Swaying after miscarriage

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Today was confirmed that I am having a miscarriage. I should've been 7+4 but there was no hb and measure 6+2. :broken: we haven't decided what we are doing yet, swaying again, just ttc without swaying or just calling it quits. But if we sway again, I have a question or 2:
1. I was on the le diet for 14 weeks and been off 5 weeks now. If I start it next week, do i need to wait at least 6 wks before ttc? Or should I start the diet and ttc whenever I O again? Whether it's 2 weeks or 6 from now.
2. Does a miscarriage sway enough to trump the 6 wks of diet?
If we try swaying again, I would like to do diet, rephresh only no sooner than 2 days before o, low calories on and around o day, hurry up fr (worked well for us with unpredictable o), and hopefully the miscarriage will sway pink enough with those things to give us a HEALTHY dd.
What do you all think? Any experience conceiving right after a miscarriage?

[kittendreams]

Hi Raising I don't have any advice I'm sure Atomic will have some good advice for you but I just wanted to say how sorry I am that you are going through this I know how much you put into your sway and I truly hope you fall pregnant again and have your beautiful rainbow girl xx

[Throwaway_panther]

I am so, so sorry for your loss. I know how hard it can be to sway so hard and lose the baby -- sometimes over and over. I am truly hoping this was awful luck and loss and your next pregnancy is your sticky, healthy girl!

Getting pregnant after loss seems to sway girl per atomic. I don't know if "offsetting" the 6 extra weeks on diet is the right mindset -- there's not a points system in different columns that sort of "adds" up to a really strong sway or not. It's all just variables towards chance. You were swaying those for quite awhile beforehand -- longer than you were off -- so I'd think you're not out of the running of being considered LE imo. It takes awhile to offset the diet -- probably longer than the few weeks of your pregnancy <3

[atomic sagebrush]

Oh no I'm so sorry to read this.

Just pick it up with diet and then try whenever you're ready. The loss makes up for the time off diet, we have found.

There is NO benefit to low calories on and around O Day. This does nothing (if doing that worked, we'd diet for one day!) and can delay or even stop ovulation and I"ve seen it stop ovulation for tons of people.

[atomic sagebrush]

I am so, so sorry for your loss. I know how hard it can be to sway so hard and lose the baby -- sometimes over and over. I am truly hoping this was awful luck and loss and your next pregnancy is your sticky, healthy girl!

Getting pregnant after loss seems to sway girl per atomic. I don't know if "offsetting" the 6 extra weeks on diet is the right mindset -- there's not a points system in different columns that sort of "adds" up to a really strong sway or not. It's all just variables towards chance. You were swaying those for quite awhile beforehand -- longer than you were off -- so I'd think you're not out of the running of being considered LE imo. It takes awhile to offset the diet -- probably longer than the few weeks of your pregnancy <3

:agree: exactly. There's not a points system (much better put than I put it) it's just that the loss does sway pink and you were on diet a good deal of time before. Plus many people don't get pregnant that first month out anyway so it's very likely that you'll end up with the 6 weeks on diet anywya.

[Kelbear]

So sorry for your loss, hoping you get your sticky pink bean very soon.

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Thank you everyone. It was very heartbreaking to experience passing the tissue that same day too. What made it the worst was it was the 1st time my dh didn't go to the 1st appt with me. He left work immediately and came asap but it would've been better if he had been there and I know he regrets that.

Thanks throwawaypanther. You're probably my right (atomic too) I was on the diet for sooo long that it shouldn't be completely offset yet. And I was wrong about how long I've been off the diet. It wasn't 5 weeks it was 3 bc I didn't quit the diet until my bfp. It was a glorious 3 weeks of eating whatever I wanted whenever (figured I'd better before MS set in). I have been researching it and it seems that trying immediately has shown to lower risk of repeat mc. So I am leaning towards trying asap. Plus now I feel like I just want a healthy baby. Yea a girl would be nice but omg, I don't want to mc again even if it's not my dd. I realized how much more important the health of the baby and pregnancy is over gender. Not that I didn't know but I didn't fully understand. My dh and I are giving it a few days before we talk about ttc again. I am sure we will tho. I think this made him realize how much he wanted #4 too.

One more question, does mc delay o typically? I know everyone is different but if it typically doesn't then that means I should ovulate in about 3 wks.

[atomic sagebrush]

Just to clarify, that data does NOT show that getting pregnant soon after a miscarriage lowers risks of having another. It shows that women who are able to get pregnant again quickly are less likely to have another miscarraige than those who can't get pregnant or are hesitant to try again soon for some reason (like complications, still feeling unwell, etc.) I really hate to see people take that data and then feel they need to try and conceive immediately before they are ready.

The pattern with ovulating after a loss is that there is no pattern. I'm sorry I wish I could help but people have ovulation all over the map and I would expect it to come at a different time than it has in the past.

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Sorry atomic, I actually do understand that. The study I read lumped women who conceived 0-3 after a mc and it showed a significant decrease in consecutive mc. It has not made me want to try immediately just bc of that but has made me feel like that's ok and wouldn't hurt anything. I wouldn't be surprised at all if dh wants me to have at first and I probably wouldn't argue.

[Mom25boys]

Hey. Just wanted to send tons of hugs your way. Forget science and forget other peoples experiences. Just feel better the best you can and you will be ready soon enough and you will know it when it's the right time. Hang in there.

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[RaisingGentlemen3]

Thanks mom25boys. I really appreciate your sweet words and insight ❤ I hope and pray you have a happy and healthy 9 months!

[atomic sagebrush]

Sorry atomic, I actually do understand that. The study I read lumped women who conceived 0-3 after a mc and it showed a significant decrease in consecutive mc. It has not made me want to try immediately just bc of that but has made me feel like that's ok and wouldn't hurt anything. I wouldn't be surprised at all if dh wants me to have at first and I probably wouldn't argue.

:agree: exactly. That's what I want you to take away from that.

Some people get in a huge hurry to try again even if they don't feel ready because of that study so whenever someone mentions it I always like to explain.

[RaisingGentlemen3]

So I have my follow up appt on Tues. I am really hoping for low hcg, doubt it'll be below 50 but it would be nice! By that time it'll be almost 2 wks since the mc. My dh and I talked about ttc again and he wants to make sure I talk to my Dr about the swaying stuff we are doing to make sure we won't increase our chances of another mc. All we plan to do (like before) is diet (he wants me to increase to at least 1400 cals), hurry up fr (refuses abstain now bc it can cause unhealthy sperm), one attempt at +opk, post mc (instead of post bcp), skipping breakfast, coffee, fiber and folate,and rephresh every 3 days once clears by Dr. I don t see how any of this could increase chances of another mc...?

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Also, have you heard of increased chances of conceiving twins post mc? I have non identical twins in my mom's side and my mom was one except her twin was stillborn. One of my brothers had one for a while but his twin reabsorbed randomly.

[atomic sagebrush]

I really can't stress strongly enough that you SHOULD NOT talk to your doctor about swaying stuff. They will make fun of you for believing it is possible, make you feel bad (like you caused your miscarriage) and tell you many things that are actively untrue like that you need to take a prenatal before getting BFP (even though the ACOG itself says that you don't.) or that you should do Shettles timing or some other nonsense thing that has been debunked 25 years ago. I just hate to see you guys get put in a position that will likely be upsetting and possbly end up with you getting bullied or talked into things that may really lower your chances of pink for no reason.

I personally like most people to eat 1500+ calories. Very few should be on less than that (maybe 1-3% of people.)
Fine to do FR instead of abstain. Everything else looks fine.

[atomic sagebrush]

Also, have you heard of increased chances of conceiving twins post mc? I have non identical twins in my mom's side and my mom was one except her twin was stillborn. One of my brothers had one for a while but his twin reabsorbed randomly.

Not in any reliable way - the family history is much much more likely to boost odds of twinning than TTC after a loss might. I'm racking my brain even trying to think of anyone who got twins after a loss and I'm not coming up with anyone off the top of my head - certainly not very many people that's for sure. Maybe in a study in 1000 people, but not any kind of very strong correlation, that's for sure.

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Maybe I can just tell her what I was doing last time around the time I got pregnant but not tell her it was for swaying. Like just dieting to lose weight, rephresh for help after my af, etc. That way I avoid being talked down to and still get the answers my dh wants. I was also going to ask her if I should monitor hcg by taking pregnancy tests until I get a negative that way if I get pregnant before af, I know I had a neg test first so it's not residual hcg. I thought personally, I could use opks until they're negative and then bulk internet pregnancy tests. Then once the pregnancy tests go negative start opks again and wait for o. What do you think?
Here is an opk I took today at 130pm. I think it is slightly negative or barely positive...what do you think? I took one at 6 weeks and it was crazy blazing positive. Took one last week that was still blazing but not as much as when pregnant. 40555

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Not in any reliable way - the family history is much much more likely to boost odds of twinning than TTC after a loss might. I'm racking my brain even trying to think of anyone who got twins after a loss and I'm not coming up with anyone off the top of my head - certainly not very many people that's for sure. Maybe in a study in 1000 people, but not any kind of very strong correlation, that's for sure.

I'm glad you haven't! Idk how I came across it but it worried me some bc of my family history (kind of) of twins. Sure hope we have ONE healthy bean in there this next time

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Should I ask my Dr about taking aspirin? The stats on your data sheet are pretty good!

Also, what about olive leaf extract for dh?

[atomic sagebrush]

:agree: Perfect. People get pregnant all the time doing things like dieting and using lubes, etc. and docs are used to having questions "did this contribute to my loss" and putting people's minds at ease. It's only when they think you're doing something they haven't heard of and may personlly disagree with that they get all preachy about it. So that makes sense to me.

If it gives you mind to test out the HCG that's fine. I don't think it's necessary but it is fine to do that if you like. I'd consider that test still positive but not a blazing positive to be sure.

[atomic sagebrush]

Should I ask my Dr about taking aspirin? The stats on your data sheet are pretty good!

Also, what about olive leaf extract for dh?

No. 65% is LOWER than the overall success rates of the site and we had a statistician analyse the results and found that aspirin was not working - same number of people getting girls with and without it. 65% means something is just piggybacking on the overall success rate of the site.

The "80%" success for cranberry and aspirin I believe to be a fluke caused by small sample size. One sway going the other way would put that right down to the overall success of the site. It is very dangerous to take cran and aspirin together and I have never recommended that.

Plus, aspirin may actually CAUSE miscarriages for many people, possibly many more than it helps prevent. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-19962/Could-taking-aspirin-trigger-miscarriage.html

OLE for DH is fine, provided he's not taking cranberry. It is cranberry OR OLE, not both.

[ABC.2606]

I'm so sorry to hear about your miscarriage, RaisingGentlemen3. It's such an awful thing to go through and I feel your pain :(

I had 3 m/cs between Aug 2017 & March 2018. The first two were very early @ 5 weeks and thus happened naturally but the 3rd was very similar to yours - I went in at 7 weeks and the sac measured 5w4days - no HB or fetal pole. Went back a week later and confirmed that the pregnancy was gone. Had a D&C because I had NO bleeding or signs that my body had "figured it out" that the baby was gone. I had been on LE for 1 year at the point but had been off of it (like, really off of it!) for 6 weeks during that 3rd pregnancy/miscarriage so I was in that same dilemma that you are in terms of do we try again quickly or do I wait so I can be back on the diet longer. In my case, I got my AF 3.5 weeks after the D&C but as far as I know didn't ovulate before that AF came. After that AF came we waited it out one full cycle and then tried again the next cycle (and I got pregnant), so I was back on the diet for 8 weeks prior to ovulation. Because I had had 3 m/cs in a row, during those 8 weeks I went through a bunch of fertility testing trying to see if there was a clear cause for my losses - there wasn't. Anyways, so when I ovulated 8 weeks after the D&C, we conceived & we got twins!! Boy & girl - I'm currently 24 weeks. But, I was also on Clomid and I'm about to turn 35 so those were likely the main reasons for conceiving twins :) I have read loss might increase the risk of twins but if atomic doesn't see any clear evidence I would trust her on that!

A couple of things to respond to your questions... Like atomic said, I would not talk to your doctor about your swaying. You really aren't doing anything in terms of swaying that would increase the risk. I know there is some stuff out there about caffeine and m/c risks - but I'm not sure how proven it is. I switched to decaf/ half-caff after my 1st loss though so you could try that. But I know it's natural to worry and feel like the things you are doing are maybe the cause of the loss - I felt that and went through A LOT of guilt during all those losses. But after having gone through 3 losses in a row and then ending up with two seemingly very healthy twins on the 4th time around, I've really come to believe (as many others on here with losses will tell you as well), that it really usually is just bad luck! A bad sperm, a bad egg, or just things not going quite "right" at conception and there's really nothing you can do. And having a loss (or 3 in my case!) absolutely does not mean you wont get a perfectly healthy babe the next time around, even if you change nothing at all about your diet or lifestyle! Lots of ladies on here are proof of that!! I still tell my doctor how odd I feel like it is that we had loss after loss and then suddenly ended up with healthy twins. Also - I did tell my fertility specialist that I had lost a lot of weight (50 lbs) over the year prior to that 3rd miscarriage and that I had been on a "lower calorie diet" but didn't tell her why. I asked her if she thought that would have had anything to do with my losses and she said absolutely not. So hopefully that's a little reassurance for you as well!

RE aspirin... I know atomic is very opposed to it both b/c it doesn't really help swaying & b/c there may be risks with it. But to be transparent with my own experience, I did take it before conceiving this time and have taken it every day this pregnancy. In my case, my OB started recommending it after my first loss. I ignored him, ignored him when he pushed it again after my 2nd loss, and then after my 3rd I decided to listen to him because I had guilt after that 3rd loss that maybe, just maybe, if I had taken it, I wouldn't have lost that third pregnancy. For me I was at the point where I felt I had to try something and that I needed to listen to what my doctor was telling me to do. I have no idea if it has had any effect in my being able to keep these babies this time or not but just to put that out there. I know it's controversial and I'm not trying to contradict atomic at all b/c she's the expert and has done the research. But, I don't regret taking it this time - it's possible I'm just one of those women that it does for whatever reason help.

I also took CoQ10 for several weeks before getting pregnant this time - I know that it is also not "proven" in terms of improving egg quality, but it is safe to take, sway-neutral and a lot of women going through fertility issues do use it. Ubiquinol is the best form if you take it.

Good luck - I know it's frustrating and painful. I hope you have a beautiful rainbow baby (preferably little girl!) coming soon!! Don't give up hope! I almost did after the 3rd and I'm very glad I didn't :)

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Atomic I was looking at the stats again a saw raspberry/peppermint tea us 115%?! So does that mean those women drank both raspberry and peppermint tea during their sway? Is it raspberry leaf tea that's referred to in this case? I am considering adding this in as it has such high stats but I don't fully understand how they help? I was looking into rlt and it raises estrogen but possibly lowers pH? Sorry all the questions. I might have drank too much coffee! Haha

[RaisingGentlemen3]

ABC thank you so much for the information and encouragement! I am so sorry you went through so much with 3 mc in a row! I hope this doesn't happen to me but yes does make me feel better at what your fertility doc said about the diet and all. I really don't understand how aspirin can help sway girl or help with a pregnancy but it is nice to know it might have worked for you.
Also, congrats on twins! I kind of want twins but Idk how I would handle it with 3 boys and homeschool too. I am so happy they are healthy and things are going well for you! Did you notice any difference in pregnancy symptoms before you found out they were twins?

[atomic sagebrush]

Atomic I was looking at the stats again a saw raspberry/peppermint tea us 115%?! So does that mean those women drank both raspberry and peppermint tea during their sway? Is it raspberry leaf tea that's referred to in this case? I am considering adding this in as it has such high stats but I don't fully understand how they help? I was looking into rlt and it raises estrogen but possibly lowers pH? Sorry all the questions. I might have drank too much coffee! Haha

That is an error that I would like to see removed from the stats. Something cannot sway more than 100% obviously, and it's some sort of error in the spreadsheet. IT makes no sense for pep tea to be in the overall success of the site, then for something called raspberry/peppermint when I have NEVER EVER recommended rasperry tea (as I believe it sways blue). I have had a very small handful of women use it when they'd gone on a really long time not getting pregnant and it was much more of a "Dumbo's feather" that I gave them to make them think they were changing something rather than out of me believing it was really going to help them, to be honest. So long story short, that has to be a mistake, doesn't make any sense at all as no one has ever recommened RRLT for girls, and peppermint tea has indicated itself to do nothing, so I'd not bother with either of them.

I don't do the stats as it's unethical for me to do so, thus I have to rely on unpaid volunteers and so there are severeal things in the stats that are not as I would have them. I have an essay on why not to read too much into the stats here: https://www.genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/43555-thoughts-stats.html

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Hey atomic! Just got home from the Dr and all checked out GREAT! she confirmed nothing I did caused the mc but did suggest at least 1400 calories since we will be ttc. She also encouraged me to go ahead and try again this cycle! She said she's noticed if a woman gets pregnant right after a mc (1st o or 2nd o) she's more likely to have a healthy pregnancy than miscarry again. So she was really thinking it should be a healthy sticky bean next time! Also gave me the clear for rephresh as well. She didn't do any labs or urine pregnancy tests bc the US showed no retained tissue. So she said I will O when I O and hopefully she will see me back soon! I went a head and took a Wal-Mart $1 pregnancy test to see if it was still positive and it was very very faint! Here's the pic40573

[ABC.2606]

ABC thank you so much for the information and encouragement! I am so sorry you went through so much with 3 mc in a row! I hope this doesn't happen to me but yes does make me feel better at what your fertility doc said about the diet and all. I really don't understand how aspirin can help sway girl or help with a pregnancy but it is nice to know it might have worked for you.
Also, congrats on twins! I kind of want twins but Idk how I would handle it with 3 boys and homeschool too. I am so happy they are healthy and things are going well for you! Did you notice any difference in pregnancy symptoms before you found out they were twins?

Nope - not any difference in symptoms early on :) As the 1st tri went on, I was a lot more tired than I was in my first two pregnancies (but I also have two small boys to take care of now!) and now in the 2nd trimester I'm WAY bigger than I was at this point with my first two pregnancies and I have more back pain!!!

[atomic sagebrush]

Great news!! Thanks so much for updating us!

Yep nearly there - do be aware we've had a few people ovulate VERY fast after having a preg test that light. Like within a few days even! So while it isn't super common, it is possible, just keep your eyes peeled for any signs that O is approaching.

[atomic sagebrush]

ABC thank you so much for the information and encouragement! I am so sorry you went through so much with 3 mc in a row! I hope this doesn't happen to me but yes does make me feel better at what your fertility doc said about the diet and all. I really don't understand how aspirin can help sway girl or help with a pregnancy but it is nice to know it might have worked for you.
Also, congrats on twins! I kind of want twins but Idk how I would handle it with 3 boys and homeschool too. I am so happy they are healthy and things are going well for you! Did you notice any difference in pregnancy symptoms before you found out they were twins?

Aspirin was said to sway pink due to lower pH but teh science of pH is very very sketchy and when we tracked our results, the aspirin didn't help, same number of people got girls with and without it.

The reason why aspirin was thought to possibly help with losses was because it's a blood thinner, and one theory of loss is that some of them are caused by blood being too "clotty" (which for some people is 100% proven, some women do have blood that clots too easily and that may prevent a fertilized egg from being able to implant.)

BUT. And this is a BIG BUT!

For those of us (the majority) who do not have issues with our blood clotting too easily (and some of us like me who actually seem to have overly thin blood and have issues with bleeding and bruising) adding aspirin into the mix can actually be a total disaster and likely cause miscarriage because for a baby to implant, it's not only necessary for the blood to not be too thick, but also not to be too THIN. You don't want there to be bleeding that starts and can't stop, and additionally it is proven that there is some need for inflammation both in the ovaries for ovulation to happen correctly, and in other parts of our body for pregnancy to occur. We don't WANT to be loading up on blood thinners or anti-inflammatories (aspirin is both) at a point in time where we need our bodies to be able to accurately control the clotting ability of our blood and undergoing various processes that require swelling/inflammation to happen properly. Not to mention that aspirin may harm or even kill YOU yourself by thinning your blood excessively.

In ABC's situation, she had had 3 losses and she wanted to try the aspirin despite not having a proven clotting disorder, and that was fine for her to do that. Maybe it helped her; after all the stuff we don't know about conception is huge and the stuff we do know is minor - she may have had a clotting disorder we don't know how to test for yet. But that doesn't mean that everyone should now extrapolate that to themselves. We have not only our experiences here (I've seen WAY more people for whom aspirin seemed to cause harm than for those who did not have a diagnosed blood clotting disorder and yet were still helped by it) but also studies that seem to indicate for people who don't need it, it's worse than nothing. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/aug/19/healthsection.medicineandhealth https://www.verywellfamily.com/truths-and-myths-about-causes-of-miscarriage-2371758

Most losses are chromosomal and have nothing to do with clotting anyway. So I just really want you guys to proceed with great caution and not add in aspirin out of an assumption that it will prevent another miscarraige. You very well may end up MORE likely to have another miscarriage, not less.

And above all else, anyone who uses aspirin, please wean onto it and wean off of it to give your body time to adjust its clotting factors accordingly. You don't want to go from having your blood be super thin from taking aspirin (during which point your body will make massive amounts of clotting factors to compensate) to super thick by stopping the aspirin suddenly (your body will continue making larger amounts of clotting factors for some time after stopping aspirin) And this is especially true when pregnant, as not only does your blood clot more easily, but you have a placenta and umbilical cord involved both of which can be very negatively affected by blood clots.

[ABC.2606]

Aspirin was said to sway pink due to lower pH but teh science of pH is very very sketchy and when we tracked our results, the aspirin didn't help, same number of people got girls with and without it.

The reason why aspirin was thought to possibly help with losses was because it's a blood thinner, and one theory of loss is that some of them are caused by blood being too "clotty" (which for some people is 100% proven, some women do have blood that clots too easily and that may prevent a fertilized egg from being able to implant.)

BUT. And this is a BIG BUT!

For those of us (the majority) who do not have issues with our blood clotting too easily (and some of us like me who actually seem to have overly thin blood and have issues with bleeding and bruising) adding aspirin into the mix can actually be a total disaster and likely cause miscarriage because for a baby to implant, it's not only necessary for the blood to not be too thick, but also not to be too THIN. You don't want there to be bleeding that starts and can't stop, and additionally it is proven that there is some need for inflammation both in the ovaries for ovulation to happen correctly, and in other parts of our body for pregnancy to occur. We don't WANT to be loading up on blood thinners or anti-inflammatories (aspirin is both) at a point in time where we need our bodies to be able to accurately control the clotting ability of our blood and undergoing various processes that require swelling/inflammation to happen properly. Not to mention that aspirin may harm or even kill YOU yourself by thinning your blood excessively.

In ABC's situation, she had had 3 losses and she wanted to try the aspirin despite not having a proven clotting disorder, and that was fine for her to do that. Maybe it helped her; after all the stuff we don't know about conception is huge and the stuff we do know is minor - she may have had a clotting disorder we don't know how to test for yet. But that doesn't mean that everyone should now extrapolate that to themselves. We have not only our experiences here (I've seen WAY more people for whom aspirin seemed to cause harm than for those who did not have a diagnosed blood clotting disorder and yet were still helped by it) but also studies that seem to indicate for people who don't need it, it's worse than nothing. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/aug/19/healthsection.medicineandhealth https://www.verywellfamily.com/truths-and-myths-about-causes-of-miscarriage-2371758

Most losses are chromosomal and have nothing to do with clotting anyway. So I just really want you guys to proceed with great caution and not add in aspirin out of an assumption that it will prevent another miscarraige. You very well may end up MORE likely to have another miscarriage, not less.

Atomic I should have also mentioned that I have some underlying autoimmune issues so maybe it’s possible that the anti inflammatory aspect of aspirin has helped me - who knows. I read an article months ago about a study where it seemed to help women with repeated miscarriages who had underlying inflammation. My Obgyn felt strongly about it because he said over his long career he’s seen women with repeated miscarriages use it with success even if he doesn’t understand fully why it helps. My fertility specialist doesn’t believe in it though. But again after 3 unexplained miscarriages I just no longer felt comfortable ignoring his advice. But - it’s clearly one of those very controversial things still that even doctors can’t agree on! :)


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[RaisingGentlemen3]

Thank you atomic! I have looked into the aspirin thing and decided against it since I bruise easily already. I have had a lot of cm lately but so far it's been watery/creamy. With that info in mind, I think I will just take an opk every day starting tomorrow and keep track like normal. I ordered more opks too so should be plenty. I really don't want to miss this egg!

Abc, that's crazy there weren't any obnoxious symptoms before you found out! I think my dh would literally pass out right by the US table! I am so excited for you though! I think twins would be lovely and I have heard they're such a joy bc they have each other to keep entertained and snuggle with. I hope you post numerous pics of them when they arrive!

[RaisingGentlemen3]

So I took an equate early result test and an opk this afternoon after a 4 hr hold. The preg test is positive but so faint I think most would consider it negative. You really have to look for it. The opk is neg too which I am so glad! I really want my o to wait 11 days or more as my dh started fr 2 days ago. He found a study that fr doesn't really lower sperm count much til at least 14 days. So I am hoping for more than 14 but hopefully at least 14. We also found a study that releasing 2x within 2 hrs (ish) doesn't lower it much either. It has to be 3 or 4 times with 2 hrs in between before sperm count is considerably lowered. That's 4x in 8 hrs! Yikes! So we decided on fr until I ovulate, however long that may be. So I am hoping for Halloween or later (giving 15+days of fr). Plus the costumes might be fun 😉

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Idk why but it won't upload the pic

[atomic sagebrush]

Well, all I can tell you is that based on my experience on the site for going on 9 years now, regardless of what a study says, FR longer than 7-10 days has not worked out for people and I think you're really going to regret going that route. People do not get pregnant even with just 7 days, and what's more, it's often very, very difficult for men to stick with. They start missing days or ending up unable to perform and considering we don't even see this working for people I really can't recommend doing that. We actually tried doing the compressed FR in the past and 90% couldn't stick with it or perform for the attempt. We don't even have ANY evidence that lower sperm count sways at all anyway, it's just a theory. So I'm worried you guys are really cutting your chances of conception for things that don't work anyway.

But do please keep me posted how it's goind for you and let me know how I can help! :)

[atomic sagebrush]

Atomic I should have also mentioned that I have some underlying autoimmune issues so maybe it’s possible that the anti inflammatory aspect of aspirin has helped me - who knows. I read an article months ago about a study where it seemed to help women with repeated miscarriages who had underlying inflammation. My Obgyn felt strongly about it because he said over his long career he’s seen women with repeated miscarriages use it with success even if he doesn’t understand fully why it helps. My fertility specialist doesn’t believe in it though. But again after 3 unexplained miscarriages I just no longer felt comfortable ignoring his advice. But - it’s clearly one of those very controversial things still that even doctors can’t agree on! :)


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Yes, thank you so much I didn't feel comfy sharing that info with the rest of the class.

That was in no way meant to be argumentative at all, I SO APPRECIATE your experiences and the time you take to help everyone. It's just that sometimes people hear one person say it worked for them and that outweighs the other stuff so I felt the need to go into all that...in no way meant to be a quibble at all and agan thank you so very much for your help and information. Really appreciate it!

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Yea I saw the stats aren't impressive for fr or abstain. I wonder if most don't get pregnant from 7+ day fr is the lowered count plus other swaying like sylk or acijel? It's always so hard to know what to do!

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Would you suggest the Cfr then? I just want to do what's best! I texted my dh and he said he can already tell he won't be able to perform and it's only day4. 😣 I tried figuring out what compressed fr is and it seems like hurry up fr? Please clarify, idk why it's so confusing!

[RaisingGentlemen3]

I found this in a Google search, is this still valid? 40584

[atomic sagebrush]

Yea I saw the stats aren't impressive for fr or abstain. I wonder if most don't get pregnant from 7+ day fr is the lowered count plus other swaying like sylk or acijel? It's always so hard to know what to do!

During the early days of the site we had people playing around doing lots of different things. Some people did JUST FR or abstain without the jellies (the jellies are pretty unpopular as they can skeeve some people out) so I feel we have a very good body of data indicating that both abstain and FR are really dramatically cutting odds of conception all on their own without any assistance from other things. :)

[atomic sagebrush]

Would you suggest the Cfr then? I just want to do what's best! I texted my dh and he said he can already tell he won't be able to perform and it's only day4. �� I tried figuring out what compressed fr is and it seems like hurry up fr? Please clarify, idk why it's so confusing!

Yep that's a huge reason why the FR has totally fallen out of favor. 80% of guys can't do it. And it becomes a huge bone of contention (er, so to speak LOL) which only adds stress and conflict to the entire thing.

If I had my way I'd have frequency vanish without a trace into an unmarked grave in a faraway land where it would never be discovered. So I would suggest everyone do regular release every 2-4 days with one attempt or let him "do what he does" with one attempt. But most people do still want to try it and since I'm not the font of all earthly knowledge (YET, mwahaha) I keep it in the mix for those who want it.

Hurry up FR is having him release once, dump it, then DTD again as quickly as he can using only the second batch for insemination. Within 1 hour is best, 3 is acceptible, 6 is the outer limit (but you should still try even if it gets beyond that, it will still count for one attempt)

Compressed FR is having him do 2-3 releases a day for 2-3 days before having the one attempt. The one attempt should be the second release of the day, preferably, but can be 12 or more hours later.

[atomic sagebrush]

Im not really following your question but yes I believe one attempt is substantially better than frequency. We had several years there where one attempt was 75%. It's not 75% now, it's fallen to be more in line with the overall success rate of the site (about 70% ish) but I believe that is in no small part due to the fact that now people have heard one attempt works and so do one attempt without diet and exercise. I regularly get people on here who want to try in a week and haven't done anythign and I just have them do one attempt. It can really skew the results, and since I believe our earlier results were much more clear and reliable, I keep those in the back of my mind and still trust in one attempt over everythign but diet, exercise, and Clomid.

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Thanks atomic! It seems neither fr or abstain are a great choice. My dh researched it and it seems abstain does lower sperm count but also quality, especially after 10 days. And fr only lowers sperm count significantly after 14 days but then motility dramatically increases as well. He did, however, find a study that had men abstain 3-4 days then release, wait 2 hrs and release again then repeat 2 more times. So 4x in 8 hrs. I attached the chart from the results of the study. But even 3x in 2hrs dramatically reduces sperm count but definitely the 4th time is lowest but ultimately I think dh can only do the 2x, maybe the 3x in 6hrs but doubt it. We will be trying this again I think even tho I don't bank on any of these things which is why I am still doing diet, one attempt, and rephresh every 3 days (really clumps up cm).

40602

[atomic sagebrush]

Hmm I feel like I answered this already.

The thing is, you can find studies that say all sorts of things. The idea that lower sperm numbers sways pink is a totally unproven theory anyway so we cannot get too wedded to the idea of lowering sperm numbers to sway pink becuase it very well may not even work that way.

What we KNOW based on our results is that regardess of anything a study says, in the lands of practical application people are not getting pregnant with abstain/FR/CFR and worse, many guys ran out of steam and could not a) complete the FR/CFR anyway (leading them to end up skipping releases and ending up in the dreaded every other day pattern which may be blue friendly) b)could not perform for the attempt (so they went to all the effort of doing all these releases only to be unable to do the attempt, in which case you'd miss the month!) c)people were not even conceiving that way anyway (so there were not enough sperm to get it done with one attempt even if a study says there "should" be) and d) it was so stressful that the husbands rebelled and wouldn't continue doing it, and in several instances actually revolted to such extent that they refused to TTC at all and finally e) all this ends up requiring so much micromanaging and controlfreakishness on our, the women's parts anyway, it probably undermines our sway way more than it would even help, if it did help, which it probably doesn't.

YOu guys put SO much time and energy and worry into the frequency. I wish you wouldn't. I don't think they help at all, lower chances of conception, and add huge amounts of stress that undermine sways. Please just pick something (even if you have to put options into a hat and draw one) and go with it because frequency does not seem to work at all.

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Ok thanks

[RaisingGentlemen3]

So, I took an opk at 2 today and it was blazing! Does that mean I didn't o today? Or just haven't yet..? I know people get pregnant with 2 day cut off all the time but it worried me bc I had no cm...Very little watery stuff and pH was a 4.5! I thought about it bc I always have a ton of cm and I have been on claritin for almost 2 weeks bc of allergies and to help me sleep from an itchy throat I took benadryl Wednesday night (which I guess was the cause of my really low bbt yesterday). I guess that all dried me up! I hadn't even thought of it. So a 2 day cut off kind of worries me. Is it possible to O today still? Or that I already have?

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Just to clarify, I had a +opk yesterday and we made our attempt. Here is yesterday's on top and today's on bottom 40630
40631

[atomic sagebrush]

The rate at which your OPK go negative don't tell you when you've ovulated. You can have a positive OPK and have already ovulated, or a negative one and still be yet to O. All the OPK tell us is about the surge, and then the surge is like a message our bodies send to ourselves saying "ok when you have a chance, now's a good time to ovulate"

Claritin and Benadryl can both dry up CM. You can still conceive, though.

I would stick with the attempt you've had for now, but you may want to start with e4d in case of delayed O. So in another couple days you'd have another attempt.

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Thank you atomic. So my temp went up but not great. It's only 97.47 which is more of a pre-o temp for me. Idk what's going on. Sucks too bc I work tonight and so my temps on Mondays are usually unreliable anyway. Maybe I didn't ever o? I have been have one-sided breast pain and I was looking up stuff in Dr Google lol and I saw women can have this around o and its linked to low progesterone. Which could explain the low temps and can even cause you not to ovulate as well. I guess I will just have to see what happens Tues and Wednesday this week but I want to know now! �� I had pain around my ovary, ewcm (not much tho), and positive opks. So it would appear I ovulated but my temps are confusing me. And last night I didn't have a cough drop in my mouth either so it should be higher I would assume. Here's my chart 40645

[atomic sagebrush]

Not looking ovulatory yet, but we'll need the next couple days to tell us if it's happened or not.

Lots of people have one sided breast pain. I have it regularly and I've never had a short LP or low prog in my life.

Low progesterone does not prevent ovulation. You are supposed to have low progesterone before ovuation. You are also supposed to have low temps before ovulation. So if you haven't ovulated yet, then it is normal for your progesterone and temps to be low.

What I want you to do now is just start having unprotected sex every 4 days. Keep temping if you want to see what happens. I don't think the symptom spotting is benefiting you in any way now because ovulation can be like a watched pot sometimes - the more you think about it happening, your body senses this kind of low level stress that can delay ovulation.

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Hey atomic, ff has me ovulating on Saturday so a 2 day cutoff. Not excited about that but it is what it is. We did diet, hurry up fr (and we dtd protected the night before attempt), no sylk, no cm at all and pH was 4.5 or less. Coffee, fiber, folate. I'm having lots of pelvic discomfort like ovary/uterine pain I imagine is fluid from ovulating irritating everything.

[RaisingGentlemen3]

40661 😊

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes looking ovulatory to me now, one more day of high temps will prove it!!!

Yep that and cramping of the tubes to move the egg down is what causes that post-o pain!! Good luck and pink dust headed your way!

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Thanks atomic! I always appreciate your way of relating information without making me feel dumb. My temp went to 98.02 this am so still looking good 😊

[atomic sagebrush]

Excellent!! Keep us posted!

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Today I am 6dpo and have an achy cervix/vagina...? What? 😶 Yea I said vagina. 😆 It's weird. It's starting to go away now but I had a dull ache down there for about an hr. I've never had that before except af and even then it's not common for me. Dry cm today and my temp spiked. I'm not sure it's accurate tho bc I had a very restless nights sleep and temped 30 mins later than normal (dh let me sleep). What do you think?

40677

[atomic sagebrush]

I never like to symptom spot - could be lots of things.

Yes the restless sleep makes your temp less reliable. FXFXFX!

[RaisingGentlemen3]

So I found that I had discarded the temp if the day i got a +opk. I don't remember why but if I don't discard it it completely changes my chart. And actually makes more sense with my symptoms. I got 2 days if positives so does that mean I hadn't o'ed yet on Friday? Before ff had me O'ing on Saturday but I am thinking I could've o'ed Thursday. I know I used to o the overnight after my first +. 40679

[atomic sagebrush]

We can't pin down ovulation to the day like that even with a classic chart and this one just has too much confusion going on to have a good feel for what day it was. But I do agree you ovulated and were in with well timed attempt.

[RaisingGentlemen3]

I took an frer today and got a vvf positive! I'm not sure I'm calling it a bfp yet but I will keep testing everyday and temping for a while too. Here's from this am
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40701

[atomic sagebrush]

I"m not sure I'm seeing it but that may be just down to my computer. FXFXFX!!

[RaisingGentlemen3]

I understand! I took another today with fmu and it's much brighter. Yesterday's was a 3 hr hold. Praying this one sticks!!40708

[RaisingGentlemen3]

And today
40710

[Kelbear]

Congratulations. Praying for a sticky bean and sending you lots of pink dust.

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Congratulations. Praying for a sticky bean and sending you lots of pink dust.

Thank you so much Kelbear! I will gladly take pink dust but for now, healthy baby is my main thought! I don't another mc

[atomic sagebrush]

Now those I can see! Huge congrats and pink dust!

[mommymachine]

Big congrats and prayers for a healthy pink baby!!!

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Big congrats and prayers for a healthy pink baby!!!

Thank you! Praying for a healthy baby

[RaisingGentlemen3]

Now those I can see! Huge congrats and pink dust!

Thanks. I will take all the pink dust I can get!