LE and twins

[dreamofdaughter]

Atomic, I remember i read somewhere you said you noticed more twins with girl swayers. Why is that do you think? I saw my new dr today (never met her before, my old maternity dr retired) and when I told her about the early nausea (14dpo it started) and that I always feel sick even if I eat, she said she suspected twins. So now I finally get an early scan (yay). I think she is wrong though. I’m barely tired. Surely it were 2 I would be so fatigued especially because my iron started out low. But it did make me think why would swaying girl increase your twins risk? Wouldn’t being depleted mean your body would be less likely to want to house 2? I’m pretty small, I barely get to 38 weeks with singletons so I would be utterly shocked if my body didn’t cull one of them even if two implanted. Curious about your thoughts on why LE could increase twins. I truly think the crazy nausea is because I’ve changed my body chemistry from swaying. With my CP I had nausea right away too.

[atomic sagebrush]

You can't tell if you're having twins based on symptoms. Sometimes people carrying twins are sicker earlier and it's fine to get it checked out of course but this is one of those things that until you see two sacs on the screen, it's best not to worry about it.

I don't think LE Diet is causing twins. I think that many of us with all/mostly boys are coming into swaying more set for twins (and in fact a fair few of our pink swayers have already HAD twins without being on LE Diet.)

Things that up the chances of twins: being older, having lots of kids already, being taller and heavier, getting pregnant while nursing (which quite a few of us do either as a sway tactic or just because), getting pregnant coming off hormonal birth control (which again, quite a few of us do as a sway tactic or just cause) and NOT being a vegan are all things that are associated with more twins, and most of these are things that many of the pink swayers on this site do/are just as matter of course, without even intending to use them as sway tactics.

REmember, LE Diet is NOT an unhealthy diet. It's simply the low normal of a healthy pre-pregnancy diet for women of childbearing age. So while we toss around words like "depleted", no one doing the diet properly (and adding in the zinc, iron, Vit. D, B12 over time as needed if on diet very long period of time) should be depleted and should be able to carry twin pregnancies just fine.

[dreamofdaughter]

You can't tell if you're having twins based on symptoms. Sometimes people carrying twins are sicker earlier and it's fine to get it checked out of course but this is one of those things that until you see two sacs on the screen, it's best not to worry about it.

I don't think LE Diet is causing twins. I think that many of us with all/mostly boys are coming into swaying more set for twins (and in fact a fair few of our pink swayers have already HAD twins without being on LE Diet.)

Things that up the chances of twins: being older, having lots of kids already, being taller and heavier, getting pregnant while nursing (which quite a few of us do either as a sway tactic or just because), getting pregnant coming off hormonal birth control (which again, quite a few of us do as a sway tactic or just cause) and NOT being a vegan are all things that are associated with more twins, and most of these are things that many of the pink swayers on this site do/are just as matter of course, without even intending to use them as sway tactics.

REmember, LE Diet is NOT an unhealthy diet. It's simply the low normal of a healthy pre-pregnancy diet for women of childbearing age. So while we toss around words like "depleted", no one doing the diet properly (and adding in the zinc, iron, Vit. D, B12 over time as needed if on diet very long period of time) should be depleted and should be able to carry twin pregnancies just fine.

Interesting, I hope me being short and small boned plays into 1 baby. I would really be more upset over twins than another boy. Like I said, I only just make it to 38 weeks. I don’t think twins for me would gestate for very long.

I must have been doing LE wrong then because I always felt depleted! Maybe that’s why it was so many BFN for me. Yeah, I was surprised the dr was so concerned with early nausea I’ve read online it does happen to some small percentage of women. 8 weeks is definitely getting worse in terms of the severity. I can’t wait for it to pass!

[ABC.2606]

My sickness with my twins didn’t start any earlier than it did with my singletons nor was it any worse overall. Actually it wasn’t ever as bad as it was with my DS1 and it started later than with DS2 (it started at 4.5/5 weeks with him). And my HCG levels with my twins were high - over 7,800 by 21 dpo!

I was a pink swayer but I took Clomid and I’m confident that’s the reason I got twins. Other things that I’ve thought may have contributed were that I’m 35, I had 3 miscarriages in a row before conceiving the twins, and because of the miscarriages I was taking 2000+ mcg of folate a day. But I think the main factor was the Clomid.

Congrats on your pregnancy!


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[dreamofdaughter]

They did a scan today and they could only see a yolk sac and no embryo. Please can someone help me here - I am beside myself.

She said maybe my dates are wrong.

We dtd day 8 of cycle
Opk+ day 9
Strong+ Morning of day 10

That should make me around 8 weeks up to 8+2 if I ovulated anywhere from day 10-12.
She said based on ovulation day 14 I would be 7+5.

She said go get blood tests to confirm hcg rise. My hcg days I took test were 200 and then just shy of 600. That’s almost tripling!

How can there be no embryo now?

Sperm cannot survive that long. We only did it once day 8!

I have sore huge breasts I have such nausea. I have tons of the pregnancy discharge (can’t remember name).

Please can someone help? How is there no visible embryo on abdominal ultrasound even if I was 7+5 as she said based off LMP?? Shouldn’t there be something visible by 7+5. It’s not possible I ovulated later than day 14 that would mean the sperm lasted more than 6 days.

[atomic sagebrush]

Did you have any unprotected sex after that?? Even like 1-2 weeks after?

[dreamofdaughter]

Possibly two weeks after but it would have been just a few days shy of my positive pregnancy test. So it wouldn’t have been enough time to get levels up to 200 (first hcg was day of bfp).

This doesn’t look promising does it?

[dreamofdaughter]

Well, I talked with DH. And we figure it’s either a mmc or somehow I ovulated later and we dtd some time I can’t quite recall. We always have unprotected sex but as I said we were not urgently TTC cause of my cycle being weird and me trying to fix it. I wasn’t tracking post ovulation sex much. Anyway, if it is a BO, me worrying won’t help and if it’s a viable pregnancy it worry isn’t good for the baby. So I’m getting bloodwork tomorrow morning and Monday morning. Clinics are closed sundays so I was told to do Saturday and Monday. Going to try to keep myself very busy over the next few days!

[atomic sagebrush]

Possibly two weeks after but it would have been just a few days shy of my positive pregnancy test. So it wouldn’t have been enough time to get levels up to 200 (first hcg was day of bfp).

This doesn’t look promising does it?

No, but it's not over till it's over. Strange things happen (I know I've forgotten BD sometimes and then a week later something reminds me and I was like "oh yeah that happened") and the techs make mistakes so there may have been something there they didn't see.

I think you have a great attitude - worrying isn't going to fix anything and there will be time enough to worry at such a point where we know something is wrong. I hope with all my heart that we hear good news soon.

[ABC.2606]

Ugh I’m sorry you are going through this. My 3rd miscarriage was a mmc and waiting a week for confirmation of that was awful. I hope you get good news - that maybe you conceived from that later unprotected BD and not the earlier one. Fingers crossed for you!


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[dreamofdaughter]

Thank you ABC for your well wishes!

Atomic, my first hcg is almost 35300, lab range
6 weeks 158-31795
7 weeks 3697- 163563
8 and 9 weeks 32065-151410

What does this mean? I should see the embryo right? The yolk sac is continuing but no embryo?

Repeat hcg in 48 hrs.

[barrebabe]

Did you get a transvaginal ultrasound or just abdominal?

[dreamofdaughter]

Did you get a transvaginal ultrasound or just abdominal?

Just abdominal...wish I had insisted on a TV u/s but we were so stunned and confused and she was really trying to get us to leave. She didn’t even look for very long! She just said see your dr and book another u/s in a couple weeks.

[mommymachine]

Hope it all works out for you! Prayers!


Mama to 6 Blessings. Praying to TTC in April/May 2020 for number 7...and hoping number 8 as well! God Bless!

[dreamofdaughter]

I just started spotting very minimally. I assume natural m/c should start soon. I’m actually glad my body has finally figured it out. I was worried I’d need a medical/surgical removal.

[atomic sagebrush]

Just abdominal...wish I had insisted on a TV u/s but we were so stunned and confused and she was really trying to get us to leave. She didn’t even look for very long! She just said see your dr and book another u/s in a couple weeks.

I understand you're spotting but I do want to reiterate what was said in this thread - if it wasn't transvaginal then it's not reliable at this stage of gestation. I'm still hopeful for you. :heart:

[atomic sagebrush]

Thank you ABC for your well wishes!

Atomic, my first hcg is almost 35300, lab range
6 weeks 158-31795
7 weeks 3697- 163563
8 and 9 weeks 32065-151410

What does this mean? I should see the embryo right? The yolk sac is continuing but no embryo?

Repeat hcg in 48 hrs.

It's just something that happens sometimes, your body still "thinks" it's pregnant when it isn't. But the thing is that with an abdominal ultrasound, it's not reliable at this stage (and honestly, they should have explained that) and for right now it is just as likely they weren't able to see something that was actually there, as that there is nothing there to see. :heart:

[dreamofdaughter]

Thank you atomic and everyone else for the support. I have that cramps period feeling but I’m trying to hold out hope as the spotting stopped.

One thing that came out over the weekend was DH had not been doing his own thing so it turned out our attempt was an 11 day abstain (he’s 35). I am disappointed to know this as now I will wonder if I do miscarry, was that the reason? That being said, my CP we did FR before our one attempt and I know he released the night before because I aided him along so who knows I guess.

[atomic sagebrush]

The reason I have you guys not do abstain over 35 (and a lot of guys still do at 35, it's just that the risks rise with age and 35 is the age they start to ~slightly~ surpass the population on average) is not because it's always or usually going to cause issues. It's still very, very rare, most babies are perfectly fine, etc. I have you guys avoid that because it doesn't work for swaying, cuts odds of conception hugely, AND there are these teensy increases in risk. Most babies with abstain + 35 are perfectly fine, but I figure, for something that doesn't even work for swaying, and cuts odds of conception so hugely, why would we take on even a very remote risk? So I have people skip it but that doesn't mean that abstain in a 35 year old will cause a miscarriage, not at all.

[dreamofdaughter]

My levels only went up 200 in 48hrs. I think it’s a MMC.

[Lexzeppelin89]

My levels only went up 200 in 48hrs. I think it’s a MMC.I'm sorry to hear that :( <3

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[barrebabe]

My levels only went up 200 in 48hrs. I think it’s a MMC.

I’m so sorry. I just lost a baby at 6 weeks in know the pain.

Please know you did NOT cause this - by your husband abstaining or anything else.

Hugs and prayers to you.

[dreamofdaughter]

I’m so sorry. I just lost a baby at 6 weeks in know the pain.

Please know you did NOT cause this - by your husband abstaining or anything else.

Hugs and prayers to you.

Thank you both.

barrebabe I’m so sorry for your loss. :( sending hugs and prayers back to you!

[wildlyluna]

My levels only went up 200 in 48hrs. I think it’s a MMC.

[emoji24][emoji24] I’m so sorry to hear that xx


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[atomic sagebrush]

Oh no I'm so so very sorry to hear that, Dream. Please let me know how I can help. :heart:

[dreamofdaughter]

Thank you Hopeful. You’ve been such a great support since I joined the site. ❤️

Thank you atomic. What can I do to kickstart the miscarry? The spotting was just that one time in toilet paper on Monday morning. Then it stopped completely. No sign of it starting up, sadly. I desperately don’t want to use the pills since it means I can’t try again right away I have to wait for first period. And I definitely don’t want a d&c.

[Nell_]

Am so sorry , i have had a mc too and know upsetting it is sending a big hug 💞

[dreamofdaughter]

Atomic, the clinic my dr is sending me to won’t see me until next week to confirm loss via u/s they said even with bad hcg they can’t confirm it and they want to give it time to catch up. It was measuring 6w, 2d. I feel like this is false hope.

[atomic sagebrush]

Thank you Hopeful. You’ve been such a great support since I joined the site. ❤️

Thank you atomic. What can I do to kickstart the miscarry? The spotting was just that one time in toilet paper on Monday morning. Then it stopped completely. No sign of it starting up, sadly. I desperately don’t want to use the pills since it means I can’t try again right away I have to wait for first period. And I definitely don’t want a d&c.

What I would do is, and I"m sure this is the last thing on your mind right now, is an orgasm. Don't have sex (it might end up with infection) but an O for you will often get things moving.

[atomic sagebrush]

Atomic, the clinic my dr is sending me to won’t see me until next week to confirm loss via u/s they said even with bad hcg they can’t confirm it and they want to give it time to catch up. It was measuring 6w, 2d. I feel like this is false hope.

I know it sounds like false hope but quite a few people have seemed to have bad news, only to have it turn around. I honestly prefer them doing it this way than what they did only a few years ago, which was rush people to have interventions done and end up ending healthy pregnancies. They can make mistakes, and while the more data points we have, the less likely that is (so with both the ultrasound and the HCG, those are not good signs) they're actually trying to do right by you and not inadvertently end a pregnancy that actually is developing on its own timeline.

another thing we can try is a spicy meal. Don't get carried away with this, just something that's hot and/or garlicky can sometimes help get the blood moving and in a normal pregnancy, would not cause harm. :heart:

[dreamofdaughter]

Thanks atomic. I am so grateful for your help, good advice and support! ❤️

I will wait until Monday before trying to get things moving.

Couple more questions:
1) For orgasm, should I just do it alone then? No intercouse means no digits and no oral right?
2) Once I start bleeding when is it ok to have sex again?
3) is it ok for me to try for first ovulation after m/c? I’m a bit worried because I tend to ovulate early in a regular cycle which might be difficult if I’m not allowed to have sex for infection risk?
4) Should I go back on the diet now? I’m going to start cardio tonight since I don’t know how long it will take for it to start. I have still be delaying breakfast but I have only slightly reduced calories and am not tracking yet. I did a long walk a few times a week while pregnant but it wasn’t intense cardio.

[atomic sagebrush]

1)Well, do what you need to do but yes I'd avoid penetration of anything and also skip oral.

2)Recommendations vary, some say after the bleeding stops, some say 2 weeks. The issue is that your cervix will be a little open for a while till it heals and infection is more likely so use your best judgement.

3)I want you to consult with your doc about that. You're fairly far along and while always have people try with a chemical, we're out of that zone here and it's going to come down to a lot of other factors (such as, if you have to have a D and C)

What I can tell you is that it's very, very unlikely you will ovulate on time if this does in fact end up being a loss. It's not going to be like a period and then an ovulation, things are almost certainly going to be different.

4)I would prefer you wait till you know for sure but it's up to you. You could just go vegetarian without the calorie restrictions. I would jsut have you continuing to walk for now.

[dreamofdaughter]

Thank you atomic. I finally started spotting a tiny bit of brown blood today and my back is sore. I’m keeping my fingers crossed it starts soon so I can get this over with and move on.

[atomic sagebrush]

I hope everything is going ok, Dream.

[dreamofdaughter]

I hope everything is going ok, Dream.

Thank you atomic.

So it is a MMC. Just had the TV u/s to confirm. I feel better knowing. I was so proud of myself not crying - until the end, then after all my questions, I cried. :(

I ovulated from my left. I almost started to cry when she told me. Now I will wonder, was this my baby girl?

I am leaning toward taking the pills because she told me it's a 90% success rate of miscarriage with no retrained products if I go that route vs 75% success rate with no retained products if I do expectant management. With the pills, she said it will be about a 4-6 hr process whereas if I do expectant management I could bleed on/off for up to 10 days or it could be a rapid loss, but they have no way of knowing how my body will decide to miscarry. And they said it could be up to another 3 weeks before my body lets the pregnancy go. But it's perfectly safe to just wait. I just don't think I want to keep waiting.

She said we can try again right away after 2 weeks, no need to wait for first period. She said it's unlikely I will ovulate after 2 weeks anyway (and you said the same thing AS). She wasn't at all negative about us trying again even with my age so I really appreciated that.

[atomic sagebrush]

Personally I'm in the "get it over as soon as possible" camp but it's totally what you feel the most comfortable with.

I'm so glad she's on board with trying sooner. Please let me know how I can help, and I hope this is a very easy process. :heart: Again, so sorry for your loss.

[dreamofdaughter]

Thanks, atomic. I decided to just get it over with. Going to take a day off work to do it this week while the kids are not at home. Thanks for all the support.

[atomic sagebrush]

Let us know if you need anything. :heart:

[dreamofdaughter]

Let us know if you need anything. :heart:

Thank you atomic. I was reading your essay swaying after m/c and I am wondering if you can still access this study you referenced about conceiving after swaying leads to more female conceptions? https://www.genderdreaming.com/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fm.humupd.oxfordjournals.org %2Fcontent%2F17%2F4%2F558.long

When I click the link I don’t see the article?

In your post, you originally talked about how perhaps swaying pink was causing more m/c. I know you had various updates that m/c rates improved once things like aspirin, herbs. antihistamines etc were dropped.
I don’t think it’s the swaying though per se. When I was looking for that article, I saw an article that miscarriages tend to be more female fetuses. So maybe if a person was swaying pink and conceived a girl (because of a higher chance of pink) they may miscarry because female embryos have a higher chance of miscarriage not because of swaying itself. So it might seem like it is the swaying but really it’s just because statistically female embryos miscarry more often?? What do you think?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3150206/

[atomic sagebrush]

Unfortunately in the world of scientific studies they delete them and rename them constantly so even though I try to keep them up to date many times they vanish and I can't ever find them again. I have it printed off somewhere and I have read it several times, though.

I've read the study that claims more girls are lost. They can't prove that because a) there are significantly more studies showing more boys are lost than girls and b) no one can tell how many males are lost earlier on before it's possible to test. I suspect strongly that a preponderance of males are lost via chemical and very early loss and it's simply that the female babies can hang on a little longer before being lost (since most are chromosomal abnormalities or thyroid related)

Setting all that aside, the fact is that we've dramatically and significantly lowered the number of miscarriages by dropping things like aspirin and herbs (not to mention aspirin itself has been shown in other studies to be causing miscarriage when taken by those who don't need it for clotting disorders). Plus, neither aspirin nor the herbs has even swayed for us with the same number of people getting girls with and without them (so neither would be leading to preferential girl conceptions). So yeah I do still think losses are possibly caused or contributed to by herbs and aspirin and since they aren't working anyway I just prefer to have people skip them.

I really appreciate your input and the thought you put into this. :heart: hope everything is going ok.

[dreamofdaughter]

Unfortunately in the world of scientific studies they delete them and rename them constantly so even though I try to keep them up to date many times they vanish and I can't ever find them again. I have it printed off somewhere and I have read it several times, though.

I've read the study that claims more girls are lost. They can't prove that because a) there are significantly more studies showing more boys are lost than girls and b) no one can tell how many males are lost earlier on before it's possible to test. I suspect strongly that a preponderance of males are lost via chemical and very early loss and it's simply that the female babies can hang on a little longer before being lost (since most are chromosomal abnormalities or thyroid related)

Setting all that aside, the fact is that we've dramatically and significantly lowered the number of miscarriages by dropping things like aspirin and herbs (not to mention aspirin itself has been shown in other studies to be causing miscarriage when taken by those who don't need it for clotting disorders). Plus, neither aspirin nor the herbs has even swayed for us with the same number of people getting girls with and without them (so neither would be leading to preferential girl conceptions). So yeah I do still think losses are possibly caused or contributed to by herbs and aspirin and since they aren't working anyway I just prefer to have people skip them.

I really appreciate your input and the thought you put into this. :heart: hope everything is going ok.

Oh right! They can’t account for CP.
Such good insight, thanks so mich.
I wish you could run these studies! Lol

[atomic sagebrush]

Me too. I'd crack this nut in no time. :)

[dreamofdaughter]

Even though I’m pro choice, emotionally I can’t deal at all with the fact that those pills to induce the missed miscarriage to start are called abortion pills. I was looking up how long I will bleed/spot after and the responses all are in reply to an “abortion”. It makes me want to scream. It wasn’t an abortion! I wanted this child. ��

Anyway going to call the Dr to ask I just called deal with seeing that word in relation to my pregnancy.

[atomic sagebrush]

I know it really gets to a lot of people regardless of their position on the topic. It's long past time they came up with a different word because there is just too much baggage.

And then they can also stop calling older moms geriatric while they're at it, LOL.

Huge hugs - thinking of you.