NTNP and some other questions

[Verena]

It seems that hubby wants to do ntnp. I can't talk to him about it cause everytime I do he says no, he doesn't want to ttc yet. But then he is doing risky things like not pulling out (tmi) in the middle of my cycle. Last month this ended up being an O-2 attempt, unfortunately I didn't get pregnant. But now I'm wondering how to handle this with respect to swaying pink and trying to get only one well-timed attempt. Has anybody been in this situation and has some practical tips how I can make this happen? I'm afraid that hubby wants to bd 3 or 4 days before my normal o-date and when I speculate for better bd'ing one or two days later he won't do it then or will pull out and we miss the month...

I also was planning to try to get femara. I think there is no point in taking it with hubby not committing to really try that month?

And another question regarding jump and dump. I got both boys with propping my hips for a while after bd'ing. Last month, when hubby didn't pull out I was completely overwhelmed what to do. I wanted to jump and dump and prop my hips, which is quite contradicting lol. And I had to prop secretly cause I didn't want hubby to see it [emoji85] so I ended up going to the toilet after 10 minutes laying flat but after using the toilet I panicked that I wouldn't get pregnant that way. So I layed down on the bathroom floor holding my legs up on the wall (and feeling like an idiot lol). Would this still be considered as jump and dump? Is there actually a point in propping hips to get pregnant or is it just coincidence that I got pregnant only this way twice?

Sorry for the long text... Hope there is someone out there who can help [emoji4]

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[atomic sagebrush]

Well, I had a nice long answer written and lost it. :/

Yes, I've been in this situation, it's much how I got my DD.

Just go along with it without making a fuss. For men who are reluctant, putting any pressure on them often makes them change their mind totally. It can be a good exercise in giving up control over swaying - just letting it go and turning it over to God/Fate since it is out of your control right now.

If you think he will keep going with this routine then take the Femara. If you don't, then wait to take it.

You do not need to prop hips to get pregnant. I would not completely call that J and D but it doesn't matter. Just laying flat for 5-10 minutes is all you need to do to boost odds of conception, and you can get pregnant even with an immediate J and D. :) Good luck and pink dust!

[MiaMelb]

Both my DDs are near immediate j and d so it can definitely happen.

[Verena]

Thank you for answering atomic! It's funny to read that you have been in a similar situation. I find it really hard... Today is CD9 and I normally have a positive opk on CD12. So I'm not sure what to do. Delaying bd'ing or doing it today if hubby is up to it and then trying to initiate it again closer to O-day... But that might be more blue friendly then... I guess I'll just go with the flow as you suggested [emoji4] if we bd today, I guess there is no point in doing j&d so far from ovulation?

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[atomic sagebrush]

Thank you for answering atomic! It's funny to read that you have been in a similar situation. I find it really hard... Today is CD9 and I normally have a positive opk on CD12. So I'm not sure what to do. Delaying bd'ing or doing it today if hubby is up to it and then trying to initiate it again closer to O-day... But that might be more blue friendly then... I guess I'll just go with the flow as you suggested [emoji4] if we bd today, I guess there is no point in doing j&d so far from ovulation?

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

It was one of the hardest things I"ve ever had to do - to in essence stop trying and just allow it to happen if it was meant to happen!! But, then again living with my husband has been an exercise in giving up control over everything and hating it every second LOL.

REmember, BD closer to O day DOES NOT SWAY. Timing has been debunked as much as it is possible for something to BE debunked, scientifically speaking. So yes I'd def. have you in with attempt closer to O than CD 9!

Fine not to J and D with this one if you don't want to. :)

[Verena]

Thanks for answering, atomic! I know timing doesn't sway [emoji4] I just meant if we had an attempt at CD9 AND CD12, that would be a bit more blue friendly than just one attempt. But we were too tired yesterday anyway lol. So no attempt so far and I think I'll try to avoid attempts until CD11 or 12 now.

I decided to make an appointment with my doc and to try to get clomid/femara. Is it still your suggestion to rather try to get femara? I'm 36... Honestly it makes me a bit nervous that the statistics are for clomid only. I tried to search the forums for femara sways but the few results of the sways I found were rather 50:50. So from your experience do you have the impression that femara really sways as strongly as clomid (or even better like this one study suggested)? What would you do if you were in my place? I'll just go with that [emoji4] although I'm not sure if femara is well known here in germany, so my doc might give me clomid anyway (if he gives me anything at all).

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[atomic sagebrush]

No because CD 9 is too far out to matter.

We know based NOT on our results (which are junk) but on a study that Femara actually sways more than Clomid. And yes it's also my perception.

You may not be able to get Clomid anyway as recently it's been hard to come by in Europe.

[Verena]

So I have made an appointment with my doc for next monday. This will likely be the day after ovulation. I think he will make an ultrasound of my ovaries and so on, this shouldn't disturb a beginning pregnancy should it?

To make sure I understand it correctly and there is not a language problem... Your impression from sways that you have supported is that femara sways at least as much as clomid? I wouldn't feel good relying on the results of just one study... But on "atomic perception" [emoji4][emoji4][emoji4]

I really hope my plan of getting femara/clomid doesn't fail only because clomid is not available in Europe... [emoji54]

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes. Femara is at least as good as Clomid (and we know this since it was demonstrated in a study) but yes, also in my observations. As good or even better.

They seem to have fully switched over to Femara now with no problems so I think you'll be able to get it if your doctor think it is right for you! :) Good luck!

They say it shouldn't disrupt a beginning pregnancy and lots of gals have had scans right around ovulation and gone on to conceive. I can't give you a definitive answer simply because it's not been studied enough but it's believed to be safe.

[Verena]

Thank you so much for all your help atomic!

At least I've succesfully hidden from my DH until yesterday lol. I have one attempt at CD11 now, which I hope will turn out to be an O-2 attempt [emoji123][emoji123][emoji6]

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[atomic sagebrush]

good luck!!

[Verena]

good luck!!Atomic, I had my appointment today as my babysitter got sick last time. It went a bit different than planned because I had a very very faint bfp this morning and my doc was only talking about betas. But when I asked him about femara if this would not turn out to be a viable pregnancy he told me he can prescribe it to me and that I would have to take it from CD15-25. Then I realized he thought femara was progesterone [emoji85] So he has never heard of femara before, but he might give me clomid. I'm really hoping I won't need it though [emoji4]



6c8b58 Ovulation charts on FertilityFriend.com (http://fertilityfriend.com/home/6c8b58/)

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[atomic sagebrush]

Oh wow huge congrats! I like that your temp is nice and high still (I sneaked a peek at your chart!!)

[Verena]

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that I will miscarry. My tests didn't get any darker than squinter stage and since a few days they are only getting lighter... I think I should start to bleed soon, at least when my tests get negative? I really hope it goes quick and uncomplicated. Could I count the start of the bleeding as CD1 and directly take clomid that cycle?

6c8b58 Ovulation charts on FertilityFriend.com (http://fertilityfriend.com/home/6c8b58/)

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[atomic sagebrush]

I saw you started a chart, did AF come?

I'm so sorry to hear it didn't work out this month. :( Chemicals are generally uncomplicated and yes you just treat it like a period and start your Clomid on the appropriate day BUT (and this is very very important) you MUST take a pregnancy test the day you're due to start the Clomid in case the pregnancy actually is viable. You can have a period and even get a negative test earlier in the cycle and still be pregnant. Please 100% for sure take a pregnancy test the day you are meant to start the Clomid.

[Verena]

I saw you started a chart, did AF come?

I'm so sorry to hear it didn't work out this month. :( Chemicals are generally uncomplicated and yes you just treat it like a period and start your Clomid on the appropriate day BUT (and this is very very important) you MUST take a pregnancy test the day you're due to start the Clomid in case the pregnancy actually is viable. You can have a period and even get a negative test earlier in the cycle and still be pregnant. Please 100% for sure take a pregnancy test the day you are meant to start the Clomid.Thank you atomic! Yes, "AF" arrived two days ago, but it is a bit lighter than a normal AF (maybe 70% of my last AF) and it's stopping now already. I thought it would be heavier? I hope this doesn't mean this isn't the final bleeding... I will see my doc tomorrow, hopefully he can see via ultrasound if the lining is gone. I'll ask for clomid then as well and also to check that my beta has decreased to non-pregnancy values. Thank you for all your support! [emoji173]️

6c8b58 Ovulation charts on FertilityFriend.com (http://fertilityfriend.com/home/6c8b58/)

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[atomic sagebrush]

Lots of us notice a lighter flow on sway diets and chemicals do not always (or even usually) lead to extra heavy bleeding. Most chemicals are just whatever your period was going to be that month. I don't think that is anything out of the ordinary. So sorry this one didn't work out - FX for better news very soon.

[Verena]

Omg my doc prescribed me femara 2.5 mg today! I didn't expect that at all but I think he saw how sad I was and wanted to give me something to cheer me up.

I'm a bit overwhelmed what to do now. My doc also saw on ultrasound that there is still some lining left and he was not sure if it was just normal lining, that would bleed off within the next days, or if it was "polypous tissue". I will have to go for a repeat scan next week but he gave me the femara so I think it safe to take it even if there is a polyp?

I'm on CD4 now an I ususally ovulate on CD13. Would it be better to start today or tomorrow? If possible I would rather prefer to ovulate earlier than later. From your experience when could I roughly expect ovulation on femara?

http://fertilityfriend.com/home/6c8b58/

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[atomic sagebrush]

I suspect that if it had been problematic he'd have booked you in for surgery right away. It was probably very small and probably is just normal lining that will come away. I would go ahead and take the Femara - the risk is that you may have a slightly higher chance of miscarriage but most people don't ever even know they have one (and we don't know that you have one)

I would take the Femara either today or tomorrow. There's no difference, both are fine. You will ovulate 5-10 days after the last dose of Femara MOST of the time but occasionally it takes a bit longer.

[Verena]

Again, thank you so much for all your help atomic! Your answer really calmed me down a lot yesterday and I took the first pill because I somehow hope that I will ovulate a day earlier then as well.

I read that using opks after clomid might not work (false positives / negatives). Is it the same with femara? My hubby still is not actively trying (although he knows about the miscarriage and that I'm taking femara) and if I can't rely on opks this month it might get a bit tricky to bd in a pattern like E4D...

6c8b58 Ovulation charts on FertilityFriend.com (http://fertilityfriend.com/home/6c8b58/)

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes but it's only for 3 days after the last dose. You won't ovulate till 5 days after the last dose at the very earliest so you don't really need to worry about the false positive OPKs.

What I would do is have you BD that 4th or 5th day after your last dose of Femara just to cover you for a couple of days, and start OPK as well. Then if you do end up getting another positive within 2 days, stick with the attempt you have had. If 4 days or longer, then have another attempt. If you are in the middle (3 days) then if you want a higher chance of conception but possibly lower chance of pink, have another attempt. If you prefer higher chance of pink but lower chance of conception, stick with the attempt you've had.

If you prefer to do e4d that's fine too. But keep in mind you don't have to get THAT OCD about the e4d pattern. The point is simply having regular unprotected sex that's at least 3 days apart (so Monday/Thursday pattern, not those days but that many days apart). So let's say hubby is being stubborn and it gets to be e4 or 6 or even 7 days. STILL have attempt! There is no sway magic to the e4d pattern, it is fine to have the attempts farther. It will be lower odds of conception, of course, but it does NOT sway blue to do attempts farther apart!!

[Verena]

Yes but it's only for 3 days after the last dose. You won't ovulate till 5 days after the last dose at the very earliest so you don't really need to worry about the false positive OPKs.

What I would do is have you BD that 4th or 5th day after your last dose of Femara just to cover you for a couple of days, and start OPK as well. Then if you do end up getting another positive within 2 days, stick with the attempt you have had. If 4 days or longer, then have another attempt. If you are in the middle (3 days) then if you want a higher chance of conception but possibly lower chance of pink, have another attempt. If you prefer higher chance of pink but lower chance of conception, stick with the attempt you've had.

If you prefer to do e4d that's fine too. But keep in mind you don't have to get THAT OCD about the e4d pattern. The point is simply having regular unprotected sex that's at least 3 days apart (so Monday/Thursday pattern, not those days but that many days apart). So let's say hubby is being stubborn and it gets to be e4 or 6 or even 7 days. STILL have attempt! There is no sway magic to the e4d pattern, it is fine to have the attempts farther. It will be lower odds of conception, of course, but it does NOT sway blue to do attempts farther apart!!Thank you so much atomic! Sounds like a great plan to have an attempt some days after the last dose to be covered just in case. I hope this will work out since today DH woke up with the men flue...[emoji51]

I am on CD8 today and still slightly bleeding/spotting. Is this ok after the chemical or should I be concerned? Seeing my doc on Friday anyway, he wants to check if the possible polypous tissue on my lining is gone and see how many follicles are growing. So I guess I will just wait until that appointment and hope the bleeding stops in the mean time?

And I had a huge freak out yesterday. I made the mistake to google for that study that showed that more girls are conceived on femara. I found the study but I also saw hundereds of threads on message boards where people were saying they conceived boys on femara. Way more than girls. I panicked and searched sways here on gender dreaming and counted them. I could find 8 successful girl sways and 6 with opposites. I know, not really high numbers to be statistically significant, but that would be way lower than the overall success rate of this site. So I really can't help the feeling that maybe this study was just a fluke? Can you calm me down a little bit on this?

6c8b58 Ovulation charts on FertilityFriend.com (http://fertilityfriend.com/home/6c8b58/)

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[atomic sagebrush]

It is just fine, you start regrowing your lining from the inside out so even when you're still actively bleeding your lining is already 2/5 through 3/5 of the way formed for the next cycle.

OF COURSE people get boys on Femara. I really cannot stress strongly enough how bad an idea it is to Google these things. First of all people get boys on Femara because they are NOT SWAYING and in fact are doing tons of things to boost fertility, all of which sway blue. People are taking Femara because they are having fertility issues, not because they are swaying! And secondly, the reason why most people take Femara is for PCOS and PCOS sways blue anyway.

We know Femara sways pink because of that study (and NO I don't think it is a fluke) and also our own results. There are hundreds of people who sway with me who don't post in the spreadsheet for every one who does and I think our statistics are pretty much complete crap. I have seen plenty of people get girls with Femara or I would not recommend it.

I have spent hours a day for 10 years now studying these things, reading posts and studies, seeing people's sways, etc. I would not tell you to use Femara if I did not believe in it.

[Verena]

I didn't mean to question your knowledge and recommendations at all, I'm sorry if I made that impression! I just had a freak out moment and was not of sane mind anymore I guess. Thanks for setting me straight, that was just what I needed. I was secretly hoping that you would write exactly this, that you have by far more cases than can be seen in the public post your sway forum.

Thank you again for all your help and support and sharing all your wisdom! [emoji4][emoji173]️





It is just fine, you start regrowing your lining from the inside out so even when you're still actively bleeding your lining is already 2/5 through 3/5 of the way formed for the next cycle.

OF COURSE people get boys on Femara. I really cannot stress strongly enough how bad an idea it is to Google these things. First of all people get boys on Femara because they are NOT SWAYING and in fact are doing tons of things to boost fertility, all of which sway blue. People are taking Femara because they are having fertility issues, not because they are swaying! And secondly, the reason why most people take Femara is for PCOS and PCOS sways blue anyway.

We know Femara sways pink because of that study (and NO I don't think it is a fluke) and also our own results. There are hundreds of people who sway with me who don't post in the spreadsheet for every one who does and I think our statistics are pretty much complete crap. I have seen plenty of people get girls with Femara or I would not recommend it.

I have spent hours a day for 10 years now studying these things, reading posts and studies, seeing people's sways, etc. I would not tell you to use Femara if I did not believe in it.



6c8b58 Ovulation charts on FertilityFriend.com (http://fertilityfriend.com/home/6c8b58/)

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[atomic sagebrush]

No not at all, that was meant to be reassuring. I meant "if atomic has studied it all this time and she thinks it sways pink then it probably does" kind of thing, NOT "respect my authority" LOL. Sorry for the confusion!

[Verena]

Lol nooo I didn't understand it in a "respect my authority" way! Just in an a little bit annoyed way, with good reason. You just want the best for your swayers and then there is someone like me whom you tell the same things again and again and who still doesn't seem to believe but panicks over some random google results instead.

I really don't know what was going on. Please don't beat me but I even thought about skipping this month [emoji85] maybe femara messed up my mind. BUT I'm fine now and really excited about what will happen within the next days!

It's the second day after the last dose of femara and my opks are negative. Can I assume if they get positive now, it's a real positive? I have a follicle check tomorrow, so I hope that will give me a clue when I will roughly ovulate as well.




No not at all, that was meant to be reassuring. I meant "if atomic has studied it all this time and she thinks it sways pink then it probably does" kind of thing, NOT "respect my authority" LOL. Sorry for the confusion!

6c8b58 Ovulation charts on FertilityFriend.com (http://fertilityfriend.com/home/6c8b58/)

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[atomic sagebrush]

No not annoyed at all! :) I answer a lot of posts really fast most days and sometimes my replies are a little more...ahem..."brief"...than they should be.

Yes I'd assume that they are the real deal from here on in. But DO pick it up with e4d after your pos OPK attempt, just to cover yourself in case of delayed ovulaton. So have an attempt at positive OPK, then start counting every 4 days after that so you'll always have something there to greet the egg, even if she is fashionably late. :)

[Verena]

My doc saw a 20 mm follicle this morning and said, ovulation will be today or tomorrow?? [emoji50] It's CD11 and my opks are far from being positive. So I guess I'll try to make my ntnp hubby to bd tonight? I hope he's up to bd'ing! [emoji33]

6c8b58 Ovulation charts on FertilityFriend.com (http://fertilityfriend.com/home/6c8b58/)

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[atomic sagebrush]

AAa yes have him BD tonight ASAP if possible!! FXFXFX!!!

I DO want to mention that docs are not infallible, so it makes some sense to me to have another attempt CD 14 as well to cover in case the doctor is incorrect. If it's possible, I'd have you do that.

[Verena]

I ended up with only this attempt on CD11 because hubby was still a bit sick yesterday. Opk was positive at 7 am on CD13 (was neg at 5 am so I'm pretty sure it was a real positive), but my temps are not so clear. At least I'm quite sure I've ovulated yesterday in the latest case giving me an O-3 attempt. I know, not too good odds of conception...

My doc prescribed me progesterone but I'm not sure if there's a point in taking it. I have a 13 day luteal phase so I don't think prog is the problem? What do you think about this? When I miscarried last month my prog was at 16 on 11 dpo, and my doc found this too low but I would assume that it was so low because something was wrong with the pregnancy, not vice versa?

6c8b58 Ovulation charts on FertilityFriend.com (http://fertilityfriend.com/home/6c8b58/)

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[atomic sagebrush]

I would not EVER take progesterone with a 13 day LP!!

Yes you are quite correct, the reason why your progesterone was low with the last pregnancy was because it wasn't working out. That's how it works, the pregnancy doesn't send the right signal to your body and then your body naturally lets the corpus luteum break down and the pregnancy ends. Before doctors understood this fully, they prescribed progesterone thinking it was low progesterone that ended the pregnancy, but studies have shown that progesterone supplementation does nothing to help anyone get or stay pregnant and all they do is prolong a loss a few more days. So I don't recommend them.

[Verena]

Thank you atomic! I won't take the progesterone. Wouldn't know what I would do without all your help! [emoji173]️

6c8b58 Ovulation charts on FertilityFriend.com (http://fertilityfriend.com/home/6c8b58/)

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[Verena]

Atomic I got a faint bfp yesterday at 9/10 dpo [emoji2] so excited and I hope I will have more luck with this pregnancy than with last month's.

I'm really unsure what prenatal I should look for and I know you have a wealth of knowledge about supplements. What would you advice what should be in it and in what dose?

And another question regarding diet. I lost almost 30 lbs since I started LE diet last summer. I'm at my lowest adult weight, bmi is 22 and I feel soooo good! To me it feels like I have finally found my biorhythm with skipping breakfast and eating two large meals for lunch and dinner. I'm scared of gaining weight really fast if I start changing anything. Would it be unhealthy for the baby if I continued to eat this way? Do you have an atomic pregnancy diet by chance? [emoji6] maybe I up my cals to 2000 (so far have been eating 1800 cals on pcos diet) and just make sure I get enough prot and fat?

No matter what the result of my sway will be, I am sooo thankful for you inventing LE diet! [emoji4]

6c8b58 Ovulation charts on FertilityFriend.com (http://fertilityfriend.com/home/6c8b58/)

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[Verena]

Bumping [emoji846]

6c8b58 Ovulation charts on FertilityFriend.com (http://fertilityfriend.com/home/6c8b58/)

[emoji170] 08/2014 [emoji170] 04/2016

[atomic sagebrush]

Huge congrats! Sorry I read this and even "liked" it but must have closed the window without answering. Thanks for bumping.

I like the Women's One a Day (not the prenatals, the standard orange Women's One a Day) because it has just a good amount of nutrients in it, without having megadoses or any weird herbs and stuff. Too many places cram their prenatals full of massive amounts of vitamins/minerals and then toss in all this other crap but we don't even know if that is safe! Centrum is another good brand. Please just find something that has 100% of most things, you can go higher on Vit. D (up to 1000 IU if you want to) 18-30 mg iron unless you're anemic in which case you can go up to 60, but WITHOUT the massively high amounts of other nutrients.

I do like you guys to up protein to 60-70 g at minimum, 60 g fat minimum, and up cals to 2000-2200 minimum. (you will need to up this even more after you're out of the first tri.) I suggest you add breakfast back in because not eating can trigger more severe morning sickness. :)