Slow responders...a crazy theory?

[grasshopper]

OK...I have just hatched up one of my crazy theories in my head and I can't shake it so might as well put it out there.

For those of you who are slow responders like myself do you respond to other drugs slowly as well...for example Panadol or other pain medications?

My DH and I were both really sick one day with the flu and both took a Panadeine Forte at the same time...my DH was floating on air less than 10 mins later and mine took between half an hour and 40 mins to kick in and even then didn't completely make the pain go...meanwhile my DH was on cloud nine and actually enjoying the pain relief. At the time my DH was not a small man and I was not very big so you would think it would be the other way around. I had always known that things took a long while to kick in for me but this just proved it.

So just wondering if it is the same for other ladies who are slow responders...do our bodies just respond to all drugs slowly?

[nuthinbutpink]

I really don't know. Are you going to try anything like DHEA?

[grasshopper]

Dhea doesn't seem to be easy to get hold of here in Oz...I think I remember reading once that you are supposed to take the supplements with a certain amount of milligrams and when I looked into it at the time we couldn't get that amount here in Oz without it being imported in via your doctor with an import permit as it is classed as an anabolic steroid or precursor. You can buy the Homeopathic stuff easy enough but I think it only has about 3mg in it so a whole lot of money for very little benefit with that small amount.
I was interested in taking it when I found out my FSH was through the roof but it all just seemed to hard (we don't live in the city and our local doctors don't know what we are doing). So I think I will start taking CoQ10 about 3 months before my next cycle to help with egg quality and my own cellular function.

But yeah interesting point...DHEA is supposed to help with lowering FSH...maybe the high FSH is linked to the slow response...although I think there are a few slow responders out there who's FSH is fine. Ugh...the whole thing makes my head spin.

[Saga]

All my pretesting were fine, FSH was 5,8 and AMH 1,7, and I was a slow responder. I tryed three diferent protocolls and none made a differens. I was 37 so mabye it was my age. I think I respond normal to drogs in general, I usually get all the side effects.. I never took DHEA, it is not allowed in Sweden, but took Q10 and Royal Bee pollen.

[nuthinbutpink]

Dhea doesn't seem to be easy to get hold of here in Oz...I think I remember reading once that you are supposed to take the supplements with a certain amount of milligrams and when I looked into it at the time we couldn't get that amount here in Oz without it being imported in via your doctor with an import permit as it is classed as an anabolic steroid or precursor. You can buy the Homeopathic stuff easy enough but I think it only has about 3mg in it so a whole lot of money for very little benefit with that small amount.
I was interested in taking it when I found out my FSH was through the roof but it all just seemed to hard (we don't live in the city and our local doctors don't know what we are doing). So I think I will start taking CoQ10 about 3 months before my next cycle to help with egg quality and my own cellular function.

But yeah interesting point...DHEA is supposed to help with lowering FSH...maybe the high FSH is linked to the slow response...although I think there are a few slow responders out there who's FSH is fine. Ugh...the whole thing makes my head spin.

Well, you know my day 10 FSH was 14 so mine was not good at all. FSH was explained to me like a gas pedal. The more your body is pushing on the gas(FSH) the closer it is to the floor(higher FSH over 10) the poorer your response will be. So, if you have a FSH of 10+, your body is already stomping on the gas and there is only so much left in the tank to go faster.

FSH and age do matter...when you are young and have a bad FSH you have a much better chance then someone older 35+ and a bad FSH. I was 34 at the time so right on the bubble. I think the combo of FSH and LH helped instead of just pure FSH for me as a poor responder and I think DHEA helped- and I have said this before- but not because I got my son at the end but because of the testing between the beginning of my journey (FSH of 10 on day 3, 14 on day 10, AMH of .75) and the month I cycled again(FSH of 6, AMH of over 2) and my AFC went from 7 to 12. So, it seemed to help my numbers and that had nothing at all to do with protocol. That is the "profile" of someone DHEA helps though- your numbers do get better.

I don't know what kind of protocol you have been on but perhaps a combo and no BCP to suppress you- minimal suppress beforehand- is what my RE thought was best for a poor responder. HTH

[bluex2]

NBP- About the "numbers getting better" thing. I have been very interested to get retested to see what happens to my numbers on the DHEA. I especially am interested in having another antral count done (b/c my FSH/ E2 was not really that high or predictive of my poor response for some reason). However, when I listened to Dr. P's teleconference the other night he said something like "woman often ask me if I can lower their FSH. I explain to them that there are a lot of ways to lower the FSH number, such as taking estrogen, but none of these make your fertility better"

What do you think of this?

By the way, I've been curious to find out if you listened to his speech because I would say he was pretty pro DHEA in it. At one point he said he thought the effect DHEA had was very similar to estrogen priming and he even suggested it to a few woman who asked questions after his speech.

[nuthinbutpink]

NBP- About the "numbers getting better" thing. I have been very interested to get retested to see what happens to my numbers on the DHEA. I especially am interested in having another antral count done (b/c my FSH/ E2 was not really that high or predictive of my poor response for some reason). However, when I listened to Dr. P's teleconference the other night he said something like "woman often ask me if I can lower their FSH. I explain to them that there are a lot of ways to lower the FSH number, such as taking estrogen, but none of these make your fertility better"

What do you think of this?


By the way, I've been curious to find out if you listened to his speech because I would say he was pretty pro DHEA in it. At one point he said he thought the effect DHEA had was very similar to estrogen priming and he even suggested it to a few woman who asked questions after his speech.

I know what he is saying about you can't make your fertility better but I respectfully disagree! Maybe it is just my way of looking at my situation but if all my numbers got better, AFC went up AND I had a good response to meds AND made IVF work for me when it should not have going off my first and worst initial pretesting, I am not sure how else to explain my outcome other than of course, luck. I would argue that that is exactly what DHEA did for me is make my fertility better...don't know how else to explain my night and day response. He is talking about as you age, FSH goes up, the body is doing what it is going to do naturally, etc but why do we bother taking any supplement then in life? Not just for infertility but for anything health related? If all these supplements don't do anything/can't do/change anything then why bother?

I did not see his post in time to listen in. I wish I had. Any details you can remember from it, I would be interested in hearing...wonder if you can listen to a replay?

[nuthinbutpink]

Also, blue, did you have your AMH level tested at all?

[bluex2]

No, I never had my AMH tested.. My clinic is a little backwards. They didn't even want to do an antral count - I pushed them into it. OH that reminds me of another interesting thing Dr. P said...

As I remember it, the bulk of his speech was about the different types of pretesting and diagnostic tools that RE's use to determine/assess ovarian reserve and to diagnose DOR. It seemed like his clear favorite of all the tests (the one he believed to be most accurate) is the Clomid challenge test. I was particularly interested in his opinions about antral counts- because that was where I got my waaay bad results. He said that the problem with antral counts is that they are very observer dependent. That different sonographers counted different antral numbers in the same woman on the same day. And that you need a very experienced sonographer with good equipment to get an accurate result.

This gave me a little hope that maybe things aren't as bad as I think they are because the sonographer I strong-armed into counting my antrals was not experienced (they don't even count them where she works) and she was annoyed with me and so she took only like literally 2 seconds to count them.

[nuthinbutpink]

Yes, I think antrals are definitely tech-dependent on who sees what so don't worry too much about that and just like all the other numbers, they can vary too so there is definitely hope!!

[desperatefordresses]

Totally.

I respond to all drugs really well- aspirin, vicotin, etc. I responded really well to stims, as I thought I would.

[desperatefordresses]

OK, I should have said OVER responded to stims.

[koko]

i think some respond slower to drugs in general my husband does!