the calcium conundrum - CONTROVERSIAL

[OneLastDream]

What would you say is the most important thing in the diet to eat?

[lindi]

Dairy is a worse way to get calcium than leafy green vegetables. But those high calcium/magnesium supplements given other studies seemed to sway pink? Perhaps there is a protein/fat connection. I get where you're going with Trivers Willard, but I still think there is chemistry you can change and it's not all about JUST starving nutrients?

[skrimpy]

ok I'm de-lurking because this is very interesting :) I also conceived my boys with a really high dairy diet and DD1 while eating virtually no dairy. However the baby I'm pg with now is totally unexpected DD2 and I was also eating a lot of dairy and very well-nourished... anyways...

I find this really interesting to think about and wonder about. But from a historical perspective, when humans did start keeping dairy animals it didn't matter that they had no refrigeration. Cheese and fermented dairy were ways to preserve dairy so it could be eaten longer. Plus a cow can be milked every day several months of the year. Just because yogurt is relatively new to our culture it doesn't mean it's "new" everywhere - yogurt and kefir are actually old methods of preserving milk just like cheese is, and have been around in other cultures for a long time.

Anyways, I like healthy babies so even if we do sway again (we will sway blue) I will continue to use full-fat dairy. It's the easiest protein/fat source for me to get and protein and fat = healthy babies :)

Would love to see more info on this as it's discussed further :D

[nuthinbutpink]

Hi Skrimpy.

Maybe it depends where you get calcium from- dairy is just one source. And what does dairy have and do for the body? Mamer's running stuff brought me to this article about Vitamin D and Tetosterone levels-

Vitamin D - a Secret Testosterone Booster? Study Finds Potent Hormonal Benefits

Published by Brian Willett - Featured Contributor on Associated Content in Health & Wellness



Many matters surrounding the quest for lean mass gain or body fat loss can be quite difficult to understand. Does nutrient timing really matter? How much does the thermic effect of food actually influence weight loss?

Is the Glycemic Index (GI) completely irrelevant? These questions and many others plague the athletic endeavors of even the most intelligent, well-informed members of the fitness community. Thankfully, though, not everything is as complicated as those matters. One established fact is that testosterone is definitely a good thing when looking to increase muscle size and strength. The tricky part, though, is how to maximize one's levels of testosterone in a safe and legal manner.

And while there are many expensive products on the market that claim to boost testosterone, recent research has uncovered a powerful new supplement that is both inexpensive and effective. If that were not enough, the supplement is safe as well. The most surprising part - it may already be in your cabinet. So what is this mysterious supplement? Vitamin D.

Sound too good to be true? It's not. New research from the journal Clinical Endocrinology found that, in their sample of nearly 2300 men, there was a significant positive correlation between Vitamin D levels and testosterone levels. But it wasn't just that these men had more testosterone in their bodies - the group that had the highest levels of Vitamin D had more free, or biologically active, testosterone. This means the hormone could be used by the body for muscle building.

In addition, higher levels of Vitamin D prompted lower concentrations of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). This is important because SHBG binds to testosterone and makes it biologically inactive - in other words, not useful for mass gain (1).

While this study, and the realization that Vitamin D directly influenced testosterone, is new, the connection has been demonstrated in prior research. While the scientists did not necessarily understand the causation, a 1938 study found that athletic performance was enhanced with UV exposure. In fact, the rate of progression the UV-exposed group was 7.4 percent, compared to the 1.7 percent progression of the control group (2). This is because Vitamin D, also known as the "sunshine vitamin," is present in sunlight and ultra-violet rays.

However, most people, especially in the northwest, do not get enough Vitamin D due to low levels of sunlight. Because of this, strong supplementation of Vitamin D would be needed to reap the testosterone-boosting rewards. Thankfully, Vitamin D supplements are inexpensive and readily available.

So, perhaps our source of calcium is what matters and the Vitamin D content is upping everyone's testosterone levels without even knowing it?

[lindi]

That a great point nuthinbutpink. Many dairy sources include extra vit d for the calcium absorbtion and another reason to avoid dairy.

[skrimpy]

Hmm, this is interesting... I conceived two of my boys while drinking Vit D fortified milk and living in the Southeast. I conceived my third boy while drinking milk from a local dairy - I think it was fortified but not sure... and just after moving to northern MI. I conceived this baby, a DD, while living here in northern MI and drinking milk that is *NOT* fortified (it's raw milk from an Amish dairy). But we did take Vit. D supplements all last winter... had stopped somewhat by the summer when the babe was conceived, though. DH, though, has never been a big milk drinker, so he wasn't getting a lot of D from fortified milk before. He did take the Vit D supplement for awhile, but found it caused his arthritis to flare up, so he'd stopped quite awhile before we conceived our current pg.

It's interesting. My Vit D titers were pretty good last winter but I didn't have them tested in the summer before this baby was conceived.

[atomic sagebrush]

ok I'm de-lurking because this is very interesting :) I also conceived my boys with a really high dairy diet and DD1 while eating virtually no dairy. However the baby I'm pg with now is totally unexpected DD2 and I was also eating a lot of dairy and very well-nourished... anyways...

I find this really interesting to think about and wonder about. But from a historical perspective, when humans did start keeping dairy animals it didn't matter that they had no refrigeration. Cheese and fermented dairy were ways to preserve dairy so it could be eaten longer. Plus a cow can be milked every day several months of the year. Just because yogurt is relatively new to our culture it doesn't mean it's "new" everywhere - yogurt and kefir are actually old methods of preserving milk just like cheese is, and have been around in other cultures for a long time.

Anyways, I like healthy babies so even if we do sway again (we will sway blue) I will continue to use full-fat dairy. It's the easiest protein/fat source for me to get and protein and fat = healthy babies :)

Would love to see more info on this as it's discussed further :D

I agree about cheese, yogurt, kefir, etc (not trying to seem ethnocentric there at all). My point is, there is very little difference in gender ratio in cultures who ate these foods and cultures who didn't. IF calcium were a magic bullet, as in, eat X milligrams of calcium and you WILL get a baby girl, cultures who ate a high-dairy diet seem like they should have more daughters, even if it's only by a percentage point or two. Instead, it's the other way around and cultures who DON'T traditionally eat a lot of dairy actually have more daughters than those cultures that do. Does not compute.

[atomic sagebrush]

Hmm, this is interesting... I conceived two of my boys while drinking Vit D fortified milk and living in the Southeast. I conceived my third boy while drinking milk from a local dairy - I think it was fortified but not sure... and just after moving to northern MI. I conceived this baby, a DD, while living here in northern MI and drinking milk that is *NOT* fortified (it's raw milk from an Amish dairy). But we did take Vit. D supplements all last winter... had stopped somewhat by the summer when the babe was conceived, though. DH, though, has never been a big milk drinker, so he wasn't getting a lot of D from fortified milk before. He did take the Vit D supplement for awhile, but found it caused his arthritis to flare up, so he'd stopped quite awhile before we conceived our current pg.

It's interesting. My Vit D titers were pretty good last winter but I didn't have them tested in the summer before this baby was conceived.

That's very interesting Skrimpy - does your husband have RA? Men with RA are more likely than the general population to carry a gene known as HLA-B15 that has been correlated with lower testosterone levels. http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/human_biology/v073/73.2astolfi.html (dry reading there but just so you know I'm not pulling that data out of my rear end)

One thing we have to keep in mind when analyzing any one factor (calcium intake, testosterone, etc) is that there are two parties both bringing dozens if not hundreds of factors to the table, some of which we will never even be aware of.

[skrimpy]

That's very interesting Skrimpy - does your husband have RA? Men with RA are more likely than the general population to carry a gene known as HLA-B15 that has been correlated with lower testosterone levels. http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/human_biology/v073/73.2astolfi.html (dry reading there but just so you know I'm not pulling that data out of my rear end)

One thing we have to keep in mind when analyzing any one factor (calcium intake, testosterone, etc) is that there are two parties both bringing dozens if not hundreds of factors to the table, some of which we will never even be aware of.

I agree - there is so much to go on. Outside of PGD I have to just trust that in the end it's up to God. But I like knowing I can at least try to sway the odds :p I am having a lot of GD with getting another DD (really hard time with my mom growing up... girls are scary :/ ) Since we want a big family I'd like to sway blue next time... as least know I've tried :)

DH has osteoarthritis. We've never had his testosterone levels checked but judging by his very, very healthy sex drive I would say it's OK :p The only big changes in DH's diet since we conceived a son is a big drop in carbohydrates to work on weight loss... maybe that influenced for a DD this time, but like you said, there are so many variables.

I should mention that when I conceived DD1, I was eating very little dairy and had a mostly vegetarian diet. I did drink soymilk at that time, which was probably fortified with calcium and vit. D. I conceived her while in college in the sunny southwest so my vit. D levels were probably good... my overall nutrition was really poor compared to what it was with the boys and this DD2 though. I have no idea what kind of a diet her bio-dad was eating. I could probably drive myself crazy with all the anecdotal factors and such but I wanted to mention for the calcium/vit D discussion in this thread.

[lindi]

apparently calcium helps produce progesterone, which helps oppose excess estrogen. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1158122/ (would love to read the whole study) all swaying girl factors. Dairy adds vit d to the equation and messes this up. In fact, I just read cheese decreases progesterone production.
Atomic0 maybe it was the DAIRY not the calcium that meddled with your girtl sway?

[lindi]

From wikipedia:
Acrosome reaction: During fertilization, a sperm must first fuse with and then penetrate the female egg in order to fertilize it. Fusing to the egg usually causes little problem, whereas penetrating through the egg's hard shell can present more of a problem to the sperm. Therefore sperm cells go through a process known as the acrosome reaction which is the reaction that occurs in the acrosome of the sperm as it approaches the egg. The acrosome is a cap-like structure over the anterior half of the sperm's head.
As the sperm approaches the zona pellucida of the egg, which is necessary for initiating the acrosome reaction, the membrane surrounding the acrosome fuses with the plasma membrane of the sperm, exposing the contents of the acrosome. The contents include surface antigens and numerous enzymes which are responsible for breaking through the egg's tough coating and allowing fertilization to occur.

so with that in mind this is from some ion research website:

"Progesterone elicits a rapid, transient calcium influx in sperm that is a prerequisite for the progesterone-induced acrosome reaction."

Maybe there is something about Y sperm being able to permeate an egg better given a calcium/progesterone deficiency? I thought progesterone was all about supporting pregnancy, but if its effects are on the process of sperm meeting egg this is very interesting, since we know high progesterone sways girl, calcium helps increase progesterone, and calcium is needed to charge sperm to permeate an egg. Its also needed FROM the egg- since the Zona Pellucida is responsible for initiating the acrosome reaction. Evidnce that calcium primes an egg for a certain KIND of sperm somehow?

[nuthinbutpink]

apparently calcium helps produce progesterone, which helps oppose excess estrogen. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1158122/ (would love to read the whole study) all swaying girl factors. Dairy adds vit d to the equation and messes this up. In fact, I just read cheese decreases progesterone production.
Atomic0 maybe it was the DAIRY not the calcium that meddled with your girtl sway?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1158122/pdf/biochemj00380-0107.pdf

[lindi]

you rock!

[lindi]

This was interesting from the article: Complete omission of Mg2+ also suppressed
progesterone production significantly (P <0.01)
(Table 2). However, the effects of Ca2+ omission
could not be superseded by the addition of physiological
concentrations of Mg2+. Maximal progesterone
production required the presence of both
bivalent cations.

calcium + magnesium needed for progesterone within ovary. Progesterone is conversely needed for the sperm to be charged ionically (calcium again) to fertilize the egg. Progesterone sways girl, but does anybody know HOW progesterone sways?

[nuthinbutpink]

I am not aware of progesterone swaying pink. An additional source of progesterone is milk products. They contain much progesterone because on dairy farms cows are milked during pregnancy, when the progesterone content of the milk is high. After consumption of milk products the level of bioavailable progesterone goes up. That brings you back to Vitamin D though and an increase in testosterone.

[lindi]

except if you consume raw plain milk from a grass-fed cow? Thats what I give my son- it had no added vit d. I read on the *other* site that progesterone sways girl?

[nuthinbutpink]

except if you consume raw plain milk from a grass-fed cow? Thats what I give my son- it had no added vit d. I read on the *other* site that progesterone sways girl?

I cannot find anything scientific to back that claim up. The funny thing is between age 35 and 50, there is a 35% drop in estrogen, and a 75% reduction in progesterone occurring simultaneously. I do know that it is a fact that "older" women have more girls, so it would seem that the opposite would be the case.

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes, the "other site" claims high estrogen/high testosterone sways blue, high prog. sways pink. I've read pretty compelling evidence for testosterone, some less compelling evidence for estrogen, and very little evidence for progesterone. The interesting thing is that they're all manufactured from the same materials in your body so to me it seems more likely that your body is "deciding" how much of them to make based on cues from the environment, rather than that you're making your body have higher or lower levels. (hope that makes sense???)

[atomic sagebrush]

Anyway, the second part of this essay is posted here http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?642-the-calcium-conundrum-part-2

[lindi]

Ok, haven't read the rest of your essay- But if estrogen creates CM, that sways pink. So that makes sense with high estrogen. testosterone makes sense too. progesterone helps oppose excess estrogen- that was the basis of me being prescribed progesterone birth control pills to "balance" my unbalanced hormones- the basis of why BCPs work for PCOS. If you could increase progesterone, it would help oppose estrogen, lowering CM which would sway girl.

Nuthinbutpink- hmm...but maybe those drops in prog and estrogen don't matter with the simultaneous drop in testosterone?

I find it interesting that calcium produces progesterone, and the high calcium diet was shown in studies to sway girl. Those women MUST have had higher progesterone than before the diet then, right?

This is all so complicated! The best evidence is about the testosterone, right? I am making this my focus right now since it takes the longest to change anyways!

[Viene]

If you could increase progesterone, it would help oppose estrogen, lowering CM which would sway girl.


As far as I am aware, this is a big reason. Progesterone dries CM or makes what is there creamy and thicker which makes it an environment that the girl sperm are more likely to survive and effectively swim through. My thought is that the reason is sways is mainly because of the effect progesterone has on CM and because estrogen and testosterone are more hand in hand hormones and can convert whereas estrogen and progesterone are inversely related.

[lindi]

As far as I am aware, this is a big reason. Progesterone dries CM or makes what is there creamy and thicker which makes it an environment that the girl sperm are more likely to survive and effectively swim through. My thought is that the reason is sways is mainly because of the effect progesterone has on CM and because estrogen and testosterone are more hand in hand hormones and can convert whereas estrogen and progesterone are inversely related.

Great. Do you have any thoughts on all of that ion stuff at the level of sperm meeting the egg? I know ions are big thing potentially for swaying, and it was interesting that calcium and progesterone are needed for the ionic reactions necessary for egg and sperm to fuse. Maybe extra calcium/progesterone help the x sperms permeate the egg faster somehow? Is this even possible?

I found this summary of a study that makes me think the place sperm wait and mature in a woman's body can influence x sperm over y if the woman's body would have the right chemical make-up to effect the sialic acid on the sperm- or to attract one kind of sperm over another for maturation- the sialic acid is what differs on the surface of x and y sperm, (I think this is how sperm are sorted, by like, microsort, right?) making one charged negatively and one charged positively:

After insemination in mammals, sperm move to a storage reservoir in the oviduct and bind to the epithelial cells. This appears to be critical for sperm maturation to achieve fertilization. The adhesion of sperm to these cells may be mediated by sialic acid-containing sugars on proteins (glycoproteins). These experiments determine whether or not the sialic acid that binds sperm, found in the lower oviduct, has functional importance in sperm adhesion and in forming the reservoir. To accomplish this aim, oviducts from slaughtered female pigs were extracted. In these experiments, neuraminidase was used to remove the sialic acid residues from the oviductal epithelial cells to see if sperm still bind to the oviduct. The results have shown lower sperm-binding, after removal of sialic acid. Cells incubated with neuraminidase reduced sperm binding by 52% of sperm bound compared to the control without neuraminidase. After studying this component of sperm storage we found that sialic acid has a role in the sperm binding to the oviduct. These findings will contribute to increased knowledge about how this sugar can bind cells and will help to explain how the oviduct can store sperm to promote fertilization.

and also this:
A Ca2+-dependent sialic acid-binding protein (SABP) of
human endometrium, which specifically bound to human
sperm head plasma membrane in vitro, was found to
increase the percentage motility and acrosome-reacted
pattern of uncapacitated spermatozoa. The protein was
synthesized in the endometrium and secreted into the
uterine fluid. This intra-uterine factor, which is apparently
advantageous in vitro in inducing human sperm capacitation,
may play a significant role in promoting the postrelease
maturation of ejaculated spermatozoa by enhancing
45Ca uptake into spermatozoa by a pathway which is
insensitive to calcium-channel blockers. However, the 45Ca
uptake could be enhanced on exposure to the divalent
cation ionophore A23187 and inhibited in the presence of
the calmodulin inhibitor trifluoperazine. The SABP also
induces an increase in intracellular Ca2' in spermatozoa,
as seen by FURA-2 AM studies. Furthermore, overlay
studies show human SABP to be a Ca2+-binding protein.
The data presented here suggest that SABP induces invitro
sperm capacitation and the subsequent acrosome
reaction by increasing intracellular Ca2+ concentration.
Key words: acrosome reaction/calcium/human spermatozoa/

Maybe calcium helps specifically in the uterine fluids in strengthening sperm and maturing x sperm even more than y sperm? The x sperm are negatively charged , attracting Ca2+ better than y sperm, giving them a better shot at an added boost once inside the uterus?

[atomic sagebrush]

Ok, haven't read the rest of your essay- But if estrogen creates CM, that sways pink. So that makes sense with high estrogen. testosterone makes sense too. progesterone helps oppose excess estrogen- that was the basis of me being prescribed progesterone birth control pills to "balance" my unbalanced hormones- the basis of why BCPs work for PCOS. If you could increase progesterone, it would help oppose estrogen, lowering CM which would sway girl.

Nuthinbutpink- hmm...but maybe those drops in prog and estrogen don't matter with the simultaneous drop in testosterone?

I find it interesting that calcium produces progesterone, and the high calcium diet was shown in studies to sway girl. Those women MUST have had higher progesterone than before the diet then, right?

This is all so complicated! The best evidence is about the testosterone, right? I am making this my focus right now since it takes the longest to change anyways!

The good news is, even though it IS complicated we know what to do, even if we DON'T fully understand the mechanisms involved. We know that lowering testosterone is possible through a lower protein diet and weight loss, and we know we can dry up CM with antihistamines, and we know that lower sperm count sways pink and what things we can do to achieve that. So even though we don't have all the answers as to what hormone/mineral sways and why and how, we can still do a lot towards achieving our DG just by lowering testosterone, drying up CM, and lowering sperm count.

[lindi]

Well, for me, I don't have much weight to lose, and I am already a vegetarian, and I have a history of high testosterone, so I'm going to do all I can to lower testosterone through herbs, diet modifications, lavender and tea tree oil, trips to the spa to relax, but I know that's not the quickest or easiest thing to do- and DH and I are so exhausted right now anyways his sperm count is probably very low these days :(, so I'm hanging a LOT of additional hope on changing my minerals since those calcium studies seem convincing to me...I have been inspired to really try to believe in calcium... the more I look into it, the more I think calcium does have some effect. I know we are supposed to stay ultra low nutrient, but I do think I'm going to stick with high calcium thing.

[atomic sagebrush]

That sounds like an excellent plan!! Do keep the antihistamines in the back of your mind, I think they can help. I wish you the very best.

[Viene]

Wow, thanks for sharing that info, Lindi! You are really making me think. Hard. I like that though. :) Maybe you're right. Maybe that is the precise reason where the calcium and magnesium come to play. It makes sense and it does link the mineral and hormone theory together.

I still don't think there is a magic number of mg of the specific minerals, but rather the ratio of the Ca + Mg/K + Na as well as the effect on our hormones, calorie, nutrient and fat intakes.

[Zivic-Bubac]

I'm sure you are all familiar with Dutch study. This is the link to the abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21051285) I coudln't find the full text, probably some of you will. The goal was to conceive girl ( so blue swayers can try for opposite) Desirable timing was "last intercourse was at least 3 days before ovulation"
There were 135 pregnancies that led to 109 live births.
Correct diet and correct timing produced 81 % of girls (26 girls, 6 boys).
Study showed direct connection between Ca blood levels and conception of girls.
I conceived my girls when I was practically living on dairy. I know Atomic says she conceived her boys while she was eating dairy, but the 2 of us are rather small sample LOL!
Calcium itself has very high pH, but then again milk is acidifying.
Maybe it is more about whole lifestyle and other aspects of diet, not just Ca/Mg and Na/K. I mean if you are eating other boy friendly food and have well balanced nutrition then Ca rich products are just a bonus et vice versa? Yoghurt for example is a great source of Potassium, but I've decreased my intake to 1-2 dl every other day because I was drinking it daily at least 2dl when I conceived my girls.
I remember one pink swayer from IG who said her CM pH started to raise because of Ca supplements. So it's really complex when it comes to dairy.....
Lindi's post is making things clearer :agree:

I apologize for my grammar mistakes.

[Zivic-Bubac]

Wow, thanks for sharing that info, Lindi! You are really making me think. Hard. I like that though. :) Maybe you're right. Maybe that is the precise reason where the calcium and magnesium come to play. It makes sense and it does link the mineral and hormone theory together.

I still don't think there is a magic number of mg of the specific minerals, but rather the ratio of the Ca + Mg/K + Na as well as the effect on our hormones, calorie, nutrient and fat intakes.

Exactly! :agree:

[Zivic-Bubac]

Ooops, I just saw Atomic's post about Dutch study on How we got our boys thread :oops:
I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be smart a$$.
I'm still not convinced about high Calcium intake due to my own experience, IDK....

[atomic sagebrush]

No, not at all! I would never fault anyone for wanting to include minerals as part of their sway. And I totally agree, if you conceived your girls eating a lot of dairy then try something new and see what happens. I personally think that eating just dairy probably DOES sway pink because it's still a limited and restricted diet (did you read the part 2 of this essay?) and if the calcium comes into play, even better.

I just don't want people to rely totally on minerals for swaying because I have seen a lot of people who don't do anything other than take supplements and then wonder why their sways didn't work.

The #1 problem I have with the French Diet is that 75% of all the women on planet Earth (and more than that in Africa and Asia) are lactose intolerant and cannot eat dairy at all. Yet they still conceived both boys and girls in 50-50 ratio. In fact, countries that eat the most dairy, such as the Scandinavian countries, actually have MORE boys than countries that eat no dairy at all.

[Freya]

I read somewhere that calcium and potassium regulate the CM consistency in conjunction with estrogen, progesterone and pH. I found some nice articles on proteins called mucins that were interesting reading (one is here: article (http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/8/1964.full)). I think all evidence points in one direction, to be honest, but it's possible that dietary intake of calcium might not play a great part if there is lots of estrogen in your system, for instance.

[atomic sagebrush]

Thank you for sharing! Interesting info!

[atomic sagebrush]

For some reason the link to the second part of this essay wasn't in the first part...

http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?642-the-calcium-conundrum-part-2&highlight=calcium+conundrum+part

[Glittergirl]

I think I conceived my boys by not taking in calcium. the only calcium I got was from green leafy vegetables, a few servings of cheese a week, and yogurt maybe once a week. That's it. I haven't drank milk in probably 10 years and I just don't like dairy at all! If I had cerreal, it was rice milk. Now that I'm keeping track of my calcium I realize how much dairy and supps I have to consume just to be within normal limits and avoid osteoparosis ( my mom has early signs of it). So maybe I should do the opposite of what I did? I still can't get myself to drink milk but I'm drinking kefir, eating yogurt and cheese. So for me I think I do have to take calcium to help my pink sway.

[shouldihope?]

I have to chime in and say that I love me some dairy! I have 3 boys so now I am wondering since I am ttc a girl what that means for me. I have changed to rice milk and actually cut back on dairy other than low fat string cheese and yogurt not sure if I should cut back more? I guess I need to thow out the calcium support that I bought because they have vit d in them. Did not see any without it. Not sure what to do about that either?

[atomic sagebrush]

I think I conceived my boys by not taking in calcium. the only calcium I got was from green leafy vegetables, a few servings of cheese a week, and yogurt maybe once a week. That's it. I haven't drank milk in probably 10 years and I just don't like dairy at all! If I had cerreal, it was rice milk. Now that I'm keeping track of my calcium I realize how much dairy and supps I have to consume just to be within normal limits and avoid osteoparosis ( my mom has early signs of it). So maybe I should do the opposite of what I did? I still can't get myself to drink milk but I'm drinking kefir, eating yogurt and cheese. So for me I think I do have to take calcium to help my pink sway.

A lot of people have had success on the French Gender/IG diet and if you feel good about going that way then that is GREAT! I am not trying to deter anyone in any way at all and in fact I will help you however I can. I just want people to have all the info available so they can pick what works best for them.

The one thing that I DON'T want people to do is say, it's too hard to stick to the diet so I will just take calcium supplements and avoid salt. I saw several people do that on IG and I feel that is a recipe for a failed sway.

[Sunset]

This post is so interesting, but I also have to add that scandinavian food is incredibly high in salt and the main foods are red meat and potatoes along with "salty" fish and soya based sauces. So yes, while scandinavian people may consume alot of calcium they also consume alot of red meat and high amount of salt and potassium and the food is always cooked using full fat cream. I know this because I'm swedish myself and grew up in Sweden ;) scandinavian food is far from girl friendly on any level so I am not suprised swedes/scandinavians give birth to alot of boys!

[purplepoet20]

Ok so now my calcium plan is looking confusing.

BIG ??? What kind of calcium was everyone taking?
Calcium Carbonate is the most common calcium in drinks/mixed/prenatal/plain vitamins or anything with calcium in it. Suppose to sway boy. Calcium Citrate is harder to find in a vitamin by itself, I found mine at GNC. Suppose to sway girl! I decided to disolve calcium pills in water... Calcium Citrate 250mg was at a 6.5 ph and Calcium Caronate 600mg (with 500IU of D) was at a 9.8ph. Before I changed calcium I took 1,200mg a day of the Cal Caronate (since before my boys) and no other dairy and my ph was on average 8-9.8. After going to 2,000mg of Cal Citrate with no other dairy my ph is about 6.2..... My DS1 is allergic to dairy and soy (he can open the frig) so we have decided to keep them out of the house for now.

Dairy is suppose to turn acidic in the body but has a high ph. Dairy that comes from cows that were giving antibiotics or hormones are more likely to increase your boy swaying hormones. Fortified dairy should only be for swaying boy. Dairy in the form of RAW is hormones/anti/fortify free milk so it would be for a girl sway??? One list I found list all drinkable dairy as turning akaline in the body but butter, cheese, cottage cheese, custard, ice cream, and milk (boiled, cooked, dried) are acidifying???

So what is best for a girl sway???

[atomic sagebrush]

I think skim milk and fat-free yogurt is the best dairy for pink but watch the protein and sodium/potassium and don't drink too much. Organic is best and raw is great (because of the vitamin D) but not everyone can get raw milk.

Calcium citrate is often recommended for pink. I thought it was because of the pH but apparently the pH is much higher. Another girl was taking it and it made her pH skyrocket! (I WISH this was easier! :P)

The acid/alkaline stuff is so confusing and to make it worse the info is different between books and between websites.

I cannot say, until more scientific research is done, what is truly best. There are no guarantees in this unfortunately.

I can tell you that if I was swaying pink, I would eat a low protein, low calorie, low fat, low sodium, low nutrient diet (and yes, even less calcium), lose weight, and keep my blood sugar on the low side.

If I was swaying blue I would do the exact opposite of that, plus lift weights.

[purplepoet20]

I am started to think that we (DH too) will be diabetic vegans for about a month :) That should help me to loose the extra weight I need to sway girl.


Acid/Akaline info that I have found very useful is from the livingstrong website. They actually say that foods that are acidic turn akaline in the body..... having some fun I tested the ph in my meals/drinks for 4 days, urine, and cm (right before, during, and after Ov) Eating Grapefruit and Lemon Aid raised my ph so high that I thought the meter was wrong.

With my next Ov cycle I am going to eat acidifying foods from the list and see what happens... I will update in a few weeks with the results.

[wishing on a star]

I have been consuming a high dairy diet since starting the whole swaying process, on an average day i have 2/3 glasses of milk, small amount of cottage chesse on crackerbread, a yougurt drink, normal yougurt and maybe some icecream! NOt sure how but have managed to loose 18 lb in 10 weeks doing this! Just wandered if someone could tell me wether this is way too much dairy or as im loosing weight is it ok?
Apart from the dairy im sticking to chicken twice a week, cucmber and noodles and rice with the odd bit of chocolate here and there. This has been such a radical change to my diet as im a big meat eater normally and hated milk and yougurt and always ate three meals a day with my ds's.
Is there anything anyone things i should/shouldnt be doing different?
xxx

[atomic sagebrush]

I am started to think that we (DH too) will be diabetic vegans for about a month :) That should help me to loose the extra weight I need to sway girl.


Acid/Akaline info that I have found very useful is from the livingstrong website. They actually say that foods that are acidic turn akaline in the body..... having some fun I tested the ph in my meals/drinks for 4 days, urine, and cm (right before, during, and after Ov) Eating Grapefruit and Lemon Aid raised my ph so high that I thought the meter was wrong.

With my next Ov cycle I am going to eat acidifying foods from the list and see what happens... I will update in a few weeks with the results.

That is interesting about the alkalinity! Thanks for sharing!

If I was going to sway pink again, I would totally be a diabetic vegan! :agree:

[atomic sagebrush]

I have been consuming a high dairy diet since starting the whole swaying process, on an average day i have 2/3 glasses of milk, small amount of cottage chesse on crackerbread, a yougurt drink, normal yougurt and maybe some icecream! NOt sure how but have managed to loose 18 lb in 10 weeks doing this! Just wandered if someone could tell me wether this is way too much dairy or as im loosing weight is it ok?
Apart from the dairy im sticking to chicken twice a week, cucmber and noodles and rice with the odd bit of chocolate here and there. This has been such a radical change to my diet as im a big meat eater normally and hated milk and yougurt and always ate three meals a day with my ds's.
Is there anything anyone things i should/shouldnt be doing different?
xxx

No, as long as your protein, fat, and sodium are still on the low side (dairy is LOADED with those things). ARe you doing skim milk? I think skim is best.

It seems to me that it's the CHANGE that is most important for people, and your diet is def. different! Congrats on the weight loss!

[wishing on a star]

Thanks atonic, im drinking semi skimmed at the moment is that ok or should change to skimmed?
xx

[atomic sagebrush]

I would do skim milk only. Fat free on all dairy.

[zanacal]

You don't want to believe everything (if anything!) you read in this newspaper but this is interesting all the same:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2012050/The-cocktail-20-chemicals-glass-milk.html

[atomic sagebrush]

Hey guys, for anyone interested, I wrote a third part to this essay: http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?4666-the-calcium-conundrum-part-3-deconstructing-the-FGD

[mariposa]

HI atomic, just wanted to share an interesting article I found (maybe it´s already by here, but if not , here it is!):

Calcium

Calcium is a supplement most often noted for its ability to promote strong bones and teeth. However, this nutrient can have a number of other benefits, including promoting hormone production. According to a study from the December 2008 edition of "Biological Trace Element Research," four weeks of calcium supplementation can support increased testosterone levels.

Magnesium

Magnesium is an essential nutrient that aids in producing energy, activates enzymes and helps regulate the amount of certain other nutrients in your body. In addition, research published in the April 2011 edition of "Biological Trace Element Research" indicates that supplementation with magnesium can promote increased testosterone levels.



I found it here: Vitamin Supplements To Increase Testosterone | LIVESTRONG.COM (http://www.livestrong.com/article/508987-vitamin-supplements-to-increase-testosterone/)

[atomic sagebrush]

Thank you!!!

[rainbowflower]

Tamara on the other forums just posted a new calcium study not done in retrospect ... http://www.ijpcbs.com/files/03-36.pdf
my question is, why do so many studies (admittedly on rodents) find such a strong link?

I do believe calcium/potassium/sodium affect hormones in some way, perhaps blood levels of something as I've seen that suggested in a few places. Just not quite sure what/how!

[Rainbow baby]

Thanks for the study there are so many saying it sways. I am thinking of adding it and keeping to the LE diet restrictions some how ? Has anybody else done this? Maybe just in pill form! Maybe a low dose and then get my protein from Milk products oh I don't know!! Do you have to take Mag with Cal?? Or can you just take Cal tablets?

[mrs magoo]

So that study is saying sways boy right?

[meeks32]

Wow big claims. Love to hear atomic's view on this. It seems to claim calc mag sways radically girl. But then goes on to say low salt/potassium and high sodium sways girl. I thought salt was sodium???

[rainbowflower]

So that study is saying sways boy right?

no that's what the abstract says, but reading their results table and all the discussion it says it sways pink so think it must just be a typo in the abstract

[rainbowflower]

Wow big claims. Love to hear atomic's view on this. It seems to claim calc mag sways radically girl. But then goes on to say low salt/potassium and high sodium sways girl. I thought salt was sodium???
no I don't get that either.. confusing

aha - http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/what-foods-high-sodium.php
actually that still doesn't help much

[Pangea]

It looks like it has been badly translated into English. I tried to find a better translated version, I found this instead, a study by the same team on rabbits. http://jocpr.com/vol4-iss1-2012/JCPR-2012-4-1-719-725.pdf

[rainbowflower]

if only they'd test it on people, huh? ;)

[rainbowflower]

this is interesting: :: Hypoparathyroidism UK :: (http://hpth.org.uk/hpth.php?id=167)

[nuthinbutpink]

It is very poorly written and it contradicts itself several times.

[rainbowflower]

It is very poorly written and it contradicts itself several times.
can't disagree with you there... and if it was the only study I'd seen that had similar findings I'd be ignoring it too :(

[mrs magoo]

no that's what the abstract says, but reading their results table and all the discussion it says it sways pink so think it must just be a typo in the abstract

That's a pretty big error in writing the report...,

[meeks32]

HI atomic, just wanted to share an interesting article I found (maybe it´s already by here, but if not , here it is!):

Calcium

Calcium is a supplement most often noted for its ability to promote strong bones and teeth. However, this nutrient can have a number of other benefits, including promoting hormone production. According to a study from the December 2008 edition of "Biological Trace Element Research," four weeks of calcium supplementation can support increased testosterone levels.

Magnesium

Magnesium is an essential nutrient that aids in producing energy, activates enzymes and helps regulate the amount of certain other nutrients in your body. In addition, research published in the April 2011 edition of "Biological Trace Element Research" indicates that supplementation with magnesium can promote increased testosterone levels.



I found it here: Vitamin Supplements To Increase Testosterone | LIVESTRONG.COM (http://www.livestrong.com/article/508987-vitamin-supplements-to-increase-testosterone/)

Just re read the entire thread and thought I would remind everyone of this. If nothing atomic said counters the calc mag argument for you, then this should!

[rainbowflower]

Just re read the entire thread and thought I would remind everyone of this. If nothing atomic said counters the calc mag argument for you, then this should!

that is reassuring to read, but I still can't get past all the statistics in many studies I've seen. Perhaps something else sways more than testosterone levels?

[Rainbow baby]

I can't remember if I replyed already or I just didn't post it but with my medical issues I know sodium in foods is processed and used differently than if you were to eat strait table salt on foods. The body uses it differently maybe thats why salt sways. In saying that I have a problem getting enough and have been told to add a teaspoon a day of table salt to foods now. I had all my boys before that so it wasn't the salt or sodium that gave my all 4 of mine, maybe it contributed to me not having a girl???

[meeks32]

I flirted with the idea calcium and mag sway girl, and come back to it frequently, but ultimately keep coming back to the fact it makes sense that low everything tricks our body into thinking we are in famine, and that attracting a girl sperm makes evolutionary sense in times of famine because girl babies require less calories to survive, thus are a safer choice for the body to make, because ultimately we are designed to survive, and for our offspring to survive. Throwing boy in times of high nutrients makes sense to me as well, because they require more calories to survive.

I see the links in those studies and don't discredit them but worry taking the calc mag will trick my body into thinking times are good, despite LE diet. Drinking more milk and so on would only add to that issue so I don't believe it's any good for TTC girl.

For the record although I drank a lot of soy milk with ds1 and ds2, it's LOADED with vitamins and calcium enriched, and I ate a lot of cheese and tons of yoghurt too. So if calc alone swayed, I would have had girls. I did lots of boy things though, multivitamins, extra vit c, orange juice, healthy frequent snacks, ate meat, lots of high nutrient veggies, fave foods were super high in protein or 'good' fats like avocado and other fave veggies and fruits would only have made things worse as I loved oranges, banana, mango, etc etc. so despite the calcium, I was so boy diet it's not even funny.

I have compromised and put dh on calc mag, and cran. Where I only take folic acid and acidophilus. I take iron too because annoyingly I'm deficient but that sways boy so I don't recommend that to anyone.

[atomic sagebrush]

I've talked about this a lot and I'm not sure anything is accomplished by my doing so further. not my job to convince anyone to take or not take it. cal got me boys and got me ds 4 where I was taking tons. no cal got me dd. everyone should use their own judgment and do what their gut says.

[harleyquinn]

Rainbowflower....I thnk the calcium bit is extremely iffy. Have you read the studies on Omega 6s for sheep? Again iffy. I'm not a rat...I don't spin on a wheel all day. I don't baaaaa in a feild either with some dog nipping my knees. LOL. I guess what I mean is...we do SO MUCH to influence our hormones (don't see rats laying around drinking wine and eating fiddle faddle by the box) so we gotta look at the logic here. The only thing I have stumbled across is women who are estrogen dominant are magnesium deficient (would she please shut up about estrogen?!) but I haven't put that together in my head, nor do I really care to pursue that.
Its like anything in this swaying business....you go lookin' for a study to back up what you believe...you'll probably find it. We gotta figure out which ones make sense. :highfive:

[harleyquinn]

I read this on my FB yesterday and had to have a chuckle...NUMBER ONE...you can link calcium comsumption with just about ANYTHING lol...and NUMBER TWO, look how much milk these Swedes are drinking :holysheep: and they have one of the highest sex ratios in the world.
Drink Your Milk: It Could Help You Win a Nobel Prize | TIME.com (http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/01/16/drink-your-milk-it-could-help-you-win-a-nobel-prize/)

[meeks32]

I read this on my FB yesterday and had to have a chuckle...NUMBER ONE...you can link calcium comsumption with just about ANYTHING lol...and NUMBER TWO, look how much milk these Swedes are drinking :holysheep: and they have one of the highest sex ratios in the world.
Drink Your Milk: It Could Help You Win a Nobel Prize | TIME.com (http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/01/16/drink-your-milk-it-could-help-you-win-a-nobel-prize/)

Haha gold! Nice one.

[atomic sagebrush]

Check out this new mice study, shows low calcium = more girls and from a much more reputable source PLOS ONE: Calcium Availability Influences Litter Size and Sex Ratio in White-Footed Mice (Peromyscus leucopus) (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041402) (thx hopeful monster)

[shiningstar]

Anyone know how long it takes for calcium to actually absorb in your body and if it's something that needs to be built up over time to make a difference in your nutrient levels? (Sorry that is a long winded question.) When I conceived DS2 I was drinking high fat milk by the gallons (per IG). I was trying for a girl but got a beautiful boy. This baby was a surprise and I was consuming very little calcium EXCEPT for the couple days around ovulation. I drank some brandy with egg nog. Hence the reason we had an oopsie. Lol! I just read that egg nog has more calcium than milk. I know what's done is done but I'm just obsessing. My ultrasound is tomorrow. Eek!

[meeks32]

Anyone know how long it takes for calcium to actually absorb in your body and if it's something that needs to be built up over time to make a difference in your nutrient levels? (Sorry that is a long winded question.) When I conceived DS2 I was drinking high fat milk by the gallons (per IG). I was trying for a girl but got a beautiful boy. This baby was a surprise and I was consuming very little calcium EXCEPT for the couple days around ovulation. I drank some brandy with egg nog. Hence the reason we had an oopsie. Lol! I just read that egg nog has more calcium than milk. I know what's done is done but I'm just obsessing. My ultrasound is tomorrow. Eek!

If anything the alcohol should sway pink. No vitamins and minerals are absorbed that much that fast, so a few days around o could never outweigh months without. Keep us posted!!

[atomic sagebrush]

It's not likely that you'd get scads of calcium from some eggnog but there are nutrients in eggnog otherwise that could also sway, plus it's protein and carbs together that keeps your blood sugar up. I don't ever think it comes down to one thing like that though.

[Dragonmother]

When following a strict diet(Paleo) before and during the conception of my darling boy, i was advised to take magnesium supplements (big ones in mgs ( i can look up mgs and brand) No dairy allowed. The only alternative was coconutmilk,i had a lot of that mixed in daily almond-meal-pancakes.

No calcium supplements, but eating 3-4 eggs daily.
Sorry if this info may be confusing! Im a little confused about the influence of nutrition myself... ;-)

[atomic sagebrush]

Hi! Can you clarify for me what you are concerned about??

A Paleo type diet eating 3-4 eggs a day with coconut milk and almond meal pancakes is very similar to what I would recommend someone eat for a boy. If you are thinking that the lack of dairy is what got you a boy and that this somehow proves that no calcium sways blue, it's nutrients overall that sway blue and there are a LOT of nutrients in that type of diet.

[Dragonmother]

Hey! I understand it's the nutrients in this diet that may sway heavy on blue-team. ( calcium included, ate a lot of green leaf)
It's just that i get a little confused by all of the swaying factors.
So i guess coconut-milk is nutritious..
All together, i was actually following every step of a boy-sway :)
Except for the weight loss.
Since this was nutrients all-over, my guess would be my chances of swaying girl are (a lot) bigger now, as i don't exercise at all, and eat what is considered normal/sloppy. Hours go by without eating these days, always busy and occupied with my son, i can only eat when he's all taken care of. I wonder what i can do to help a future ( december) sway.
I'm not completely sure, but i'm getting curious about a personal plan.
Sorry if my previous post wasn't clear.
Im having a hard time sometimes placing the puzzle-pieces.;-)

[atomic sagebrush]

I am always happy to answer specific questions!

[Throwaway_panther]

When following a strict diet(Paleo) before and during the conception of my darling boy, i was advised to take magnesium supplements (big ones in mgs ( i can look up mgs and brand) No dairy allowed. The only alternative was coconutmilk,i had a lot of that mixed in daily almond-meal-pancakes.

No calcium supplements, but eating 3-4 eggs daily.
Sorry if this info may be confusing! Im a little confused about the influence of nutrition myself... ;-)

I know this is ages old, but I just stumbled across it (since I sought a thread like this to mention that yet another study came out saying more calcium yielded more boys, as well as more potassium resulting in more boys).

I thought I'd note for anyone reading: magnesium is necessary for absorbing Vitamin D, which in turn is necessary for absorbing calcium. Magnesium would be specifically absorbing any calcium well in a low calcium diet, leading to a higher calcium intake than suspected. Adding on to the fact that eggs are calcium rich as well as many veggies, this was not only a nutrious diet as atomic suggested, but also likely an adequate intake of calcium diet as well.

[atomic sagebrush]

Thanks for posting, I'd love a link if you have a spare moment.

The thing I want to beware of (and this is just as true for me as for anyone) is falling into a trap of reading too much into any one particular mineral or nutrient. Like, yeah, boy moms may have been eating more potassium or calcium but that may very well be because they were eating more of EVERYTHING across the boards and it is the big picture that counts. Since I've seen people getting boys and girls with about every possible combo of nutrient supplements one could possibly imagine, I have a hard time wrapping my brain around any one thing, be it calcium, potassium, even Vit D etc in and of itself, alone, on its own, swaying strongly. Like if a person was eating nothing but lettuce and rice cakes, and took a Vitamin D supp, could they REALLY get a boy because of the Vit D? Probably not. It's a pitfall because people get sooo hung up on things like potassium when it's most likely that the gal eating the most potassium, since it's in everything, is eating the most of everything all together. :)