A few questions now we're getting closer to attempt

[EnglishDame]

Hi ladies! Just a couple of questions that I can think of just now. Does less sleep sway? So going to bed later and getting less sleep that way will it help a girl sway?

Also I'm really confused about this e4d thing, I had thought that would be best as I only have 2 months worth of clomid. Am I right in thinking we should probably start with this straight away instead of one attempt at opk since we don't have time to waste? Also kind of confused about what e4d actually means. Would this be say attempting on a Monday then again on the Friday? So 4 days later? Or would the next attempt be the Thursday? That sounds like a silly question now but I don't want to get it wrong!

Thanks :)

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes, less sleep seems to sway pink BUT it can also mess up your fertility as well so don't carry this to extremes.

Yes you need to start off with e4d from the get-go with only 2 months of Clomid.

It's not a silly question at all as actually people do it both ways depending on circumstances. But when we are doing it to boost odds of conception like we are in this case, we treat it so we would end up with attempts on O-3 and O day in the worst case scenario. (it won't necessarily work like this, more likely we'd have attempt O-1 or O-2 but the "worst" situation would be O-3 and O day) This ends up being Monday and Thursday.

BE sure you start the e4d right after your last dose of Clomid and continue on till after you are 110% sure you've ovulated even if this means going straight through till next AF or BFP!

I would also consider, the second month on Clomid, adding in another attempt at pos OPK. This may be a bit more blue friendly. Then the month after the Clomid (if we get that far, which hopefully we won't) go back to the e4d method as the Clomid does still sway pink at least one month after stopping it.

[EnglishDame]

I've been staying up later to make for a shorter night sleep. Not extreme or anything just maybe 6 or 6 and a half hours a night instead of 8 or more.

Yesterday I realised I may have went over on grains, I had 2 wholemeal Pittas at one meal and 2 wholemeal slices of bread at another (I know you prefer wheat free bread on LE pcos but I can't stomach it at all)
I'm not worried about that many grains for one day but if that were more regular would that be bad? I'm only 5 weeks out from our first attempt now so want to make sure what's ok. 155g of carbs it worked out to be, the rest of the carbs came from vegetables mostly.

Thanks again for your advice, you're a star!

[atomic sagebrush]

Ok but if you really feel like you need the sleep, don't hesistate to catch up now and then.

It's a little over the rec. amount of 150 g but the metformin corrects for that. I'd feel ok with that since you're on the Met.

[EnglishDame]

Thank you! Feeling scared now we're getting closer. I don't feel like I've been strict enough on the diet and that I'm relying too much on the met and clomid. I still have a sugary snack a couple of times a week, I just feel too deprived if I don't! I'll be so annoyed with myself if I've messed up. It's my personality though I never can diet generally either, I've no willpower!

[atomic sagebrush]

But you have though. The Metformin corrects for a LOT of diet stuff and then the Clomid is a fantastic sway tactic!!

[EnglishDame]

I've got 5 weeks to be strict hopefully it'll all be enough and like you always say there's no guarantees. If we get another boy he'll be loved just as much as our son. My heart just aches for that little girl. I know everyone here understands but even my dh doesn't. Although he does want a girl and he's on board with swaying he doesn't get my worry about being disappointed.
Anyway I'm going off on a tangent here! Really appreciate all of your help and advice!

[atomic sagebrush]

Please don't worry about being too strict though!! That is what I want you to take away from this because I find the people who get super hung up on every scrap of food that goes in their mouths are more likely to have opposites than the people who are laid back about it and follow the 80-20 rule. You are doing the diet right already. You do not need to go any stricter than you are.

[EnglishDame]

Ok, I promise I'll try and not to overthink it :)

Another quick question if you don't mind. My dh is a serial diy-er, he has admitted to me that he helps himself most days. Could that be raising his testosterone? I feel like he generally has pretty high testosterone and it worries me a bit. What should I have him do in terms of helping himself or not for the next 5 weeks and during our e4d attempts?

[atomic sagebrush]

You can start off having him help himself every day (if poss) during the e4d - so use the e4d as his release on those days but have him do daily release in between. Then if you don't conceive that way we will drop that over time.

In the interim, I'd just let him do what he does. I am not at all convinced that "high testosterone" works quite like that (and I can go into a mindnumbing explanation if you would like)

[EnglishDame]

Ok that won't be a problem for him I'm sure, just concerned about only having 2 months of clomid too!

I'd love to understand it better but I know you're a busy lady and I'm already so appreciative of all your advice :)

[atomic sagebrush]

Ah, sorry, I didn't reread the entire thread start to finish again, I was viewing this thru the lens of your being worried about his high testosterone and not the Clomid thing.

Yeah, if you have 2 months of Clomid, we should not do that. Have him release NO oftener than every 2 days (so just one in between the e4d attempts only if he can't stand not to.) Or just stick with every 4 day releases (if he is willing.)

Explanation:

Sex and high testosterone is a chicken and egg kind of deal. He's probably releasing that often because he has high T and NOT vice versa. A guy with naturally lower T simply doesn't and couldn't release that much. So it's not (as you're thinking of it) that he has to not release because it's making his T levels high, his T levels are gonna be high regardless, even if he doesn't release as often. The amount of his release is really not a supereffective way to lower testosterone levels, there are numerous other reasons why a man has high testosterone entirely aside from the amount he releases and additionally I find no benefit to any hubby being pent up and b!tchy while you're trying to get them to cooperate with swaying in other ways.

[EnglishDame]

Ahh I understand, so even if he stopped releasing every day his T levels wouldn't likely change.
Is there any way at this point that we can lower his T levels or should we just not worry too much about it?

If I ask him to abstain apart from our attempts I'm sure he would, I just worried that he would be saving up the sperm and be in for a good sperm count for our attempt when it would normally be more depleted. Trust your advice though :)

[atomic sagebrush]

Yeah, exactly. Worrying over minor, do-nothing things like that is like worrying over the menu while the restaurant burns down LOL - just doesn't matter enough (or at all) in the grand scheme.

The catch 22 is that lower sperm numbers = lower odds of conception. There IS no way to both lower sperm count and also up odds of conception, they're mutually exclusive. So you're really asking me something impossible - both to lower your husband's sperm numbers but also be in with good chance of conceiving on the Clomid - just cannot be done! But the thing is that Clomid is much higher odds of pink than the FR (by far!) so it makes sense to let go of the FR and focus on conceiving on the Clomid.

[EnglishDame]

Right I see what you're saying Thanks so much, definitely feeling clearer about things! :)!

[EnglishDame]

One more question, I can't seem to find the answer to. I have probably eaten sugar most days for the last week, there seems to always be chocolate or biscuits at work and I have no willpower with sweet things. Even before this last week I would say a few times a week I've probably had something sugary and today I am having a bit of a panic that my sway is getting ruined and that we should put off our attempt. I'm only on 1000mg of metformin which I know isn't the highest dose. Is it enough to make sugary things more ok? Nearly every day I'm still only eating twice a day with a 17 hour fast overnight so then 6-7 hours between the 2 meals. Does that make a difference?

My eating habits are massively different to when I conceived my DS but I just don't know if it's enough.

If I give up sugar at 4 weeks out which is where we're at is that ok?

Can anyone that's swayed with pcos tell me if they totally excluded sugar?

[EnglishDame]

I suppose what I'm asking for help understanding is if metformin kind of resets my reaction to sugar at all? If regular pink swayers can eat sugar and I'm assuming it spikes their blood sugar levels too then what is it that makes it bad for pcos-ers and does metformin make it a bit more allowed? I remember reading on this site that metformin kind of does the same to your body as the pcos le does but i can't find where I read that again.

Sorry for all the questions Atomic, I just feel if I understand it better I can apply it easier if that makes sense.
I can't believe how much I've learned about my own body since I've been on this site, if it wasn't for gender dreaming I wouldn't even know I had pcos in the first place! Even if we get pregnant with a boy I'll definitely be back for a future away if my hubby will go for a 3rd. I truly believe in all of this (just wish I was better at it!!)

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes yes the Metformin does reset, or correct, a lot when it comes to your body's reaction to sugar. In fact most people who take Met do not even change their diets at all and it still helps them!!

To answer your question specifically, YES when people with insulin issues like PCO eat sugar, their body spikes blood sugar (as everyone's does normally) but either they don't release enough insulin or more commonly, the body is "deaf" to the insulin and this is why it's called insulin resistance. The insulin that is supposed to lower blood sugar, doesn't work because the body doesn't respond to it normally. The blood sugar goes higher, stays up longer, and drops slower, and this in turn raises testosterone. So Metformin makes your body act more like a NONPCOS person and while your blood sugar will of course still go up when you eat sweets now and then, it will "hear" that insulin better and then blood sugar will drop like it's supposed to. :)

[EnglishDame]

Thank you once again Atomic! That's fantastic info :)

[EnglishDame]

Ok so now we are on cd1 of our first attempt month! Starting clomid on cd3 so Tuesday, going to take it before bed and hope for the best in terms of side effects. Pretty nervous!
What I wanted to ask was should our first unprotected attempt be the day after I stop the clomid? We are going to do e4d, so clomid 3-7 then first attempt on cd8? Is that ok? Any tips for the 2ww? I heard pineapple can help the implantation process? Trying not to get my hopes up it's only the first month but I only have 2 months of clomid so really praying this works!

[thirdtimeclucky]

I didn't realise we were to stay under 150g carbs? Better stay on track with that!

[thirdtimeclucky]

Sorry to hijack your post english dame! :oops:
Good luck for your attempt!

[EnglishDame]

Carbs is something I don't actually pay much attention to if I'm honest. I focus more on protein and fat and have a lot less carbs than I used to but I know that most days I'm probably over the 150g, just need to hope that doesn't make my sway fail but I know I'm doing the best I can. If it's not enough I've tried. This is the pcos le diet though, the normal le diet I'm not sure about!

[atomic sagebrush]

1)Yes that's a good time to start the e4d.

2)It is highly unlikely that anything you eat really does anything. I find the whole pineapple thing to be psychological and unneccesary. Plus, if you needed to eat a certain food such as pineapple to make a baby stick in your uterus the entire human race would have died out a long time ago since pineapple is native to South America and no one ever ate it until people began moving into that area (15,000 years ago) and then all the rest of us didn't experience the joy until the 1500-1600's (and generally much later than that)

The human body knows how to get and stay pregnant without eating a magical food. It's fine if you want to eat it, but it is not necessary to pregnancy.

[atomic sagebrush]

I didn't realise we were to stay under 150g carbs? Better stay on track with that!

That is just a guideline for people with moderate to severe PCOS. If you're on the PCO-type diet for some other reason you have much more leeway than that (or if you only have mild to mod. PCO)

[thirdtimeclucky]

That is just a guideline for people with moderate to severe PCOS. If you're on the PCO-type diet for some other reason you have much more leeway than that (or if you only have mild to mod. PCO)

Ahhh so I don't have to worry too much about carb amount if I'm on the normal LE diet Atomic?
I'm finding I'm finally getting a bit of an idea of how to stick to my limits with protein, kjs and fat. To add carbs in will just throw another spanner in the works for me! Haha

[atomic sagebrush]

Ahhh so I don't have to worry too much about carb amount if I'm on the normal LE diet Atomic?
I'm finding I'm finally getting a bit of an idea of how to stick to my limits with protein, kjs and fat. To add carbs in will just throw another spanner in the works for me! Haha

No, this thread is me talking to some people who have PCOS and are on the alternate diet. And even people on the PCO-type diets do NOT need to count grams of carbs under normal circumstances. When I made the PCO-type LE Diet I took all that stuff into account and by counting ONLY calories, protein, and fat, and changing over to "better" carbs like fruit, veg, whole grains then the carbs take care of themselves without even having to worry about it.

[atomic sagebrush]

Carbs is something I don't actually pay much attention to if I'm honest. I focus more on protein and fat and have a lot less carbs than I used to but I know that most days I'm probably over the 150g, just need to hope that doesn't make my sway fail but I know I'm doing the best I can. If it's not enough I've tried. This is the pcos le diet though, the normal le diet I'm not sure about!

Agh you guys, I am not sure how we have gone so far off the rails here but:

1)Anyone on the PCOS-type LE Diet does not need to worry about carbs anyway as the guidelines take care of the carbs for you.

2)Only people with relatively severe PCOS (UNTREATED by other dietary changes or Metformin) ever need to worry about that beyond following the alt. diet anyway. This is like 1% of all the people on the site, if that even.

3)IF you are already following an overall sway diet that is tailored towards PCOS and/or are on Metformin (which please recall, English, corrects for much of this) you even more so do not need to worry about this.

I do not want, and never HAVE wanted anyone to count grams of carbs. It has never been part of the LE Diet in any way, in any form of the diet at all. I can't remember specificlly what was asked that the number came up but that is a guideline for people who have moderate to severe PCOS and are not already on an appropriate diet and or medication.

[atomic sagebrush]

Ok but if you really feel like you need the sleep, don't hesistate to catch up now and then.

It's a little over the rec. amount of 150 g but the metformin corrects for that. I'd feel ok with that since you're on the Met.

I was trying to reassure someone with PCO who had eaten 155 g of carbs (PLUS is taking medication!!) that their diet was fine. I was using that number as a way to reassure someone who was afraid that they were eating too many carbs that they were actually very much in line with the guidelines even for people with severe PCOS!!

[EnglishDame]

Really appreciate all the wonderful advice Atomic!