the other?

Thank you

[atomic sagebrush]

Simplest boiled down PCOS diet:

Eat same number of cals you were before (or more if your weight is low)
Up protein and fat to 50-60 g (this effectively cuts carbs with no effort at all on your part)
Get carbs from better sources of carbs like whole grains and fruit and veg. Some people can have white rice as well as that is better tolerated by some people.

I am fine with PCOS diet having alcohol and coffee. There is a big complex explanation there so I'll just shorten it and say it can help with blood sugar a bit despite several sources having them down as no-nos. As long as you're eating well otherwise, then they are fine and probably beneficial.

You don't have to give up being vegetarian - you can easily get up to 50-60 g protein and fat while having mainly dairy and grain/legume foods. (only people who are the worst off have to give up on legumes)

Yes it's completely possible to blend the two. A lot of people do this. That way you're getting some benefits of the PCO type diet but at the same time are not jonesing so badly for a little bit of sugar now and then, and can have dinner at a friend's or whatever including some white bread or whatever. :)

[GlitterMouse]

Thank you so much Atomic. Sorry for my late reply, we've had a chaotic week!

I'm getting on board with PCOS diet now. Fingers crossed!! xx

[atomic sagebrush]

FX and TX too!