Switching to LE PCOS version

[hopper]

After doing the regular LE version for so long while ttc previously I can't get my head around the PCOS version so I'd massively appreciate a little clarification if anyone has a few minutes to help me.

So I'm looking at eating 1800 calories daily, keeping to upper limits of protein and fat (both under 60g). Do I need to watch carb intake then and is there an upper daily limit I should aim to stay under like with fat and protein?
Is it basically avoiding white carbs like potatoes, white bread, white rice etc? But does that mean I can eat brown bread, brown rice, brown pasta and just avoid the refined empty carbs? I've never watched what I ate so I'm utterly clueless as to what I'm supposed to do!
I'm assuming protein in the form of chicken and fish and cheese is acceptable?
And what about dairy - do we go full fat or low fat?
Can I still have my coffee? And I take a drink pretty much nightly - can I still imbibe?
Also I've started on the regular LE diet and our first attempt will be in under 10 weeks - is that long enough on the PCOS version? I'm doing 60-70 mins cardio x5 a week if that helps.
Sorry for all the questions. I just need help getting this all straight in my head now before we start actively ttc!
Thank you!

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[atomic sagebrush]

If you're limiting cals and getting at least 50-60 g protein and fat the carbs take care of themselves (with the exception of people who really do have very severe PCOS) No need to count them. Then in addition to that, you will pick better quality carbs, so instead of white bread and sugar, you eat more whole grains and fruit and veg and get carbs from that.

Potato (unrefined potato, I mean) is fine. White rice is a gray area. Most people tolerate white rice much better than white flour - but again this is white rice itself and not highly processed rice flour...same with "gluten free" products that are based mainly on corn...corn (maize) is fine but that doesn't mean you can then eat a diet of processed potato flakes and rice milk and cornbread, as all that would be immensely refined carby. So while I absolultely think potato, corn, and white rice is ok for 9 out of 10 people on PCO-type diet, I just don't want this to translate into refined versions of those things if that makes sense.

Full fat dairy ONLY. No skim. Skim dairy is super bad in terms of carbs/blood sugar.

Coffee and alcohol are fine

10 weeks is fine! :agree: on exercise!

[hopper]

Thanks for your reply Atomic! I think I mostly understand (I'm incredibly ditzy so please bare with me)
So today for example - I had 3 meals.

Breakfast was a poached egg, one grilled tomato and three large grilled mushrooms with two lightly buttered (full fat butter) slices of whole grain brown bread. Coffee with full fat milk and aspartame sweetener (should I switch to sugar?)
Lunch was half a cup of tomato soup (store bought but within limits) two slices of whole wheat bread with a small piece of bacon and about 20G of grated cheddar cheese. Had a coffee again same as earlier.
Dinner was a small sirloin steak with a large tbsp of white mashed potatoes, broccoli and grilled mushrooms.
I drank a small bottle of diet coke throughout the day also.

I'm just after finishing my 70 mins cardio and will have a 4th small meal and glass of white wine.
My fat intake is 71g today! Protein is 66g. Cals are coming it at 1652 and MFP is saying I've burned 868 from my cardio. I don't really know what to do. I don't feel like I'm eating enough cals but having issues staying within limits for fat intake and feeling stupid cause I can't seem to fully wrap my head around processed foods vs refined foods vs whole foods. I'm thinking I should be sticking with whole foods though right? Or is the PCOS version an amalgamation of a bit of this and a bit of that?
Sorry for the sheer stupidity of this comment. I'm hoping it will all just click magically and I'll "get" it!

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[atomic sagebrush]

You are definitely on the right track but you're going to have to pick and choose between some of those things and get more fruit or something like that. instead of having egg and bacon and cheese and steak and butter all in one day you might leave out the bacon and half the butter and probably would have been just right. Then eating some fruit would put you right up in cals without any protein and fat.

And it's partly because the PCOS diet I have (the easy version) I did not design that to come in perfectly in totals, I meant that to be easier for people to use and fudged a bit on the totals in order to do that. So people do have problems with that original PCOS diet (the one that calls for 5 servings of this or that) getting it to come out right but then we just play around with it till it does.

Processed and refined are things like corn chips or powdered mashed potatoes or rice crackers. Instead of an ear of corn on the cob, or a baked potato, or a cup of rice, which are NOT super processed and refined. What you're trying to do is focus on carbs that are not like "crack carbs" LOL that you burn through super fast and make your blood sugar shoot up as if you just ate gummy worms or something, they are real food and not "snacky". :)

Keep asking till it clicks. Really want this to happen for you Hopper!!

[EnglishDame]

Hopper don't feel stupid at all, I really struggle to understand the carb thing too! If you looked at my google search history you'd see things like 'what are refined carbohydrates' lol. Good luck with the diet, I seem to be ok at staying in the limits most days but I know I'm eating some things I shouldn't. Like chocolate! That's hard for me to give up, I could literally live on the stuff! You sound like you're doing great!

[atomic sagebrush]

Remember the 80-20 rule, though, English! You get 80% of the results with 20% of the effort, and to get that remaining 20% result, you have to expend 80% of the effort!! My point is, if you're already doing 20% of the effort, you are already 80% of the way there and if a little choc finds its way into your mouth, it is ok because you are already getting great results! People feel like if they aren't miserable the entire time they are doing it wrong but you don't HAVE to be miserable!!

[hopper]

You are definitely on the right track but you're going to have to pick and choose between some of those things and get more fruit or something like that. instead of having egg and bacon and cheese and steak and butter all in one day you might leave out the bacon and half the butter and probably would have been just right. Then eating some fruit would put you right up in cals without any protein and fat.

And it's partly because the PCOS diet I have (the easy version) I did not design that to come in perfectly in totals, I meant that to be easier for people to use and fudged a bit on the totals in order to do that. So people do have problems with that original PCOS diet (the one that calls for 5 servings of this or that) getting it to come out right but then we just play around with it till it does.

Processed and refined are things like corn chips or powdered mashed potatoes or rice crackers. Instead of an ear of corn on the cob, or a baked potato, or a cup of rice, which are NOT super processed and refined. What you're trying to do is focus on carbs that are not like "crack carbs" LOL that you burn through super fast and make your blood sugar shoot up as if you just ate gummy worms or something, they are real food and not "snacky". :)

Keep asking till it clicks. Really want this to happen for you Hopper!!

Thanks so much Atomic! I've had a disaster of a weekend between visiting family (who think we are finished having kids cause I canNOT deal with the judgement!) so I had to be "normal" while with them. I'm not.stressing though, last time I beat myself up if I cheated and I know that's no good for pink at all!! I'm trying to get back on board today but I'm so tired with DS3 sleeping so poorly I went over on fat cause I ate really carby fatty biscuits after my lunch. I needed serious sugar to get over the midday hump but tomorrow is a new day!!

So if its not too much trouble would you mind just clarifying a few bits for me when you get a chance please Atomic?

1. Can I use aspartame in my coffee still or should I switch to Stevia or even regular sugar?
2. Low fat/diet foods: can I still eat these or should I opt for full fat if I can? I prefer full fat but have been having the diet versions as recommended on the regular LE diet. Can I use Fry Light for cooking instead of olive oil/veg oil?
3. I don't want to continue to track food intake as I have been doing. I can feel myself obsessing a little over what is carb heavy etc. So if I basically eat whole foods or a Paleo type diet with no snacking - is this the aim or am I totally missing it?
Like for ex I'd be looking at a day like this:
B: eggs with grilled tomato and mushroom or muesli or porridge oats and fruit.
L: whole grain bread with either deli meat or cheese (is low fat ok for cheese?) Full fat Greek yoghurt and fruit like grapes or berries. Maybe some chocolate if I really need it (I'm so addicted!)
D: grilled salmon or chicken or prawns with either baked potato and steamed veg or salad and a handful of homecut air fryer fries.
I'm having a 4th "meal" in the form of grapes, berries and a couple of Malteasers to curb the sweet tooth. Also having a glass of white wine with this 4th "meal".
4. So my sway is to basically try not to sweat the diet, not snack, alcohol nightly, lots of coffee, keep up the cardio x5 weekly, take Chitosan fiber and folic acid, use OPKs in Aug for attempt and take Clomid days 3-7? Does that sound ok? I just want to get it straight in my head and then forget about it if that makes sense? Last time swaying took over my whole life so I'm not going to take part in the 2WW groups and actually might remove myself from all social media as it increases my anxiety in general! Oh, I'm also seeing doctor tomorrow to discuss weaning off my anxiety meds and I will be having haemoglobin levels checked to see if I can decrease my iron supps which I currently take 305mg daily.
Sorry again for all the questions and just generally being a PITA! Hoping you and yours are keeping well Atomic, and thank you so much for all you do xx




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[atomic sagebrush]

please bump this for me, I had a doc appointment today and ended up taking all day

[hopper]

please bump this for me, I had a doc appointment today and ended up taking all day
**bump**
No worries Atomic, hope all is well! Whenever you get time is just fine! Had GP appt myself yesterday and it took an age also so I totally hear ya!!

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[Prettyplease]

Following. I'm interested in knowing if aspartame is okay with PCOS. One danger of the internet is reading too much!

[hopper]

Bump

I'm fairly sure I've been messing it up entirely so I don't think I can count the last 3 weeks as being "on" diet. I've stayed mostly within the upper limits for protein and fat, always under 1800 cals but am eating foods that I'm concerned are not great on a PCO type diet.

I've a bit of a better understanding since last posting but would really appreciate a little feedback whenever you have time Atomic :)

I'm wondering about the following:
1. Should I stop having aspartame sweetener?
2. Can I have white rice and potatoes (not together of course) or are these too carb heavy?
3. Should I be opting for whole grain breads and crackers etc instead of the white versions?
4. Can I eat some form of meat type protein daily? Like seafood or chicken for dinner with either rice and veg or potato and veg?
5. Eggs, yay or nay? I had cut them entirely but have found they are really useful to keep meat intake down as they fill me up. Are egg whites better tolerated maybe? Should I ditch the yolks?
6. Low fat foods - avoid entirely? And if so what about soft drinks?
7. Alcohol - white wine is my go to but sometimes a beer is nice for a change. Is this totally counter productive for PCOS diets? And on the topic of alcohol, do most swayers drink nightly? My DH is less than impressed with how much wine is flowing through our house of late. I rarely drink and my mother is a recovering alcoholic so he is drawing (unwarranted) parallels.
8. Sugar....well, I have gained a massive sweet tooth since doing the standard LE in 2015 and am finding it hard not to follow up meals with something containing refined sugars. I don't want to constantly be berating myself for giving in and having something sweet but fruit doesn't seem to cut it like chocolate does! Any advice would be WONDERFUL!
9. I'm eating 3 meals, sticking mostly within limits 1800 cals, 60G fat, same on protein. I have lost just under 3lbs in the 3 weeks since starting so I am including some fruit with my nightly alcohol like a 4th mini meal. I'm thinking that closer to ttc should I drop back on fat and protein or calories or should I just stay the same? I don't want to lose weight too fast but at the moment I think I'm eating almost too healthily for LE!
10. I've been taking iron and a prenatal multivitamin. I don't know if its related but my cycles have shortened to 26-28 days, they were 34-35 days. Should I continue the vitamin for now? I'll be continuing the iron 3x weekly from here on in.
11. The pharmacy would only fill my rx for Clomid for one month. To get the remaining months I need to go back to my GP and I have a feeling my GP won't fill it for me as it was an old rx (it wasn't dated though) as they know we haven't been ttc and DS3 is only 11 months. Anyway I'm hoping one month is enough considering the effects carry over to the following month (don't they?) So on that note which method is best for us: e4d or once at +opk?

I'm really sorry for the bajillion questions and totally get that you are busy! Whenever you get a chance to reply is totally fine. I'm only online sporadically myself anyway so may not see your reply for several days.
Thanks!

Oh and PS your profile picture is BEYOND adorable!!
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[atomic sagebrush]

Thanks for your patience. This was one of those posts that felt really long in my head but now that I'm rereading it I was able to answer more quickly anyway, sorry for the delay

1)Yes, aspartame is fine with PCOS. Stevia may sway blue (not sure how much I buy this but it's the theory) and sugar isn't first choice for anyone trying to cut back on carbs.

2)I prefer you guys eat whole and real foods as much as you can. Low fat and diet foods are nearly always loaded with carbs and sugar to make up for the taste of the lack of fat. Fry light is fine, just use the serving size because the way those kind of products work is by limiting your serving size to a certain extent, and so if you use more than the serving you are NOT going to be getting the cal/fat amount as listed on the container.

3)Yes that's fine, just watch the protein, don't go overboard with it. The tracking is useful at the beginning but fine to drop over time.

That type of diet looks great to me. :agree: I prefer no skim dairy (including low fat cheese) as they are very carby and the diet dairy stuff is really terrible for blood sugar for reasons we do not understand.

4)Your sway is looking really good to me. :agree: Don't worry about the iron if you need to continue. I have not found iron to really seem to sway. I have loads of people who have had to take them and still got girls and I am fairly convinced that they don't do much if anything for pink sways.

[atomic sagebrush]

second post:

If you're in the limits and have not been eating gobs of white flour and sugar then you're fine.

1)aspartame is fine

2)For some reason potatoes and white rice are generally well tolerated and especially since you're on this diet more as a preventative they are fine for you.

3)Yes

4)Yes but monitor serving size so as not to completely go overboard

5)Eggs are allowed. Both whites and yolks. Most people keep it to 6 eggs a week max

6)Most "diet" foods have had fat removed and replaced with sugar for taste, so I'd not resort to those. Soft drinks - if they are sugared, skip or limit to very occasional use. If diet, they are ok

7)It is fine on PCOS diet to have 1-2 drinks a night. (I can give explanation as to why if anyone wants it) Beer is ok. Whatever you like. Why not hold off on alcohol for now and save it for around attempt?? We don't know how long you need to have it in advance anyway. Conflicts with DH aren't going to help your sway any.

8)Even if you've just cut back what you were eating in terms of sweets, it still helps. This is not an all or nothing thing, any change you make helps (both with swaying and the PCO angle of it.) Just do your best and if you need some choc to make it through, it is a huge difference if you have that on top of an otherwise good diet vs. a very very carby one.

9)Just stay there as long as the weight loss continues (or stops if you are in the cutoff zone under 21 BMI) I know it feels counterintuitive but we are finding a sweet spot that includes a lot of fruit and veg. The nutrients in them do not appear to sway in the way that we'd originally thought. And as for the 60 g fat and protein, we've had, if anything, better results with this type of diet than the standard. I have had more and more people use it and our results overall have improved at the same time (I would try having everyone switch but it's too $$, too hard to stick to, and would make some people waste away if I tried). So please carry on doing waht you're doing.

10)Did your cycles shorten at the same time as you started the diet??

I'd reduce both to 3x a week unless you really need the iron daily. I have not found iron to be a very strong swayer anyway.

11)Oh, bummer. yes, the pink effects seem to go at least for one more month. Start off with e4d starting after AF ends and going thru till when you're sure you have ovulated (even if this means going thru till next AF starts!!)

If it's 50 mg, we can try halving it to 25 with pill splitter if you wanted to.

[hopper]

Thanks Atomic! No hurry with replies, I completely get that you are busy and I'm being a total PITA with the nitty gritty questions lol!

Thanks for all the answers. That point you made about this not being an all or nothing thing and that any chance helps has really made me chill a lot more so thanks so much for pointing that out!
Just I'm response to your questions:
I think the cycles have changed since starting the diet. I think this month actually might be longer again. I'll know more as I should be due AF this weekend if this cycle is shorter than usual like the previous one.
I've reduced iron and the vitamins.
In regards to the Clomid - would it still sway if we split the pills to 25mg? I'm clueless but since I was only prescribed it before conceiving DS3 I know I "shouldn't" need it so it's purely as a sway tactic that I want to include it.

One last question from me: I'm regards to exercise, some weeks I'm not sure I can manage the 5x weekly. Is 4x a lot more blue friendly? I will try do it 5x weekly but there may be weeks where I can only manage 4x.


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[atomic sagebrush]

How many months was your cycle short?? Sorry if you mentioned that already, skimming over the posts and I did not see it.

We do think the 25 still sways, maybe not as hard, but then again for all we know, 2 months may be better than one. Just can't say for sure, I'm sorry.

Not enough data on the exercise but the results have been so good, even at 4x a week I still recommend doing it.