What can i take out of my sway to prevent another chemical? anyone? atomic??

[deaks66]

Just something else i would like to get you ladies opinions on since my chemical and before my next attempt.

Is it just too much to be abstaining for 10+ days, dtd at approx 0+12 (when the egg is getting past its best already), using lime 5 mins after, being hardcore on the diet and supps (calc, mag, cran, acidiphilous) and dh (ph 7.3) taking liquorice root, cran, calc?

I really feel like something might have to give in order to sustain a healthy pregnancy and im wandering what you ladies would cut out if anything? For example should dh give the liquorice root a miss or is this actually good for fertility? I happy to give the lime a miss but perhaps this is the least detrimental of factors? Is it too much to be hardcore with diet and supps?

Other things you should know, i cant really consider the idea of bd through ov as my ph rockets to 6.0-7.5 during this time. Also, we have tried frequent bd and my dh just cant manage it as my ov is unpredictable and always delayed. Plus i know that i cant get pg with a cut-off and a combo is even more FR!!

I really cant handle another chemical or anything worse so need to get swaying within reasonable limits! Any advice is so appreciated! X

[TTC5]

Hi there
I know little about licorice root, sorry but please, nothing you did contributed to your loss. Unfortunately, and I know this does not make you feel any better, these things happen and are quite common :(

It happens to the best of us, big big hugs xxx

[deaks66]

Thanks ttc5! Trouble is since all this happened i have done a fair bit of reading and it seems to me that a lot of girl swayers have suffered from chemicals. I know we can never know exactly what causes a miscarriage but i just wander if any of the swaying methods can cause problems in some women/couples. I never suffered from any problems whatsoever with my sons and i believe this is my second chemical whilst swaying for 9 months...thats too much of a coincidence in my eyes. Just feel like i wouldnt be taking my (and my future babies) health seriously if i didn't ask more questions/do more research.

I do very much appreciate your kind words though:)

[zanacal]

I also want to reassure you that you didn't do anything to 'cause' your loss deaks but I understand wanting to reassess things to make sure you're comfortable with it all.

How old is your DH? If he's over 35 then I would consider not doing abstinence. Have you looked into compressed frequent release? Once you've decided on 'the day' (I would go with O+12 if that's what you're comfortable with or DTD once on the day of your +OPK so you still have a small cut-off but a higher chance of getting pregnant) you get DH to release once or twice before DTD with the second or third batch - and preferably within 8 hours of the previous release. There's a study on here which looked at the effect on sperm count of very frequent release if you think that might work for you and want to read it - let me know and I'll find the link.

The other thing I would be sure to do is keep blood sugar levels low during the 2ww, so if you conceive a girl you're giving her the optimal environment to develop in. This is an area of swaying which has some evidence behind it because scientists have watched it happening under a microscope - here's a link which explains better:

http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?5319-How-long-is-low-blood-sugar-important

I don't know about the supplements because I didn't take most of them. Are you taken sane amounts or the crazy amounts some girl swayers take?!

Again, I hope you're not blaming yourself because it can happen to anybody and we'll never know why. {hugs}

[deaks66]

Thanks zanacal, no im really not blaming myself though i still regret not taking the progesterone but thats just life, im definitely not worrying about it. I just want to reassess things like you say.

DH is 32 as am i and we did abstinence for both our sons who are nearly 4 and 18 months. The main reason being he just couldn't cope with lots of bd so we just waited for a smiley each time. So im thinking abstinence is ok but i would definitely like to look into that link you mentioned if you can find it.

Atomic also mentioned the blood sugar levels thing, so i will definitely take that onboard and im going to read that link... though in simple terms (i am rubbish with the science!) am i to understand that changing your levels too quickly or early can lead to the fertilised egg not being happy in the environment in which it was created anymore?

I don't think i am taking crazy amounts of supplements, certainly no more than is recommended on the IG site. Certainly my ph isn't as low as some ladies 4.1-4.6 but during ov it rockets to 6.0-7.5, so i cant believe i am the most acidic swayer out! But maybe my body has a naturally high ph and what im eating/taking is throwing it too much off course?

Still wandering about progesterone. Was initially obviously worried that me not taking is was a problem but because my temps seem to have remained high while my body readjusts, progesterone may not have been the problem right? But there is no harm in taking it next time is there? i don't think you can have too much progesterone can you? it wouldn't delay a miscarriage would it?

Thanks so much for your help!

[zanacal]

I don't know about progesterone I'm afraid, but I'm sure somebody else will.

Regarding the blood sugar levels - I can only explain it in simple terms (and sometimes get them wrong!) so no worries there! A fertilised female egg has been shown to suck up glucose very effectively from its environment, so there's a possibility that if there's too much in the environment (because blood sugar levels aren't being kept low in the 2ww) it sucks up too much. A fertilised male egg does not suck up glucose effectively so it may prefer to have more in the environment. Neither type likes very high blood sugar. It's likely that both types can survive in both low and medium glucose environments but it makes sense to provide optimum conditions after we've put in all the hard work leading up to our attempt!

[rainbowflower]

a lot of ladies in general will have MCs... girl swayers included and even those who don't test early. 75% of losses are caused by something that goes wrong during conception to do with DNA. Sadly we want to look for something to blame, but often there are no answers or causes. I know that for my MC (which wasn;t a chemical) I did everything right during my pregnancy and it still happened. If an egg is destined to fail, there is nothing you can do to prevent it.

a LP of 10 or more shouldn't cause you any specific conception problems and the progesterone the doctor has prescribed you will definitely help you with that.

the blood sugar thing is about creating the environment in which fertilised eggs can best develop. XX tend to thrive fine when there is low blood sugar whereas XY need more stable blood glucose in order to grow. Should you conceive an XY and have low blood sugar there is less chance that it will reach a state where it can implant, however in the same circumstances there is a good chance than at XX egg would. 75% of fertilised eggs fail to implant anyway for one reason or another.

would you feel more comfortable with compressed frequent release around pos OPK/BD through OV?

I do think you should consider mumomega or similar. That will improve your uterine lining making implantation more likely to be successful, it also improves egg quality. For some it also increase EWCM, but you could always take something to dry it up.

[deaks66]

Thanks zanacal and rainbow! i know there is nothing you can do to prevent these miscarriages from happening if they are going to regardless, i just need to be sure i am doing everything i possibly can to help those that can be prevented iykwim!

The blood sugar level is starting to make sense and that is something i can definitely do. So is it suggested that we stay on the diet for a few days after ov, up till implantation time or for the full 2ww and therefore never really having a break from the diet at all? If its the latter, that will be hard and i may have to relax the diet somewhat to keep it going as i have been on it for so long with only a couple of breaks!

Rainbow, i don't think i would feel more comfortable with bd thourgh ov because as i have mentioned my ph rockets during this time into boy territory. I have asked tamara about this and apparently there are just some women who wont be able to alter their ov ph and it looks like i am one of those. So in my case, timing is a hugely important factor in my eyes. I will consider the compressed FR though but again i have only ever got a bfp through abstaining!

I am up for taking something to improve uterine lining but would be worried about anything that increases ewcm as i have plenty of that despite being on the diet for so long! i guess this is why my ph rockets. I am still toying with taking b6 throughout my cycles to help uterine lining but am really worried about my cycles lengthening too much. i wander if there is something i could take that will help uterine lining and egg quality without increasing ewcm or lengthing ov??! a miracle perhaps!

[atomic sagebrush]

I agree with the PP that nothing you did or didn't do caused this to happen.

If I had to tweak your sway to make it more pregnancy-friendly, I would drop both the abstain and the O+12. Neither of these options feels "safe" to me and they never have. Dropping licorice root is def. something to consider too because it is a great big unknown without much research into safety. The lime, as you say, is prob. the least detrimental of all of these things because lime just will kill sperm, it can't affect the DNA or anything. Only during development can the DNA of sperm be affected negatively (which is why abstain may not be the greatest thing ever.)

Have you tried RepHresh for pH? It's specially designed to keep pH low for 3 days after using it - it combines with very alkaline things to lower their pH to 4.5. You might find that it works better for your pH than the lime juice.

Have you looked into the compressed frequent release?? You don't have to do a combo, the compressed FR may work for you guys too.

"Compressed FR: You can use this as an emergency tactic if you were trying to go for FR but something came up and you missed a day here or there, or if you have a very irregular ovulation or a very long cycle (which does happen sometimes when you begin to sway pink, even if you‘ve always had a regular cycle) and the idea of FR for 3 and 4 weeks or even longer is daunting. Or, you can do it by design for those husbands who really cannot manage either FR or abstaining.

DTD in whatever pattern you prefer until you get a positive OPK. (you could potentially use this with a cutoff, but if something happens and you O late, you could end up with your DH having to release for several days in a row and that’s what you’re trying to prevent by doing this technique.) Then, have DH release once and dump the first batch - DO NOT use this batch for insemination, no matter what. As soon as he is capable, have him DTD again…you can use this second batch for insemination or dump it, too. By the time the third batch rolls around (again, as soon as he is able to), the count will be a lot lower than it was and you can use all subsequent batches for insemination. Keep DTD as much as you can until you’re sure you have Oed and the egg is gone. Or, you can use only one batch for insemination if you prefer.

To use this as an emergency tactic, let’s say that you were going for FR but one of your kids got sick in the night and ended up in your bed and then your MIL stopped by unexpectedly on another day. So you missed a couple of days in the middle of your 7-10 day FR. You’ve only had 2 days in a row of release and now you’re going to O in 2 days. Don’t panic. Have DH release once and dump it, then as soon as he is able, DTD again and use that second batch if you like or wait for a third batch. Keep DH releasing as much as possible through O, using or dumping batches depending on your preference. If you’re doing a lot of other things to sway, you may want to finish inside every time, or if you’re not doing much, then you may only want to use one or two of these batches."

[rainbowflower]

Agree with AS about the RepHresh too, perhaps that could sort your pH out around OV?
If your total sperm count could be lowered via that (or through compressed frequent release) it wouldn't matter how many make it into the EWCM and if anything that could give you a better shot at pregnancy whilst still swaying because the initial hard work would already have been done and the EWCM would then ensure that those swimmers make it to the egg and survive long enough to fertilise it.

Do you take antihistamines/whatever to dry up the CM?

Don't actually agree that the compressed frequent release should be an emergency-only tactic, though. From what I've read it lowers sperm concentration in the semen and total semen quantity more effectively and dramatically than the traditional frequent release could. ;)

[atomic sagebrush]

No, I'm sorry, I cut and pasted that from another essay. Compressed FR does not have to be an emergency tactic at all.

[deaks66]

Thanks atomic/rainbow, there is so much useful info there! unfortunately i really don't feel i can give up o+12 as i know cut offs don't work for us (tried and tried to get a bfp that way and just doesn't happen) and bd through ov with my ph = boy!! I could consider using refresh through ov as an alternative or aci gel i guess but had just got to the point where i was dropping any kind of creams, gels and lime out of my sway. The compressed FR could definitely be doable though. So would we would literally dtd or release as much as we like running up to ov but it really doesn't matter how much or when and then at o+12 FR once or twice, ditching that lot and then using the next batch?? The only problem i have with that is dh hates releasing and dtd will increase my already stubborn ph right? i think perhaps bd through ov using rephresh or acigel might be more doable but need to think it through! got another few days until my potential start day of abstinence.

Thanks ladies X

[deaks66]

Just so typical that having at last felt happy with my sway after months of dropping various things that weren't working for us and not considering options that bought us our two beautiful boys in the first place, that i am left with a sway that is potentially going to cause further miscarriage....DEPRESSING!!

[zanacal]

{hugs} deaks. I feel really bad for you.

Regarding the compressed frequent release, you only need to DTD once still - DH could release without DTD the previous times and, if he's kind, do it without your involvement! Maybe if you decide to drop the licorice root you could send him off for an 'exciting' hot bath or shower to compensate!

[deaks66]

Thanks zanacal, do you mean we don't have to be dtd lots before ov and can just stick with thinking about our attempt and release once followed by our attempt next? so in effect we could still abstain until attempt day but then do compressed FR that day? that might help as dh works away and LONG hours so we will never get much chance to bd anyway.

[carmella_marie]

I would be careful about supps. I do not take calcium and magnesium and acidophilus anymore because they seem to raise my pH. Also. Cranberry in the 2WW is believed to be linked to m/c, so you might want to use baby aspirin instead. I have found it lowers my pH really well and it helps implantation--always a plus when you're concerned about m/c) and is safe in the 2WW.

[deaks66]

Thanks carmella, no i have never taken cran in the 2ww. I don't think calc, mag and acid have raised my ph as my ph is only high the day or so before and during ov. Either side of that it is 4.1-4.6 which is a lot lower i believe than when i first started swaying.
I think i will take baby aspirin more diligently and also get some vit E and zinc!

[deaks66]

Atomic/Rainbow/zanacal: In terms of the blood sugar levels.... can you confirm are we supposed to stay on the diet for a few days after ov, up till implantation time or for the full 2ww and therefore never really having a break from the diet at all? If its the latter, that will be hard and i may have to relax the diet somewhat to keep it going as i have been on it for so long with only a couple of breaks!

[Inglewood]

Deaks I read that mg can raise ph and like u, my ph was higher at 7 after dtd and leading upto ov, but 5 after ov dtd. It was 3.5 any other time. My dh's ph was high despite cranb etc... So I decided to give him half a mg tab and I think it helped. Is ur dh's ph high? Just a thought for ur combined ph being high. And I made him drink gallons of crystal light that day!!!

I hope you get a good balance of what works well for u and ur body as you deserve that bfp soon!! x

[atomic sagebrush]

Atomic/Rainbow/zanacal: In terms of the blood sugar levels.... can you confirm are we supposed to stay on the diet for a few days after ov, up till implantation time or for the full 2ww and therefore never really having a break from the diet at all? If its the latter, that will be hard and i may have to relax the diet somewhat to keep it going as i have been on it for so long with only a couple of breaks!

Yes, that is what seems to be best BUT if you can't keep it up, then just make sure you're sticking to the blood sugar stuff (like skipping breakfast, avoiding snacks, not eating very large meals) for a few days before O, O day, and for a few days after. I would MUCH rather see you cheat during AF than those couple of days after O.

Deaks I'm sorry I know you asked several q's but I have only 5 min here and there so just answering the shorties tonight.

[deaks66]

Inglewood, thanks for thinking of me! My dh ph is actually really good 7.3 so im just gonna keep him on his supps but probably take him off the liquorice root. Did you cut mag out of your sups then to lower your ph?

[deaks66]

Yes, that is what seems to be best BUT if you can't keep it up, then just make sure you're sticking to the blood sugar stuff (like skipping breakfast, avoiding snacks, not eating very large meals) for a few days before O, O day, and for a few days after. I would MUCH rather see you cheat during AF than those couple of days after O.

Deaks I'm sorry I know you asked several q's but I have only 5 min here and there so just answering the shorties tonight.

Thanks so much again atomic, will try and stay on the diet as long as i can and only cheat during af...god that is sooooo hard!

[atomic sagebrush]

Thanks atomic/rainbow, there is so much useful info there! unfortunately i really don't feel i can give up o+12 as i know cut offs don't work for us (tried and tried to get a bfp that way and just doesn't happen) and bd through ov with my ph = boy!! I could consider using refresh through ov as an alternative or aci gel i guess but had just got to the point where i was dropping any kind of creams, gels and lime out of my sway. The compressed FR could definitely be doable though. So would we would literally dtd or release as much as we like running up to ov but it really doesn't matter how much or when and then at o+12 FR once or twice, ditching that lot and then using the next batch?? The only problem i have with that is dh hates releasing and dtd will increase my already stubborn ph right? i think perhaps bd through ov using rephresh or acigel might be more doable but need to think it through! got another few days until my potential start day of abstinence.

Thanks ladies X

I totally understand! Just know that I believe it to be very difficult to conceive with O+12...you did it once and that is great but most people, most of the time, have a rough time. I would hate to see you keep up with O+12 if that was a one in a hundred shot, KWIM???

But to echo the other posters, you can do any of these tactics with only one attempt so no worries about the pH going up with numerous BD rounds. If you don't want to use RepHresh that's just fine.

For the compressed FR he releases as many times as he can in a 2-3 day period just before you expect to O. So he would try to release 2-3 times a day and you can use the last ejaculation of the day for your attempt, either with just one attempt or several over a 2-3 day period. Prior to that your husband would just DTD whenever the mood struck until 3 DBO - no need to abstain. He might release once in the morning and again at night (and if at all possible, a third time in the day), using only the last ejaculation for insemination. Then 2 DBO he would release twice (three times if he can but it shouldn't become torture) and use the last insemination. 1 DBO, release twice and use the second batch, O day and O+1 the same thing.

Or, you could toss all other attempts and only use the one from 1 DBO/O Day, O+1, whatever you feel comfy with.

Even tho I don't agree with O+12, I include a BD on O+1 for two reasons...firstly because I know some want to try O+12, and also because every month you have the potential to release two eggs, so if the first egg went unfertilized you may release another egg several hours later that could be hit by an O+1.

[atomic sagebrush]

Thanks zanacal, do you mean we don't have to be dtd lots before ov and can just stick with thinking about our attempt and release once followed by our attempt next? so in effect we could still abstain until attempt day but then do compressed FR that day? that might help as dh works away and LONG hours so we will never get much chance to bd anyway.

You CAN do that but DH needs to be able to release at least twice in a row back to back, for that to work.

So you can abstain for 7-10 days, then have DH release once, dump it, then immediately have him DTD and use that as your attempt. If he can't do it one right after another, it's better to have him do three releases, morning, noon, night, and dump the first two, use the third.

I don't feel as good about that in terms of healthy spermies tho....it's basically abstain, KWIM??

[deaks66]

Yes he could definitely do it twice back to back but i do know what you mean...after a long abstain its not like he is going to produce many new sperm in the space of a couple of hours! Oh dear, it is so tricky! So if we release a few days before ov and then release back to back for our attempt that would be better? I will ask dh and see if he thinks its doable but im sure it is! Its a shame though as I had really set my heart on long abstain and o+12 as it seems like that has a much better success rate and especially as i have dropped so many other sway aspects. Saying that i did conceive my sons with long abstain so perhaps a different method is better.

Another thing... if i was to stick with long abstain then i was going to stop dh's liquorice root but if we are releasing a bit in the run up and then doing compressed release could he stay on the LR or would he find FR hard with it??

So sorry for the millions of questions!

[zanacal]

Some men have had problems in that respect with the LR - but you could give it a go and cut back his dosage if it's an issue!

[zanacal]

deaks - this thread makes quite an interesting read and the study I was talking about (sorry forgot to post the link before!) is on page 3:

http://genderdreaming.com/forum/showthread.php?5007-lowering-sperm-count-without-daily-BDing-or-abstaining

[deaks66]

Thanks zanacal! i know my dh definitely cant release as much as other dh's and i really don't think he has much more than 2ml ever at best! Thats my problem with FR is that the quantity will drop so much (to say 1ml) that i wont get pg. I know there will still be millions of sperm there but i have only ever got pg with a one hit wonder after abstinence. Just really don't know what to do. Going to talk to dh when he gets back tonight.

[zanacal]

Sounds like a good idea, it has to be something you're both comfortable with. My plan changed completely once I'd spoken with DH about it! There's no way of telling how many sperm are in a semen sample - you can have lots of semen with hardly any sperm in and vice versa - so don't fret about that x

[deaks66]

Right, spoken to dh and he's not up for releasing at all! well i mean he is up for attempt time me getting him to the point of no return and then dtd, but he's not up for any more releasing than that. Im not worried though as i have pretty much come to the conclusion tonight that we will abstain for 10 days max, do our o+12, but use absolutely no lime, acigel or LR for him at all. I will also add the progesterone in and be VERY careful with my blood sugar levels. If there is any whiff of a chemical again then we will make some much bigger changes to our sway but for now i am hopeful that using progesterone and not lowering sperm overly far with LR will be some positive changes that will hopefully lead to a healthy bfp.

Hope this is the right thing to do but i just cant imagine bd through ov at the moment or making dh do something he really doesn't want to. He is happy to support me when it comes to my side of the sway but i think FR is just a step to far for him. Fair do's. What do you reckon ladies?

[zanacal]

I reckon that whatever you do has to be right and comfortable for you and DH so that's clearly the best plan for you! Good luck deaks x

[Indira]

I think it is a good plan deaks, dh has to be on board or you won´t be able to get pregnant :)
I think leaving out the lime is a good move.
If you find it takes to long to get pregnant you can always change your mind about O+12 (or try a shorter abstain) knowing you tried for a lot of months. And if you do get pregnant soon (FX!) you can still feel good about your sway, knowing you didn´t throw everything out of window right after your chemical-which would be a very sane thing to do but might make you regret later. Good luck!

[atomic sagebrush]

Right, spoken to dh and he's not up for releasing at all! well i mean he is up for attempt time me getting him to the point of no return and then dtd, but he's not up for any more releasing than that. Im not worried though as i have pretty much come to the conclusion tonight that we will abstain for 10 days max, do our o+12, but use absolutely no lime, acigel or LR for him at all. I will also add the progesterone in and be VERY careful with my blood sugar levels. If there is any whiff of a chemical again then we will make some much bigger changes to our sway but for now i am hopeful that using progesterone and not lowering sperm overly far with LR will be some positive changes that will hopefully lead to a healthy bfp.

Hope this is the right thing to do but i just cant imagine bd through ov at the moment or making dh do something he really doesn't want to. He is happy to support me when it comes to my side of the sway but i think FR is just a step to far for him. Fair do's. What do you reckon ladies?

Then that sounds like an excellent plan! :agree:

[deaks66]

Thanks ladies. Just want to get on with my next attempt now!

[Out of the Blue]

Sending you lots and lots of :luck: :pinksperm: :luck:, deaks!!!!!

[zanacal]

Me too, good luck!

[deaks66]

Thanks zanacal and outoftheblue! its surely got to happen this month...10 months on the diet is waaaaay toooooo long!

[zanacal]

It SO is!!