L-arginine and blue sway opposites?

[A Mad Swayentist]

I'm a little worried DH might be "underpowered" as I'm pretty sure now that I O regularly and just need his help to get me pregnant, now that we're on cycle 3 of trying. I was perusing the blue sway stats and was surprised to see L-Arginine had such low success rates - is that a fluke? When I dug into some of the "case studies" it looks like the opposites were more likely to happen when DH alone took L-Arginine, rather than DH and DW both. Would L-Arginine for DH ever be worth it for a pink sway with MFI? And can it still be safely recommended for blue swayers, or are there caveats that should be followed?

(& I'm not sure if I'd ask my DH to take it anyway without getting himself tested first. But lately I've been wanting more to get pregnant rather than just get a girl. And dreaming of my son (even though my original dream was for him to have a bossy older sister - ha!))

[GirlieCat]

How often are you DTD in your fertility window? 3 cycles even not swaying is not an unusually amount of time to not get pregnant yet. How old is DH?

[atomic sagebrush]

According to any theory of swaying, l-arginine should sway BLUE for DH (and DW for that matter but I don't like DW to take it).

IN our blue stats, you have to take things with a very huge grain of salt because many of the men who make all girls have very low sperm count, testosterone, sex drive, etc. and so something that for them, fails to yield the desired result, when taken by a guy who makes boy after boy would just be MORE boy friendly, if that makes sense.

3 cycles is nothing in the grand scheme. It takes fully fertile couples doing nothing to sway, 3-6 months to get pregnant on average anyway.

In order to advise you, I need you to give me a brief list of what you guys are doing for your sway. A lot of times I can find something to tweak. People have a tendency to immediately assume hubby is shooting blanks but I have only seen this truly happen fewer than 5 times where the husband was later found to have abysmal sperm health (and 4 of 5 of them went on to get pregnant even with that bad sperm quality.)

[A Mad Swayentist]

Thanks guys. I'll definitely ask DH about a multi IF he tests low...but I'm not going to ask until he tests (which probably wouldn't be before Feb-May 2017).

In answer to your question Atomic: We're not having enough sex...but that should sway pink anyway, right? I'm 34; DH is almost 37.

DH has a lower sex drive than me, and even when not TTC we'd still only average about once per week in the last two years, plus usually skip sex when I was on my period (not worth the mess, even if I was horny). He is overweight and pretty fatigued from his job in IT most days (he works 9+ hr days most of the week and he commutes an hour each way on public transit). The low sex drive and lack of time to DTD mean I'm certain he's already naturally swaying pink with lower sperm count, which is why I haven't pressed the issue. He says he "helps himself" once in a while but I've never seen evidence of him masturbating either. I'm using BBT and CM (which has gone down since going veggie & skipping breakfast, but I always have a bit of eggwhite 1-2 days before I ovulate) to track my fertile days, and have ovulated each cycle since July when I started tracking. I haven't used hormonal birth control in 10 years - I tried tracking BBT right after I came off the pill as part of TTA, but got upset that I had an occasional anovulatory cycle and decided not to track it at that time. We've just used spermicide and barrier methods, mostly the diaphragm, until this August. Since July I've O'ed consistently on day 13 or 14 of my cycle, but had huge variability in luteal phase length (though some of that may have been due at least once to international travel). Other ladies on the TWW boards have said LE diet has messed with their luteal phases, so I'm just going to keep tracking in the meantime.

For environmental reasons I really don't want to start peeing on sticks and adding OPKs to the mix, but I'll do it if necessary. We got in one attempt before O (O-1) first cycle and two attempts (O-4 and O-2) second cycle; none after O. Again, I just saw the L-Arginine stat and thought it was really weird. In the name of swayence (especially since we're going for a first and don't have much stock in the game), I'd love to experiment on DH if his numbers are down. Though if he were to have serious MFI and we have to go for male Clomid or worse, I'm pretty sure I'd be out on the swaying front.

[A Mad Swayentist]

Oh, and DH is not on any supplements. He takes prescription Singulair and gets allergy shots once a month, and takes Claritin for allergies as needed a couple times a month. I'm taking folic acid and (in the spirit of self-experimentation) 50mg of Ubiquinol 4 times a week (spaced 40-44 hrs apart); nothing else. DH drinks a beer pretty much every night and has a huge amount of espresso along with a donut or muffin every morning. He is not vegetarian, but says he has been eating veggie or fish most days when having his lunch out at work.

[Throwaway_panther]

Eek, I hope it doesn't yield opposites -- my DH has been taking it for BP anyway, and we're hoping to sway blue eventually here so I thought it would only help us, haha.

I know OPKs might not be the environmentally friendly choice, but BBT can only ever tell you you have ovulated, so if you want to get pregnant faster, it might still be a benefit? I feel CM is a mixed bag, too -- I have watery and EWCM pretty much through my whole cycle, so I know it's not always the best indicator of when fertility is.

[atomic sagebrush]

ok I have like 3 seconds, can you bump this for me!! I thought it was short.

[A Mad Swayentist]

Ha, no problem! Except I don't have time to check in every day. Thanks again for the responses!

And I think I understand why L-Arginine SHOULD sway blue: beyond the fact that it's a protein, it's very pro-fertility. So according to two aspects of Trivers-Willard, it should sway blue. But I just was glancing at the blue stats for fun (and again, dreaming of a grinning baby boy, of all things!), and thought: huh. Why does that one look so much lower than the other blue sway factors? Or, is it just that our pool of blue swayers is too small for it to be properly powered? Or is there something else in the data that Atomic knows about from long experience or being able to lift the curtain on the stats and give more input? When I looked at the stats it said 33% success - which to me would say it's swaying pink, not blue! SO if there's something wrong with the data I'm seeing, please let me know!

[A Mad Swayentist]

Throwaway_panther, I really hope your sway WORKS! From what I've read in your previous posts you mostly needed a better diet to sway blue, so hopefully supplements don't play too big a role. I assume you're going full-on HE, right? Breakfast cereals, high protein & multivitamins for the win!

[A Mad Swayentist]

Panther, has your DH tried other things for BP like CoEnzyme q10 or ubiquinol? Those definitely are swaying blue in the stats. I've noticed that my BP has dropped about 5-10 points, both systolic and diastolic, on the low dose of ubiquinol (I was borderline hypertensive before, at least according to my stats at work; I'd always have normal BP at the doctor's office). Also, the DASH diet could be modified for his benefit to be more HE-friendly. Increasing potassium over sodium can't hurt and may help.

[Throwaway_panther]

Thank you! I hope we end up with a boy so badly, too, when we really go for it. I'd consider my lifestyle fully HE at this point, yes -- my diet is DRAMATICALLY different from when I conceived DD. I eat full fat dairy and red meat often, snack all the time, eat either granola or fortified cereals but generally eat oatmeal for breakfast, etc. Haven't touched coffee since I was 3 weeks pregnant with my DD (it was an aversion that has just stuck around, so it's only worked in my favor, haha), with black or green tea as part of my diet.
I've added supplements in because I took them before DD anyway, and since I've always had a lot of pills to take, a few more didn't bother me ;)

DH was recommended CoQ10 and I think red yeast rice once upon a time for BP, but I can't remember why he stopped using them -- I feel like there was some sort of contraindication somewhere. The L-Arg was recommended by a family member and it seemed less "side-effecty," so he started on that (with good results so far). Potassium salt has always been a friend in this house because of his chronic BP, haha! I'm actually the one adding salt to my own meals, since I have the opposite issue. Our hard water is even softened by potassium salt rather than sodium, just to be safe on his BP.

[atomic sagebrush]

I really, really, really cannot stress enough how big a mistake I think it is to add l-arginine to any pink sway based on the results of sway stats on this site. Really think it's a bad idea. Most of the husbands swaying blue have bad sperm health and low testosterone it is completely skewed how it actually sways. I think it's really, really, really a bad idea. I would 10,000 times rather see you add in something like folate or Vitamin D or just an overall male fertility vitamin. L-arginine is not some sort of magic fix for sperm issues, not even close, and I see you risking your sway over something that won't help sperm health anyway.

I have, on occasion, seen a few people whose husbands did have MFI and eventually it did happen. And when I say MFI, I am talking MAJOR MFI like making barely any sperm at all. I think oftentimes people are overthinking the "OMG DH is shooting blanks" after a couple of BFN. If 6-9 months passes, then yeah maybe, but 2 months is nothing.

I think with the cycle weirdness you guys need to be doing every 4 days and if you don't want to do OPK, then do every 3 days OR just add in a crapshoot attempt around O. I want you starting this e4d/e3d BEFORE you think it is possible for you to O and continuing it after you think you have. This will both improve your husbands sperm health and count and also up
your odds of conception since you may be missing ovulation.

Can you tell me more about your luteal phase?

[atomic sagebrush]

Ha, no problem! Except I don't have time to check in every day. Thanks again for the responses!

And I think I understand why L-Arginine SHOULD sway blue: beyond the fact that it's a protein, it's very pro-fertility. So according to two aspects of Trivers-Willard, it should sway blue. But I just was glancing at the blue stats for fun (and again, dreaming of a grinning baby boy, of all things!), and thought: huh. Why does that one look so much lower than the other blue sway factors? Or, is it just that our pool of blue swayers is too small for it to be properly powered? Or is there something else in the data that Atomic knows about from long experience or being able to lift the curtain on the stats and give more input? When I looked at the stats it said 33% success - which to me would say it's swaying pink, not blue! SO if there's something wrong with the data I'm seeing, please let me know!

Yes, I do know from long experience that it is highly, highly unlikely it sways pink. I think this is an exceedingly dangerous idea and I really cannot stress enough how much I'm opposed to this. Not only because it may sway blue, but because IT DOESN"T WORK as some kind of magic sperm fix. I've seen people with serious, severe MFI issues and it does nothing (at least alone, without a many-pronged effort to improve the situation) This includes regular BD. The absolute best thing you can do to improve his sperm health, 10 million times better and safer than arginine, is to have him release more often than once a week.

It is because so many blue swayers' husbands have other stuff going on. A shocking number of them smoke, and many, many others are on strong medicine or are significantly overweight, and have serious, serious, performance issues in the BD department. Some cannot BD without medication. Our blue stats are extremely misleading for this reason. They are not a carefully compiled body of data from a study.

What you have to remember is that the people who are here on this site are making girls (and usually lots of them) for some reason. Things that are not working that great for them will be devastatingly blue for people who are already set for blue.

[A Mad Swayentist]

Gotcha Atomic. And you understand that I'm MOSTLY just tired of swaying. :) I'm back in the middle of waiting to test, so my pessimistic side is just thinking about the coming months of BD and getting impatient to test for IF if necessary. And my sway is light for a reason - I really don't have that much at stake other than a slight preference for a girl for our first. But the itch to get pregnant at ALL is wearing me down.

Luteal phase vs. follicular phase: I've had a shockingly regular follicular phase (O day 13 8/9 past cycles, day 14 the other), and irregular luteal phase (10 days to 15 days, based on high temps - I'll have spotting most of the week before but high temps the whole time, then massive bleeding and cramps on day 1). So maybe a mild luteal phase defect? The high temps and normal length of SOME luteal phases bug me, not to mention the spotting is annoying. But the spotting has been going on since my late twenties, even when I wasn't TTC, so I'm sort of used to it by now. My gynecologist thinks it may be a cervical polyp based on my ultrasound results this summer; I'm not convinced but I'm planning to have a possible polyp removal scheduled in early 2017 if there's no pregnancy this round.

I really believe that while we are strongly naturally set for girls based on certain lifestyle choices, we were closer to 50/50 when I discovered this site and was inspired to make changes like going fully veggie & skipping breakfast as a rule (not a "oops, I don't know how to manage my life" thing - most of my adult life I've skipped breakfast or just had next to nothing calorically-speaking, but two years ago I got really into making a large dish of baked oatmeal with eggs and a mashed sweet potato that screams "blue sway" to me now - I'd make a huge batch for the week and had breakfast EVERY MORNING, alternating with overnight oats with full-fat yogurt, bananas and berries or other super nutritious but reasonably high-cal breakfasts. Getting hungry just thinking about it!). I'll freely admit too that while having extra time in the morning is nice (with no breakfast to eat), I did feel healthier when I was eating breakfast on the regular and can't wait to go back to it with my BFP (barring morning sickness or food aversions). I'm also generally less obsessive and more lassiez-faire than I was two years ago - I feel more like I fit the "girl mom" personalities of many blue swayers. And like I said, DH is OK, but not in the greatest health, between his flagging energy levels and allergies. I told him myself he really needs to take care of things at least every 4 days if we don't get around to regular BD, but, um, I can't confirm that he's even aware that that much time may have passed? And it's hard to convince him to DTD when he comes home late and we both just want dinner and to go to bed. With my super-regular O schedule I'm just telling him on cycle day 1 when day 11 and 12 are, and reminding him he's gotta perform on one of the two. I'm basing the "day 11 and day 12" on stats that show best odds of pregnancy on either O-1 or O-2, which matches with one attempt at pos. OPK (O is usually 24-72 hrs after positive OPK, right?).

[atomic sagebrush]

I understand and you can only get out of him, what you can get out of him, just don't add in the arginine. That's all I'm saying. I WISH it was a 'sperm health' magic pill but it really isn't and I hate to see anyone add something in that may undermine a sway for no benefit.

Yeah, that is a LPD but I do see people conceiving with that type of scenario. Would they consider Clomid??

Yes that's right on O-1/O-2 and when the OPK is.

At some point, it would be time to go to e4 though...

[A Mad Swayentist]

Thanks again Atomic. I'm going to be good and wait 6-9 months of TTC before asking for IF testing & possible Clomid. For hippie reasons I'd rather not do Clomid as I'm nervous about long-term risks and the limited use window (that you can only go for so many cycles before they pass you on to more high-tech interventions). And I'm not doing any medications or IF treatment unless DH gets tested too. But I promise I won't add L-Arginine to DH's regimen! I also will try to push for E4D next round regardless of the time in my cycle, instead of hoping he "takes care of business" if things don't work out otherwise. I've read too that more sperm are released from DTD anyway than masturbation, so obviously that's another bonus...if he'd get home on time...