When do YOU count CD1

[squigglepink]

Any one here that has had spotting or pink / brown whatevers just before AF officially arrives. Do you start counting your day 1 from when the spotting etc starts or when the bleeding starts? I had two days of wiping pink blood and then the 3rd day was full blown period, which has gone on for 4 days. So im either on day 4 or day 6 if i include the pink prior!? Sigh!

I also started this pink wiping business on CD21 - which is kinda strange.. My cycles are usually 26 or 28.. not sure whats going on here..

[SoFullofHope]

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[ksmom]

My RE told me bright red flow is CD1. I was also told that if you wake up to AF, just count that morning as CD1 even if it may have started during the night.

[atomic sagebrush]

In your case it was the 3rd day.

A rule of thumb I like to use is that you guys should look back at your other cycles and also when O was to help you understand this better. Some people always start with a day of spotting and it happens religiously every month after a 14 day LP. So since it always happens for them, and their LP was 14 days long, then that is evidently just how their flow seems to, well, flow LOL and they should count as CD 1. But another person, let's say they always start with a heavy day and then all of a sudden, they have slight spotting on 12, 13, and 14 DPO and then the heavy day comes. That is spotting at the end of the LP.

Are you doing the full fat dairy serving every day and 4-6 eggs a week?? If not, do.

[Throwaway_panther]

As a flip side, do you count those last days of spotting as part of the period? I know it's less of an important detail, but I wonder if the rule applies to both ends of a period.

[squigglepink]

Its tricky to look back at my cycles, which have been all over the place since the miscarriage last year! Also the spotting before is not really something ive had in the past. (afterwards yes)

I dont ever know when i ovulate. I have the typical O pains but i dont know if that is before, during or after i ovulate so i just use the opk's for a positive and go from there.. (although doing E4d now)

Not doing the Full fat dairy and not that many eggs no, but something i can do.
Im sure i read that eggs are not great if you have fibroids?

[atomic sagebrush]

As a flip side, do you count those last days of spotting as part of the period? I know it's less of an important detail, but I wonder if the rule applies to both ends of a period.

Yes if it's spotting at the end of the period, that's part of the period (spotting within 48 hours, ish) It actually ~could~ be important if a person was having midcycle bleeding, and they had a long period so 7 days of bleeding and then midcycle bleeding starting on CD 10 and going thru CD 14...people can easily confuse period with midcycle spotting in that case. Luckily we don't have that as much on this site but it does plague some people. :) Good question.

[atomic sagebrush]

Its tricky to look back at my cycles, which have been all over the place since the miscarriage last year! Also the spotting before is not really something ive had in the past. (afterwards yes)

I dont ever know when i ovulate. I have the typical O pains but i dont know if that is before, during or after i ovulate so i just use the opk's for a positive and go from there.. (although doing E4d now)

Not doing the Full fat dairy and not that many eggs no, but something i can do.
Im sure i read that eggs are not great if you have fibroids?

In that case, then I'd assume that since the full flow started after 2 days of spotting then that was CD 1 and not the spotting. another handy rule is "if you think it's AF, then it probably is" meaning if it doesn't seem like AF (and wiping pink does not) and you then later get something that does seem like AF, consider that AF unless it is part of a normal pattern for you.

4-6 eggs a week is not going to make anyone's fibroids grow out of control. I think you're having the spotting because your estrogen is LOW so you can withstand that. :)

[squigglepink]

Thanks Atomic. I do like eggs.

Re the spotting.. Im seeing someone this week actually. I cant take it anymore. It also occurs a few days after AF has finished.
It has been like this since the hysteroscopy in April. I have AF, then AF stops then spotting starts and then stops and then starts and then round about positive OPK it stops. And then about 2 weeks later AF starts again and so the cycle continues. My doc said it could be my hormones / body adjusting but i mean how long? So i dont know if i need something to regulate my cycles..

[atomic sagebrush]

I think you may be low in estrogen, in addition to the milk and eggs, let's add in a serving of salmon if you like it and red meat if you don't. Drop fiber and cut back exercise to 4 days a week if you were exercising.

Did they see anything in the hysteroscopy that could explain this, like fibroid or polyps or cervical erosion?

[squigglepink]

Yes, they spotted fibroids.. Im bleeding again. Sigh! Seeing someone tmw so hope its nothing too serious.

Thanks for your advise

[atomic sagebrush]

please keep us posted!! It is possibly from the fibroids.

[squigglepink]

Hi, ok update:
He did internal US and lining is thin and regular - and according to Gynae pretty much on par with that of one who is menstruating/end of. He found no trace of any fibroids. He pointed out follicles on the right ovary but battled to get a clear pic of left ovary but said all ok and nothing sinister going on. He cannot explain the spotting/irregular bleeding but mentioned it could be something to do with my ovulation. I told him id had bloods and the results indicated my progesterone levels meant i had ovulated and he said that is an old way of detecting ovulation and it doesnt always mean that we have infact ovulated (Great!)

His only solution for my cycle/irregularity - were hormones/contraception but, as he stated, not helpful if im trying to conceive. He wont refer me to a fertility specialist as we have not been actively trying for 2 years. And it was a categorical NO for clomid (thought id take a chance :)
He recommended (due to being 40) chucking the OPK's and regular BD once/twice per week. Healthy diet, exercise and Folic Acid.

Im going to however, use OPK's (just because i have them) and also because of the bleeding/spotting ive had this cycle and im perplexed as to what is going on. Currently CD10 and as per the US - menstruating (still/again). (remember i started off spotting then full flow then stopped then spotted then full flow again) So that puts me where i am today and i dont know when this current bleed will end. So, once it does i think we will do the E4d and i will just keep a tab on whats going on by doing the OPK's.

And dare i mention the word Vitex?? :bigsmile:

[atomic sagebrush]

LOL ok whatever he says ???? (places all around the world still using that method for determining ovulation)

Yes keep going with e4d. Use OPK if you want but I agree they're not necessary.

It is criminal not to refer a 40 year old woman for fertility treatment before 2 years. Absolutely criminal. I'm really sorry that is completely out of line and NOT the standard of care in any nation of which I'm aware. We do have chronic probs with docs in the UK hesitating to intervene with fertility struggles, but 2 years is NOT standard at all for ANY woman particularly at age 40. You should be referred SOONER at 40, more like 3-6 months.

Do NOT touch vitex with a 10 foot pole. That will be throwing gasoline on the fire, it will make matters worse if your hormones are lowered and that is what is causing this (which is what it appears to be to me)

So what was the explanation as to why one doctor had seen fibroids and another has not?

[squigglepink]

Yea, that's what i thought - if its a redundant test why send me for one?! I had to wait aaages to get that appointment yesterday. (I could have had a baby in the meantime)... He said ive got two children already so i am capable (yeah - sort of!) :sigh: And clomid he said maybe in another country but i will very unlikely get it here :shrug: (whilst emphasising my age and fertility decline)

So im over this whole debacle and we are going private. Ill be going on my own mission now..

The Fibroids were spotted and pointed out to me during hysteroscopy. This dude who did the internal yesterday said no sign of fibroids.. So should i go for another US to like tripple confirm? Sigh..

[atomic sagebrush]

Now that is a fact - for some reason in the UK they are really miserly with the fertility treatments and people who would be given assistance in US or Oz or any other country in Europe are left totally hanging, it's really frustrating. WE used to be able to get medication for our Brits in Spain but someone told me they couldn't get it the other day so now I'm no longer sure that's doable. :/

I wouldn't even worry about the fibroids. Something that actually IS falling out of favor is being very aggressive in treating fibroids and if they're there, they may not even need to be treated (most don't need to be) and as many as 70% of women will have them by the time they get to my age. For all we know, being low estrogen has shrunken them anyway (we can hope!) and this may be God/the universe's way of helping us out.

[LaReine]

Bright red spotting I count, pink/brown I do not


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[squigglepink]

Now that is a fact - for some reason in the UK they are really miserly with the fertility treatments and people who would be given assistance in US or Oz or any other country in Europe are left totally hanging, it's really frustrating. WE used to be able to get medication for our Brits in Spain but someone told me they couldn't get it the other day so now I'm no longer sure that's doable. :/

I wouldn't even worry about the fibroids. Something that actually IS falling out of favor is being very aggressive in treating fibroids and if they're there, they may not even need to be treated (most don't need to be) and as many as 70% of women will have them by the time they get to my age. For all we know, being low estrogen has shrunken them anyway (we can hope!) and this may be God/the universe's way of helping us out.

Ok good ill let that ship sail then.. :)

I might do a last last last doctor visit and ask for help, i.e clomid etc.. Will see how this cycle goes and how much luck we will have ttc whilst camping!! Happy days!

[Pink rose]

Hi squiggle pink in the U.K. You can get 2 months of clomid from the oxford pharmacy online and your gp doesn't need to know about it. You just fill out a questionnaire with all your details and they post it to you. I think it's cots around £50 maybe you could look into it.

[squigglepink]

Thanks, is it legit?! Id be so worried im taking something dodgy! ill look in to that, thank you x

[Pink rose]

No it's legit 100%. Quite a few ladies on this site got their clomid from the oxford pharmacy. I was prescribed clomid before by my gp and it was exactly the same packaging & tablets. I was also a bit worried about it but I can assure you it's the real thing. x

[squigglepink]

i dont get it though - so an online place can just post you some? I mean thats awesome but where's the loop hole? Everyone in the medical trade wont give it to me!!! Im going onto that pharmacy now - which one do i go for - the one without the 2x progesterone??

https://www.oxfordonlinepharmacy.co.uk/products/Clomid

[Pink rose]

I just got clomid on its own. All I had to do was fill in a medical questionnaire which goes to their online doctor and you pay for the consultation which is the doctor looking over the questionnaire and they will email you if they have any questions. The private clomid is then posted out to you. I couldn't believe I got it. No loop holes or anything!

[squigglepink]

Omg pink rose where have you been the last 7 months lol....
So they only give you the 2 cycles and that's it? Also.. Do you have to fib a bit in the questionare? Sorry I don't know the questions but I'm assuming they want to know our need for Clomid. Mind you they must know we can't get it from our GP [emoji1]

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[squigglepink]

Oh, and also, how long did it take for yours to arrive after you ordered?

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[Pink rose]

They only ask your name, date of birth, how many children you have etc not to much information. They ask your gps name and you can tick a box if you don't want them to contact your gp, I didn't want them to contact mine. The whole process takes over a week and they do only give you 2 months worth of clomid. You should fill the questionnaire in and get some clomid for 2 months it is better than nothing.
I'm deciding weather I should split the pills in 2 and take 25mg instead of 50mg and that Way I would have 4 cycles of clomid instead of 2. Atomic has said it's my call and I just don't know what to do for the best. X

[squigglepink]

They only ask your name, date of birth, how many children you have etc not to much information. They ask your gps name and you can tick a box if you don't want them to contact your gp, I didn't want them to contact mine. The whole process takes over a week and they do only give you 2 months worth of clomid. You should fill the questionnaire in and get some clomid for 2 months it is better than nothing.
I'm deciding weather I should split the pills in 2 and take 25mg instead of 50mg and that Way I would have 4 cycles of clomid instead of 2. Atomic has said it's my call and I just don't know what to do for the best. XHmmmm. That is a good question. But if you lower the dose do you have a less chance of it working? I don't know enough to comment but would love to know this also. Have you got a new thread on here about it so I can follow?

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[XXforhubby]

To answer Pink Rose's question, it depends. Do you ovulate regularly on your own? Do you have a luteal Phase less than 8-10 days? Do you have PCOS (not just trouble losing weight, oily skin, or cycles 30-40 days in length, I'm talking officially being diagnosed with cysts on your ovaries!)? If so, you may need to be on 50mg or more. If you answer no to the majority of these questions, it is perfectly reasonable to start out with 25mg. If you answered no to the majority of these questions, I would NOT take more than 50mg without a doctor's recommendation! I would also only take Clomid on days 3-7 or 5-9. Not earlier! Also know that Clomid will probably change your O date if you ovulate regularly on your own. Opks may NOT work for you.

If you are taking Clomid without a doctor's supervision, I would follow the above recommendation. Definitely start a new thread for Atomic to see, if you have questions.

Good luck to you!


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[emoji178]Baby Girl [emoji254]EDD 9/30/2017 [emoji178]

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[Pink rose]

Hi xx thanks for answering my questions. I ovulate regularly on my own 28 29 day cycle, I'm very thanks n and petite don't have trouble loosing weight don't want to or need to loose any more, at time I get spots and my skin can be a bit oily, my luteal phrase is 12 - 14 days.
I for prescribed clomid by a private doctor I said I ovulated late etc and paid for it, I had some left but it went out of date so I had to order more on the online pharmacy. I'm not afraid of taking 50 mg because I had that does previously prescribed by a doctor although I wanted it for swaying.
Clomid did make me ovulate earlier the last time I took it.
Xx for hubby I was also on holiday 10 days at the beginning of the month I ate twice a day but did go over on totals, alcohol, Coke Zero but no exercise, it has made me a bit nervous so I'm trying to be strict. I was going to hold off a month I'm so stressed wanting my sway to work I feel so anxious and don't know what to do for the best any advice appreciated.x
Squiggle pink did you order any clomid?

[hopetoswaypink]

I only took 3 days of 25mg this month, I stopped due to bloating as I was on holiday. Even with that low dose my opks were all over the place and I had days of ovulatory symptoms! I am increasing the dose next month though. Got mine from Oxford online pharmacy too

[hopetoswaypink]

Hi, ok update:
He did internal US and lining is thin and regular - and according to Gynae pretty much on par with that of one who is menstruating/end of. He found no trace of any fibroids. He pointed out follicles on the right ovary but battled to get a clear pic of left ovary but said all ok and nothing sinister going on. He cannot explain the spotting/irregular bleeding but mentioned it could be something to do with my ovulation. I told him id had bloods and the results indicated my progesterone levels meant i had ovulated and he said that is an old way of detecting ovulation and it doesnt always mean that we have infact ovulated (Great!)

His only solution for my cycle/irregularity - were hormones/contraception but, as he stated, not helpful if im trying to conceive. He wont refer me to a fertility specialist as we have not been actively trying for 2 years. And it was a categorical NO for clomid (thought id take a chance :)
He recommended (due to being 40) chucking the OPK's and regular BD once/twice per week. Healthy diet, exercise and Folic Acid.

Im going to however, use OPK's (just because i have them) and also because of the bleeding/spotting ive had this cycle and im perplexed as to what is going on. Currently CD10 and as per the US - menstruating (still/again). (remember i started off spotting then full flow then stopped then spotted then full flow again) So that puts me where i am today and i dont know when this current bleed will end. So, once it does i think we will do the E4d and i will just keep a tab on whats going on by doing the OPK's.

And dare i mention the word Vitex?? :bigsmile:

I'm in the uk too but have not experienced this poor treatment! A 2 year wait age 40 is ridiculous! I have the clomid from the online pharmacy too!

[XXforhubby]

Hi xx thanks for answering my questions. I ovulate regularly on my own 28 29 day cycle, I'm very thanks n and petite don't have trouble loosing weight don't want to or need to loose any more, at time I get spots and my skin can be a bit oily, my luteal phrase is 12 - 14 days.
I for prescribed clomid by a private doctor I said I ovulated late etc and paid for it, I had some left but it went out of date so I had to order more on the online pharmacy. I'm not afraid of taking 50 mg because I had that does previously prescribed by a doctor although I wanted it for swaying.
Clomid did make me ovulate earlier the last time I took it.
Xx for hubby I was also on holiday 10 days at the beginning of the month I ate twice a day but did go over on totals, alcohol, Coke Zero but no exercise, it has made me a bit nervous so I'm trying to be strict. I was going to hold off a month I'm so stressed wanting my sway to work I feel so anxious and don't know what to do for the best any advice appreciated.x
Squiggle pink did you order any clomid?

Well there probably is never going to be the perfect month [emoji6]. If you're worried about things then take a month off. The thing is though, you don't know exactly how long it will take you to conceive. It's up to you really. If you can't make a decision then flip a coin and do what it says. I did that a cycle or two leading up to my BFP.


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[emoji178]Baby Girl [emoji254]EDD 9/30/2017 [emoji178]

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[XXforhubby]

Please take the Clomid as it's supposed to be taken. Take it days 3-7 or 5-9. Stopping it doesn't hurt but won't help any. It will mess with opks and effect your ovulation because that's what it is supposed to do! Try taking it a night before bed to help with symptoms.


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[emoji178]Baby Girl [emoji254]EDD 9/30/2017 [emoji178]

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[atomic sagebrush]

Hmmmm. That is a good question. But if you lower the dose do you have a less chance of it working? I don't know enough to comment but would love to know this also. Have you got a new thread on here about it so I can follow?

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The unsatisfying answer is that we don't know if it works as good for swaying or not. It may, it may not, it may for some people and not for others. What I do know (and I cannot stress this strongly enough) is that no one should EVER take more than 50 mg without a doctor's advice (and even sometimes WITH a doctor's advice, it's a bad idea and some docs are not very responsible with it)

The ONLY reason why I tolerate you guys doing Clomid on your own is so I can help you do that safely, since the last thing we need is people doing Clomid without any input from anyone. But please be sure you're doing it safely - take for the full 5 days, CD 3-7, 4-8 or 5-9 only, please don't stop and start it, try every month you have taken it, do not start it in the middle of the cycle, only take it after you have had a menstrual bleed. And no more than 50 mg ladies!!

[squigglepink]

Hi xx thanks for answering my questions. I ovulate regularly on my own 28 29 day cycle, I'm very thanks n and petite don't have trouble loosing weight don't want to or need to loose any more, at time I get spots and my skin can be a bit oily, my luteal phrase is 12 - 14 days.
I for prescribed clomid by a private doctor I said I ovulated late etc and paid for it, I had some left but it went out of date so I had to order more on the online pharmacy. I'm not afraid of taking 50 mg because I had that does previously prescribed by a doctor although I wanted it for swaying.
Clomid did make me ovulate earlier the last time I took it.
Xx for hubby I was also on holiday 10 days at the beginning of the month I ate twice a day but did go over on totals, alcohol, Coke Zero but no exercise, it has made me a bit nervous so I'm trying to be strict. I was going to hold off a month I'm so stressed wanting my sway to work I feel so anxious and don't know what to do for the best any advice appreciated.x
Squiggle pink did you order any clomid?

Hi, no i have not ordered yet. Im in two minds.
I received feedback from my last gynae visit and in it he writes: "I am reassured by the findings of her regular thin endometrium and suspect that her irregular cycles are probably anovulatory related as opposed to an endometrial pathology"... So, this leans me toward taking clomid?! But on the other hand im a bit concerned because even after all my Doctor and Gynae visits, ultra sounds, hysteroscopy and irregular cycles, spotting on and off for about a year and ttc for 10 months - no one has suggested clomid or any type of fertility assistance.. so i would just be doing it for swaying which im worried about doing without a doctor even knowing as i read you should be monitored? - how serious is that even? Slightly worried to be messing about with clomid/cycles when im already all over the place!! :worry:

[squigglepink]

Ok, so ive just read Atomic's thread on Clomid and i realise that im in the category of 'dont take' based on my age (40) and that im possibly low in estogen with all my spotting and irregular bleeding etc: " Clomid will not work for women who have low levels of estrogen or high levels of FSH, so if you are in your late 30's-40's and anovulatory because of age, Clomid is not going to help you to ovulate. Your doctor will have to give you injectible drugs instead."

This is fine by me . Makes sense for me to just carry on carrying on al-natural! :)

[atomic sagebrush]

Ok, so ive just read Atomic's thread on Clomid and i realise that im in the category of 'dont take' based on my age (40) and that im possibly low in estogen with all my spotting and irregular bleeding etc: " Clomid will not work for women who have low levels of estrogen or high levels of FSH, so if you are in your late 30's-40's and anovulatory because of age, Clomid is not going to help you to ovulate. Your doctor will have to give you injectible drugs instead."

This is fine by me . Makes sense for me to just carry on carrying on al-natural! :)

Femara would be better for you.

While I do still stand by this, I have had several people in the meantime who insisted upon taking the Clomid, were given it by their doctors, and most of them did still conceive on that. So it is a case of the warnings possibly not always being as applicable as we originally thought.

[squigglepink]

Ok :)
Is the monitoring just for checking that it is in fact working on those that it is intended for? Will try this cycle without, i have a Doc appointment set up in September and will have to mention Femara. :rolleyes: Alternatively i have the online pharmacy to fall back on (clomid). I had a day of spotting and then AF again this month.. Is this a sign of low progesterone rather? I have on and off spotting in my cycles now.. No one in the medical industry here seems too concerned as nothing sinister on the scans.. so i dunno

[atomic sagebrush]

Ok :)
Is the monitoring just for checking that it is in fact working on those that it is intended for? Will try this cycle without, i have a Doc appointment set up in September and will have to mention Femara. :rolleyes: Alternatively i have the online pharmacy to fall back on (clomid). I had a day of spotting and then AF again this month.. Is this a sign of low progesterone rather? I have on and off spotting in my cycles now.. No one in the medical industry here seems too concerned as nothing sinister on the scans.. so i dunno

No. The monitoring is making sure that no one TTC with 7 eggs ready to pop. Meant to prevent higher order multiples.

BUT. In the interest of full disclosure, I must point out that we have had tons of people conceive without monitoring and none so far have gotten more than twins (matter of fact, virtually all of our triplets were natural conceptions) and the ONLY case of triplets we got on Clomid was in a woman who was being monitored!! Her doctor told her he saw one and only one follicle, she BD, and ended up conceiving 3 non-identical triplets (meaning at least 3 eggs were released). So it is evident to me that it is all too easy for doctors to miss follicles with monitoring and in fact makes me question the principle of monitoring all together to be honest.