The thing I wonder about timing..

[EnglishDame]

Having read loads on this site about timing and understanding that the old age belief of 'boy sperm are fast, girl sperm are slow' is a load of nonsense, the timing thing confuses me. It's something I'm scared not to try since there are so many people that swear they had girls after a 3/4/5 day cut off.
I understand it doesn't work for everybody and lots (including you Atomic) have timing opposites, but isn't that the same with lots of the sway tactics?

Could it be that timing doesn't sway because of which sperm can get to the egg in what time, but more just that there won't be as much sperm around when ovulation occurs, therefore lowering sperm count as such?

Sorry if this has been covered, just wondering whether to do it as part of our sway!

[jdd1017]

After a lot of information on this forum we didn't do cutoff either this time, I swayed pretty hard for a girl, but I am pregnant with a boy. I followed the LE diet, lost 15-18 lbs, cardio 60 min a day, took clomid and femara, I feel like I had such a strong sway. The one thing we didn't do was one attempt, because it was our 4th month on fertility meds and I just wanted to get pregnant. I wish we would have done just one attempt now, BUT I have many times wondered if maybe there IS something true to timing as well. If we sway again, I will def do a cutoff of 3-4 days. Considering that was about the only thing I didn't do this time I just feel like it is worth a shot. So I guess that doesn't answer your question, but I wanted to let you know that I've wondered the same thing as you many times!


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[lucyandboys]

I think what they're saying is that cut off can work (if you're sufficiently fertile) but that more than one attempt in fertile period (which you can't really tell, because you don't know how long they hang around) can sway boy?

My ds3 was conceived with 3 day cut off, but multiple attempts prior to that.

[onelastsway]

For what it's worth and this is only my thoughts....I think timing can have an impact along with other stuff. I agree there is much more to it (hence all the opposites) but look at the 4 day cutoff stats - 14 out of 16 got girls. I think it sways because, as you say, there is less sperm hanging around and in a sense, is a way to lower fertility (swaying pink) and that often you have less EWCM at that time (if that is something that is relevant to you). I will be doing a cut off and one attempt - well, more clearly, I will be dtd when I don't have EWCM wherever that falls in my cycle. I got both my boys with lots of EWCM and two or more attempts in the fertile window. I don't think 2-3 days often works as this is often when you have lots of EWCM and still a very fertile time. That is the problem with a long cutoff - very unlikely to get pregnant. If i don't get pregnant for several months - I will have to reconsider this.

[foxtrotmama]

I think it's the one attempt thing. One attempt gets very good results, and if you have a cut off there's only one attempt in the fertile period. But, it drastically lowers the chances of getting pregnant so I wouldn't do it if actively TTC.

[atomic sagebrush]

It's because people don't know when they ovulated and assume they had to have had a cutoff when they didn't. We know this for a fact because even experts cannot pin down ovulation to the day any greater than one in 3 times. Ovulation moves around and so when people think they BD 5 days before O and conceived, the odds are very great that they did not.

There was just a recent study that came out in May of this year that went back through the old Shettles and other people's timing studies and using modern technology, found that most of the data they had used had completely miscalculated the day people had ovulated. So even the studies that claimed to show it worked, it turns out they didn't work. Many of them had people just BD on CD 11 for a girl and 14 for a boy. This same study found that the odds of conceiving 4,5 6 days before ovulation were quite slim, even 3 days before O is a long shot, and again, most of the people who will tell you they got pregnant BD on these days are mistaken. They ovulated early the vast majority of the time.

You guys are always welcome to do timing if you like. But the people who say timing sways, are saying timing in and of itself, no other factors, is what is swaying gender. We know that this simply cannot be true, because studies prove it, our results prove it, and Dr. Shettles was frankly wrong in his claims that X sperm live a long time and Y sperm don't.

I am no longer convinced about the numbers of sperm in and of themselves. Maybe, maybe not. I can't wrap my brain around if sperm numbers are really swaying, why are we getting neutral or worse than neutral results with things like jellies and antihistamines and frequency (all of which are meant to lower sperm numbers) if it's sperm numbers. Makes me think it ISN"T sperm numbers at all. So no, I can't sign off on the idea that timing = lower sperm numbers = swaying. We do know one attempt is swaying for reasons we can only guess at, and so I am not willing to sign off on the sperm numbers thing when it may be sperm communication or some other thing entirely.

If timing was harmless I would be fine with you guys playing with it indefinitely. The reason why I am so down on it, is a separate issue - it's because it cuts odds of conception to next to nothing, and then people who go on month after month after month with BFN, lose too much weight (or gain it for blue swayers) risk ovulation, and end up in a panic, dropping everything and doing whatever it takes just to get pregnant at all. This is a huge mistake to start off doing things that cannot possibly sway, sway for months/years, only to drop everything and end up swaying blue just to conceive.

[atomic sagebrush]

For what it's worth and this is only my thoughts....I think timing can have an impact along with other stuff. I agree there is much more to it (hence all the opposites) but look at the 4 day cutoff stats - 14 out of 16 got girls. I think it sways because, as you say, there is less sperm hanging around and in a sense, is a way to lower fertility (swaying pink) and that often you have less EWCM at that time (if that is something that is relevant to you). I will be doing a cut off and one attempt - well, more clearly, I will be dtd when I don't have EWCM wherever that falls in my cycle. I got both my boys with lots of EWCM and two or more attempts in the fertile window. I don't think 2-3 days often works as this is often when you have lots of EWCM and still a very fertile time. That is the problem with a long cutoff - very unlikely to get pregnant. If i don't get pregnant for several months - I will have to reconsider this.

When researchers actually used technology to pin down the day that people had sex in relation to their ovulation, 4,5,6 days before O were not very likely to end in conception. I think you need to take with a very great grain of salt the reported statistics in regards to timing because we cannot know when people actually ovulated in relation to their one attempt.

If I had not had sex when I had EWCM I would not have a daughter today.

I say this not to deter anyone from choosing whatever means of swaying they'd like. Just that I want you guys to go in to this fully informed instead of continuing to do things that do not work and have been debunked as much as it is possible for something to BE debunked.

[atomic sagebrush]

After a lot of information on this forum we didn't do cutoff either this time, I swayed pretty hard for a girl, but I am pregnant with a boy. I followed the LE diet, lost 15-18 lbs, cardio 60 min a day, took clomid and femara, I feel like I had such a strong sway. The one thing we didn't do was one attempt, because it was our 4th month on fertility meds and I just wanted to get pregnant. I wish we would have done just one attempt now, BUT I have many times wondered if maybe there IS something true to timing as well. If we sway again, I will def do a cutoff of 3-4 days. Considering that was about the only thing I didn't do this time I just feel like it is worth a shot. So I guess that doesn't answer your question, but I wanted to let you know that I've wondered the same thing as you many times!


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There seems to be a theoretical upper window of sway success. Let's be conservative say it's 80% (probably more like 65-70 but we'll just say 80%) That means that still 20% of people with "perfect" sways would still get boys.

You are absolutely welcome to use whatever sway tactics you want to, but you cannot base your sway decisions on the expectation that swaying is ever supposed to be 100% for people; if only we could figure out some magic way to do it that we'll then be guaranteed a child of a certain gender. It may very well be that diet + exercise + Clomid + X number of attempts = 80% theoretical ceiling and then adding timing onto that would then, still, yield 80% theoretical ceiling. Plus, adding timing would not only not help success rates, it would actually LOWER them because too many people would then stop ovulating (meaning that they would have to in essence sway blue just in order to get pregnant again) and/or that they'd give up on swaying totally.

I am down on timing not because I am trying to keep things from you guys or trying to be "right". I am down on timing because after watching people sway successfully and not so for nearly 9 years now, I have witnessed firsthand that the more people focus on stuff that doesn't work and go on and on and on not getting pregnant, that the results are disasterous for sways overall. People stop ovulating and have to sway blue just to get pregnant, and/or they end up panicky over too many BFN and give up swaying overall. This leads to WORSE results, not better ones.

Swaying is not a perfectable enterprise because there has to be a luck component to it. If there wasn't, the whole human race would have died out a long time ago.

[EnglishDame]

Thanks so much for everyone's replies, really appreciate the insight!

[onelastsway]

When researchers actually used technology to pin down the day that people had sex in relation to their ovulation, 4,5,6 days before O were not very likely to end in conception. I think you need to take with a very great grain of salt the reported statistics in regards to timing because we cannot know when people actually ovulated in relation to their one attempt.

If I had not had sex when I had EWCM I would not have a daughter today.

I say this not to deter anyone from choosing whatever means of swaying they'd like. Just that I want you guys to go in to this fully informed instead of continuing to do things that do not work and have been debunked as much as it is possible for something to BE debunked.

I'm sure you are right. You've looked at all this in a lot more detail than me. I just personally wouldn't feel comfortable with dtd when I have loads of EWCM as that's what i did with my boys. I see I was also on a very blue diet and am so thankful to this site for showing me this and also didn't drink coffee or really alcohol. Like I say I'm not so fussed about exact timing - more when I have the EWCM - I recognise I need some but for a couple of days each cycle I have a LOT so I would avoid these two to three days - they may not even be when I ovulate so not exactly timing and if I don't get pregnant for a couple of months I will reconsider this as would like to get off the diet asap so I do get that it's not a good idea to go ages doing timing when it probably has no effect!! Thanks for all the advice.

[CoralRoses]

I'm currently pregnant with a girl and followed the dtd every 4 days method for the whole cycle like Atomic sometimes recommends to do. According to scans we last dtd the day before I ovulated x

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[atomic sagebrush]

This thread keeps coming back to me in the back of my mind and I just have to say this. This is coming back from a different thread and not anything posted explicitly in this thread but I believe it needs to be said.

Ladies, it is your sway, your way, and you guys are always, always welcome to sway however you want. That's why I have timing information on this site (I sell a timing book, for Pete's sake) and info about things like pH and drying up EWCM and stuff. But it is very much my job to explain the reasons why those things are probably not actually doing anything and the risks of including them (which are actually quite a big deal for people - going on and on not getting pregnant and then giving up everything makes a LOT of opposites that you never hear about on pro-timing sites because they don't include them in their stats). If I DIDN"T mention this stuff, if I sat on it so I wouldn't make waves, and never mentioned the downsides, that would be all but an endorsement of timing - either way I would be putting forth some opinion or the other. Whether I speak, or whether I don't, it sends a message. Since every other site on the internet is still reporting this as unquestioned gospel truth, I feel that I do a pretty major service by pointing out the science debunking it and the very real downsides of pursuing timing as a sway tactic.

Sometimes people want to characterize this as me "arguing" or squelching dissent, but it is really because they would be more comfy if I just parroted all the other sites and we were all in agreement - not because of any factual reason, but because it makes them more comfortable with the sways they want to have. They want all the "experts" to be in agreement because they want to feel they're doing the best sway that they can. It puts me in a hard position because I just answer questions that are asked - I can't make people like the answers. :)

Once fully informed, every person can make up their minds about the type of sway they want to do. If you think timing is a factor for you, by all means!!! At the end of it all, it is always your guys' decisions to make. But this idea that we on this forum have ever held a gun to anyone's head and "not let them" do timing, or that we are in any way, shape, or form, doing something wrong or inappropriate by not "toeing the party line" with timing - sorry, that is utterly unfair and untrue.

It is simply IMPOSSIBLE to blend all the sway tactics into one megasway. They try to do it on other sites and it does not work. People did not get pregnant. People's marriages blew up in part because of the stress of extreme swaying. People ended up severely ill and in the hospital trying to blend all these things together. People went on swaying for 2 years only to get opposites! And some people who I started off with in 2008 still do not have children today because of this, because they wasted the precious years from their fertile window chasing things that do not work, and/or they alienated their husbands so severely over sway tactics that the men simply refused to TTC any more. AT some point we have to choose to do things that work vs. smothering ourselves doing things that don't work and only prevent conception.

I am fine with people blaming me for their failed sways as a general rule, but I think a line needs to be drawn when it is being said vocally (not in this thread but yes, this did happen) or implied, that I am keeping info from people, posting misleading information on this site regarding timing, or forcing anyone not to use timing when clearly I am doing no such thing. If I wanted to keep timing from you guys, I would delete my essays on how to do timing, I'd cease answering questions where I help people do timing - I do this daily, and I'd stop selling my timing book and OPK book both of which include directions on how to use timing for a sway.

It is the other sites that are keeping info from people - the science that indicates timing doesn't work, and the fact that they are hiding the downsides of chasing "impossible sways". When I report on these things I am doing what I consider to be my job and trying to unravel the mysteries of swaying to help as many people as I can.

So if that implication could be laid to rest now, I would really appreciate it, because I do not deserve it and it kind of hurts my feelings to be honest with you.

[EnglishDame]

Oh I'm so sorry Atomic I really hope I haven't in any way made you feel like I question your judgement, I think you are amazing at what you do on this site. I've learnt so much and so much that I can understand when I think about people I know and the genders of their children and of course my own.

Please don't think I was questioning what you advise at all.

[atomic sagebrush]

Oh I'm so sorry Atomic I really hope I haven't in any way made you feel like I question your judgement, I think you are amazing at what you do on this site. I've learnt so much and so much that I can understand when I think about people I know and the genders of their children and of course my own.

Please don't think I was questioning what you advise at all.

No, it wasn't you at all, this is coming over from a different thread and this thread just reminded me of it.

I want you guys to always, always ask me my reasoning behind my suggestions and I'm always happy to back it up. Then, you can always decide for yourselves about what to do. Your sway, your way!!!

I just do not like when an implication is made that opposites are happening because I"m "hiding" timing from people. Just is not the case. Not even a little.

[onelastsway]

Me too! I really hope I haven't made you feel that way. Like I said before, I fully appreciate all the stuff I've learnt on here. It's brilliant and I've changed so many things I wouldn't have even realised. There is so much great information and it is all so honest - I can't see how you would ever be accused of hiding something. I guess when people get opposites, sometimes they feel the need to blame someone. As far as I see it, I have more chance of getting a girl after reading your information and, if I get a boy, he's the one that's supposed to complete my family. So I'm grateful either way!

[atomic sagebrush]

No, not at all, and I always, always want you guys to feel free to bring up and discuss anything under the sun when it comes to swaying. but I will chime in with my opinion, not to be argumentative but just to share the reasoning behind why I do recommend the things I do. After that point, everyone can make up their minds and have the kinds of sways that they want to do. All totally cool. :)

I am sometimes highly passionate about that (some would say overly) but it is because I've seen people go through the wringer chasing this stuff and i really, really want you guys to succeed with swaying without it wrecking you. Two of my best friends when I first started swaying, had their lives largely wrecked by it. Swaying for 1-2 years doing timing and all the rest, both never got pregnant while swaying, both went on to have tens of thousands of fertility treatments and several miscarriages, one ended up getting a baby not her desired gender and sadly divorced, and the other never got pregnant again at all. These things do really, really have an effect on your long term lives and I hear this story again and again. Getting an opposite sucks, no doubt, but the alternative that could come to pass can suck a lot harder. :)

Putting soapbox away now.