Heat on sperm and some personal ranting

[Throwaway_panther]

Thought I would post this as well as update since some of you had asked to be kept up to date on my story since not all of you can access the HT forums.

Cliffnotes: DH was recommended to see a urologist after our first IVF cycle showed a sperm problem. He also did a sperm fragmentation test. We found abnormal results on the latter, and DH came home saying they found a varicocele but "wanted to wait for the sperm results." They got those, immediately recommend an ultrasound.

Well yesterday we met with the doctor following the ultrasound. DH does not have a varicocele. The urologist actually is a huge proponent of fixing varicoceles for sperm health, which is fortunate since it's still controversial to fix.

But it just turns out that DH apparently misunderstood his first appointment and does not have a varicocele. However, the urologist said, "I already told your husband I think it's the high heat he works around." DH is an engineer who works at extreme cold and extreme hot temperatures occasionally to semi-frequently. Urologist also said he believes it's a full 6 months for sperm health to return to normal, much more than the 72 day life cycle. Which would put us just now at maybe 7-8 months post that awful fever DH had back in August.

I also didn't realize exactly how hot DH worked at occasionally. He had told me it was 100F. The urologist said that DH had told him 65C... or 130-140F. And DH was doing it pretty regularly last summer and fall. As recently as November/December.

I was flabbergasted. "The sperm count? The oxidative stress?" The urologist just said, "I really think it's the heat. We have a lot of evidence backing up how much damage heat can do to sperm. It's WHY varicoceles are bad, because of the heat they cause."

We were referred on to an even more specialized urologist because trying to do anymore than we have (icing, supplements, lifestyle changes) is beyond his paygrade, he said. We will probably do another semen analysis, but the next appointment for this new urologist isn't until May 29.

DH sort of had a melt down and said he is done trying to do things to correct his sperm, would rather return to biking/running, is just not as invested in this as I am. Said, "We should look back at YOU for these losses" in such a way that even the urologist looked pretty appalled. And as we know -- I've been cleaned out and prodded and tested to oblivion. Two IVF cycles showed excellent embryos until Day 3/4, when sperm DNA takes over, and our REs and embryologists keep insisting it's either "bad luck" or a sperm issue that "we're not equipped to compensate for yet." DH having abnormal sperm markers associated with loss was about all we have to go on... so I guess we can only hope that the supplements, icing and lifestyle choices have been enough while his sperm's been replenishing since we're outside of the 6 month window.

But I'm feeling more and more like this really might be a fool's errand with my husband. It would be different if he was also supportive and understanding. But this is a man who was against IVF because "at least D&Cs are covered by insurance." And who has told me he can't stand being around me because of how sad I am all the time. He's literally asked if I could just fake smile around him because he's so miserable when I am sad. I don't cry or mope around the house. I've just lost my spirit along with all of these babies -- I still work, I cook, I clean, we have sex. I just don't have my spirit anymore. And he'd rather I hide my grief than help me cope with it.

He doesn't even refer to them as "our losses" -- he says they are my losses.

I'm at a loss. But thought I would update for those who have missed my sharing on FB and in the HT forums here. And to maybe give a word of warning to the pink swayers on how bad heat can really be for sperm :(

[ksmom]

I'm so, so, sorry your DH is acting this way. After everything you've been through, he should be supportive of you. It sounds like he's really detached himself from all of this and doesn't understand why you feel the way that you do. It's not fair for him to treat this like it's your problem and yours alone. He should know you guys are a team as a husband and wife, not completely separate individuals that go through their own shit alone. He may have made himself emotionally unavailable because he's hurting too and just won't admit it. Maybe it's too upsetting for him to think it's his sperm that's the problem. He needs to be there for you though, no matter what.

[Mommy2apples]

Oh throwaway ☹️ so many hugs to you.


6/2003 [emoji1349]2/2009 [emoji1407] 12/2012 [emoji1349]4/2015 [emoji1406] 2015 [emoji1356] 2016 [emoji1413] The Lord Answered my [emoji1317] 2017🤰due June 2018, with a healthy [emoji1405][emoji166]to fit into our crazy bunch, and Complete our Family![emoji7][emoji8]

https://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/50268a

[SoFullofHope]

.

[atomic sagebrush]

can someone bump this for me??

[4blue2pink]

Thankyou for updating here TP :heart: ive been thinking about you.. im so sorry that your dh is acting this way, it could well be that he cant cope with the issue being solely to do with him (and directly linked to his "masculinity") and its coming out as him attacking and blaming you :( either way it isnt ok
on another note is this new discovery about the heat being the issue rather than anything medical a positive thing? it sounds like it can be solved given enough time for the sperm to regenerate? (environmental rather than medical) or have i completely misunderstood? (im sorry if i have) i truly hope that your dh agree's to keep going with the lifestyle changes and that given enough time things can right themselves, after everything you have both been through there needs to be a happy ending to all of this, there just has to be :heart: stay strong we are all here for you, love and blue dust coming your way xx

[2blue1pink]

This is tough. I think in a lot of cases GD is one-sided or maybe like 80% one partner and 20% the other. I know that's the case in our marriage. I don't think, if we hadn't had a dd who died AND we didn't have the insurance coverage, I would have been able to talk DH into going HT. After the first round, I wasn't sure I could talk him into a second, and after this second I really had my doubts he would have gone for a third. (I think he would have actually.) When I called to tell him our only embryo is a normal XX, he was like "ok great. Which kid are you picking up today?" :rolleyes: [I totally called him out on it but still...] He is cool with having another kid and also totally cool to be done. I got him to take olive leaf extract 2x, as in 2 days. (He wasn't purposely not taking it but only when I reminded him and brought it to him. I had too many of my own meds to manage.)

Anyway, sorry I mostly have commiseration more than advice.

[atomic sagebrush]

Hey, thanks for your patience. I couldn't find this post anywhere so I had to go hunt it down.

I really feel, sometimes, that this process brings out the worst in guys. It just reveals that at the end of it all, this matters more to us than them, and that's ok, I guess, but it's not easy on us at all.
I have found again and again that whenever I really need my husband, not only is he not there for me at all, but he quickly becomes the biggest problem I have. With the gender disappointment, miscarriage, and some medical problems I'm dealing with(I'm comparing these in my mind to IVF rounds, all the poking and prodding and appointments and scans and money spent) it's been really hard to carry on with marriage knowing that my role here is apparently to entertain my husband no matter what I feel like, and never harsh his buzz and the stuff that I am struggling with is my stuff to struggle with on my own while also being super happy and charming to the whole outside world when I want to die inside (and this seems very much like what you're dealing with, too).

It is very isolating, that the person who is not only supposed to be your best friend and partner in all this, is kind of revealed to be mostly in it for themselves, if that makes sense, and we are bascially means to an end to them to be used for their own happiness, and then turned off when not making them happy, as if we are an app on a phone or something. It's almost like a cosmic joke, being sold this bill of goods about a husband as protector, friend, lover (ugh I hate that word, can't come up with another off the top of my head tho) but to end up in a position where none of those things really seem true and yet we're supposed to act like everything is ok and do all the stuff that we are supposed to do as wives when we aren't getting anything back in return.

So all this is to say, I have no advice, but you're not alone. I wish I did. :heart:

[Throwaway_panther]

I'm sorry atomic, I never saw your response and really appreciate it and what all of you had to say. I hope things have improved for you :(

I dug this up because I feel like I never should have ignored this issue. As many of you know, I was pregnant as I wrote this and didn't know it yet -- and miraculously it's seemed to stick. Tomorrow is my anatomy scan and I have felt calm about my decision to not find out gender: this is my last possible baby in my 20s, the tail end of the age gap I wanted for DD and any sibling, SHE is obsessed with babies and I know is desperate for a playmate, etc. I have been more mentally stable than i ever expected with this pregnancy despite all the anxiety over loss AND GD I would have expected; even my therapist has been pleasantly surprised. No mood swings, no anger, no fights with DH (haha supporting the OWT of boy right? I wish).

DH has become very emotionally and verbally abusive over the last week. He is very stressed about work and his family, and I've tried so hard to be patient and support him. But he has lashed out so severely (and so much like he has over time) that I am facing the fact that I am alone and might as well be alone. The issues here and that were in this original post have never gone away, and 2 couples counselors and him seeing an individual therapist all resulted in him eventually not going anymore whenever they started saying things he didn't want to hear... lots of signs I should have been paying more attention to, right?

But now what? All I could think about was that I can't bring another girl into this world, especially if I am alone and all i wanted was a boy. I was having this baby for DD; not terminating because DH would never forgive me. But what have I been putting myself through here.

There is so, so much more to this. I am just so exhausted by life and all its punches.

[ksmom]

Gosh I'm so sorry things haven't improved. It's sad to hear when times get tough, people push their loved ones away instead of coming together. He's obviously in massive denial and doesn't want to face the truth, no matter how painful. That really freaking sucks TP, I'm so sorry. :( I so wish it could get better for you and for your DH. I've been hoping so much that this is your boy. :hug2:

[atomic sagebrush]

Eh, I've been married for 27 years and it is what it is at this point. I learned over time not to expect him to ever meet my needs for, well, really anything, and worse, to actively stand in my way as I try to meet my own needs. I mention all this not to have a pity party but to let you know you are not alone dealing with these issues. It does feel at times (many times) that being alone is actually preferable because you're alone anyway and at least theres not someone actively dragging you down and giving you some other massive amount of things to deal with in addition to all the other things you've already got on your plate. But, I muddle through it somehow and you will too, for as long as you can. :hugs: And at such a point where you can't do it any more, then you can reevaluate and make a different choice if it comes to that. Or, maybe things will get better and you find a way to make it work that doesn't crush your soul and you come out on the other side. No matter what you and your kids are going to be ok.

What I want you to try to focus on here and now is that you're doing this for YOU. Not for DD, not for DH, but for YOU, Panther. NO matter if this baby is a boy or a girl, it's for you. It is your personal baby, a gift you are giving to yourself. That's why they call it a rainbow baby, it is the reward for going through the dark clouds. YOu've been through a lot of s--- the last two years and it hasn't been fun, but this is NOT another bad thing that's happening, even if the baby is a girl, it's a good thing that's happening. And you're doing it from sheer selfishness as a reward for all the bad things that have happened.

Right now this baby is a present that is still wrapped up and it's hard to see the joy that comes with it. Right now all you can envision is the downsides and negatives that come from getting a present you're not entirely sure you want. But when you open it up, you'll be surprised over the course of time about how rewarding it's going to be. Nothing in life is ever all bad or even mostly, and our fears about the badness of unknown events are virtually always far beyond what the reality ends up being. I know so many people who had just as bad gender desire as you, or even worse; who were in very dark places for many years and unlike you they didn't have the wherewithal to handle it, now 10 years later it's like they're different people and if I hadn't been on this journey with them I would never have known that they ever had doubts or disappointments. Their fears were worse than what the reality is and over time they learned that GD is not a destination that you stay in forever, it's a temporary pit stop on the way to someplace much better (whether or not you ever get your desired gender).

You are one of the toughest, strongest (sometimes maddeningly so, :)) chicks I've met on this journey. I KNOW you can handle anything that is headed your way, come what may. You got this. And it's not because you're so selfless you're doing all this for other people to please them, it's because you're a badass who can do anything and it's not going to be so bad anyway. Not only are you very well equipped to handle another baby, boy or girl, with or without your husband's love and support. It's because it is going to be awesome for YOU and you're going to enjoy it more than you ever dreamed possible. :heart:

[2blue1pink]

I am sorry you are going through this. I agree with atomic, you are strong and will get through this, come what may.

[4blue2pink]

i hope you are ok TP :heart: i know its your scan today, whatever you decide (team green or find out) we are all here ready to help however we can. i must admit my dh becomes most difficult/negative and least supportive right when i really really dont need it, and he does it like clockwork right after i have a baby.

he eventually gets over himself and goes back to normal but its got to the point where i know having a baby doesnt give me any break from doing all the housework, cooking and childcare, it just means ive gotta do it all while dealing with the newborn and being completely ignored by "His Lordship" for however long he needs to get out of it.

prime example.. i was walking the school run on less than 1 hours sleep with 5 kids in tow and a newborn in a sling less than 24 hours after DD2 was born, where was dh? sat on the couch at home.

i hope everything goes well at your scan :heart: and that things between you and dh improve.

[atomic sagebrush]

It's almost like they know when we're on the ropes they have the leeway to act however they like or something. :/

[Throwaway_panther]

Thank you everyone, and atomic you almost made me cry!

I am both saddened and relieved by all of your words. I am glad I'm not alone, but am so heartbroken over why we are all facing this with our partners. Does it never get better? Is this it?

DH did end up coming to scan (where they told us they couldn't even find gender for their own records!! we actually have to go back because baby was so stubborn they couldn't get all pics needed!), but has still been cold, withdrawn and perhaps worst, when he does talk to me, he acts like nothing happened and certainly has never and will never apologize for anything. He's excited about the new baby but I just sit there feeling like just a vessel since he doesn't give a shit about me...

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Oh ladies! How can men be that way? I am so sorry you all are dealing with such rotten husbands! TP I hope your next scan shows a healthy baby for sure and maybe even a little something between the legs! Praying for you *hugs*

4blue2pink- so after 2 sways, what did you find that worked for you? Do you have a link to your sways?

[atomic sagebrush]

It's a stereotype but I think men just need to feel like they're the center of the universe to some greater or lesser extent. Anything that distracts us from that cause of putting them first, irritates them and they just don't seem capable of really putting our feelz before their own. But luckily I talk to enough other women so I know it's #notallmen LOL. (which is good, because let me tell ya, it doesn't help a boy mom's gender disappointment any :/) Some guys have literally moved heaven and earth for their wives on this crazy trip we are all on. Others haven't done much of anything at all or even stand in their wives' ways. Many of these people you never even talk to; the people who are the worst off often never even post publicly. There are people out there who have horrific GD whose husbands won't TTC again under any circumstances. :p So there is that, at least. Most of us on here, even when our husbands aren't supportive, haven't actively moved to stop us.

Some guys are more prone to falling into these bad habits while others are mostly ok and then the stress of all this TTC stuff brings out the dark side. Maybe they're just not well equipped to offer support, like they don't know how to. Other guys can handle it for a while and then just run out of steam. But then maybe they can get their batteries recharged and hopefully return to form. If he's historically a good guy that changes things and my very great hope is that this is just a bump in the road for you guys.

Now, as for the why...(atomic pulls out soapbox) I've given this issue so much thought over the last 2 decades and what I believe is this. Most of us are living in a culture where men have pretty much been told for the last three generations that they are entitled to indulge themselves in most every way. Even so far as to say that if they feel deprived, unfulfilled, or unhappy - even temporarily - in any given situation or that they're not living their best life. Dissatisfaction is not something to be weathered or corrected over time but a sign that one is on the wrong path totally and the grass is always greener on the other path.

Well, to be fair, we all have been told that, but it seems like the message resonates more with men than ladies. I just feel like too many guys take situations of difficulty WAY too seriously and have literally no coping skills for anyone's negative/dark emotions, especially their own. So they get annoyed with anyone having feelings/emotions since they don't know how to deal with them at all, furious if the emotions dare to continue and/or if anyone asks them to help fix the situation in any way, and then they'll shut down totally whenever faced with any negative emotions that they themselves experience (including feelings of disappointment in themselves for being unable to "fix" our problems...u know men, they love to fix).

I sometimes wonder if we are expecting people who are fundamentally ill-equipped through no fault of their own, to function on an adult level when they've never even had any kind of role models or education on how to do that, and in fact instead have been fed a fairly steady diet of dudebros indulging their every whim instead being painted as mankind's pinnacle achievement. And additionally, they're told again and again in pretty much every form of media that women are here to help make those whims a reality without ever asking anything in return (unless we are like, u know, being chased by Transformers or something.)

[Throwaway_panther]

Wow, insert applause gif here. This is exactly it, atomic. I'm doing an amen hand here.

DH is actually a bit infamous for going down these weird binges when he feels dissatisfaction -- he dives full in and reads a bunch of philosophy books and then quotes from them ad nauseum for a few months then stops. Then whenever the next time something happens, he does it again, just with a new realm of philosophy. It drives everyone crazy, and sure enough for the last few months he was doing it again (this time I'm pretty sure work stress drove him to it).

In the meantime, he becomes this condescending asshole during these moments and loses what little empathy he has already!

Your description of men culturally and so on is also big one in his family, and I see it in his (very misogynistic) father. Luckily DH is not this, but I definitely observe how DH treats me versus DD (much like his own father takes advantage of their mother but treats their one DD like she is Aphrodite incarnate).

Your last point even informs my own GD! Obviously I've waxed poetic pretty often on here about the million reasons I want a boy, but a big drive has always been to hopefully influence the next generation of men to not be like their forefathers. So I feel you on how seeing this affects boy mom GD -- it affects my own, even!