Sora TTC a Boy Sway Attempt

[atomic sagebrush]

I do think it can play a part but it also may have been partly hormonal. Let's cut back some on the salt and see if it clears up, if not we should get you in for a blood pressure check. :)

[LMSM]

How are you Sora???

[Sora]

Feeling anxious today. I crossed paths at the lab with some moms from my daughters' school. Turns out we were all getting a blood-check for the same reasons, ie : pregnancy. Some I didn't even know were ttc and they are so thin they don't show at all. Turns out I'm the youngest pregnancy, they are further along than I am. Turns out they also already had their gender scans and all are pregnant with boys after one or two girls...

Maybe that should encourage me ? But it's actually the reverse. I've been getting increasingly stressed and depressed as my day goes.

I don't want to be the failure, the one stain on the "team"'s spotless record of successfully if not consciously swaying blue. And I realize also... if I get an opposite, that means YEARS of having to watch all these moms with their long-awaited sons in their arms while I'm holding a third daughter. This will be mental torture, this frightens me even more than hearing the new of my baby's gender.

And no I can't talk about this to someone. Swaying is taboo, swaying is illegal. It equates you to a nazi. If I talk, even to a shrink, I can end up locked up in an asylum. It's actually a very real threat. And there's no getting out if you get sent there by a doctor. The family can't appeal to the decision. Only the prefect of the region can cancel it.

I know we are advised not to sway if we can't stand the idea of an opposite, but I have no other option. I'm not strong enough to accept fate. High Tech is illegal, NIPT is illegal. It will cost me a fortune to do them abroad and though I'm willing to go that far if needed, I'm not sure I can afford it. Nor can I afford to have five to ten children in the hopes of finally getting a boy.

Well I know I'm emotional because hormones and that it is of no use to worry now because it's done, nothing will change and I'm just feeling uselessly awful. But while I admit I did account for having a girl and feeling bad watching blue moms (which is sad enough already), I had never thought of the possibility of having ALL my pregnant pink neighboors give birth to boys the very year of my BFP ! There is something so hurtful about watching someone you know well have a baby boy vs some stranger in the city... Sometimes it almost feels like some divine threat, like "See ? I will send everyone their DG EXCEPT you ! Have fun !".

It already happened to me two years ago, people getting married, pregnant, winning the lottery and stuff without trying while I had to deal with assault and financial loss. It was horrible then, all these good news while I was going through such hard times alone, being accused of not being happy enough for others, being selfish, when I was not being victim-shamed for the assault...
I won't be able to endure that kind of unbalanced situation twice.

Sorry for the wall of text and the whining but had to dump that somewhere. Thank you for enduring it.

[atomic sagebrush]

I "have to" tell people not to sway if they can't stand the idea of an opposite just to weed out the people who approach swaying as a sure thing, but believe me, I completely understand there are a LOT of people, particularly blue swayers who are in a pretty dire set of circumstances - can't go HT and MUST have a boy for cultural or personal reasons. I do totally get that and please do not let my blanket warning I have to give out, be upsetting to you. I completely and totally understand that in many cases even when you feel you can't accept an opposite, it may be worth the risk.

For what it is worth, that is still the thing that bothers me to this very day. Everyone I know in the real world just seems to be handed a boy and a girl just that easily, and then they act as if they've cured cancer just by getting pregnant twice and happening to get lucky. It absolutely feels very personal, when it took me 20 years to get one girl, and I had to move heaven and earth to do it. That has gotten better as my kids are older (my 4th boy is just lovely and I have come to think of him as a "bonus" I would not have gotten otherwise) but it does still sting me sometimes. :heart:

[Sora]

I "have to" tell people not to sway if they can't stand the idea of an opposite just to weed out the people who approach swaying as a sure thing, but believe me, I completely understand there are a LOT of people, particularly blue swayers who are in a pretty dire set of circumstances - can't go HT and MUST have a boy for cultural or personal reasons. I do totally get that and please do not let my blanket warning I have to give out, be upsetting to you. I completely and totally understand that in many cases even when you feel you can't accept an opposite, it may be worth the risk.

For what it is worth, that is still the thing that bothers me to this very day. Everyone I know in the real world just seems to be handed a boy and a girl just that easily, and then they act as if they've cured cancer just by getting pregnant twice and happening to get lucky. It absolutely feels very personal, when it took me 20 years to get one girl, and I had to move heaven and earth to do it. That has gotten better as my kids are older (my 4th boy is just lovely and I have come to think of him as a "bonus" I would not have gotten otherwise) but it does still sting me sometimes. :heart:

Don't worry atomic, I understand the reasons behind your warning and it's not unsettling to me. You're right to remind people that things are never 100%, not to get their hopes too high for fear of terrible disappointment if it fails. It's the same with a treatment, with chir... You "have to" warn people that it may not work, that it may kill them still, even if the chances of that are less than 10%. It worries people more about little cures or going to a hospital but of course you can't let them think it will be 100% all roses and sunshines.
Tbh, we can still die in childbirth, we are told but there are so so many mothers here, so many men and women, who still think it CAN'T happen, it's only 3% or something... Imagine if we were told it was 100% without risks, the shock and betrayal would feel a hundred times worse.

Yeah it is bothersome, understandable but bothersome. When things have come easily for you, be it children, marriage, money, whatever, you have a hard time understanding it doesn't come that easily for other people. You have to make a real effort to just think that it may not be their fault, to remember that there's a part of luck in everything. And so many people are too lazy to make that small effort. In doing so they hurt unlucky others much more sometimes than what has already befallen them.

Maybe some people sway. They won't tell and I can't know. They may fear as much as I the taboo that hovers over it. But some just don't think. They wake up and decide "I want another child" and on they go, switching gender on their way to BFP. It looks so easy that it is generally thought as normal, we are almost literally taught that's the way things should naturally go. You understand it when having a second child of the same gender as the first. The surprised stares, the gaping mouths. As subtle as they are, you see that maybe 95% of people you tell are honestly shocked into a few seconds of silence that it didn't switch. And then you think you may be broken after all. And THEY think you must be too. It's obvious in their little "jokes" : "oh you must have quite the recipe for boy/girl", "aw too bad you can't exchange babies like you can a gift that was offered to you twice by mistake".
"It's not natural" they are thinking "something is wrong with her", "what else is wrong with her ?", "is it contagious ?"...
For the more rude ones, you can almost hear "is she even human ?".

And yeah, they act as if they cured cancer. You can see that when they take time to come and hurl abuse at people swaying on forums. It's very frequent on french forums, the illegal side of the thing making them think they are some kind of "maternity" vigilantes.
Cherry on the cake when the abuse comes from the sterile ones, the neighbooring "IVF" forums. I've yet to see swayers take time off to go harrass sterile couples. I've seen plenty of the latters coming to harrass us instead of checking their next IVF appointment. We shut up because we think about the hell they are going through and don't want to add to the pain.

[4blue2pink]

im keeping everything crossed that this is your boy Sora :heart: im in the UK and talking about swaying is a no-go here too.
I remember when i had my first 4 boys (the last 3 after we had lost our longed for girl) everyone was pregnant with girls, all my friends were having girls and most didnt even want a baby.
These babies were drunken 1 night stand conceptions with men they had never met before or "whoops" baby's with their new boyfriend. There was even one girl who id known all through school who got 2 perfect healthy girls during this time while being a heroin addict!! It was agonising watching them all effortlessly get girls while i was the only one with boys and not just 1 or 2 but 4, i also felt like something must be wrong with me.
how long until you can find out gender?

[Thirdtimelucky01]

Hi Sora! I’m keeping my fingers crossed for you too and sending you all my blue dust!!! Let us know how you go!!! Xxx


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LMSM]

Sora, i was thinking about you just Now and thought I’d check the forum...and here is a post from you ( bizarre timing hehe) ..congrats, didn’t know you were pregnant! Did you get my PM a while back??
When are you due?
I really hope you get your boy :babym:
:bluesperm::ttcboy::xy::fingers:
I understand your angst..been there, done that... know that if it’s a girl, beyond the stereotypes, the taboos, the comments... You will love that baby fiercely , hang on to that, please .. ((I was in a dark place, some of my in laws and other people in France were excessively negative about #3 BUT I have found some peace now she’s almost two, she’s my surprise gem, my cuddle koala.. I could never regret her. I do miss “MY” son, but I hope that one day I’ll have lots of grandsons and sons in law etc ... I still hope for #4 to be a boy, once we do ttc...but will be team green to just enjoy my last pregnancy!))
And if it’s a boy, cerise sur le gâteau! ;) please keep us posted

[Sora]

im keeping everything crossed that this is your boy Sora :heart: im in the UK and talking about swaying is a no-go here too.
I remember when i had my first 4 boys (the last 3 after we had lost our longed for girl) everyone was pregnant with girls, all my friends were having girls and most didnt even want a baby.
These babies were drunken 1 night stand conceptions with men they had never met before or "whoops" baby's with their new boyfriend. There was even one girl who id known all through school who got 2 perfect healthy girls during this time while being a heroin addict!! It was agonising watching them all effortlessly get girls while i was the only one with boys and not just 1 or 2 but 4, i also felt like something must be wrong with me.
how long until you can find out gender?

I understand so much 4blue2pink ! Two years ago that was kinda what happened to me. We were TTC already and yelding BFN after BFN and then suddenly, all around us, people were getting married and having sons. These were people who were very vocal about never getting married or having children, who never missed an occasion to criticize marriage as a boring custom of the past or children as an annoyance that cost money ! They tended to mock my dreams of getting married (religiously) and having more than one child. And suddenly, while I was still begging atheist DH to go through with a religious wedding (cause it is important to me, just having a paper saying we're husband and wife feels lacking) and trying to convince him that swaying was not just a weird idea, here these people go and suddenly change their minds (though sometimes they were pressured into it by their religious family or in-laws). And here I am, receiving their pictures of fairy tale weddings (with "coincidentally" every little detail I had ever dreamed for mine) and gorgeous baby boys... It was agony. I felt a mix of anger and pain and DH didn't help because he ended up saying "Can you just stop envying other people's lives FFS ? Who cares what they are up to ?". Worse was my BFF from high school, who had been unfaithfull to her then fiance, then dumped him because he wanted to go back to France while she wanted to stay and live in UK... But when he came begging her to take him back, with a brand new high-paid job and a house, suddenly she was all okay about a church wedding (despite being an atheist who loathed churches) and having a kid (despite being one of these people who claimed soundly that children were a pain). It honestly killed me inside so I can imagine only too well how you felt having to watch heroin addicts get girls !

But now you have them, it must be a relief. I wish I could one day feel that relief and I'm so scared I will never ever get to know that peace of mind.

[Sora]

Hi Sora! I’m keeping my fingers crossed for you too and sending you all my blue dust!!! Let us know how you go!!! Xxx


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you Third ! I'll only get the gender scan in one month and a half :nails:

[Sora]

Sora, i was thinking about you just Now and thought I’d check the forum...and here is a post from you ( bizarre timing hehe) ..congrats, didn’t know you were pregnant! Did you get my PM a while back??
When are you due?
I really hope you get your boy :babym:
:bluesperm::ttcboy::xy::fingers:
I understand your angst..been there, done that... know that if it’s a girl, beyond the stereotypes, the taboos, the comments... You will love that baby fiercely , hang on to that, please .. ((I was in a dark place, some of my in laws and other people in France were excessively negative about #3 BUT I have found some peace now she’s almost two, she’s my surprise gem, my cuddle koala.. I could never regret her. I do miss “MY” son, but I hope that one day I’ll have lots of grandsons and sons in law etc ... I still hope for #4 to be a boy, once we do ttc...but will be team green to just enjoy my last pregnancy!))
And if it’s a boy, cerise sur le gâteau! ;) please keep us posted

Hi LMSM ! A PM ? I'm not sure. I think I received and answered each and everyone you sent so if you have sent another recently, I may not have gotten it ?

Yeah it's true you went there with your first sway. But it seems you may be able to attempt for #4.

DH is saying he is scared about having four kids so this might be our very last chance and now it's on the way... I would have maybe been able to get through it had I been the only one in the neighboor TTC around that time. But like I said, yesterday I met some other moms whose girls go to the same school as mine (so we meet basically every day, either at school or in the park) and... they all TTC, all got BFP and since they're further along than I am, already got gender scans... which were all blue ! The fact that these are pink moms that I meet and will meet everyday for years to come is what's killing me more than the fear of having failed my sway. It's something to sway, fail, and fight the comments and taunts and depression on your own while envying strangers you encounter on the street... It will be something on another level to have to meet and talk, every little day, to successfull pink moms-turned-purple moms. Like being knifed daily. I'm not strong enough to bear that kind of pain cause I know much too well how it feels already.

Little story goes that when I was 20, my boyfriend of 5 years whom I was supposed to move in with dumped me by email and at the same time, coincidentally, all my best friends found their soulmates -> hence moving in, getting engaged, even TTC for the ones most in a hurry. So sure, back then I still had lots of time, lots of opportunities and stuff and I did meet DH "only" 3 years later... But during these 3 years, it hurt so much.

Maybe I'll love a third girl ? But I tried the thought about "son-in-laws" and "grandsons" and it just makes me more sad. It's all well and such but these will be other women's sons. I'll never be number 1 in their hearts, only 2, 3, even 4... And I'm very tired of being 2, 3, 4... These won't be my sons. There will always be another woman. And I don't want there to be another woman, unless it's their wife because it's natural.

Also I've seen first hand how faithful and dutiful sons can be to their moms, even when the latters are junkies, alcoholics, mentally ill, abusive... I've helped plenty of my male friends deal with these "mothers" that were only "mothers" in name. I helped them clean them, put them to bed, nurse them, hold their hands while they were delirious and hurling abuse at everyone then noone. I held these boys while they cried on my shoulder, afraid of what the future might bring, torn at seeing their moms in such a state. Some did let go, got their mothers into an institution crying all the way and carried on with their lives. Some are still helping and nursing them and trying to get them clean even now. Heck, my DH IS one of them ! And it took his mother suddenly jumping on me and trying to hurt me in a delusional fit to finally convince him to let go, cut ties, let his uncle and grandfather handle things and get the two of us out of here !

Were all these men grateful for my help ? Yes absolutely. Did they help and love me in return ? Yes, without the shadow of a doubt. But obviously lmao, I am not so dear that they would dump everything for me in a heartbeat. That... is for their mothers only. And I don't blame them for it, I find it beautiful.
That's the kind of love I want and am hoping to get.

I witnessed all that, went through all that alongside men my age, then had to wake up in the morning and go study/work and got to hear daughters, you know ? Peaceful, wonderful, loving daughters all rainbows and sunshines... criticize their clean, hard-working, average mothers because they were never good enough for them. Never affectionate enough, never present enough, never pretty enough, never successful enough... Always bad and hurtful words associated to these women that gave them life, because these daughters didn't like the way they did their hair, because the poor moms mistakenly gifted them a book they already had, because these daughters found their moms hobbies and tastes laugheable... Me without a mom, out of comforting a man all night that was enduring hell because of an abusive or sick mother, had to listen to that. See them cut their moms out of their lives over little things, little fights... while my male friends were here, praying for their mothers to be clean and/or healthy enough to attend their wedding... Slowly I started to fear the very idea of having a daughter, because I know I'm already very very low on the scale of "perfect woman", so, what will my daughters say of me in a few years ? Will they be so ashamed, right or wrong, that they will want me out of their lives forever ?

And the only non-abusive daughters I met had another kind of problem : codependency. Very high scale too. I mean their mothers basically ruled their whole lives. Got to decide which man they could wed, where to go for their holidays, what clothes to wear, what food to it, what house to buy... I'm not joking, it was that bad ! Some mothers abused that power oc, but others were trying hard to get their daughter out of it, not knowing when their bond had become such that it led to that kind of situation... and not knowing how to resolve that. But each time they would try to put a little distance between their daughters and them, each-time they would enroll me to try and coach these girls to breath without someone else's okay, it ended in the girls having a total meltdown. Sometimes they were breaking down in such tiny pieces because "mommy" had not answered their call or told them to decide on their own that even I was afraid we would have to get them checked into a hospital. Scary scenes, scary times.

And now I have two daughters to worry about, maybe three >< ! So yeah, a son would be nice for a change. I will have other worries for him, but just the fact that they will be different is a relief somehow ? It's hard to explain.

[4blue2pink]

I understand so much 4blue2pink ! Two years ago that was kinda what happened to me. We were TTC already and yelding BFN after BFN and then suddenly, all around us, people were getting married and having sons. These were people who were very vocal about never getting married or having children, who never missed an occasion to criticize marriage as a boring custom of the past or children as an annoyance that cost money ! They tended to mock my dreams of getting married (religiously) and having more than one child. And suddenly, while I was still begging atheist DH to go through with a religious wedding (cause it is important to me, just having a paper saying we're husband and wife feels lacking) and trying to convince him that swaying was not just a weird idea, here these people go and suddenly change their minds (though sometimes they were pressured into it by their religious family or in-laws). And here I am, receiving their pictures of fairy tale weddings (with "coincidentally" every little detail I had ever dreamed for mine) and gorgeous baby boys... It was agony. I felt a mix of anger and pain and DH didn't help because he ended up saying "Can you just stop envying other people's lives FFS ? Who cares what they are up to ?". Worse was my BFF from high school, who had been unfaithfull to her then fiance, then dumped him because he wanted to go back to France while she wanted to stay and live in UK... But when he came begging her to take him back, with a brand new high-paid job and a house, suddenly she was all okay about a church wedding (despite being an atheist who loathed churches) and having a kid (despite being one of these people who claimed soundly that children were a pain). It honestly killed me inside so I can imagine only too well how you felt having to watch heroin addicts get girls !

But now you have them, it must be a relief. I wish I could one day feel that relief and I'm so scared I will never ever get to know that peace of mind.

Yes! and even though they never wanted it it just comes to them effortlessly doesnt it!! my dh was in agreement with the Dr who when we lost our baby girl told me i couldnt carry girls, so there was a whole lot of "your never going to have a living girl" coming from dh. Yes seeing the addict get 2 perfect healthy girls while taking drugs during pregnancy was agonising, our baby girl died despite me not doing anything i shouldnt, while she took lots of drugs including heroin, drank heavily and smoked all the way through pregnancy and it apparently didnt cause any long-term harm! (#1 was born addicted and detoxed at birth im not sure about #2) both girls were taken from her and put into care till they are 18.

Yes having girls did bring relief but it didnt happen with our first living daughter like i thought it would, it only came when her sister was born 16 months later and made it so she wasnt the only girl. My mum had 1 brother no sisters and desperatly wanted 2 girls, had me but then was unable to have another so it kinda felt for me like this whole "having a girl and giving her a sister" thing hadnt happened for my grandma or my mum and i didnt want history to repeat again for another generation. So it was this added presssure that went beyond just having 1 girl for me. I just got extrememly lucky to have 2 girls one after the other, the 2 babies who have follwed them girls have both been boys so how we managed to have 2 girls in a row i'll never know!! but i am forever thankful that it did happen for me :heart: and i have everything crossed for the same relief to wash over you when you hopefully hear this is your boy :)

slightly off topic but in France are boys the more desired gender? Here in the UK its girls, girls are very openly preferred by everyone including midwives! and all girl families are seen as the gold standard, more so even than boy/girl or evenly mixed ones.

[Sora]

Yes! and even though they never wanted it it just comes to them effortlessly doesnt it!! my dh was in agreement with the Dr who when we lost our baby girl told me i couldnt carry girls, so there was a whole lot of "your never going to have a living girl" coming from dh. Yes seeing the addict get 2 perfect healthy girls while taking drugs during pregnancy was agonising, our baby girl died despite me not doing anything i shouldnt, while she took lots of drugs including heroin, drank heavily and smoked all the way through pregnancy and it apparently didnt cause any long-term harm! (#1 was born addicted and detoxed at birth im not sure about #2) both girls were taken from her and put into care till they are 18.

Yes having girls did bring relief but it didnt happen with our first living daughter like i thought it would, it only came when her sister was born 16 months later and made it so she wasnt the only girl. My mum had 1 brother no sisters and desperatly wanted 2 girls, had me but then was unable to have another so it kinda felt for me like this whole "having a girl and giving her a sister" thing hadnt happened for my grandma or my mum and i didnt want history to repeat again for another generation. So it was this added presssure that went beyond just having 1 girl for me. I just got extrememly lucky to have 2 girls one after the other, the 2 babies who have follwed them girls have both been boys so how we managed to have 2 girls in a row i'll never know!! but i am forever thankful that it did happen for me :heart: and i have everything crossed for the same relief to wash over you when you hopefully hear this is your boy :)

slightly off topic but in France are boys the more desired gender? Here in the UK its girls, girls are very openly preferred by everyone including midwives! and all girl families are seen as the gold standard, more so even than boy/girl or evenly mixed ones.

That sucks. It's somehow even worse : having girls so much women are praying for and not even being able to raise them because you fail so much as a human being. What a waste of everyone's needs, love and time ! Meanwhile we have pink swayers here who are getting desperate... :whip:

Oh right that may be because of your family history, you got the pressure of wanting not only one but two of your DG so it added a lot. But you were heard in the end and got them ^^ ! For my part I think God hates me and wants me to never grasp any of my dreams. Each time one was in reach, I would fail horribly due to something out of my control... and then, at the same time, people around me would get what I wanted without asking and easily, all at once, all of a sudden... It feels like a terrible curse and like a cruel taunt from high above. I don't know what I'm being punished for but I'm so tired of being punished. And I'm not even that much of a superstitious person. But I've had these kind of situations happen one time too many for me to believe it's just "coincidence".

Ah no haha ^^" ! No France is much much like UK and other western countries on that subject ! I'm the odd one out and heavily criticized for it when it's not DH being accused of forcing me to have a "maaaale heiiiir" (ironically, he wanted girls). And actually that's what makes it very hard to be a blue swayer in France. You can't even mention it. Pink swayers are a bit more accepted and supported and the family we have, two daughters, is the gold standard so people can't even understand why we would want to change that XD !

[LMSM]

Totally understand Sora, truly... and the fears you have, I have too! Oh how I have them too...
But because I’ve had GD 3times now, and because it’s not a given at all that we’ll even try again, or be able to conceive..I am trying to find solace in what I do have and what having “daughters only” might bring me over my lifetime.
It’s not any easier stil..no, especially when confronted to the comments, the jest, the others who DO have a son/ mix of genders.BUT I guess I can’t let it rule and ruin my life forever....I don’t want my girls to grow with a bitter Mummy, I may never have a son, so I need to get myself together (somehow!?) to hopefully create a long lasting bond with my daughters, one that will lead to a close but healthy relationship. I think daughters can be very critical of their mums yes...but there’s so many dynamics at play ( plus women tend to be like that...critical with themselves and others). Sons are often out in the role of women’s but mostly mummy’s protector, and they struggle getting away from that as growing up. Again, sooo many dynamics!
I know the hurt and it saddens me to know there’s someone else
Living this spiral of GD/hurt/ bitterness...it’s hard to shake.

Right now with the uncertainty, it’s hard to see anything but the worry of a failed sway possibility ..
But You may well be carrying your son for all you know! And I’ll be the one envying You ;)
When is baby due/ when is your t2 scan?

Ps: it’s funny my perception of France is pigeon pair is the gold standard, but boys are overall preferred so best have all boys over all girls?!
Maybe I’ve lived away from France too long? Lol or my FIL is a particularly misogynistic man....having said that, family or friends back my home ( and most people here too) have mostly been negative soooo :tissue::shrug:

[Sora]

Totally understand Sora, truly... and the fears you have, I have too! Oh how I have them too...
But because I’ve had GD 3times now, and because it’s not a given at all that we’ll even try again, or be able to conceive..I am trying to find solace in what I do have and what having “daughters only” might bring me over my lifetime.
It’s not any easier stil..no, especially when confronted to the comments, the jest, the others who DO have a son/ mix of genders.BUT I guess I can’t let it rule and ruin my life forever....I don’t want my girls to grow with a bitter Mummy, I may never have a son, so I need to get myself together (somehow!?) to hopefully create a long lasting bond with my daughters, one that will lead to a close but healthy relationship. I think daughters can be very critical of their mums yes...but there’s so many dynamics at play ( plus women tend to be like that...critical with themselves and others). Sons are often out in the role of women’s but mostly mummy’s protector, and they struggle getting away from that as growing up. Again, sooo many dynamics!
I know the hurt and it saddens me to know there’s someone else
Living this spiral of GD/hurt/ bitterness...it’s hard to shake.

Right now with the uncertainty, it’s hard to see anything but the worry of a failed sway possibility ..
But You may well be carrying your son for all you know! And I’ll be the one envying You ;)
When is baby due/ when is your t2 scan?

Ps: it’s funny my perception of France is pigeon pair is the gold standard, but boys are overall preferred so best have all boys over all girls?!
Maybe I’ve lived away from France too long? Lol or my FIL is a particularly misogynistic man....having said that, family or friends back my home ( and most people here too) have mostly been negative soooo :tissue::shrug:

T2 scan will be in one month and a half. Baby due either July 31st or August 1st.

Oh I guess when you look at it from an economic, commercial pov, pigeon pair is golden standard ? What do we see on Tv, advertisements, in magazines and so on ? Dad, Mom, Daughter, Son. But as for public opinion and stuff, even though there's still the idea that it's good and almost natural to have both without effort, if you ask people what their ideal, most united family would be like, they often say "Maybe it should be one with only daughters : less troublesome to raise than boys, more peaceful, better at studying, pretty, soft-spoken, and you will never have to go get them at the police station ever ! Not like boys who are rough, then rude, then become delinquants in their teens, making you worry and get grey hairs... and after that if things go wrong they become killers and rapist and dishonor you !".

So yeah, your in-laws preferring all boys are becoming quite the oddity, and I wouldn't get surprised if outside of your family circle, they get the pointed finger for such a "retarded and non-feminist opinion". I mean, I get plenty of criticism or weird stares whenever I say we would like a little boy to complete our family and we have already two girls ! It's not like I'm asking for ten boys and saying it's to "beat women into submission" or smth !

[LMSM]

T2 scan will be in one month and a half. Baby due either July 31st or August 1st.

Oh I guess when you look at it from an economic, commercial pov, pigeon pair is golden standard ? What do we see on Tv, advertisements, in magazines and so on ? Dad, Mom, Daughter, Son. But as for public opinion and stuff, even though there's still the idea that it's good and almost natural to have both without effort, if you ask people what their ideal, most united family would be like, they often say "Maybe it should be one with only daughters : less troublesome to raise than boys, more peaceful, better at studying, pretty, soft-spoken, and you will never have to go get them at the police station ever ! Not like boys who are rough, then rude, then become delinquants in their teens, making you worry and get grey hairs... and after that if things go wrong they become killers and rapist and dishonor you !".

So yeah, your in-laws preferring all boys are becoming quite the oddity, and I wouldn't get surprised if outside of your family circle, they get the pointed finger for such a "retarded and non-feminist opinion". I mean, I get plenty of criticism or weird stares whenever I say we would like a little boy to complete our family and we have already two girls ! It's not like I'm asking for ten boys and saying it's to "beat women into submission" or smth !

They haven’t my girls that's why lol they are loud, intense, independent, like rough play, my eldest is soooo defiant.... It is NOT a walk in the park :giggle:
Certainly they do not fit the stereotype of quiet, submissive, obedient girls - they love girly stuff, and can play nice but more often than not, they like to jump, run, be loud, climb, be up to mischief...While it’s hard now i know they will be strong women capable of facing the big wide world and take it head on ... :)
I reckon if I ever have a son he would feel soft and quiet in comparison hehe

I think, regardless of anything..people just find something to say: have two kids, why not one more? Only child, you should have a sibling! Have pigeon pair: you can now have a third without pressure/ why do you need a third?: have two, three more of the same gender: need to change husband, need the recipe?, gosh don’t tempt fate you’ll just have another one of the same, gosh you need to try again for that boy/girl..it is endless!

I do think the stereotype of PP lives on and strong..you were saying ads etc, that still is portrayed as the “norm”...
Is it weird that I’m kinda happy when I see other families with 3 girls? Yesterday at the playground, there was a dad with three girls a bit older than ours..so there was 6 girls screaming excitedly as they played together (loudddd but cute) and then a bit later his wife and eldest daughter joined them...with their newest baby, a 2 week old boy! I allllmost grilled her To know what she had done differently lol


Anyways am at work but I can’t wait for you to know and stop the agonising wait!
Have you been feeling ok otherwise? Are your girls aware of baby coming?
My dd1 was born on 30/7...was a good day :)

[Thirdtimelucky01]

Hi Sora, I read your previous comments and just wanted to say that everyone’s preference for a gender and idea of to expect from a child of particular gender is totally different! For example when I told my mum I was Pregnant with my second son, she said that It’s very unfortunate because I’ll be lonely when I’m older - boys never look after their mothers when they grow up and almost never visit! Now I must say that I totally disagree with that statement because having two daughters is by no means a guarantee of visitors in your house and being looked after when you are old! I love my mother but due to certain things that happened between us over the course of my life we are not close. And my sister doesn’t even live in the same country as us! So we will see I guess who is right!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sora]

They haven’t my girls that's why lol they are loud, intense, independent, like rough play, my eldest is soooo defiant.... It is NOT a walk in the park :giggle:
Certainly they do not fit the stereotype of quiet, submissive, obedient girls - they love girly stuff, and can play nice but more often than not, they like to jump, run, be loud, climb, be up to mischief...While it’s hard now i know they will be strong women capable of facing the big wide world and take it head on ... :)
I reckon if I ever have a son he would feel soft and quiet in comparison hehe

I think, regardless of anything..people just find something to say: have two kids, why not one more? Only child, you should have a sibling! Have pigeon pair: you can now have a third without pressure/ why do you need a third?: have two, three more of the same gender: need to change husband, need the recipe?, gosh don’t tempt fate you’ll just have another one of the same, gosh you need to try again for that boy/girl..it is endless!

I do think the stereotype of PP lives on and strong..you were saying ads etc, that still is portrayed as the “norm”...
Is it weird that I’m kinda happy when I see other families with 3 girls? Yesterday at the playground, there was a dad with three girls a bit older than ours..so there was 6 girls screaming excitedly as they played together (loudddd but cute) and then a bit later his wife and eldest daughter joined them...with their newest baby, a 2 week old boy! I allllmost grilled her To know what she had done differently lol


Anyways am at work but I can’t wait for you to know and stop the agonising wait!
Have you been feeling ok otherwise? Are your girls aware of baby coming?
My dd1 was born on 30/7...was a good day :)

Nor do they have mine ! I remember a friend, who had one boy then, calling to check on me and hearing my grumpy DD1 scream and rant and babbles in the background and she said, horrified "Is that your girl ? OMG my son has NEVER made so much noise ! Nor are his eventual screams as high and ear-splitting ! How can you stand that ?".

have two, three more of the same gender: need to change husband, need the recipe?, gosh don’t tempt fate you’ll just have another one of the same,

This ! I heard that so much and still hear it, that's why I didn't tell anyone about this pregnancy and wants to hide it for as long as possible.

And no, it's not weird ? Whenever I saw families walking by with two girls/a boy I felt hopeful. When I saw families with two girls I felt relieved but not for long... When I see mothers with PP or sons I do want to grill them too. Since it's taboo I just try to feel them up on diet and sex, women will rant about it anytime if they think you're after advice for your own weight or love life ! As far as I know, blue moms around were very into fruits and meat diet wise, having them many times a day (and still being so thin GRRRRR) ! They were shocked to learn I could go so long without both. And one other common thing, they hate dairy. A bit of cheese or one light yoghurt is okay but not the rest and for the longest time until I found blue moms here having lots of dairy, I thought this was the number 1 problem.
About sex life, I think they are more or less regular ? DH had more success getting something out of their men but it seems they were at it more than us ^^"...

Otherwise, hm no, not okay, this pregnancy is hard on me, got the most awful nauseas and had to listen to the many "oh if there are nauseas, then it's a girl for sure, looks like you failed". And now going into T2, I'm feeling more and more emotional and worried. I miss the unexplained anger of T1 tbh, at least it gave me strenght (from week 7 to 12, I had become insanely agressive).

Yes the girls know about the baby, saw the pictures of my first scan (btw if anyone else feels confident at guessing despite the bluriness and trickiness... I posted them on the nub theory section, 13+1 thread under my ID). Since scan is black and white and looks eerie, they call it the "ghost baby". Wanted to know if it had a name.

[Sora]

Hi Sora, I read your previous comments and just wanted to say that everyone’s preference for a gender and idea of to expect from a child of particular gender is totally different! For example when I told my mum I was Pregnant with my second son, she said that It’s very unfortunate because I’ll be lonely when I’m older - boys never look after their mothers when they grow up and almost never visit! Now I must say that I totally disagree with that statement because having two daughters is by no means a guarantee of visitors in your house and being looked after when you are old! I love my mother but due to certain things that happened between us over the course of my life we are not close. And my sister doesn’t even live in the same country as us! So we will see I guess who is right!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It’s very unfortunate because I’ll be lonely when I’m older - boys never look after their mothers when they grow up and almost never visit!

This is what I hear constantly whenever I express sadness over not having a boy or that I want to try and have one. As if people were trying VERY hard to change my mind. Just feels like multiple curses, as if they're wishing for me to fail (or end up with a serial killer for a son) just to feel justified in their views of men.

But sure, there are, know of some who never visit...

I've seen blue moms say they were told that girls cost much more to raise and they're lucky to have boys ? Sounds weird to me tbh. First time I heard of one gender costing more than the other ? I mean each time I heard someone talk about money and children, it was more general, like "children cost a lot of money, why would you want any ?".

[LMSM]

Nor do they have mine ! I remember a friend, who had one boy then, calling to check on me and hearing my grumpy DD1 scream and rant and babbles in the background and she said, horrified "Is that your girl ? OMG my son has NEVER made so much noise ! Nor are his eventual screams as high and ear-splitting ! How can you stand that ?".

have two, three more of the same gender: need to change husband, need the recipe?, gosh don’t tempt fate you’ll just have another one of the same,

This ! I heard that so much and still hear it, that's why I didn't tell anyone about this pregnancy and wants to hide it for as long as possible.

And no, it's not weird ? Whenever I saw families walking by with two girls/a boy I felt hopeful. When I saw families with two girls I felt relieved but not for long... When I see mothers with PP or sons I do want to grill them too. Since it's taboo I just try to feel them up on diet and sex, women will rant about it anytime if they think you're after advice for your own weight or love life ! As far as I know, blue moms around were very into fruits and meat diet wise, having them many times a day (and still being so thin GRRRRR) ! They were shocked to learn I could go so long without both. And one other common thing, they hate dairy. A bit of cheese or one light yoghurt is okay but not the rest and for the longest time until I found blue moms here having lots of dairy, I thought this was the number 1 problem.
About sex life, I think they are more or less regular ? DH had more success getting something out of their men but it seems they were at it more than us ^^"...

Otherwise, hm no, not okay, this pregnancy is hard on me, got the most awful nauseas and had to listen to the many "oh if there are nauseas, then it's a girl for sure, looks like you failed". And now going into T2, I'm feeling more and more emotional and worried. I miss the unexplained anger of T1 tbh, at least it gave me strenght (from week 7 to 12, I had become insanely agressive).

Yes the girls know about the baby, saw the pictures of my first scan (btw if anyone else feels confident at guessing despite the bluriness and trickiness... I posted them on the nub theory section, 13+1 thread under my ID). Since scan is black and white and looks eerie, they call it the "ghost baby". Wanted to know if it had a name.

Iben posted on your ultrasound scan...;)
Ghost baby, that is very cute !! I bet they’re excited :)
Sorry to hear you’ve been so sick..I think often the more pregnancies (hence the more kids at home and the more tired) the more one is likely to feel,sick.
I found that with my third I was sicker ( if that was possible lol) - I thought I had a boys cooking because I was sooo nervous/aggressive..nope, just hormones driving me mad, heightening EVERYTHING lol I truly think the sick not sick more sick less sick etc has no bearing on one gender or the other :)
I really hope it eases soon...!
Xx

[Sora]

Iben posted on your ultrasound scan...;)
Ghost baby, that is very cute !! I bet they’re excited :)
Sorry to hear you’ve been so sick..I think often the more pregnancies (hence the more kids at home and the more tired) the more one is likely to feel,sick.
I found that with my third I was sicker ( if that was possible lol) - I thought I had a boys cooking because I was sooo nervous/aggressive..nope, just hormones driving me mad, heightening EVERYTHING lol I truly think the sick not sick more sick less sick etc has no bearing on one gender or the other :)
I really hope it eases soon...!
Xx

Same I do believe the amount of symptoms you have at the beginning is related somehow to how tired you are. Yeah I admit I was wondering if the aggressivity was related but when looking for other stories, I found even girls' moms had that so...

But yeah really symptoms don't seem related to gender at all. It would be too easy XD !

[atomic sagebrush]

I often hear "but it has to be a boy because I feel agressive, so it must be testosterone" but the thing is, the baby does not even make testosterone at the start of pregnancy, and only makes high levels towards the end of pregnancy, and it appears to be the other hormones who create these feelings of aggressiveness (same with PMS which is down to fluctuations in estrogen and progesterone, not testosteron)

[Sora]

I often hear "but it has to be a boy because I feel agressive, so it must be testosterone" but the thing is, the baby does not even make testosterone at the start of pregnancy, and only makes high levels towards the end of pregnancy, and it appears to be the other hormones who create these feelings of aggressiveness (same with PMS which is down to fluctuations in estrogen and progesterone, not testosteron)

Yeah, it was really strange though ! For the others I felt rather depressed and for DD1, I became paranoid at the end of T2. Whenever I was outside, I would feel like I was being spyed on, followed. Once we were dining out with my husband and suddenly, I had this pressure, a circling thought, that the people around us were going to attack us. Totally illogical but I felt unsafe somehow ? Disappeared at T3. I've heard that it can happen, something to do with an old instinct you can found in animals too making the female warry about possible attacks from predators or something...

[atomic sagebrush]

Yep I had a pregnancy like that, very anxious about entirely ridiculous things like feeling I would somehow fall into the tires of cars passing by or people walking past the house!!!

[atomic sagebrush]

Oh whoops sorry didn't mean to hit send...at the end of the second trimester you are making a really large volume of blood and this reaches a peak at that point. It's the time when women are the most likely to become anemic and those of us (like me) who are prone to heart palpitations during pregnancy often have them at this stage of gestation so I would suspect it was probably linked to those kinds of changes. :)

[Sora]

Sorry everyone I failed. Thank you all for the support and love.

[atomic sagebrush]

You did not fail, sometimes the cards just don't go our way. I am so sorry that it did not go as we hoped, how can we help???

[Sora]

You did not fail, sometimes the cards just don't go our way. I am so sorry that it did not go as we hoped, how can we help???

I don't know. It's killing me. My worst fear came through and it's killing me. I ruined my body a bit more, put my health at risk, going through Corona for nothing. Just unbalanced my family more. Just won us the whispers and criticism and the stares. Just killed any social life I had left cause how will I face my neighboors and friends all pregnant with their boys.
I'm a mess, wondering what did I do wrong. Should I have called it off last fall ? I knew it was not a perfect month I should have postponed. Or maybe even before when it started to take too much time TTC. Should have known it looked bad for blue cause blue seems to be = immediate pregnancy.

We will have to go HT and the costs, the treatments, the travel is frightening. But I miss him too much.

I'm so enraged too. I hoped it would be behind me. To go shopping blue. I hoped I could give the little dresses away and now I will have to use them again and I want to burn them all.

[4blue2pink]

I don't know. It's killing me. My worst fear came through and it's killing me. I ruined my body a bit more, put my health at risk, going through Corona for nothing. Just unbalanced my family more. Just won us the whispers and criticism and the stares. Just killed any social life I had left cause how will I face my neighboors and friends all pregnant with their boys.
I'm a mess, wondering what did I do wrong. Should I have called it off last fall ? I knew it was not a perfect month I should have postponed. Or maybe even before when it started to take too much time TTC. Should have known it looked bad for blue cause blue seems to be = immediate pregnancy.

We will have to go HT and the costs, the treatments, the travel is frightening. But I miss him too much.

I'm so enraged too. I hoped it would be behind me. To go shopping blue. I hoped I could give the little dresses away and now I will have to use them again and I want to burn them all.

Sora :heart: i know i replied to you already (you must be sick of my posts!) but seeing what you have said about the dresses it took me back to when my GD was at its worst and i thought id share what i did just incase it helps in some small way.. I couldnt face the boy clothes or the blue stuff or worse people looking into the pram and seeing "another boy" i had all boys and our only daughter had died during pregnancy so the "oh god all boys / poor you how awful / dont you want a girl?!" type comments were literally killing me. Like you already said i also wanted to move away and live in the middle of nowhere just to avoid the comments and judgements or just never leave the house again.
So i stopped using "boy" clothes and dressed those babies in white, yellow and grey all gender-neutral colours for the first 9 months. To a stranger in the street they had no way of telling the gender which did lessen the comments and for me there was something about not having to face the boy baby clothes that somehow helped. I cant really explain it and it didnt stop my GD but it made it bareable to dress and then look after that baby, i wasnt being smacked in the face with "another boy" 24/7. If you cant face the dresses dont do the dresses, it wont do baby any harm :heart:

[tillytys]

Thats a great idea 4blue2pink!

Sora, could HT be in your future? I have seen ladies seek great comfort in planning their HT journey straight away when discovering they were not carrying their DG, it takes all the pressure off of this pregnancy and moves the goal to a further date thats all! there could be twin blues in the future:)

[Sora]

Thats a great idea 4blue2pink!

Sora, could HT be in your future? I have seen ladies seek great comfort in planning their HT journey straight away when discovering they were not carrying their DG, it takes all the pressure off of this pregnancy and moves the goal to a further date thats all! there could be twin blues in the future:)

No choice left now. Idk how we will afford it but we will have to start right away after this birth to have enough time left. I know nothing about HT. Cyprus is closest to us but idk if it's ok. It doesn't seem anyone here went there ?
Is Australia open to HT now or still not ? The US costs a lot we may be only able to pay for one attempt.

[LMSM]

Sora, I’m so so so sorry things didn’t go your way...
I have been there, and I know it’s no comfort but I do understand. So, so so well.
If HT is an option, and a fourth baby Id say go for it..I wish it were an option (not possible in Australia, no unfortunately ) but my husband is dead set against it...
How is your hubby? He’d be ok with #4 and HT?ifvso, that would be such a help to get over GD and enjoy this new baby :)
I think Cyprus or USA are possible good options.

I like 4b3p s suggestion of gender neutral clothes...I can’t bear more girl clothes either ...neutral cute whites etc would help diffuse the questions somewhat !!!
I decided to have S be the girliest and embrace the third girl thing but when I put away the boy clothes I’d saved over The years, again,,it near broke me.

Feel free to PM me, I have been in your exact shoes, just a few years ago and still dealing with it...
Be kind to yourself, you didn’t not want a girl, you wanted a boy. You Will love this baby, regardless of gender, and it’s ok to feel regret and pain and sorrow, anger even ...time will make it less hard. Try to find things that make you connect with her, naming her, feeling her move,preparing the world and your family ( bet your girls will help as they will be excited for this new babe!) for her, getting her new things ( not just hand me downs from her sisters) making her arrival special...
I don’t know right now with the lock down, do you have access the normal préparation de naissance such as haptonomie? ( so lucky to have that in RpFrance!) but Prep the birth as much as possible...my last DD’s birth was the most empowering because by then, I was at peace and couldn’t wait to meet this new person we’d made.
Again, be kind to yourself and allow yourself to feel your feelings...and you can pour them out here with no judgement <3
I was not in a good place, and still at times drop back into dark feelings but never against my girls...just anger at myself for not getting what I wanted/ planned and actually being so angry about it ( sounds crazy written like that);
Xx

[ChezIBY]

Hey Sora,

Ouf. Yes, sorry, I didn't see your message yesterday as it was in another thread.

Bref. Que veux-tu que je dise. Je suis vraiment vraiment navrée de lire que ton sway n'ait pas fonctionné. C'est terrible et tu es tout a fait justifiee dans ton ressenti present.

J'ai beaucoup de mal a trouver quelque chose de rassurant a te dire en ce moment et n'hésite pas de ne pas lire mes propos si tout ceci te paraisse inutile/sans intérêt.

C'est naturel que tu sois déçue ainsi qu'en colère. Tu fais le deuil de cet enfant que tu aurais voulu savoir un garçon. Ca ne t'en fait pas du tout quelqu'un de 'mechant' ou 'tordu'. Regarde le nombre de nanas ici qui te comprennent.

Je pense qu'il faut écouter LMSM et 4blue2pink comme des personnes qui ont vécu ceci. En effet ne prend pas de robes et vêtements fille si ça te rend malade (et j'irais jusqu'a dire que tu peux en déchirer, pourquoi pas, si ça peut te soulager). Prendre des trucs neutre ou couleur garçon, pourquoi pas. Ou ne pas préparer de vêtements du tout pour le moment si tu ne le sens pas.

Il faut vraiment faire attention à toi. J'ai lu ton récit dans le forum GD, je pense qu'il serait formidable que tu aies un soutien. Pro serait génial mais je sais, je sais que ça coûte la peau des fesses et encore faut trouver quelqu'un qui t'aiderait a décortiquer tout ton historique au lieu de simplement te prendre tes sous et faire une ordonnance pour des antidépresseurs. Est-ce une possibilité pour vous ? Car je pense, en lisant tes propos, que tu as vraiment souffert dans la vie et que tu as des valises bien lourdes a débaler.

Un peu lié mais un peu différent, est-ce que tu arrives à faire attention à ton alimentation en ce moment ? Car cela peut aggraver les choses et te rendre davantage malade. Est-ce que tu prends des compléments alimentaires de grossesse ? Tout ceci peut t'aider a remonter le bec un peu sans avoir recours au médocs.

N'hésite pas a me PM d'ailleurs si tu veux échanger de vive voix, et sinon j'ai une pote qui est naturopathe qui peut te consulter sur la nourriture si tu es vraiment malade, tu vomis tout le temps etc. Une qui a bien souffert de GD elle aussi tiens d'ailleurs.

Je trouve cela vraiment, vraiment injuste. Je suis dans un sort de flou depuis la relecture de tes messages. Surtout que j'ai appris que cette semaine que tu étais enceinte, n'ayant pas été sur les forums depuis quelques temps. Et la... Ca me ramène tout juste au moment où j'ai swaye en 2018 et puis il y avait throwaway panther qui swayait aussi. Et quand j'ai su que j'allais avoir un garçon j'étais ravie, puis je me connectais tout le temps pour lire la bonne nouvelle de la panthère. Et elle avait accouché d'une fille, elle n'en revenait pas. Je n'en revenais pas non plus, a mon sens si il y avait une de nous deux qui aurait dû réussir c'était plutôt elle, elle le méritait plus, elle le mérite toujours plus, elle avait tant souffert et tant eu de fausses couches et de tentatives.

Tu n'es pas en train d'etre punie, je ne pense pas. Mais la vie peut être terriblement cruelle. Et pas que envers les gens qui l'ont mérite. Je ne sais pas pourquoi. C'est infâme. C'est a tomber au lit et ne plus jamais vouloir sortir de chez soi.

Au moins sur un point j'ai un peu de réconfort : chaque personne qui oserait te faire des remarques est une P*TAIN de sal*pe !!!!!! Ne prends même pas le temps pour ces gens !!!! Ils sont inutiles !!! Des sorte de coquilles vides qui sont contents de voir un autre souffrir !!! Et si tu disais que tu étais enceinte d'un garçon il diraient 'heu super' en se grinçant les dents de colère, ce n'est pas plus beau. Tu te moques. Penses-tu que les couples avec PP ou ceux qui ont eu un garçon après deux filles vont forcément avoir des familles bien heureuses et être contents tous les jours ? Non, ou que s'ils y bossent dur.

Je pense que planifier a fond les caisses l'étape d'après, a savoir un HT, ça peut en effet t'aider a canaliser un peu. Et voir la suite. A ce propos je connais très bien au moins trois familles avec FFFG. Très unies et heureuses chacune. Et ça fait vraiment une famille formidable. Un petit prince chuchote par trois grandes soeurs, un rêve.

Et une autre piste ça serait vraiment de parler avec quelqu'un, te de faire aider pour ces souvenirs douleureux et tout ce qui remonte. Tu ne devrais pas vivre comme cela, tu mérites mieux. Tu eleveras des filles gentilles, tu verras. Elles ne se réveilleront pas méchantes un jour. Tu es une bonne mère.

Écrire une lettre a ton fils de rêve. Ou a la fille que tu portes. Noter tes sentiments. Vider ta tête comme tu puis.

C'est longue tout ça et inutile a mon sens. Desolee, je ne sais pas trop comment t'aider.
Je te fais plein de bisous.

[atomic sagebrush]

No choice left now. Idk how we will afford it but we will have to start right away after this birth to have enough time left. I know nothing about HT. Cyprus is closest to us but idk if it's ok. It doesn't seem anyone here went there ?
Is Australia open to HT now or still not ? The US costs a lot we may be only able to pay for one attempt.

Cyprus has had lower results than the US unfortunately. Some have gone there but it's not the first choice.

Others go to the Czech Republic but that's dicey as they will not release the gender, and you basically have to hope they give you the report with the gender on it so you can decide which embryo to transplant.

[Sora]

Oui je pense beaucoup à panther en ce moment. J'y pensais régulièrement depuis sa nouvelle. Elle était impressionnante de courage et toujours prête à donner des conseils. C'était injuste et j'avais déjà peur de vivre la même chose vu mon passif et le fait que mon sway prenait si longtemps quand les autres réussissaient au bout de deux essais. Je n'arrêtais pas de me dire que ce n'était pas normal aussi long, que ça allait encore être une fille. J'ai eu un mauvais pressentiment tout le long. Un BFP un mois qui n'avait pas été parfait niveau suivi. Malade tout le premier trimestre. Les filles m'avaient un peu rassurée avec ma première écho en disant que ça faisant plus garçon. Même moi je voyais des différences. Qu'est ce que j'ai pu les regarder tous les jours. Puis j'ai commencé de nouveau à avoir un mauvais pressentiment. Déjà toutes ces mères autour de moi tombant enceinte de leur garçon. Je pensais à panther et j'avais l'impression que comme elle, le destin allait se jouer de moi en me faisant l'unique fail. Que le terrain était préparé pour que je souffre le plus possible. C'est pas la première fois que ça arrive pour un projet qui me tient à coeur. Tout le monde d'un coup qui s'y met à côté de moi même ceux qui n'en br**** pas une. Tout le monde qui réussit les doigts dans le nez. Et moi qui après des mois à suer sang et eau débouche sur un refus, un contre-temps, un échec... Même là mon mari me dit que c'est partie remise sauf que ça fait maintenant plusieurs années qu'il me fait cette promesse pour divers projets et souvent, bon gré malgré, c'est lui le point de départ de ces échecs. J'en viens à penser qu'il n'est pas le bon pour moi. Qu'un autre aurait pu m'apporter mieux.
Puis cet échec là repousse tant de projets. On devait passer enfin à autre chose. On se retrouve à planifier à nouveau sans savoir ce qui va nous arriver. Je vais débarquer à 40 ans sans avoir rien fait, accompli et ça me ronge. Atomic dit vrai quand elle raconte que c'est incompréhensible les gens qui ont tout en un claquement de doigts. Décident "je veux un mariage, un garçon, une fille, une maison, un voyage ici à telle date" et obtiennent. Pas d'efforts. Pas de retards.
Et après on dit qu'il faut s'aimer soi-même et avoir confiance. Mais comment face à une telle injustice ?
Oui les pros pour le moment j'ai juste eu ce que tu décris. La psycho actuel a fait remarquer un spécialiste se dirige beaucoup trop vers le tout médoc ou le victim-shaming en ce moment. Il disait que beaucoup trop de psys commencent leur thérapie avec l'idée de base que le patient est le problème et doit changer ou se soumettre. Ce qui est profondément cruel pour les gens victimes de circonstances ou d'un entourage, environnement toxique. Et c'est bien mon ressenti. Je me suis entendu dire que j'étais trop fragile, que si j'étais plus forte et apprenais à me foutre du mal qu'on me fait tout irait mieux de suite et tout me réussirait miraculeusement. Et je trouve qu'on excuse beaucoup les coupables. Ils ont fait ça parce qu'ils sont malheureux faut que je laisse tomber... Ou on te culpabilise avec ton entourage "un effort pensez à vos pauvres proches qui doivent vous voir comme ça, le mal que ça fait à vos enfants...". Quand on dit des fois que la femme disparaît derrière ses enfants à la maternité c'est bien vrai. J'ai en effet l'impression de ne plus exister en tant que personne. Ne compte que ce que mes enfants en penseront. Ce n'est pas avec ce genre de discours que je vais les accepter. Je crois que je paye pour moi. Pas pour qu'on chouchoute le mental d'autrui, fut-il de ma famille.
Aller à l'écho ça a été comme monter sur l'échafaud. Entendre le verdict comme une condamnation à mort.
Là je veux juste remonter le temps, annuler mon essai, retrouver l'espoir. Je m'en veux d'avoir flingué notre fragile équilibre familial. Mais je pense aussi qu'il n'existait que grâce à cet espoir qu'un garçon nous rejoigne.
Je m'en veux d'avoir mal swayé et pourtant j'ai vu des filles le faire à l'arrache un mois et réussir. Je pense à avorter mais ça me fait mal et de toute façon on est coincés par le confinement.
Le HT fait peur et va nous ruiner mais c'est la seule solution 100% et encore faut-il que ça prenne.
Pour manger je n'y arrive pas depuis la nouvelle. J'ai l'impression que tout est de la faute de la nourriture je ne peux plus rien voir et de toute façon je n'arrête pas de vomir même à la simple pensée de sortir de la maison et d'être vue avec trois filles. Ou de croiser des bébés garçons. Des fois juste me réveiller et me rappeler que c'est bien en train d'arriver me fait courir aux toilettes.
Et dans le fond c'est peut être une bonne chose. Peut être que quelqu'un doit mourir de ça pour que les positions sur le GD changent.
Les connaissant ils vont juste dire que c'est de la folie mais peut être que les US pourront appuyer sur le fait que c'est ignoble de laisser des gens souffrir alors que la solution est là. Je ne sais pas. De toute façon je veux juste que cette souffrance s'arrête.
Je sais c'est pas joyeux. Malheureusement je pense bien que personne ne peut aider mieux. Le forum m'offre beaucoup de soutien. Ça me permet de respirer. Mais je ne pourrai pas guérir sans mon fils.

[Sora]

Cyprus has had lower results than the US unfortunately. Some have gone there but it's not the first choice.

Others go to the Czech Republic but that's dicey as they will not release the gender, and you basically have to hope they give you the report with the gender on it so you can decide which embryo to transplant.

So I've heard. I don't trust Czech. They have been known to be outwardly against GS and their medicine level leaves a lot to be desired. The only way for Europeans would be for UK to change its stance since it's the country with the most chances to and medical level to do it. France seems set to even ban pretesting for health reasons, citing again eugenism. So no hope there.

[atomic sagebrush]

There is also the Ukraine, although I have heard very little about them. I do think Cyprus will be your best bet given the constraints for you. :heart:

[Sora]

There is also the Ukraine, although I have heard very little about them. I do think Cyprus will be your best bet given the constraints for you. :heart:

Maybe but I know very little and am fearfull about their professionalism and low results. It's a lot of money and I want to be sure to get the best care.

[atomic sagebrush]

The best care is in the US, I wish it wasn't the case because I know it's so much more expensive for people. :/

[ChezIBY]

Maybe but I know very little and am fearfull about their professionalism and low results. It's a lot of money and I want to be sure to get the best care.

How are you doing Sora? <3

[Sora]

How are you doing Sora? <3

Not well. The pregnancy is not going well so I can kiss goodbye to any hope it may have made me feel better about pregnancy and motherhood. It's just a nightmare like the other two and for nothing in the end. I blame myself so much for believing in nature, choosing a bad DH, not going HT immediately.

[ChezIBY]

Okey. Are you managing to eat well (more or less?) Taking a prenatal?

[atomic sagebrush]

Please let us know how we can help! :heart:

[Sora]

Okey. Are you managing to eat well (more or less?) Taking a prenatal?

No, can't stomach much and at this point I don't care for supps or else since it couldn't improve useless me. I just want to stay confined til the end of my life.

[4blue2pink]

:heart: ive been thinking of you Sora, im sorry to hear that your pregnancy isnt going well, are you still feeling very sick?
A big part of me also wishes i had gone HT for our first and never rolled the dice on gender, i know i would have been so much happier.
Would HT be an option for you in the future? How has your husband reacted?
Sending love :heart:

[Sora]

:heart: ive been thinking of you Sora, im sorry to hear that your pregnancy isnt going well, are you still feeling very sick?
A big part of me also wishes i had gone HT for our first and never rolled the dice on gender, i know i would have been so much happier.
Would HT be an option for you in the future? How has your husband reacted?
Sending love :heart:

I think HT might be the only reasonable option and DH agrees... provided that horrible virus go away and borders reopen and affordable flights still exist. I don't know for other countries but here, green lobbies are pressuring like mad for affordable flights to be sunk forever and that travelling abroad should only be reserved to the rich, citing that since rich people are fewer in numbers, it will save the planet more than letting lowly working classes go to other countries. I can't tell you how much of a pressure it has been in Europe for every woman wanting to go HT or even simply wishing to go to a hospital abroad because they need a treatment that their own countries don't have or have banned.

Already with this pregnancy (which I hoped so much to be a boy), I joked with husband that it would be nice to have a 4th, if only to just know what it is like not to have to worry about gender. We could have even gone team green, it would have been so nice without the pressure. But he was very afraid of having so many children. And I shared some of his worries as more than 2-3 mean so much : holidays becoming very unaffordable and difficult to organize, needing a very big car if not TWO and in France a car is something less and less people can afford, how to manage with a small flat since we live in Paris we won't be able to rent bigger or buy a house if we still want to stay close to DH's job...

So I regret heavily not thinking more about possible failure... but it seemed such a low risk for me, we had changed so much in our habits. Plus I didn't want to scare myself with the idea, I wanted to be in control so that I would not sway pink. But I did somehow. I failed and it's eating at me not knowing where I did go so wrong. Now I've condemned everyone to a miserable life. It goes either way because I can feel I will never be over that boy so I can't say "let's stop and choose a comfortable life over having a son". It will spell death to me. I feel so trapped. On one hand if I succeed a whole family will suffer from not living with much, on the other hand if I fail a whole family will have to live on without a mother... which honestly seems the lesser of two evils. I don't know and I'm sure pink swayers will tell me "oh noooo don't miss out on your girly activities and seeing your daughters in a wedding dress". But well, for that they would have to want to marry in the first place. If they are anything like their dad, they won't want to hear a word about it...

And you don't understand because you don't know me IRL. But I am NOT a woman another woman wants to be seen with ! There's a reason I feel more happy and at ease around men. Men are okay with me being in their circle, being seen in my company, they think I'm okay as a friend, a confidant, a mother, less as a potential lover because even they think I'm not pretty or girly enough. But women only ever had bad things to say about me, they are ashamed to be seen with me, to invite me in their house, they find me too boyish, too weird, too ugly, too blunt, too much of a rival because men seem so relaxed about me (if only they knew they do agree with them on the ugly/unfeminine part, they would be less worried).

Do you really think my daughters, who turned out prettier than me, would want ME showing up alongside them on their wedding pics ? Especially if their MIL is as beautiful as a model and as charismatic as a Hollywood star, with the confidence and smarts of a CEO ? You think they will want their friends and in-laws to see for themselves what gave birth to them ? Trust me, they won't. Marriage is such a big important event that is already stressfull... they won't want to deal with shame because of their old mama.
Even if THEY didn't care, I know how these things go. They will have female in-laws who WON'T want to be seen in the same room as me and who won't owe me any respect in turn since I'm not their mother. Can you imagine my poor girls having to give up inviting me at family reunions because their female in-laws find me repulsive ? If they choose to stick by my side, they will have to cut ties with their in-laws, adding pressure to their relationship with their husband/wife and maybe never knowing the happiness of hanging out with you SIL or MIL, sharing fun times, especially once children are born.
It's sad to say but where a man can actually raise his voice and impose a female relative "MY WIFE OR NOTHING, MY MOTHER OR NOTHING, MY DAUGHTER OR NOTHING", a woman can't... often won't even want to bother... or if she has guts, she will but she will loose so much in the process...

DH has no sister but his mother, like so many other women, did find me too ugly and stupid and not good enough for him. She would always pressure him to go back to his ex and once roughly took me aside and asked when I will release her son from my clutches. He happened to walk in at that moment and hear that so he gave her an ultimatum... which didn't work because he wasn't the favorite son anyway. He had to cut ties and he's still suffering to this day. His mom was a pink swayer btw, he thought having a DIL would ease her pain over never having had a little girl and he's so sad that wasn't the case. And it all comes down to me not being "pink" enough. She doesn't even want to meet her grandaughters so my girls are already deprived of grandmas because of me.

And that's not the only time these things have happened. I have lost many a friend, especially female (and/or my female friends have lost many a female relative/friend) because most women can't stand me for the reasons I spelled up there. I did witness the shame and pain brought to these people by having their female loved ones suddenly turn mad witches frothing at the mouth and yelling "she's so ugly/boring/stupid/unfeminine, get her far away from me or I will cut ties with you". The most reasonable ones at least offered "fine, idk what you see in her but you can keep her... IF you never speak her name around me EVER !". I can't go through with hearing again and again the same apologies "I'm sorry, I can't stay friend with you, I like you but my family/friends are important too", "I'm sorry, I can't invite you because my relatives will be there and my mom/sister/bff can't stand you", "I'm so sorry they insulted you, don't want to get to know you more because I'm sure they would see how amazing you are... but I can't force them and I'm so ashamed, so sorry, I swear to you I don't know what is WRONG with them, they never acted that way with my other friends/lovers...". To this day I still don't know exactly what is wrong, just that the thing that comes up most often is that I'm ugly/unfeminine/stupid as in I have "boyish interests" and don't know the first thing about girly things. I searched so much, tried to be someone I was not, but the time you can keep up the charade of being 100% pink is so short... when the mask breaks, women always react with disgust at seeing that no, I am boyish, I am not quite "like them".
It happens less with male acquaintance, don't know why, maybe simply because men are raised with the idea that they have to be warriors, leaders, so they feel more at ease fighting for and imposing their views ?

So I can't help but think I would have been a better mother to sons on so many levels, even those that are out of my control. I can't do anything right with girls, I'm only bringing problems and shame and hurt. Whatever I do, a feminine family was the worst outcome for me, I can't be part of one so if it has to be that way it's better if I leave them. If I have only daughters, the best thing I can do for them is disappear.

And btw, I did grow up without a mother. But she's still alive and she's a monster. I would rather have a dead one. There's a hole in both cases but in one situation, that hole is so much worse because you know she could be there for you but she doesn't want to, doesn't love you. She doesn't care about seeing you married or happy or safe. A dead mother, you miss her, but you can still hope she's there watching over you and sending her love.

I'm sorry all this is messed up. There are some wounds that are too deep to close. I just want to hold my son and be done with pregnancies and giving birth because this has been such an awful experience for me up til now.

[ChezIBY]

Sora, dear,

There's really a lot in your messages and I have much i would like to say to you but here are my very first thoughts on a first reading:

-- you say you never get along with women. We are all women here though. We all like you. We all want you to be happy. We are all rooting for you. --> maybe the women who were around you before who didn't get along with you were the wrong ones, is all. You said you felt pressured to pretend to be someone you aren't (no wonder, given everything you've been through) so maybe the women who crept into your life weren't the ones who would have been attracted to the 'real' you. It can be argued that, even though we all only meet virtually here, we are very honest and open given the subject matters we deal with. And .. you see. A lot of women here like you and understand you, the real you they see. So .. maybe you are not a pariah for all women. (And I get the vibe you are speaking of, I do. I'm the youngest of three girls and my Mom somehow selected me as the 'quiet unfeminine one' and repeated this to me through all those years. Talk about projecting ... *Facepalm*)
-- good riddance for your girls' grandmas!!! They are much better off without such contact!! Don't you worry about them being 'deprived'!!!
-- you did not 'fail' in anything. The most 'perfect' sway is susceptible to statistics. You can do everything perfectly and still get a sway opposite. That's hard. It's life. Life is hard, life is full of suffering, FULL of it. The worst is when we feel it is unfair, as in someone being gravely ill is sad but it's out of our control, while something like this here stings and hurts a ton because you feel like 'you don't deserve this, you worked so hard for something else etc'. :(

-- you say that one of the worst things (worse than having no mother) ever is having a mom who abandoned you. Then just a while later you say that it would be best you abandon your girls. Just pointing it out. I know you are very very hurt. It is very likely however that you are the best person in the world in your girls' eyes and any scenario of you disappearing from their lives, if they could imagine this, would be far from 'the best thing'.

-- you have been hurt. A lot. This is terrible. It is imperative for the well-being of four, soon to be five, people, that you get better asap. This is non-negotiable. You feel that you have been hurt unfairly (but you have somewhat convinced yourself that you are flawed and deserve this or you are destined to suffer more than the next person). (please understand this is my attempt to state things, btw, this is no critique!! I think what you are going through is truly terrible and in some ways more so than you may realize). I do not think (sorry) that having a son (even if suddenly it were discovered that the tech was wrong, that you are having a boy now, and he were delivered to you in several months) would fix everything. I think you think you will 'prove and redeem yourself and deserve happiness' by managing to have a son.

This is untrue in both that you already deserve happiness and also in that having a son fixes nothing. It could in fact open more doors of suffering. Who's to say he would be as you imagine. Or maybe you will have twenty marvelous years all till he tells you he wants you out of his life now as he is choosing between you and his new SO and he chooses her over you (a scenario you have described as having often happened to you) how would you feel then?

In short I feel:
1 -- it is urgent to revise and commit to a plan that will enable you to get better for all your sakes. 'better' is described as a scenario where you are mostly happy day to day, find people who appreciate you and feel life is worthwhile for you.
2 -- plan your HT but only with the understanding that without point 1 it won't help
3 -- don't watch the news (especially our French TV). It will only drive you crazy especially atm. That's rubbish, we will still be able to travel. Don't worry. And if there is a shift indeed in that sense what is the point of worrying yourself over it? These are things out of our control.
4 -- fix manageable short term goals on your road to recovery. One of them is to look after yourself for this pregnancy and impending birth. Even if you don't care about it much, if you are to ever have another kid you should look after yourself.

Je t'embrasse bien fort

[rahaye_raha]

Im so sorry your baby didn’t turn out to be a boy. I have a friend who is coming from iran and there IVF costs around 2000 euro for Iranians. I dont know if its the same price for foreigners or not. Let me know if you needed any more information.

[atomic sagebrush]

It's not a failure, it's just that we can't get to 100% with swaying. If we could, the whole human race would have died out a long time ago. Some of this has to come down to luck. It's not what you did or didn't do, it was just how the dice rolled.

We all have these fears of what life will be like when our kids are older, and most of us as our kids have aged, have been pleasantly surprised about how our relationships with our children actually are when compared to the fears. It is my hope that as your daughters get older the fears you have will evaporate. It is hard when kids are small to see what our relationship will look like when they are older children, teenagers, adults - but it is always different than our worst fears would have us believe. Right now it seems like you know the future, but I hope that the future has many wonderful surprises for you. :heart:

[Sora]

I get what you say Chez and I'm sorry if I couldn't convey some things clearly enough since everything is a mess.

When I was talking about leaving my girl, I mean as in dying of course, no point of leaving them just to live somewhere else, and live for what ? Better I disappear from their lives in the real way, the way that won't lead them to believe I hate them or don't care at all, than stay around and just ghosting them. I can write, I can leave them tons of messages, of videos assuring it's not their fault, that they are great and loved and can become what I could never achieve, even more so because I won't be there to fail things for them and they won't have to care for me.

I see why you would say a son won't fix anything, but you got your son so you don't know. Not criticizing either, just stating, because I know how it is when you were in trouble but the situation solved itself quickly enough. You forget as quickly how terrible it was, it's part of the human brain, and things appears easier and not so terrible at all and you get the false feeling you could have done as well if you failed... But it's just that, a false feeling, you didn't get the worst outcome, you're relieved, you will never know (hopefully) what that kind of failure is like. Also when it resolves quickly, you don't have years of torture behind you so you'll never imagine how terrible it can get... and trust me, this time is even worse than the last, it's like being flayed alive on a daily basis.

I think anyway, if you read people who got their DG after four or five or more tries, you'll see the same words come back over and over : how relieved and alive they feel, how at peace they feel. No one can just improvise that on the spot, it shows how real and special the happiness brought by that child is. It's easy for the ones who never knew that or got over it fast to say "oh I'm sure nothing will change if you get your DG" and again, it's innocence talking. But I can assure you cause I can feel it, yes, yes it will. You may be biased too because you may think (and sadly that's what the anti-sways/HT argue too) that I'm waiting for some sort of check-list with an Y. Like them you tell me "what if he doesn't turn out like you hoped".

The only thoughts I have about how my children will turn out, present or future, are fears of them turning evil, against me but also against others. I'm sure everyone has had them, praying hard to get kind and honest children. My past just leads me to fearing bad outcomes more because I've seen how normally raised children can end up.
Otherwise, I have no "expectations" regarding them. Not even of a great bond that transcend time and space. I will be happy enough with a little love and gratitude and seeing them happy. But from past experiences and not only my own, I think I have higher chances of that with a son rather than a daughter because his expectations for me will be different from that of my daughters and actually in my reach.

So many boys I've seen with difficult mothers, depressed, drugged, jobless... So many of them still forgiving, still caring, still finding excuses to explain their behavior. The only one still standing at my mother's side ? My brother. DH ? Witnessed his mother become an alcoholic, regret not having a girl, cheat on his father twice before kicking him out... and still dearly loved her until the day he walked in on her pressuring me to leave him.
That and so many other events, that taught me... You don't have to be pretty, healthy, successful or smart to win a son's love. You just have to be there and love him, you can even fail in that and it will still take A LOT for him to leave you. A lot like becoming too abusive, or hurting another loved one in front of him.
I'm not into alcohol or drugs, I'm not abusive, I have more than enough daughters, I have no expectations on what a son should be or like to do, heck he can sew dresses and go get his nails painted if he wants to ! I won't be of much help for that but I won't mind and I won't go "oh noooooooes RIP my dreams of a little rough boy". I won't foolishly turn against the girl he loves, even if I happen not to like her (but there are more chances it will be the other way around tbh and I'd like to see her explain, between two abuses, how she is the victim) or belittle his hobbies and dreams.
Like you said, if it still fails, this time around the blame won't be just on me because it will be his decision too despite me doing better than some. If he ignores me because a woman told him to, then it will certainly not be my failure but hers, who can't even date someone without cutting them from their mother. And once again, the abuse will have come from a woman who deemed me not worthy of her presence.
But with girls, I start already on loosing grounds. What will I have to answer when they will accuse me of not being woman enough to guide them ? Give them what they needed ? I've seen so many daughters ditch their moms for not being perfect, for the crime of saying yellow suited them better and other ridiculous things. Some still ranting, even a month after burrying their old mothers "she failed to do this and this and that, and she wasn't enough this and this and that, I miss her but she sure wasn't the kind of mother she should have been". Death should usually make you aware of what you have lost but nah, it was still about what they didn't/couldn't do and not about what they did. If better women than me can't earn their daughters' love and gratitude in a lifetime, what chances do I have ? And I just can't rely on my experience as a daughter because I was no one's daughter. I just know what you shouldn't ever do to a girl, and I have an idea of what I would have wanted... except it is biased because I wasn't in a normal situation. My "I just want to have a kind, supportive and loving mother" may just come from not having one at all. What does a normal daughter wants ? Because it sure isn't just "a kind, supportive, loving mother" or there wouldn't be entire books about the complicated mother/daughter relationship.

I don't want to be unfairly thrust into a game I have no hopes to win, which I don't know the rules of. If I miraculously win, I will be relieved to have survived at all but at what cost ? I just want to play a game I know well, where I have a fair chance of winning or at least, enjoying some of it. You can still loose in a game you know well but it's not as terrible as being trapped in something with everything stacked against you.

Well I feel this is as messy as the other message so if you don't understand a word, don't worry about it. Also you say things are okay here but that has always been the magic of the Internet. People have no choice but to rely on very little to accept someone. But you know, just seeing most of you through pictures posted here and/or knowing a little about your lives, I can tell you're not at risk of being despised by girls, daughters or other relatives/friends. You're all so beautiful and successful in different ways. I'm pretty sure if we met IRL, you would all be disgusted and change sides on the road to not have to walk past me. And you sure don't have to worry about being loved by sons or daughters.

Sorry I have to get off here though, DD2 is sick.

[ChezIBY]

Hey Sora,

I've tried to give things another thought. Hope this might be useful. I can see you're in terrible pain :(

This makes me so angry, as in what various people in your life must have projected on you. Why would you say/think you are hideous?? I mean come on ma chère !! I am half angry at everyone who has pushed you this way, half curious to see your photo now (hehe) and then I am exasperated. I am SURE you are not hideous. Does everyone who you see in the street run away shouting in horror? (Bonus positive point: we all wear masks now ;p) what do you have, three boobs? A nose the size of a watermelon? What, every single person who has made you feel ugly, do they look like Brad Pitt/Angelina Jolie? Spoiler alert, even Brad/Angelina/whomever gorgeous must look like rubbish at times if they are exhausted/upset. So what. That's ok. Don't let people make you feel you are ugly, just dump the people who do (or who make you feel you must change in any way against your will).

It is terrible you have been exposed to so many disfunctional people/situations. I can't quite place you on something: your English is so good, like more so than 97 percent of French people's (sorry but come on, you know this is true. My brother-in-law went to polytechnique and his wife as well and they are terrible compared to you and definitely nowhere near using expressions such as 'flayed alive'.) How can it be that in our country that supposedly promotes girls so much and equality and education, someone as obviously educated as yourself doesn't value themselves more? You ought to be proud of your achievements.

There are many many books written about how terrible mother/son relationships can be as well. Oeudipus. Like two thirds of Freud's writings and the foundations of modern psychiatric theory. Hamlet. Anne's brother in Jane Austen's Persuasion. Check out the book/film on the bio of comic strip artist Crumb - though don't, his and his brothers' relationship with their mother is explored in detail and it is so truly disturbing. It might make you wish never to have a son seeing how messed up it can get :/ any of his comic strips, I had to look at some in a class once and it's like .. Jesus.

That being said, of course you are right and i don't really understand what you are going through, though I can see it is awful (hugs) and you are maybe right as well that if you had gotten your boy now or sooner, everything would be fine now and on the mend.

Thanks for the clarification though I am somewhat very little reassured that in fact you 'just meant' taking your own life. This is very serious and it is definitely NOT best for you or your girls no matter how many messages you leave them explaining things. Please, I feel the situation calls for an immediate and aggressive plan of how you get yourself to be better right now. I would beg that, as there is still ample hope that perhaps one day your situation will improve and you might get be happy (and have a son) that you would not let yourself go down this dark path for the sake of this future possible happiness. Please, have you spoken to your husband to let him know how serious things are?

Regarding how to improve things. Let us concentrate then on the 'get better' plan. Let us set aside my opinions and 'the other swayers who have swayed four, five, twenty times' and also discussions about whether or not it is really true a son would cure you and that mothers and daughters are more destined to fall out, or you are because you are hideous/not feminine etc. I leave my thoughts in the previous paragraphs regarding those points for you to peruse when you feel up to it, if you do.

So our point of departure is that you need a son, no matter what. And you currently have two daughters and you expect your third. And the world is crazy and everyone is quarantined etc. That is good, we have a point of departure. There is no point trying to 'soften' out current circumstances, we have to accept reality.

You have decided on HT for the next attempt. Good. It would be worthwhile to review your finances and decide on several action plans and timelines depending on the state of the world and travel. Plus on your age, your jobs etc. It is imperative you look after yourself at this time, your health, your pregnancy and prepare for the upcoming birth. I know you said you don't want to/don't feel up to it. It doesn't matter right now. You have to even if you don't want to. If having a son would help heal you and you are committed to this plan and HT, then you must be in optimal health. How on earth would you feel if you go through with all this one or two years down the line, you fall pregnant with your son and then miscarry him because you are in a terrible state of health?? Exactly. If nothing else, commit to minding your health for the sake of your future son having a healthy mother.

There is one more thing that comes to me and I apologise if it is something you have already considered/ruled out/don't like. But it is what I have been considering/had planned for myself if my sway with DS had turned out to be a failed sway, as it is, I believe, the only way of having a child the gender you wish for sure: have you considered adoption? I realise a lot of people might balk at the word and maybe I did before. However, I have a friend who lives nearby who worked for several years as a volunteer with an orphanage (she has two of her own and they are planning an adoption for their third as a resultof her earlier work and exposure to an understanding of the existence ofnorphans looking for a home and mom and dad) another friend in Paris who has a daughter and she and her husband want an adoption for their second and last child, and a playground mommy friend in the neighborhood who adopted a little boy a year ago with her husband after a long and fruitless struggle with infertility exhausted them. I forget if I mentioned this to you but I am Russian by origin. The adoptions I mention had all been carried out by French people from Russian orphanages. There still are many children in that country who have been abandoned (and let's not dwell on the conditions in the under financed and over populated establishments they live in) and in some other countries as well. Of course it involves commitment, paperwork and at least two trips abroad as well, however it took the mommy friend who did it about a year in total, which I don't think is huge. It strikes me that if you want a son for yourself, any son, just a son that you would raise and that would heal you, you could give this option a think-over. I don't know much of other countries, but Russia is a traditional society in most part still and you expressing a wish to adopt a boy as you have three girls would be completely understood (a lot of people there want a son or sons and would get it). It also strikes me that the terrible experiences you have had would make you a sympathetic and good mother for a baby boy who probably has no chance in an establishment somewhere unless one like you would save him. It's a thought anyhow.

I hope your DD2 feels better - and that it isn't covid whatever she has!! Stay safe <3

[ChezIBY]

Hey Sora,

I've tried to give things another thought. Hope this might be useful. I can see you're in terrible pain :(

This makes me so angry, as in what various people in your life must have projected on you. Why would you say/think you are hideous?? I mean come on ma chère !! I am half angry at everyone who has pushed you this way, half curious to see your photo now (hehe) and then I am exasperated. I am SURE you are not hideous. Does everyone who you see in the street run away shouting in horror? (Bonus positive point: we all wear masks now ;p) what do you have, three boobs? A nose the size of a watermelon? What, every single person who has made you feel ugly, do they look like Brad Pitt/Angelina Jolie? Spoiler alert, even Brad/Angelina/whomever gorgeous must look like rubbish at times if they are exhausted/upset. So what. That's ok. Don't let people make you feel you are ugly, just dump the people who do (or who make you feel you must change in any way against your will).

It is terrible you have been exposed to so many disfunctional people/situations. I can't quite place you on something: your English is so good, like more so than 97 percent of French people's (sorry but come on, you know this is true. My brother-in-law went to polytechnique and his wife as well and they are terrible compared to you and definitely nowhere near using expressions such as 'flayed alive'.) How can it be that in our country that supposedly promotes girls so much and equality and education, someone as obviously educated as yourself doesn't value themselves more? You ought to be proud of your achievements.

There are many many books written about how terrible mother/son relationships can be as well. Oeudipus. Like two thirds of Freud's writings and the foundations of modern psychiatric theory. Hamlet. Anne's brother in Jane Austen's Persuasion. Check out the book/film on the bio of comic strip artist Crumb - though don't, his and his brothers' relationship with their mother is explored in detail and it is so truly disturbing. It might make you wish never to have a son seeing how messed up it can get :/ any of his comic strips, I had to look at some in a class once and it's like .. Jesus.

That being said, of course you are right and i don't really understand what you are going through, though I can see it is awful (hugs) and you are maybe right as well that if you had gotten your boy now or sooner, everything would be fine now and on the mend.

Thanks for the clarification though I am somewhat very little reassured that in fact you 'just meant' taking your own life. This is very serious and it is definitely NOT best for you or your girls no matter how many messages you leave them explaining things. Please, I feel the situation calls for an immediate and aggressive plan of how you get yourself to be better right now. I would beg that, as there is still ample hope that perhaps one day your situation will improve and you might get be happy (and have a son) that you would not let yourself go down this dark path for the sake of this future possible happiness. Please, have you spoken to your husband to let him know how serious things are?

Regarding how to improve things. Let us concentrate then on the 'get better' plan. Let us set aside my opinions and 'the other swayers who have swayed four, five, twenty times' and also discussions about whether or not it is really true a son would cure you and that mothers and daughters are more destined to fall out, or you are because you are hideous/not feminine etc. I leave my thoughts in the previous paragraphs regarding those points for you to peruse when you feel up to it, if you do.

So our point of departure is that you need a son, no matter what. And you currently have two daughters and you expect your third. And the world is crazy and everyone is quarantined etc. That is good, we have a point of departure. There is no point trying to 'soften' out current circumstances, we have to accept reality.

You have decided on HT for the next attempt. Good. It would be worthwhile to review your finances and decide on several action plans and timelines depending on the state of the world and travel. Plus on your age, your jobs etc. It is imperative you look after yourself at this time, your health, your pregnancy and prepare for the upcoming birth. I know you said you don't want to/don't feel up to it. It doesn't matter right now. You have to even if you don't want to. If having a son would help heal you and you are committed to this plan and HT, then you must be in optimal health. How on earth would you feel if you go through with all this one or two years down the line, you fall pregnant with your son and then miscarry him because you are in a terrible state of health?? Exactly. If nothing else, commit to minding your health for the sake of your future son having a healthy mother.

There is one more thing that comes to me and I apologise if it is something you have already considered/ruled out/don't like. But it is what I have been considering/had planned for myself if my sway with DS had turned out to be a failed sway, as it is, I believe, the only way of having a child the gender you wish for sure: have you considered adoption? I realise a lot of people might balk at the word and maybe I did before. However, I have a friend who lives nearby who worked for several years as a volunteer with an orphanage (she has two of her own and they are planning an adoption for their third as a resultof her earlier work and exposure to an understanding of the existence ofnorphans looking for a home and mom and dad) another friend in Paris who has a daughter and she and her husband want an adoption for their second and last child, and a playground mommy friend in the neighborhood who adopted a little boy a year ago with her husband after a long and fruitless struggle with infertility exhausted them. I forget if I mentioned this to you but I am Russian by origin. The adoptions I mention had all been carried out by French people from Russian orphanages. There still are many children in that country who have been abandoned (and let's not dwell on the conditions in the under financed and over populated establishments they live in) and in some other countries as well. Of course it involves commitment, paperwork and at least two trips abroad as well, however it took the mommy friend who did it about a year in total, which I don't think is huge. It strikes me that if you want a son for yourself, any son, just a son that you would raise and that would heal you, you could give this option a think-over. I don't know much of other countries, but Russia is a traditional society in most part still and you expressing a wish to adopt a boy as you have three girls would be completely understood (a lot of people there want a son or sons and would get it). It also strikes me that the terrible experiences you have had would make you a sympathetic and good mother for a baby boy who probably has no chance in an establishment somewhere unless one like you would save him. It's a thought anyhow.

I hope your DD2 feels better - and that it isn't covid whatever she has!! Stay safe <3

[Sora]

Hey Sora,

I've tried to give things another thought. Hope this might be useful. I can see you're in terrible pain :(

This makes me so angry, as in what various people in your life must have projected on you. Why would you say/think you are hideous?? I mean come on ma chère !! I am half angry at everyone who has pushed you this way, half curious to see your photo now (hehe) and then I am exasperated. I am SURE you are not hideous. Does everyone who you see in the street run away shouting in horror? (Bonus positive point: we all wear masks now ;p) what do you have, three boobs? A nose the size of a watermelon? What, every single person who has made you feel ugly, do they look like Brad Pitt/Angelina Jolie? Spoiler alert, even Brad/Angelina/whomever gorgeous must look like rubbish at times if they are exhausted/upset. So what. That's ok. Don't let people make you feel you are ugly, just dump the people who do (or who make you feel you must change in any way against your will).

It is terrible you have been exposed to so many disfunctional people/situations. I can't quite place you on something: your English is so good, like more so than 97 percent of French people's (sorry but come on, you know this is true. My brother-in-law went to polytechnique and his wife as well and they are terrible compared to you and definitely nowhere near using expressions such as 'flayed alive'.) How can it be that in our country that supposedly promotes girls so much and equality and education, someone as obviously educated as yourself doesn't value themselves more? You ought to be proud of your achievements.

There are many many books written about how terrible mother/son relationships can be as well. Oeudipus. Like two thirds of Freud's writings and the foundations of modern psychiatric theory. Hamlet. Anne's brother in Jane Austen's Persuasion. Check out the book/film on the bio of comic strip artist Crumb - though don't, his and his brothers' relationship with their mother is explored in detail and it is so truly disturbing. It might make you wish never to have a son seeing how messed up it can get :/ any of his comic strips, I had to look at some in a class once and it's like .. Jesus.

That being said, of course you are right and i don't really understand what you are going through, though I can see it is awful (hugs) and you are maybe right as well that if you had gotten your boy now or sooner, everything would be fine now and on the mend.

Thanks for the clarification though I am somewhat very little reassured that in fact you 'just meant' taking your own life. This is very serious and it is definitely NOT best for you or your girls no matter how many messages you leave them explaining things. Please, I feel the situation calls for an immediate and aggressive plan of how you get yourself to be better right now. I would beg that, as there is still ample hope that perhaps one day your situation will improve and you might get be happy (and have a son) that you would not let yourself go down this dark path for the sake of this future possible happiness. Please, have you spoken to your husband to let him know how serious things are?

Regarding how to improve things. Let us concentrate then on the 'get better' plan. Let us set aside my opinions and 'the other swayers who have swayed four, five, twenty times' and also discussions about whether or not it is really true a son would cure you and that mothers and daughters are more destined to fall out, or you are because you are hideous/not feminine etc. I leave my thoughts in the previous paragraphs regarding those points for you to peruse when you feel up to it, if you do.

So our point of departure is that you need a son, no matter what. And you currently have two daughters and you expect your third. And the world is crazy and everyone is quarantined etc. That is good, we have a point of departure. There is no point trying to 'soften' out current circumstances, we have to accept reality.

You have decided on HT for the next attempt. Good. It would be worthwhile to review your finances and decide on several action plans and timelines depending on the state of the world and travel. Plus on your age, your jobs etc. It is imperative you look after yourself at this time, your health, your pregnancy and prepare for the upcoming birth. I know you said you don't want to/don't feel up to it. It doesn't matter right now. You have to even if you don't want to. If having a son would help heal you and you are committed to this plan and HT, then you must be in optimal health. How on earth would you feel if you go through with all this one or two years down the line, you fall pregnant with your son and then miscarry him because you are in a terrible state of health?? Exactly. If nothing else, commit to minding your health for the sake of your future son having a healthy mother.

There is one more thing that comes to me and I apologise if it is something you have already considered/ruled out/don't like. But it is what I have been considering/had planned for myself if my sway with DS had turned out to be a failed sway, as it is, I believe, the only way of having a child the gender you wish for sure: have you considered adoption? I realise a lot of people might balk at the word and maybe I did before. However, I have a friend who lives nearby who worked for several years as a volunteer with an orphanage (she has two of her own and they are planning an adoption for their third as a resultof her earlier work and exposure to an understanding of the existence ofnorphans looking for a home and mom and dad) another friend in Paris who has a daughter and she and her husband want an adoption for their second and last child, and a playground mommy friend in the neighborhood who adopted a little boy a year ago with her husband after a long and fruitless struggle with infertility exhausted them. I forget if I mentioned this to you but I am Russian by origin. The adoptions I mention had all been carried out by French people from Russian orphanages. There still are many children in that country who have been abandoned (and let's not dwell on the conditions in the under financed and over populated establishments they live in) and in some other countries as well. Of course it involves commitment, paperwork and at least two trips abroad as well, however it took the mommy friend who did it about a year in total, which I don't think is huge. It strikes me that if you want a son for yourself, any son, just a son that you would raise and that would heal you, you could give this option a think-over. I don't know much of other countries, but Russia is a traditional society in most part still and you expressing a wish to adopt a boy as you have three girls would be completely understood (a lot of people there want a son or sons and would get it). It also strikes me that the terrible experiences you have had would make you a sympathetic and good mother for a baby boy who probably has no chance in an establishment somewhere unless one like you would save him. It's a thought anyhow.

I hope your DD2 feels better - and that it isn't covid whatever she has!! Stay safe <3

I'll just jump right into the last part since it will come up now that I failed so hard. And I haven't broached the subject here don't worry, for fear of discouraging people wanting to go down that road. But regarding my situation, I am deeply against adoption. I was surprised you did suggest it since it's just impossible to adopt in France (but you never mentionned you were Russian) but now I understand you mean adoption abroad. But as sad as I am for these orphans, it's a big NO to me.

Understand that I have gone through my life relying a LOT on what others brought to survive. Pity, mercy, money, food, very very often a roof starting when I was 18... time away from friends and family for my sake... I barely managed to pay these people back and many didn't like the wait nor did they like much bringing the help first thing. A few expected some kind of reward in return. A lot didn't expect much but did get angry at having to help at all because they weren't relatives and despite liking me, felt that shouldn't be their job, period. And they're tiring of me, seeing as I always end up in trouble, even if they know that for some things, it really is out of my control. They feel like all their hard work is being destroyed by others, or nature in the case of Corona. And they want to throw the towel and I can't blame them. I was in that situation once, trying to help a friend with her toxic mom who kept undoing all our little victories.

Also, the majority of people who hear about what I went through and how I had to rely on people who were not family dubs me more or less as "someone who can't survive by herself aka a load -> that's what has so many people tell me I'm ugly or stupid, because they feel someone smart and pretty would never go through such hard times. They have a lot of troubles understanding the concept of "bad circumstances" and I do get that. You rarely meet someone with such bad luck. And when it goes to that level, you can't help but think that person is bringing it all upon themselves willingly. Cause lightnning doesn't strike twice and blablabla so even if it does indeed exist, people will more likely think you summoned lightning rather than you were just born unlucky.

What will they think of me when I have to rely on another woman to have a son ? And not because I'm infertile, that would be a good reason... but being so so so failed despite being fertile that I have to count on another's mistake, bad luck or worse, death, to get something as simple, as natural as a child ? Everyone who ever said I was a failure, stupid, ugly will be totally vindicated in their opinion, forever. They already feel like it and do remind it to me because I failed to be loved by my mother, failed to find a job. I finished my studies just at the beginning of the 2008 crisis, that combined with my familial and financial problems of the time (found myself in the streets) kept me from ever finding a good place and now I'm paying for it... Do people care it was bad luck ? No, they just see the failure and say it's proof enough I wouldn't be a good employee and never give me a chance. The little jobs I found during that decade ? I all owed them to strangers who housed me. And they never failed to remind me of it, that without them I would be nothing. THe last job I held (and now lost) just before Corona ? All mine, my own efforts. I was searching for something new before the pandemic and now I'm not sure I will ever get the opportunity again. Especially if I'm stuck trying for a son... but my body can't wait for me to find another job, time is running out if I even want HT to work.

So let's not talk about adoption... how will that look like ? A young, healthy woman unable to be loved by her parents, unable to find a job, and now unable to make her own son, needing the flesh and blood of another ? I can hear them already "How far do you plan on living like a parasite ? You bring nothing good to this world." I already heard that, have heard that since I was 10. I thought it would be finally over once an adult with a family of my own but instead, it keeps getting worse and it's not even all my fault. I took some very bad decisions but did I do 2008 ? No. Did I ask for Corona ? No. And still I am paying for it and it's me who is the virus.

You know, when I was TTC DD1, I was also planning to go back to studying in hopes of bettering my chance. Not only did they refuse to fund every plan I proposed them at unemployement but in the end, they told me "You're much too old to go back to school, how long will you keep that childish attitude ? Get out there, clean some toilets and be an adult ! It's time you got a taste of what real life is !". When DD2 started school, I was asked if I planned to go back to my job. When I said I had no job to go back to, the woman in charge of registering my DD2's name looked me in the eye and said "Ok... and how long are you planning to keep living like a weak little girl on other people's charity ? Don't you think that at your age, it's time to start living the adult life ?".

You asked me how a woman could still, in a first-world country, with education, think so little of herself and stuff... Well, you have some answers. And apparently I'm not the only one going through this.
To me it all goes back to still having a family too, and especially a good mom. I knew a friend who had it really bad, worse than me even. But her mother never let her down. Not when she failed high-school, not when her father abandonned them taking everything with him, not when she was struggling and doubting herself. Her mother, despite being atrociously depressed, kept telling her she was smart, capable and beautiful and not to worry. She taught her herself (she was a former seller, had her own store, but was ruined by 2008 crisis too and ended up jobless...). And know what ? It worked. Thanks to her help and kind words, the daughter found a part-time job as a seller herself, then from that went on to better jobs thanks to the experience and money, even paid herself a return to studies for a year, and now still fight to get a better life. And she's reasonnably happy. She even married.
Sometimes all you need is a loving parent. But I don't have that so I start with so huge a disadvantage it feels like I will never, ever be able to find a way. There's no one waiting home to comfort me after a bad day or a failed search for a job. There's no one to call. I can't count how many times in my life I have stared at my phone during sleepless nights, crying and wondering who I could talk to about it only to realize there was no one. No mom, no relatives. I don't want to burden the friends I have with that and for my male friends, it's a little bit complicated with wives around you know... They don't like them helping out a woman who's not their sister. They find it suspect. And let's not talk about DH, he has everything he wished for, he doesn't understand.

Well disgressing but how am I supposed to look at myself in the mirror and not believe the people who call me a parasite and a failure when I can't even have a son without a stranger's help ?

There's no judgement here about adoption, just so it's clear. It's all related to my personnal and unusual situation, I don't think badly of adoption by itself, of adoptive mother. Quite the contrary even as I had a bunch of friends who were adopted. But here lies another of my fears... I've seen them all save for one boy want to reach out and find their birth mother after a while, no matter how much they loved their adoptive moms. And I totally get why, don't misunderstand, I've played confidant role all these years and I know what drove them... but again it's just me, while I will never forbid an adopted child to look for answers, I know it will hurt me too much, too much to heal. I would let them so that there are not two people hurt, just one, but it will kill me. All that love and work just to end up not enough in the end. Less good than the birth mother even if the latter is an irresponsible druggie. What I already spent my life being told I brought nothing good and now I will somehow be told finding a stupid junkie is more important than just enjoying a bond with me ? It's a dark thought and seems like it conflict with what I said but it's really a mix. I do get how you can be consummed by a need for answers about your past, really, and I wish for people to get these answers... but at the same time I feel it's such a slap in the face towards the adoptive parent. Your child wanting to meet at any cost the person who abandonned them. Well it depends, I guess a normal adoptive parent loved by other people will just shrug it off. But I can't, my own mother didn't love me and my adopted son would rather loose time and money chasing after a potential bad mother ? Such a new low to fall to. I don't want to go through this.

Sorry it is long again, I just hope I managed to express my feelings about it. Don't worry I get your suggestion and why you'd offer that option, no problem at all. It's the logical way to look at the situation too. Just explaining why it won't be possible for me and sorry if I'm being confused. It's a complex subject and I have trouble ordering or spelling my thoughts on it. And again it's just my opinion about adoption for me, not about adoption by itself or for others.

Sorry have to go to an appointment so leaving a bit quickly now.

[4blue2pink]

Im sorry its taken me so long to reply to you Sora.
One thing that really jumps out at me from your posts is how you are trapped in a very negative environment.
City life, while convienient with everything right on your doorstep is like living in a fishbowl. You are overlooked from every angle all the time, you cant do anything without being watched or overheard and as a result everything you do/say is known about and then judged by others.
I know moving is a huge pain but if you can leave the city then do, you need space to be able to just breathe.
We left urban living behind 3 years ago and its the best thing we ever did, our kids have outside space to run and play in and we are no longer overlooked, meaning we no longer have every move we make judged or have to worry about the kids playing too loud or being reported by bitter people who have nothing better to do. It is honestly so freeing to not have to feel all those pairs of eyes on you everywhere you go.
We arent in total isolation, there are houses to either side of us but its open fields to the front and back of our house and we are only 5 minutes away from the nearest town, so you dont need to move to the middle of nowhere to feel the difference. The people are different too, they have no interest in spying on others they keep themselves to themselves. Even the way they dress is different no one cares what you wear, im like you im not girly at all, i dont own a single dress! I never wear makeup, i live in jeans my hair is never "styled" and no one cares here :) but where we used to live i was considered a "tramp"
Seriously though how do those women clean the house, change nappies and cook etc with those long fake nails?! If i paint my short nails its all chipped and ruined within a day!!
Moving away has made me realise how toxic city life really is and from what you have described life in Paris (despite being known here in the UK as the beautiful "city of love") sounds like hell.
As has already been said Mother-Son relationships can be bad, one thing male serial killers have in common is "mummy issues" and boys are also much more likely to be autistic so there is always the chance that he would have additional needs. I think most of us on here with lots of boys have at least one son who has additional needs of some form, they are becoming very common in our society now and even the doctors are very open about mums of girls not needing to worry as much, though of course girls can be affected too. Gender selection is illegal here but if you have an autistic boy they will let you have it to get a girl and supposedly avoid autism.

Im so sad to read that you feel your only option is to take your own life. I lost my mum when i was little and then a few years later i lost my dad and ended up alone at 16. I know your dh would care for your girls if you left but who would care for them if both you and dh were gone?
No amount of messages/letters/videos from you will fill the void your departure will leave in your girls lives, and your dh may very well destroy them as children often never get to read the suicide note, i guess people feel its best they never see it.
Please take the time to look up and read the experiences of people who have lost a parent to suicide, parents who just like you truly believed their children were better off without them and that they were doing the best for their children by dying.
The actual consequences of their death are never what they intended them to be.

All of the things that you want to have die with you so they dont affect your girls wont stop with your death.
They wont be judged for having an "ugly" mum but they will be heavily judged for having a mum who killed herself..
They wont have a mum who "isnt good enough for them" but they will feel that they werent good enough for you.. and then they will believe they aren't good enough for anyone.
You are doing this out of love for them but they will wonder why you didnt love them enough to stay.
You want to set them free from your inadequacies but instead you sentence them to a lifetime of grief and also a deep routed fear that everyone else will die and leave them at any given moment. (i became terrified of my dad dying after my mum went)
Grief affects children for life. It stunts their emotional growth often leaving them unable to emotionally develop beyond the age they were when the loss occured.
They will also be at a hugely increased risk of dying by suicide themselves.. as they say, the cycle continues until someone breaks the chain.
On a different note you will also rob your future self of the chance to raise a boy/s and your future son/s will also be robbed of the life they would of had.
No matter how loud the bad thoughts get know that they are not painting the full picture. There is a saying "kill your life not yourself." Change everything, move away and cut out all the negative people (get ruthless!!) do whatever it takes :heart:

**i also want to second that your english is amazing!

[ChezIBY]

Hi Sora,

Don't worry about the adoption issue; if it isn't an option for you it's fine, you decide about your life and you shouldn't have to justify anything. Definitely not here on the forums where everyone is here to support you anyhow <3

Who are these 'they' who judge you all the time? (As in your saying 'what will they say if I have to rely on another woman to have a son etc')? If it is just random people like at the pole emploi or the lady who registered the acte de naissance for your DD, the examples you mention here, please learn not to care!! Not to be rude as there must be many nice people working there, but I think a lot of them must feel defensive/embittered because of their line of work where many of their customers must be rude and obnoxious to them on a daily basis. If you are a bit quiet and self-effacing in appearance they might just take their spleen out on you!! Please please don't beat yourself up over it or at least learn to give cutting replies if it hurts!! Put people back in their place!! What sort of right in hell does a random clerk in a window have to judge you?? If your situation suits you and DH that's all that matters. You are raising two, soon to be three children in the current circumstances which is hectic enough. And with Covid a ton of people will become unemployed unfortunately, with companies such as Air France even declaring bankruptcy, so there will be a bazillion people in tight straits. It would be blind, to say the least, for anyone to blame you for being out of a job. Please come back at them aggressively if they do. 'i am sorry, I didn't realize you were an expert on my life. Why don't you come and live with my family then as I am sure you have many valuable bits of advice to share. You must live in a three story house on ile st louis and make six figures a month yourself then? Seeing as how you find it so easy to dispatch critique'. Or something.

Please, also you must really not think that you have anything to 'prove' to such people. Or rather if these are really people (actually present all the time in your life, not just random strangers) who judge you because you don't have a son/job/I don't know what, then these people are bad for you even if your situation were to change. You ought to try and get rid of them being in your life.

At least DH is in a good place then. He should be your support though and it is imperative he understand you are feeling very poorly.

Best of luck for planning HT then. Not to dampen anything but just in case and to be on the safe side, do prepare for an eventual opposite and maybe plan two consecutive attempts or something? Just to take the pressure off.

I come back to the point that the most immediate action should be you looking after yourself physically and mentally though and the two are linked. If for the sake of nothing else, then for the fact that you will be heavy bent on your next ttc ht attempt if you have a long recovery after this one. You must look after yourself! Even if you don't want to. And if you are at the point that nothing seems worthwhile and you can't face getting out of bed then you must absolutely alert your DH that you are depressed.

Please also believe that your girls would not be better off without you. As you have expressed yourself in the example of your friend succeeding despite various difficulties, mother's love and support can go far. You will do great at raising them <3

[ChezIBY]

Im sorry its taken me so long to reply to you Sora.
One thing that really jumps out at me from your posts is how you are trapped in a very negative environment.
City life, while convienient with everything right on your doorstep is like living in a fishbowl. You are overlooked from every angle all the time, you cant do anything without being watched or overheard and as a result everything you do/say is known about and then judged by others.
I know moving is a huge pain but if you can leave the city then do, you need space to be able to just breathe.
We left urban living behind 3 years ago and its the best thing we ever did, our kids have outside space to run and play in and we are no longer overlooked, meaning we no longer have every move we make judged or have to worry about the kids playing too loud or being reported by bitter people who have nothing better to do. It is honestly so freeing to not have to feel all those pairs of eyes on you everywhere you go.
We arent in total isolation, there are houses to either side of us but its open fields to the front and back of our house and we are only 5 minutes away from the nearest town, so you dont need to move to the middle of nowhere to feel the difference. The people are different too, they have no interest in spying on others they keep themselves to themselves. Even the way they dress is different no one cares what you wear, im like you im not girly at all, i dont own a single dress! I never wear makeup, i live in jeans my hair is never "styled" and no one cares here :) but where we used to live i was considered a "tramp"
Seriously though how do those women clean the house, change nappies and cook etc with those long fake nails?! If i paint my short nails its all chipped and ruined within a day!!
Moving away has made me realise how toxic city life really is and from what you have described life in Paris (despite being known here in the UK as the beautiful "city of love") sounds like hell.
As has already been said Mother-Son relationships can be bad, one thing male serial killers have in common is "mummy issues" and boys are also much more likely to be autistic so there is always the chance that he would have additional needs. I think most of us on here with lots of boys have at least one son who has additional needs of some form, they are becoming very common in our society now and even the doctors are very open about mums of girls not needing to worry as much, though of course girls can be affected too. Gender selection is illegal here but if you have an autistic boy they will let you have it to get a girl and supposedly avoid autism.

Im so sad to read that you feel your only option is to take your own life. I lost my mum when i was little and then a few years later i lost my dad and ended up alone at 16. I know your dh would care for your girls if you left but who would care for them if both you and dh were gone?
No amount of messages/letters/videos from you will fill the void your departure will leave in your girls lives, and your dh may very well destroy them as children often never get to read the suicide note, i guess people feel its best they never see it.
Please take the time to look up and read the experiences of people who have lost a parent to suicide, parents who just like you truly believed their children were better off without them and that they were doing the best for their children by dying.
The actual consequences of their death are never what they intended them to be.

All of the things that you want to have die with you so they dont affect your girls wont stop with your death.
They wont be judged for having an "ugly" mum but they will be heavily judged for having a mum who killed herself..
They wont have a mum who "isnt good enough for them" but they will feel that they werent good enough for you.. and then they will believe they aren't good enough for anyone.
You are doing this out of love for them but they will wonder why you didnt love them enough to stay.
You want to set them free from your inadequacies but instead you sentence them to a lifetime of grief and also a deep routed fear that everyone else will die and leave them at any given moment. (i became terrified of my dad dying after my mum went)
Grief affects children for life. It stunts their emotional growth often leaving them unable to emotionally develop beyond the age they were when the loss occured.
They will also be at a hugely increased risk of dying by suicide themselves.. as they say, the cycle continues until someone breaks the chain.
On a different note you will also rob your future self of the chance to raise a boy/s and your future son/s will also be robbed of the life they would of had.
No matter how loud the bad thoughts get know that they are not painting the full picture. There is a saying "kill your life not yourself." Change everything, move away and cut out all the negative people (get ruthless!!) do whatever it takes :heart:

**i also want to second that your english is amazing!

Completely agree with everything you have said here blue!! Paris is awesome when you're visiting but unfortunately living there is pretty much as you described.

[atomic sagebrush]

I can't add anything to what everyone has already said, but just know that we are all here and sending :heart: to you.

[LMSM]

Im sorry its taken me so long to reply to you Sora.
One thing that really jumps out at me from your posts is how you are trapped in a very negative environment.
City life, while convienient with everything right on your doorstep is like living in a fishbowl. You are overlooked from every angle all the time, you cant do anything without being watched or overheard and as a result everything you do/say is known about and then judged by others.
I know moving is a huge pain but if you can leave the city then do, you need space to be able to just breathe.
We left urban living behind 3 years ago and its the best thing we ever did, our kids have outside space to run and play in and we are no longer overlooked, meaning we no longer have every move we make judged or have to worry about the kids playing too loud or being reported by bitter people who have nothing better to do. It is honestly so freeing to not have to feel all those pairs of eyes on you everywhere you go.
We arent in total isolation, there are houses to either side of us but its open fields to the front and back of our house and we are only 5 minutes away from the nearest town, so you dont need to move to the middle of nowhere to feel the difference. The people are different too, they have no interest in spying on others they keep themselves to themselves. Even the way they dress is different no one cares what you wear, im like you im not girly at all, i dont own a single dress! I never wear makeup, i live in jeans my hair is never "styled" and no one cares here :) but where we used to live i was considered a "tramp"
Seriously though how do those women clean the house, change nappies and cook etc with those long fake nails?! If i paint my short nails its all chipped and ruined within a day!!
Moving away has made me realise how toxic city life really is and from what you have described life in Paris (despite being known here in the UK as the beautiful "city of love") sounds like hell.
As has already been said Mother-Son relationships can be bad, one thing male serial killers have in common is "mummy issues" and boys are also much more likely to be autistic so there is always the chance that he would have additional needs. I think most of us on here with lots of boys have at least one son who has additional needs of some form, they are becoming very common in our society now and even the doctors are very open about mums of girls not needing to worry as much, though of course girls can be affected too. Gender selection is illegal here but if you have an autistic boy they will let you have it to get a girl and supposedly avoid autism.

Im so sad to read that you feel your only option is to take your own life. I lost my mum when i was little and then a few years later i lost my dad and ended up alone at 16. I know your dh would care for your girls if you left but who would care for them if both you and dh were gone?
No amount of messages/letters/videos from you will fill the void your departure will leave in your girls lives, and your dh may very well destroy them as children often never get to read the suicide note, i guess people feel its best they never see it.
Please take the time to look up and read the experiences of people who have lost a parent to suicide, parents who just like you truly believed their children were better off without them and that they were doing the best for their children by dying.
The actual consequences of their death are never what they intended them to be.

All of the things that you want to have die with you so they dont affect your girls wont stop with your death.
They wont be judged for having an "ugly" mum but they will be heavily judged for having a mum who killed herself..
They wont have a mum who "isnt good enough for them" but they will feel that they werent good enough for you.. and then they will believe they aren't good enough for anyone.
You are doing this out of love for them but they will wonder why you didnt love them enough to stay.
You want to set them free from your inadequacies but instead you sentence them to a lifetime of grief and also a deep routed fear that everyone else will die and leave them at any given moment. (i became terrified of my dad dying after my mum went)
Grief affects children for life. It stunts their emotional growth often leaving them unable to emotionally develop beyond the age they were when the loss occured.
They will also be at a hugely increased risk of dying by suicide themselves.. as they say, the cycle continues until someone breaks the chain.
On a different note you will also rob your future self of the chance to raise a boy/s and your future son/s will also be robbed of the life they would of had.
No matter how loud the bad thoughts get know that they are not painting the full picture. There is a saying "kill your life not yourself." Change everything, move away and cut out all the negative people (get ruthless!!) do whatever it takes :heart:

**i also want to second that your english is amazing!

I could not have said this more eloquently than you have my dear friend :heart::agree::wink:
Time and time over have I tried to express this but came short.
Sora, there ARE options (ones that aren’t taking your own life!) and I think that you have to remember you are not alone, even if you feel so, they ARE opportunities for a better future... whether that be leave a toxic environment, the option for HT that is there actually there...
4b3p has raised very good points, and I do think the first thing to do is to take care of your immediate mental health. You say you’d be judged, maybe seek a therapist that specialises in trauma? If you could explain the background, you would feel safe to bring the GD issue on the table.
I really hope that you know , in your heart, that your girls need you, really need you - even if you feel broken. I know you love them, so for you, for them, please reach out ...:hug2: ChezIby, I never lived in Paris, do you know if there are some good local groups that provide independent free counselling etc?
That could be a starting point Sora, with the anonymity of a phonein between you? To lay out everything on your heart without the fear of judgement??? When you don’t have to face (literally) the person taking your story?

I know the hurt, I really, really, really do... while I never was suicidal, I have had dark dark thoughts too.
You have avenues, ones that can help you start healing, please consider them...
Thinking of you

[Sora]

Im sorry its taken me so long to reply to you Sora.
One thing that really jumps out at me from your posts is how you are trapped in a very negative environment.
City life, while convienient with everything right on your doorstep is like living in a fishbowl. You are overlooked from every angle all the time, you cant do anything without being watched or overheard and as a result everything you do/say is known about and then judged by others.
I know moving is a huge pain but if you can leave the city then do, you need space to be able to just breathe.
We left urban living behind 3 years ago and its the best thing we ever did, our kids have outside space to run and play in and we are no longer overlooked, meaning we no longer have every move we make judged or have to worry about the kids playing too loud or being reported by bitter people who have nothing better to do. It is honestly so freeing to not have to feel all those pairs of eyes on you everywhere you go.
We arent in total isolation, there are houses to either side of us but its open fields to the front and back of our house and we are only 5 minutes away from the nearest town, so you dont need to move to the middle of nowhere to feel the difference. The people are different too, they have no interest in spying on others they keep themselves to themselves. Even the way they dress is different no one cares what you wear, im like you im not girly at all, i dont own a single dress! I never wear makeup, i live in jeans my hair is never "styled" and no one cares here :) but where we used to live i was considered a "tramp"
Seriously though how do those women clean the house, change nappies and cook etc with those long fake nails?! If i paint my short nails its all chipped and ruined within a day!!
Moving away has made me realise how toxic city life really is and from what you have described life in Paris (despite being known here in the UK as the beautiful "city of love") sounds like hell.
As has already been said Mother-Son relationships can be bad, one thing male serial killers have in common is "mummy issues" and boys are also much more likely to be autistic so there is always the chance that he would have additional needs. I think most of us on here with lots of boys have at least one son who has additional needs of some form, they are becoming very common in our society now and even the doctors are very open about mums of girls not needing to worry as much, though of course girls can be affected too. Gender selection is illegal here but if you have an autistic boy they will let you have it to get a girl and supposedly avoid autism.

Im so sad to read that you feel your only option is to take your own life. I lost my mum when i was little and then a few years later i lost my dad and ended up alone at 16. I know your dh would care for your girls if you left but who would care for them if both you and dh were gone?
No amount of messages/letters/videos from you will fill the void your departure will leave in your girls lives, and your dh may very well destroy them as children often never get to read the suicide note, i guess people feel its best they never see it.
Please take the time to look up and read the experiences of people who have lost a parent to suicide, parents who just like you truly believed their children were better off without them and that they were doing the best for their children by dying.
The actual consequences of their death are never what they intended them to be.

All of the things that you want to have die with you so they dont affect your girls wont stop with your death.
They wont be judged for having an "ugly" mum but they will be heavily judged for having a mum who killed herself..
They wont have a mum who "isnt good enough for them" but they will feel that they werent good enough for you.. and then they will believe they aren't good enough for anyone.
You are doing this out of love for them but they will wonder why you didnt love them enough to stay.
You want to set them free from your inadequacies but instead you sentence them to a lifetime of grief and also a deep routed fear that everyone else will die and leave them at any given moment. (i became terrified of my dad dying after my mum went)
Grief affects children for life. It stunts their emotional growth often leaving them unable to emotionally develop beyond the age they were when the loss occured.
They will also be at a hugely increased risk of dying by suicide themselves.. as they say, the cycle continues until someone breaks the chain.
On a different note you will also rob your future self of the chance to raise a boy/s and your future son/s will also be robbed of the life they would of had.
No matter how loud the bad thoughts get know that they are not painting the full picture. There is a saying "kill your life not yourself." Change everything, move away and cut out all the negative people (get ruthless!!) do whatever it takes :heart:

**i also want to second that your english is amazing!

I'm sorry 4blue I did tell Chez but I realize not you... In fact I am a country girl. I wasted 20 years on my life in the countryside (emphasis on 'wasted') because my mother couldn't bear the city life. And what you described about city life is what I lived through in the countryside. It was there that people started calling me "unfeminine" and "weird", there where my every move and decision was heavily and negatively judged. Moving to the city was actually a life-saver and the best decision I ever made and I deeply regret not having been able to move younger and it was a lot of fighting to be able to in the first place.

I have quite the opposite experience as you and others. City life offered me opportunities (that sadly the crisis in 2008 destroyed mainly), showed me things I didn't even know existed, studies that sadly I was now too old to take but that would have changed my professionnal life so much if I could... It offered me the possibility to finally travel abroad. And exactly the reverse you say, as in : with so much people living there, all differents, with different pasts, carreers, lives and problems, I found blessed anonimity. For the first time in my life, in my late twenties, there was no stranger stopping in the street to harass me or openly mock me or even hit me (something that was common occurence where I lived : you didn't like someone, you were free to hit them if they were walking alone and people said you deserved it for not "fitting in"). No one batted an eye at my clothes, the hour I went out or came home, who I was talking with. When I was seen with someone, or doing something, whatever, people immediately forgot about it because they were in a hurry to catch the subway... In the countryside, it only took a week for the WHOLE town to know where you had gone on holidays, with whom, to do what, because everybody had nothing better to do since these towns are so deprived of everything, even movies or restaurants sometimes so let's not talk about other things ! People did spy on you, to a level that would have a dictatorship be proud. I could come back from a week-end at the mountain and have people I barely knew ask me "How was it at XXXXX with your cousin ? Oh, how do I know ? Well you know, some girls from the town went there too that day and recognized you. By the way, looks like you were wearing an ugly pink shirt and you faceplanted on your skies ? Sigh, you really make a fool of yourself anywhere you go, it's so fun !".
And that was out of town so I can't even describe IN the town. People knew where I worked, where I studied, at which hours... If they were bored, they would drop by and not necessarily for a nice talk. I actually had people sometimes pop up in front of my school or workplace and be "told you she would be here" and then proceed to mock me or harass me. Sometimes I had to call the police. Most time nothing came of it specifically because there were "women" in those groupe (who often were the one masterminding the whole thing) and as we know, serial killers are only men with mommy issues right ? Harassers are only sons of rapist ? Women are soft and peaceful and so another woman is safe with them and even if not, it's just "catfight".
Well don't worry, they knew how to throw punches and stones. Even with their painted nails. If I know at all how to fight, it's because I had to hit like a man to get them off, because thank Nature they are still weaker than men, especially when they spend their life dieting.

And why do such things ? Because I was the weird one out. The not-girly. They were eloquent enough on what they blamed me for, even their parents, even some teachers and neighboors and all. It was because I was weird. I didn't dress feminine, I didn't go to get my hair cut every two weeks, I barely put on make-up, never painted my nails... I spent my free time hanging around boys rather than girls, playing video games or drinking and laughing around and being a little rough. And if I was alone, I would put on some movie or read a book instead of shopping for new clothes, perfume, or flirting. Or hanging out with girls talking for hours about love and dresses and the best way to have a pretty skin... Everyday I had at least one person, even in my circle, sigh and tell me "What is wrong in your head ? I can't believe you're happy living like this and let's not talk about your dreams of moving in a big city full of smug assholes, unless you are one... A normal girl likes a quiet life, with her female friends, likes clothes and going to the SPA... Why aren't you the same ? Don't blame others for not treating you well, you know... You're not acting like you're supposed to so it's normal they won't act with respect either.".

And no it wasn't a particularly religious place, not even that backward because there are actually worst backward here. It was the average french country town with like a hundred thousands souls so I can't even IMAGINE life in the places that only amount to a few thousands ones.

And yeah let's not talk about the lack of schools and books and whatever... Living there was like living in limbo, as if I had never been born to begin with. And that was when I was left in peace. When I was not, it was like hell. I swore to myself I would NEVER, EVER let one of my children go through such a thing in such a toxic environnement. The problems I have in Paris ? Not only would they have happened sooner in the country (and would have killed me maybe before I even got around to having children) but they would have been ten times worse ! In Paris things started to be bad when we moved in a quiet, a bit closed-off neighboor and let's not forget that a part of the city's population (and a big part of our actual neighboors) are in fact people from the countryside that came here hoping to replay what they did back in the grasslands. So this explains that too. But it still is a handful compared to a whole town. It hurts most because this time they are attacking the mother, not the woman. But there's no way I will leave the city, not only because I fought to live there but I know what is waiting for me AND the children in the countryside : a slow death with ten times more harassment.

And I'm not build up for life in the country, I never was. I can't bear not being able to talk to someone about the last book I read (they barely know how to anyway and it's not a cliché) or my favorite movie of the year. I can't bear not being able to play music because only what's on radio is "true music". I can't bear having to hide my non-girl-approved pastimes. I won't be able to bear another round of "I know what you did last summer". I am bored by the slow pace of seasons, I am not good at gardening, I hate cycling in the wild, having a picnic under the trees is only good one day or two a month... I don't care about "the space to play" because it's empty space and after you enter the teenage years you get bored and depressed always seeing the same fields, the same faces, doing the same picnics and sports and stuff over and over and over with nothing new ever happening. Going to the school everyone goes to, doing the jobs everyone do even if you feel like you can go further, do better. It becomes a green jail and you stop liking the nature, the birds, the river. Then two things happen. Either your mind rebels and you drive yourself crazy depressed, fighting to leave, to live or you give up and you accept the slow death, turning to empty parties, alcohol and a boring job to forget about it. We saw people sometimes in that town who moved from the big cities for the reasons you gave : it usually only took three to five years for their families to break apart. Those who could left to run back to the big towns while those still clinging to their "green dreams" or simply having no money or health were left behind to spiral into depression and sometimes kill themselves. I saw it first-hand because I loved the people from the cities. They were the only ones not calling me "unfeminine" or blaming me for loving books more than painting my nails.

Well it's really up to personal experience I know. Other people might have seen or heard the opposite. I don't know. But that's what I witnessed and what shaped me. So no, no leaving Paris, unless it's for a bigger town or another country entirely. And yes it's my direct actual circle that is a problem but I didn't quite choose them, these happen to be the people living near me, working with DH, maybe working with me, going to the same shops and bringing their children to the same school. Bad luck. Though many do admit our neighboor IS a bit closed off and different from other parts of the town and that may be what helps the negative ? I think it may also be what is attracting people from the countryside just there : they only moved here for work, not because they wished for a different life, and are more than happy to find a space that is like home and where they can go around spying others again and judging.

For the suicide, I actually know children from suicidal parents and it would be much too long to explain here and even IRL, but let's say that what happened with their families either makes me actually think it's a rather good idea to die when your own loved ones don't care (they were and still are so cruel towards the deceased) or that they can survive this trial simply because... well, I don't know. They have the right mind to go through even that and live happily and in fact, what happened taught them very valuable life lessons. That's a few more people in the world knowing depression is serious and harassment, violence and such is bad and God knows that world really needs them.

Your saying is very good but sadly there's no more plan B. Having a family with a son in it was the life I wanted. I never had huge dreams like going into space or something. I did have some other dreams but they have been ruined years ago with no hope of ever happening now for many reasons. I mourned them. I'm kinda ok with loosing them though it makes me sad. But I've reached my limit in the losses I can take. I have kinda run out of things I wanted to do absolutely. And seeing a bunch of girls grow to adulthood is more of a terrifying prospect than a dream. I could deal with one, maybe two, not three and certainly not more. I can't. I can't see the future so have no way to know how it will end but there are so much ways it could go wrong I simply don't want to face that without a good thing or two under my belt. I won't be strong enough to endure a bad outcome, especially after years of hard work raising them with fear in my belly. It's sad and unfair I know if they happen to be budding nice women but I have no way to tell. I don't want to end up 20 years later, more depressed than ever, with three crazy bullies and not one good thing in my life. What happened with my mother did teach me that being blood-related with another woman is certainly no guarantee to be loved and spared. Can be true with a son too but I have much more positive experiences with boys so I feel much less worried. I have always been less afraid of walking through a group of men outside than just sitting close to a bunch of women. Even now I force myself to go up to group of moms, for my daughters' sakes only, but it feels like standing next to a pool of lava and when the kids will grow into women too, I know being in the same house will be horrible. Waking up everyday in fear of being told "ugh you're not feminine enough, could you die please ?". Cause yes, I did hear that, since childhood. "You're a failure, you're not X or Y enough, the world would be better without you in it.". Parents, adults, people my age, strangers. I'm fighting to make it not happen but I'm so tired, I just want to be able to still be myself as a mom and I can't with daughters. And provided they actually side with me, I'm so afraid of them being targeted the way I was for that. It happened to the girls and even the boys siding with me and it's horrible to see that, good people being threatened with "if you are with that thing, expect to be treated the same way".

Sorry I'm feeling very sick rn remembering all this I can't answer more or to others. I'll see you later.

[4blue2pink]

Dont appologise :) i must have missed the post where you said you grew up in the countryside and only saw the ones where you said you were having problems with your current neighbours and people reporting you etc.. If Paris is where you want to be then stay :heart: But if you feel a different area of the city would be better for you then maybe consider a move within Paris?

You are right, despite their soft feminine exterior women can be truly evil, they will obsess and plot and scheme on a level i dont think many men are capable of. Men are so much more straightforward to deal with. I have also always preferred to be around men and honestly your description of yourself sounds so like me. I never wanted to hang out with girls or go shopping etc.. the girly side of life never interested me and in my case it was always blamed on me not having a mum. Even now as an adult i still feel more comfortable around men.

I probably shouldnt say this and it is a massive generalisation... but from what you describe there seems to be a real bullying culture in France? especially amoung the women. How can it be acceptable for them to behave this way? Why is the bullying not stopped early by their parents or the schools? is it seen as ok for your daughters to bully others just as long as they act very feminine the rest of the time? (Im happy to be corrected here ive never lived in France)
And for the people who told you you should die its horrifying that those sort of comments were allowed to be thrown around so freely and by adults too?!

Your girls wont be like that, why? because they are being raised by you. Someone who understands the damage words can do and also understands the value of kindness in a very unkind world.

You are right that children who lose parents learn big life lessons from it and in a way yes those lessons are actually a positive for them. I know that i was much more self-sufficient than my classmates and as you say also much more aware of what i said and the impacts of my behaviour, it made me grow up quick! But they lose out on so much too and if they are bitter towards the deceased it will be a hatred of what they put them through when they died which wouldnt translate to a hatred of that person if they were alive.

I did read your post on adoption and i completely understand your feelings on not wanting to adopt a child yourself. Would you consider putting your baby girl up for adoption? If you are against it just ignore this suggestion!! I do want to be very clear that i am not suggesting this because i think your baby is better off being adopted, i just want to put it out there in case it seems like a positive option for you :heart: and dont give up on your HT dreams, it sounds as though it could be a real option for you? If it is then go for it, to hell with what others might think or say, this is your life and you live it your way!

Are you able to speak with your husband about your feelings, especially the suicidal thoughts? Sending you love, i hope you feel able to keep posting here, we are all here to support you xx

[atomic sagebrush]

A lot of people don't know this, Sora, but I have been through much of what you describe. I was a hideously ugly child, I was teased and victimized, often mistaken for a boy, I had to have very brutal plastic surgery to make my face normal, and even then everyone rejected me because the only thing worse than being ugly is being a person who had plastic surgery in many people's minds. My parents were never happy with anything I've ever done, still to this day tell me I'm a failure, etc. I married the first guy who would have me and I've had a lot of very bad problems in my marriage because my husband is very controlling. I have no real friends, my family doesn't care if I live or die, I have health problems, I often feel like a slave working to raise children who don't appreciate it, it sucks. I felt like I was not enough of a woman to have a daughter and many of us with all boys feel that way. I mention all this so you know you're not alone, that many of us really do understand your feelings. I really do, 1000% understand.

But even with my desired gender these problems didn't just go away. They still exist and it was never a magic bullet towards fixing me. The thing that I eventually realized was that no one else's opinion matters, that most people exist to tear others down and when I took it to heart, it meant they would win. They never said those bad things because they even believed them, they said them so I would believe them, and so they could have power over me. They would even lie about things to keep that power over me. Once I realized that their criticisms were really lies to try to control me, I was able to embrace my own life with a sense of purpose for pleasing no one other than myself. The best revenge is living well because so many people go through life trying to destroy other people, even getting their "jollies" off of destroying others, and so by refusing to let them destroy you, you really win in the end. They stay their hateful selves, and you are like a butterfly coming out of the cocoon. :heart:

[Sora]

Dont appologise :) i must have missed the post where you said you grew up in the countryside and only saw the ones where you said you were having problems with your current neighbours and people reporting you etc.. If Paris is where you want to be then stay :heart: But if you feel a different area of the city would be better for you then maybe consider a move within Paris?

You are right, despite their soft feminine exterior women can be truly evil, they will obsess and plot and scheme on a level i dont think many men are capable of. Men are so much more straightforward to deal with. I have also always preferred to be around men and honestly your description of yourself sounds so like me. I never wanted to hang out with girls or go shopping etc.. the girly side of life never interested me and in my case it was always blamed on me not having a mum. Even now as an adult i still feel more comfortable around men.

I probably shouldnt say this and it is a massive generalisation... but from what you describe there seems to be a real bullying culture in France? especially amoung the women. How can it be acceptable for them to behave this way? Why is the bullying not stopped early by their parents or the schools? is it seen as ok for your daughters to bully others just as long as they act very feminine the rest of the time? (Im happy to be corrected here ive never lived in France)
And for the people who told you you should die its horrifying that those sort of comments were allowed to be thrown around so freely and by adults too?!

Your girls wont be like that, why? because they are being raised by you. Someone who understands the damage words can do and also understands the value of kindness in a very unkind world.

You are right that children who lose parents learn big life lessons from it and in a way yes those lessons are actually a positive for them. I know that i was much more self-sufficient than my classmates and as you say also much more aware of what i said and the impacts of my behaviour, it made me grow up quick! But they lose out on so much too and if they are bitter towards the deceased it will be a hatred of what they put them through when they died which wouldnt translate to a hatred of that person if they were alive.

I did read your post on adoption and i completely understand your feelings on not wanting to adopt a child yourself. Would you consider putting your baby girl up for adoption? If you are against it just ignore this suggestion!! I do want to be very clear that i am not suggesting this because i think your baby is better off being adopted, i just want to put it out there in case it seems like a positive option for you :heart: and dont give up on your HT dreams, it sounds as though it could be a real option for you? If it is then go for it, to hell with what others might think or say, this is your life and you live it your way!

Are you able to speak with your husband about your feelings, especially the suicidal thoughts? Sending you love, i hope you feel able to keep posting here, we are all here to support you xx

Thank you, sorry for abruptly disconnecting yesterday I was really feeling sick and had to stay in bed the whole day. That's another thing that is hard. I asked about it at the hospital and such but it does seem like I am not built to have "peaceful pregnancies" so no running around, working and partying til one week before birth for me. Which makes it all the harder to have to go through it times and times again to get a boy and doesn't help me feel glad to have a girl instead. I honestly think it would have helped to accept the gender a bit if only the pregnancy was going very well. Even afraid now of having to go through that a fourth time even if I get an HT boy for sure and it's the last. One nurse told me "It happens more to girls who were hit in childhood actually, we found that bearing a child themselves triggers the body's memories of the hits it had to take, even if the mother herself doesn't remember clearly, and it makes her physically sick and can worsen any pre-existing mental condition or start one. Sadly except talking about it, nothing can be done. Things like these need huge and long therapies and the pregnancy only lasts nine months.". But yeah I don't believe in therapies anymore.

I don't know if we can say bullying culture ? Maybe ? But bullying is a huge problem here especially at school. But one thing for sure is there IS a HUGE culture of victim-shaming and I feel like it has worsened a lot this past decade instead of getting better. Most of the time, no matter the kind of bullying or violence you face, when you feel strong enough to talk about it you will ALWAYS get someone, family or authorities, telling you "are you sure you didn't do something to start it ?". It's especially true yes if the culprit is a woman. After all there's a reason pink swayers have it easier here. Funnily or not when I see pink moms here complaining that they were told a girl costs a lot and having all girls will ruin them, it sounds strange because I was never told that, in fact I was told how lucky I am because there will never be violence nor jailtime in my family and how my house must be the most peaceful and quiet place ever ! I am even, which disgusts me, praised for bringing more peace into this world and told that my girls will help build a better Earth and get rid of the violence put in it by men. And am encouraged to push them towards higher places like making them judges or politicians so that they can stop wars and famines. And I've witnessed all boys moms being told "Well, you better rein them in. I hope you can at least make doctors or policemen out of them because heavens know we have had enough criminals running free lately. I sincerely wish you good luck because I know how hard it will be for a lone woman to teach all that bunch some peace."

Well disgressing but yeah, victim-shaming. Basically and there are a lot of existing reports and studies showing that but they are ignored to this day : many victims of violent families or school bullying or harassement at work are told they must have started it somehow. Even if the bullying by itself is judged negatively, there's always a "but" behind it. For children with violent parents, it will be "But maybe if you had been a quieter/cuter/smarter child, it wouldn't have happened or gone to such heights... after all, who hates a quiet/cute/smart child ?" of course, worse if the abuser is the mother. I was told so much, so so much "Oh you must not be a good daughter too, I mean a daughter usually is the pride and joy of a woman, her feminine ally in life... For your mother to reject you so much, you must have had some kind of failing there. Did you always support her and side with her especially against men ? Did you try and be more pretty so she would feel proud looking at you ? Did you try to spend some time with her, hear her out, offer to go to some SPA or watch some romance movie just the two of you ? I'm pretty sure if you did that, she will become the most amazing mom ever and all will be good.". Whenever I said that I couldn't (too young) or tried already, they would then shrug and be like "Oh too bad, she must have some kind of mental illness then or just PMS. A lot of women suffer from these after all, it's nature... My mom/sister/ex/bff/coworker was the same. Well, kid, idk it's too bad. But as a woman yourself, you must understand better than anyone how it is like, right ? I'm sure you yourself are not the kindest thing when you're depressed or have your periods. So just stick by her side cause she needs the support and well, we don't want her going worse and being a pain to other people now, do we ?".
For a boy it's worse cause while they are told (as my friends reported) that they should be stronger or better too, they're also told instead of the "stick by your abuser" : "I hope this won't inspire you to become an abuser too ? You do know it's bad, right ? I hope I will never have someone comes out and complain about YOU being violent to them. Beware, I'll watch you. We can't help you with the abuse but DON'T YOU DARE become the same."
It makes them feel ashamed of having negative feelings at all and I've had such a hard time comforting them, telling them that no, being angry or heartbroken about something is not them magically transforming into abusers/rapists/criminals. And no it doesn't mean they are not strong and not male enough.
If it is at school, you have the good old excuse of not "making enough efforts to fit in". And it's like people have checklists of what a girl or boy should do or like or be like to "fit in". Adults and children alike. For girls it's usually to be perfect everywhere : not only pretty, but happy and smart and sociable. As for pastimes, it has to be everything girly under the sun, not necessarily all at once but at least a couple of things that will vary as girls grow older. Like it was fine for me to like pink and ponies, these were good points... until I was past ten, then it became not enough and I had to add a few more things. Except most of them then included doing your hair, dressing in fashion, stay slim (that's usually around then that most dieting start I noticed... and while adults are worried about us dieting to hard and fainting on them at school, they also low-key praise that as "taking care of your appearance like a true sane girl should"). I wasn't slim, and I didn't know a thing about hair or dressing since I had no female to show me. It was catastrophic until A MAN taught me. And then it went weirdly because how to say ? Since it was a man's advice, it was feminine but in a different flavor and people noticed it and they didn't know how to react. So I was not blamed anymore for not doing that but idk, they were warry because I didn't do it "the right way". There was something "off" about it though they were hard-pressed to tell what exactly. At least boys were more or less okay with it, maybe cause they could smell the "male POV" influencing my clothes.
But yeah the school bullying I got it hard with adults looking the other way like "it's not my fault she can't find a way to fit in" and close circle going "That girl is only trouble ! Can't she even get having a circle of BFFs and flirting RIGHT ? It's, like, the easiest thing in the WORLD !". Until a male teacher and male principal eradicated it finally just before high school because they couldn't stand it. And they had to pressure female teachers into testifying, cause they were afraid of who knows what except for a young female one. All the students involved were expelled, 60% of which were girls. It led to me actually being harassed by the mothers of these students outside of school, who did their best to get me expelled too. And by the way, in school, they try to have us have some responsibilities so regularly students can handle papers (they bring them to teachers, principal and others). On these papers are the private informations of all students. So the bullying wasn't only at school but outside since they had my adress and phone number. I hear it still happens today which is a scandal. The police was called, if only because my parents and their neighboors complained about groups of teens, sometimes from other schools (hey, girls have friends everywhere) ringing the bell of our building at undue hours and asking the "little shit" to be delivered to them to teach her a lesson. And I was accused of ruining everyone's daily life by not being able to fit in.
As for the police they couldn't do anything more than bring them back to their parents. But as I said, here there's a huge victim-shaming culture and bullies are often seen as the true victims, especially if young or female. Everything is blamed expect themselves : the victim triggering them by not fitting him, them having had probably difficult births or early childhood, health problems, maybe they watched too much movies or had someone be violent in front of them and they just innocently thought it was a good thing to do... damn that TV or unknown adult for showing them violence ! They are actually the one getting help, it's very rare actually to expel them like it was the case with me, because it is said "acting violently towards them will just make them more violent instead of teaching them that violence is bad"... so they are shown empathy and left alone to reflect and hopefully choose the right way next time. That foolish idea of "if they are treated with kindness, they will see it's so much better to be kind and stop bullying, they are still kids". As for the victims ? They are advised to leave, go somewhere where they will fit better.
If your family too thinks you are to blame for not fitting in, they don't pull you out. They don't want to bother for a child that "doesn't bother to make an effort and be loved". So I was left where I was and being urged to stop "ruining everyone's lives and causing problems". I thank that male teacher and principal for choosing the opposite and kicking the bullies out cause when it came to mothers (fathers would rather hide in the sand, if there were STILL fathers around mind), I would be the one hanged publicly seriously.
I didn't face too much harassment at work though it only came from women once again and again for the same stupid reasons, that damn checklist now updated to "adult women". Make-up this and make-up that, flirting, oh and there was the new one "having a lover" (faithfulness is so backward and overdone today mind you). Always these damn SPAs, sports but only feminine ones (too bad I was doing archery then), only books allowed are romance and fashion magazines and yeah, psychology you can because you have to perfect yourself mentally. Did have support from men again but yeah, I heard from other people who suffered from more trouble at work that it was once again very hard to be seen and believed as the victim. You were the one triggering your co-workers. And you were blamed from instigating fights in the workplace. Especially women, oh god, most people were like "can't you catfight OUTSIDE ? omg". And here you have things like with my mother, like if the culprit is a woman she's just "depressed or PMSing, you know how it is, you should understand as a woman yourself, plus she's having a hard time with her husband so if you could be so kind as not give her a hard time at work too... oh she's the one making things hard ? But please, understand, if both of you fight instead of working, we will loose money ! There has to be at least one reasonable person in there. Since she can't, it has to be you.".
If you're lucky, you get moved to another building in the same company. If not, you're the one fired, cause you understand "we can't fire someone who is already having it so hard they became a bully, it will only pile more problems on their heads, it would be cruel".
It didn't happen to me but it happened to friends of both gender so...

Again that's my personal experience, some people didn't get that though I think that just means they checked enough on the list to be left alone. In fact if you check enough, you can really have a very quiet life all around. Can you be yourself fully though ? I don't know.
There's also another thing, having backup matters a lot. There's a kinda mentality that "the loner is always wrong". Being alone in life means to many that "no one agrees/sides with you". It's deeply biased since many people are alone because they moved in a new town, or because death sadly took care of any family they had, or if they have parents left they are too sick to back them up...
But yeah I do know of some people not fitting in but being left alone because they have a very loving family behind them. Loving and united families scare bullies (but they can smell it if your family disagree with you actually). It's a bit like elections ? Like the most votes you have etc...
Bullies usually have a huge court (that they keep through promises and fear) so when the fight breaks out, most onlookers and people on the sidelines will first check who has the most support, they see the bully court and usually decide "oh more people on this side, that person must be not only right but great to hang out with... even if they are hitting a girl just now... ?". And off they go siding with them.
I've actually had people calling me years later to apologize for their decision after witnessing the true nature of the person they sided with. They ALL told me a variant of "But you know, here you were, all alone, without even a parent so I thought... well if a family can't stand her, that girl must be a really bad person, maybe she has done horrible things in the past so the bully must be her and she deserves the lesson. I'm really sorry for that, if I had known it was because you were new/orphaned/having sickly relatives or friends, I would have acted much differently and even offered help."

Hmm I did consider putting the girl up for adoption, even DD2, but husband doesn't agree. And I am uneasy because adoption is a mess in France and notoriously hard and there are more risks she will spend eighteen years of her life in orphanages than with a good family. A lot of potential adoptive parents prefer to actually adopt abroad than in our country because of it, which is really sad. And those in control don't want to reflect on that, instead complaining "ugh french don't like their own children, they're always flying away to get other countries' orphans." It has been a problem for decades here. Also I still feel uneasy about abandonning her just because of gender. To save her from hunger and poverty, okay, or if I were too young and/or alone in the whole world... I know I could trust many a pink swayer just here with her and would be okay with it. But sadly we just can't organize an adoption on the forum and be done. And DH is against it anyway.

I cant speak much to my husband. He is where he wanted in life so he doesn't get what I'm going through. Sure he sees I am unhappy but he doesn't understand why. He is happy, I should be, or at least, I just have to change my goals. Sometimes I ask how he would feel if he was asked to "change his goals" because things seem against him doing his dream job or having a family or a roof and he goes "oh of course I would find another way". But it's an easy thing to say when you didn't have to fight for what you have and got it anyway.

And I'm afraid to show too much. I feel like he's already unhappy with me not being feminine enough or happy enough or normal enough and if he tires of me and dumps me... well I don't need that so. At least he agrees to HT for now ?

Btw thanks for my english and I'm sorry about your parents. It's not easy at all to live without them, whatever the reason for their absence.

[Sora]

A lot of people don't know this, Sora, but I have been through much of what you describe. I was a hideously ugly child, I was teased and victimized, often mistaken for a boy, I had to have very brutal plastic surgery to make my face normal, and even then everyone rejected me because the only thing worse than being ugly is being a person who had plastic surgery in many people's minds. My parents were never happy with anything I've ever done, still to this day tell me I'm a failure, etc. I married the first guy who would have me and I've had a lot of very bad problems in my marriage because my husband is very controlling. I have no real friends, my family doesn't care if I live or die, I have health problems, I often feel like a slave working to raise children who don't appreciate it, it sucks. I felt like I was not enough of a woman to have a daughter and many of us with all boys feel that way. I mention all this so you know you're not alone, that many of us really do understand your feelings. I really do, 1000% understand.

But even with my desired gender these problems didn't just go away. They still exist and it was never a magic bullet towards fixing me. The thing that I eventually realized was that no one else's opinion matters, that most people exist to tear others down and when I took it to heart, it meant they would win. They never said those bad things because they even believed them, they said them so I would believe them, and so they could have power over me. They would even lie about things to keep that power over me. Once I realized that their criticisms were really lies to try to control me, I was able to embrace my own life with a sense of purpose for pleasing no one other than myself. The best revenge is living well because so many people go through life trying to destroy other people, even getting their "jollies" off of destroying others, and so by refusing to let them destroy you, you really win in the end. They stay their hateful selves, and you are like a butterfly coming out of the cocoon. :heart:

I'm sorry to hear that Atomic (and thanks for your answers). I get what you say even if it's the reverse for me : I feel like I'm not good enough, deserving enough to have a son. And if like studies show you have to be healthy, feel fertile and have strong personnality to have tons of them, then I feel like it just shows how much of a failure I am if even swaying can't move things in the right direction. Around me, there are women having boys while smoking and drinking and I feel so so worthless. It's not a peaceful life, having to feel less deserving than even someone who doesn't take care of themselves (or others), I wonder how low I will sink in the future, I can't stand it anymore. While I blame DH, I also blame myself. I feel like we are both failures at this point. I hate him for possibly dragging me down and still being lucky and happy in life since he has what he wanted. And I hate myself for not being able to overcome his ans my own failures. For not being good enough to get things going my way without needing outside help or hard work.

I don't think my boy will make every wound disappear, it would be too easy. I already thought pregnancy and motherhood would help and discovered that it did not, in fact it may have worsened some past wounds. But I desperately need the peace, the completeness and the closure he can bring. Sure he can be sickly or he will grow into someone evil, I can't know, and this will open new wounds. But for now I can't know about it and I try to think everything will be alright and he will be alright. I try to resolve things in order and rn I need him in my belly and in my arms, I can't stay like this. It's already so hard and frightening with the Corona. The horizon has completely sunk into darkness with that thing, I can't plan anything (there was already so little to plan). I already had trouble feeling anything but pain about this baby and pregnancy and I hate that everyone IRL is like "just focus on that baby and what you will do with it". Hello people ? I don't even know if I will have to give birth to it alone. How can I plan the future months, years with her when I don't even know if there will be anything past the confinement ? Everyone is saying "nothing will be the same" but noone can tell what awaits. Between those who think it will just be harder and those who think our country is done for (and they're not wrong, something bad is brewing, something that ever way will be hard on simple people like me)... how can I plan really ? I don't even know if we will ever be free to leave our house, let alone our country ever again.

People can't even get married and I should be able to plan things with that kid ? Same I'm looking for HT but with everything closed and planes not flying, I can't do more than think about it. I like to plan throughly so that darkness is not helping, it's driving me crazy. I'm afraid it will take years for things to get back to normal and what if in the meantimes troubles come up in countries that keep us for traveling, or laws are voted to ban HT everywhere ? And what if we lose our jobs and are ruined (most people will after that) and can't pay ? So much fears and no light to nurture at least a small hope. Meanwhile I am getting older... I try to calm down about that because I know a ton of women in Paris who had children late in life, past 35 and managed to have normal pregnancies and both genders easily and were even ready to go for more until their DHs put a stop to it. But HT is different so idk.

I tried to never believe people, I mean it was so obviously cruel and harsh, it couldn't be all true, right ? I survived this by telling myself "they have to be wrong" and I escaped them happy and determined to show the whole world they were wrong. I enjoyed my freedom and I set out to realize my dreams. But now, after so many failures... I mean despite knowing that some of them really were due to circumstances out of my control, this string of failures... How can I explain it ? Bad luck can only go so far. I don't want to, it hurts, but I can't help but wonder if they were right in the end. And everyone always spoke about karma but I happened to learn about what these people have become two years ago and guess what, there's no karma, they all got what they wanted in life, even what they didn't want (and that includes sons) and they are very happy and lucky.

And now I am stuck with a failed sway, a husband getting tired of me and a virus. It seems like every year I hit a new low and I think of when I went to Paris so full of hope, ready to jump into things and fight hard and prove myself... I have trouble telling where I went wrong and I feel so sad about it I can't really do or feel something else. Either I feel like I don't deserve anything or I feel like no matter how hard I try, I will never get it and it will always be given to others instead, preferably bullies. I can't stand that anymore, the fight for nothing, the criticism, the blame, the guilt, loosing the people who care and having those who don't gloat on their high horses. Plus natural or human-made crisis. I just can't, I'm one person and that's too much. I also feel like I'm done fighting and resisting. Some people don't work hard and get everything, others give up at the first break-up, the first lost job... I wonder why should the rules be so wildly different for me ? Why should I hang around longer when some call it quit at barely 20 ? Why should I fight and work so hard when others just put on the waterfalls once and get everything handed to them ?

For now I can't do anything since I have to be alive to even try HT but I do have to plan for if that too fails. And sadly it looks to me like the only thing that will be left for me to plan and control is just ending that life because suicide is one of the only thing you don't need money, hard work, health or family to pull off. There can be earthquakes and tsunami and economical crisis and you can still end your life. I don't want to die like this but I don't want the life I'm having now either. I'd rather think it's a very very sad world when the only thing anyone can do easily is offing themselves. It shouldn't be that way. It doesn't make sense it is. Maybe it's my fault for not having other dreams ? Sometimes I wonder if having big dreams like pulling it off in Hollywood or going to space would have worked better since the normal modest ones fail so terribly.

[ChezIBY]

Hey Sora,

There's a lot in these last exchanges and I am really sorry you are feeling down. Atomic, 4blue and LMSM have all been spot on in their observations imo so I have really been wondering what to add, if anything I have thought and thought about it because your predicament is very moving and I wish I could find words that would reach you.

I do not believe your DH has everything he ever wished for - unless he wished to have a depressed wife in which case he is rather odd. I do think you should confide in him as much as you can as it is his role to support and help you, his wife and the mother of his children.

I wish I had some tips about a therapist or organisation that could help, I have never been confronted with one here in Paris thought and I do feel, like you, that good specialists are hard to come by, and yes, there is a definite lean into medicating in our country. At least one friend of mine saw a therapist who did her good though and I can always find out the name and PM you if you like.

Which city did you grow up in then? It sounds dreadful. And which part of Paris do you guys live in? We are in the southern suburbs near Palaiseau. It is quite ok, people leave you alone. I do agree that your environment sounds toxic and you must look into changing it. Whoever these rubbish people are who put you down all the time/brag about lovers at work/call you dumb because you didn't secure some random job - these people have to go. Leave your life. If you can not actually get rid of them being in your life, atm you have to get rid of their meaning in your life. You have to fill your life with other people who are good for you. If there are no suitable people up for grabs, so to speak, you have to surround yourself by good podcasts, good literature, good music. I am not talking about the sort of rubbish 'fifty quick facts about modern psychology for dummies to sound impressive at the canteen table' or whatever rubbish those girls who were reading to 'better themselves' as you said would read, but real books, written by people who have suffered as you have suffered, and overcame their challenges. We are in a way a sum total of the people we spend our days with and the thoughts they would put in our heads. You can not be the sum total of these ridiculous scarecrows.

We do live in an odd society, warped as if we had all fallen through the looking glass. The things you have gone through are indeed terrible. The girls who tormented you gained nothing by the way, it is only people who are deeply disturbed themselves who would act this way. Anyhow, we do not care about them at this time, we care about you.

You have been told many lies, many falsehoods. You have been told you are ugly. You have been told you are worthless. You have been told you are undeserving. This is all a lie. The truth is this, it is that you are beautiful, worthy and deserving. This is the truth because while you are in the midst of your grief, you speak of ending it all, which is dreadful, bit you do not speak of taking revenge on other people, which is what wicked people do or at least want to do.

You are important and you are valuable in this world. You are in great pain, and so you seek this escape plan. I am very sorry for you, however the absolute truth is that it would be very, very, very bad if you were to see it through. The world would lose something of great value, yourself. What is almost worse is this; you are as you see yourself now, but at the same time you have enormous potential. You are learned, you are clever, you have suffered a lot, you still suffer, you remain uncorrupted. Such a person has enormous potential, you could, in short, become much more than what you already are. And this you know, else you would not have aspired to leave the circumstances that made you suffer in that little terrible town you were brought up in. You left because you knew you could do more. If you were to end your life, you would end with it also all the possible venues of what you might yet become, for the good.

One of the things that our distorted society is warped about is about what our purpose is. There is even that phrase in French, 'en profiter'. I believe that, while life is indeed full of suffering, as we can see, and the world is a sad place, as you mentioned, someone such as yourself could have a life that is full of meaning which would ultimately bring you happiness. Real happiness is found in purpise, in seeing at the end of the journey not that 'i have gotten this and that out of life' but 'here are the lives I have touched, here are the things I have bettered and so the world is a better place for me having been in it'.

We struggle every day in this fight between the truth and the lie, light and darkness. I will not agree with you saying that you giving up or leaving will have little or no impact, sorry. This is false. It will have tremendous, terrible impact. As every day and every decision do in fact, but this would be the ultimate one. Every day and every decision that you take that furthers your vision of what you could become for the best is a victory for all of mankind, for the entire human race, for all the generations that have struggled and tried and fought it out. And every occasion of letting go is defeat and darkness. But endng your life would be the ultimate spiral down, it would mean that everyone who tormented and mocked you won - or rather, the darkness which is in them won, which is terrible for them too by the way because in no way is such a person happy or fulfilled. And instead of light and the higher potential and everything you could have brought forth, there will be a hole in the world forever. It is beyond the scope of our imagination to speculate how devasatting the consequences of this action would be.

I also beg you to look after your nutrition. This matters really really really a lot. I had gd as you know, found this site, got started on the HE diet and took a multivitamin and changed my eating habits consciously for the first time ever. It had a tremendous impact on stabilizing my mood and emotions. I have been on a quest ever since of figuring out what my optimal way of eating is and what is best for the kids' diets. DH and other important people in my life all noticed a difference and the time and energy it freed up for me to do more valuable things, you can't imagine. And this came first from suffering with GD (who knew) and more importantly because Atomic, who had suffered before, instead of being all bitter and deciding, as she had every right to, that she needn't spend her time and energy on helping other women, because why should she, she suffered and so should they - no, she goes around putting her time and energy into keeping this running and helping all of us, and it is helping tremendously in unexpected ways that she could not have imagined. You see, that's one example of potential. But back to nutrition - the whole experience did make me realise that it is very important we eat well and you will not heal, my dear, if you don't try and eat properly. That's very down-to-earth but there you have it.

We will all be dust soon enough you know, there is no need to hurry. Have you ever spoken to someone who was over ninety say? The really old people I have spoken to seem to agree that it goes by rather quicker than we think. So please don't give up before the time is up. And please look after yourself.

[Sora]

Hey Sora,

There's a lot in these last exchanges and I am really sorry you are feeling down. Atomic, 4blue and LMSM have all been spot on in their observations imo so I have really been wondering what to add, if anything I have thought and thought about it because your predicament is very moving and I wish I could find words that would reach you.

I do not believe your DH has everything he ever wished for - unless he wished to have a depressed wife in which case he is rather odd. I do think you should confide in him as much as you can as it is his role to support and help you, his wife and the mother of his children.

Yes, I don't think DH is happy with me. Back when we met I was barely free from my parents and even so, not 100% and still not quite free from that town. He thought he was getting a hopeful, happy girl who had lost a ton of weight as a result of not fearing to even take a breath, who had fighting spirit because she wanted to prove everyone that she was a worthy human being and smiled a lot more... and I guess seemed normal enough to get a life, a job, and have PP children maybe. But not even a year into our relationship the effects of the 2008 crisis happened. I lost the place I was renting, sold to save the owner from financial troubles due to the crisis so I was basically kicked out. No roof meant no more studies and no more job in Paris, I had to go back to that town. My parents celebrated my failure with "I told you so, you're unable to accomplish something worthy" as did everyone there, so happy to see me fail to escape them. And the harassment started anew. Oh and did I mention that DH is from that same town and so is his whole family ? Well what they saw was their son replacing a very pretty, rich, medicine student girl (unfaithful but who cares when you are beautiful and smart ?) with an ugly girl who had just lost her opportunity to hit in life and had a lot of trouble finding a job and a place to rent to even make ends meets. I was in the streets for a year, couch surfing here and there and depending on the charity of others. That's why they hated me and tried so hard to pressure their son into leaving me. They still think like that, they have never apologized nor tried to meet their grandchildren even once. Not a card, not a phone call.

I don't care but DH suffers from it and finds consolation in everything else going fine for him. He says he doesn't blame me but let's be serious here. I'm the only thing wrong in his life. I'm an easy thing to change. He's younger than me, attractive enough, with a solid job he loves and a roof. Why do you think some women from his work or living near us are so harsh towards me ? Why do they try their hardest to paint me as unfeminine, a bad wife AND mother ?

He may not want to bother with a divorce now, but for how long ? While what I need to get better is so hard to find, will take years to rebuild, he just has to dump me and it will only take him a few short months to replace me with a beautiful, smart, successful girl with a loving family, whom his parents might like more and who knows if he one day decides he wants that, able to bear a son ?

Do you really think he wants to bother with understanding and support ? He already didn't when his snoring took a toll on my health a few years ago, he didn't when his coworkers and neighboors attacked me, instead calling me paranoid and we know how well that ended... He's still not sorry for that, it's not his fault he's got health troubles and people around him acted their own bad way, period ! Oh yes he's "disappointed". But he doesn't understand why that would destroy me so. He doesn't understand like many DH about the need for having children of both genders, he's okay with girls. I'm already lucky he isn't against HT though he's not entirely comfortable with it either.

I do think if he really loved me and thought I was worth it, he would have supported me like you said and reacted violently to anyone even badmouthing me. He didn't. He thinks it's enough to assure me he doesn't think the same. He thinks it's enough to say it's not his fault. But his health problem IS his fault, I didn't cause it, nor am I the one keeping him from having it treated. And the way his circle acts is HIS responsibility too. As I would feel responsible for anyone in my circle demeaning or assaulting him or the children. I wouldn't go and shrug like "omg I didn't ask them to do that, I'm disappointed". There would have been hell to pay. These people would have gotten screamed at and maybe hit so hard they would have regretted being born at all.

For food, don't forget, I did HE like you. But it didn't change anything for me. While I did feel a positive difference on my health (though my body couldn't deal weight-wise) it didn't work to bring me a son and I take it as proof that I must be really broken inside, so much so that a diet can't save anything. I don't want to see food ever again, it has just caused me suffering, no matter what, how or when I eat. It's no good when I skip meals, am not careful, but it's not good either when I have. Meanwhile, the women around me who criticizes me so much go with alcohol, smoking (and not only cigarettes), barely sleep, some are vegans but some eat... whatever, meat, carbs, sugar, Burger Kings, well anything that would make any doctor or nutritionnist cry rivers of blood. And they are BEAUTIFUL ! Thin, with perfect soft skin, long hair, never put on weight even while pregnant, can dress in teenagers' sizes, do all kind of sports if they so want, work hard, still party one week before or after giving birth... And of course they have PP ! Or all boys ! I have... had... to cross their paths everyday ! God, this peculiar year especially, while I was hopeful for some who wanted a boy or were onto their second child after a girl, there were some where I was thinking "Omg with the diet they have and the life they lead... and even fertility troubles here and there, Dh or them, plus age, plus not taking care of themselves enough, there's NO WAY they will pop a boy, just no way ! They are too broken inside/outside to be approved as "good for male heirs" by Nature.". But guess what they had ? Without changing a thing ?

And I want to scream WHY NOT ME ? I changed things, I tried so hard ! Why am I the only one failing and failing and failing ? Didn't I loose enough, fail enough ? How long is it going to carry on ? And I'm even afraid of HT, after so much failures, I can see very well my money going into paying another failure. I hope science can force its way to get my body to have a son, if I need to mutilate it so it would work, I would. I will have to go through so much even though I am able to conceive naturally... I never thought I would have to go through IVF, it frightens me. Even moreso because I can't even go through it at home, in a place that speaks my language with faces I knew. I will have to go some place I don't know at all, with strangers, to ruin myself financially and health-wise, while others pop sons in the comfort of their homes, on a couch, chain-smoking... I think it tells a lot of the kind of deep failure I am if I can't even do what these women are able to.

You say people would have won if I die but they HAVE already won. Everything they promised has happened. I couldn't get a roof by myself, find a job, I lost the people who supported me, through death, through life circumstances, through my failures. I lost any respect DH may have had for me and I'm the only dark spot in his life, so much so he's not eager to marry nor to worry about my physical or mental health when he's the one holding some of the cards... And after all, don't they say "when you fail too much at something, it's that it's not meant to be so you should give up and start anew". There are so much people going around, telling swayers to give up because they're not "meant" to have their DGs... So taking that into account, when you fail at life, what would be the logical answer ? And no, it won't leave a hole anywhere. I would have needed to accomplish something for that. DH will find better, the girls will be too young to remember me and I can't bring them anything good, the family doesn't care and for my friends it's the same, they have their families, other friends, their lives are going well, one dead friend won't even leave a dent. It won't even be an enigma to ponder over, they know first-hand how hard I failed. They're just good enough people not to blame me for it.
I'll leave behind either relieved and happy people or sad people who will have enough love and success to go through it anyway. For the latters I will just become a distant memory after two years that only alcohol can bring back and for the firsts... well, certainly one of their best successes : "how I rid the world of a monster". Will make a nice story to tell to their children.

I know it's still too dark a thought. What I need rn is not a therapist or organization to feed me sweet lies about me mattering or something good that might happen (when ? at 100 years-old ? I've been waiting for 20 years already for that good karma to happen, I'm aging, I could very well get cancer next year, I can't spend my life waiting for an hypothetical dreamy "better after")... I need someone who may have a way to help me get a son, or know of some information I may have missed on. I need a group who would help me escape that country and ask another for help because it's going to be so very hard... I'm starting to ask around already but there's such a taboo on it, it's so very hard. Maybe some practicians do know something but it's not like in UK or Australia where it seems some of them are actively helping out because they also don't approve of GS being forbidden. Here they're already against NIPT, so you can imagine how they feel about GS. They are already having sweet trouble with IVF even after so long.

I mean I know it's natural to say positive things and give advice to get better but considering my past, it's positive things and advice I have already received before, regarding other bad times, other traumas. After a while, the "it will get better", "you have so much to live for", "you are worth it" don't work anymore. It's no one's fault really but well-meaning people are literally fighting against fate here... and a bunch of other people constantly out to break anything they might heal. I feel so bad about it too. Guilty for the things that came from me or my body, bad for unfair life destroying all their hard work otherwise. I'm so ashamed I can't face them anymore, especially not now, not after that new failure. And I can't look forward to anything, I just can't. Even the most simple project looks like it will crash now. After having dared to hope this past year and it going so wrong, I'm frozen, stuck. I can barely think logically. Sometimes I feel like I won't be able to go through the next day without making some world-ending mistake. I'm even afraid to just think of the future because it feels like something will hear me and make sure it's a bad future waiting ahead. It doesn't make sense but I can't stop it. I feel very much threatened by... something that I can't fight against or at least not alone. It's the most scary thing I've ever experienced. On the other hand I don't want meds because I know them, I know their effects and I can't be weakened, not now, not while there's danger lurking and no one to protect me from it.

Plus I've read the recent studies about how these impact your fertility and if I want to have a son at all, I can't afford to lower my chances so much. Maybe it's even the meds I've taken before, or maybe even the physical and mental traumas that have turned me into such a broken body only able to pop daughters for "survival". But I can't think like that or I will hate myself so much more.

Sorry I didn't want to make it long and again my thoughts are getting messy. I hate that too. Having no control, being messy. And even that didn't help me be more blue.

[atomic sagebrush]

Please don't ever, ever think that these things mean your fertility will be lower and you can't have a son. I have had some of my sons at times when I was going through terrible things and so I know it can still happen for you. :heart: