LE Standard or PCOS?

[onelittlewish]

Hello!

Newbie here...been reading alot over the past months and hesitant to post because I was worried that I'll become super obsessed but I guess I need some reassurance here to know if I am on the right track...any advice is highly appreciated :)

I started easing into the diet early June by counting the calories and reducing meat (6 weeks, lost 1kg) and went full LE standard diet on July 11th (skipping breakfast, no meat, mainly empty carbs and 1500cal with the protain/fat limit). I lost 1kg over the 4 weeks on the standard diet but i often feel light headed esp after a huge meal. Then i came across the PCOS diet and I find the diet much easier to follow. Keeps me fuller, abit hungry when it is close to meal time but never starving. I am really happy on the diet and I could stay on it forever I feel. I am quite small (bmi 19.5 at the start of the diet) so I was worried that my weight would fly off with PCOS diet but it held steady. So I am second guessing myself if I am doing the diet "correctly" and is there anyone who SHOULD be on the standard diet and does not get better result with PCOS diet? My bmi now is 18.7 after loosing some weight on the standard diet.

At the moment my diet looks like this (i tweaked along the way to find the combo that i love the most and i eat the same things everyday so i dont need to worry about the limit)

Total calories 1500 with about 55-60g of protein and fat, carb at around 170 per myfitnesspal. I only calculate the calories for corn and not other veg, and i cut out meat completely.

Skipping breakfast with black coffee + 1T heavy cream

Lunch @11 :
- Main dish: 1c brown rice stir fried with 2 eggwhites & slice of cheese + stir fry bellpepper, tofu, mushroom & 1/2 corn on the cob + some leafy greens
- 1 apple
- 1 full fat greek yoghurt with some dragon fruit and frozen cranberries
- coffee + 1 cup of sweetened almond milk

afternoon i have another cup of coffee with 1T cream to get me through dinner

Dinner @ 5:30 with kids and i'll finish eating by 8pm :
- same main dish
- 1 apple
- graham crackers with 1T peanut butter
- a shot of whisky

The only supplement i have is folic acid + fiber
I do 1hr cardio 6x a week

I plan to start ttc end of Sept after i am on the diet for 12 weeks (4w standard + 8w PCOS) starting with 1 attempt (i conceived both of my boys with 2 consecutive attempts around O)

I have 2 boys and this is definitely our last...I hope I am doing everything I can to get our little girl and knowing that I cannot control over it, I have no whatever the outcome is!

[atomic sagebrush]

Anyone who CAN do the alternate diet, SHOULD do the alternate diet. It's healthier, better for egg quality, and it gets better results. The only people who need to do the other diet are those who just can't stick with the alternate one for whatever reason, or lose massive amounts of weight on the alt. diet.

Question - are you counting the protein and fat in fruit and veg?

[onelittlewish]

Hi atomic, thank you sooo much for your reply...and so promptly!

Is the alternative diet same as PCOS one? I find the PCOS easier to understand and follow.

The only veg/fruit that I included are 1 corn and 2 apples (approx 1.5 of fat and 5g of protein), so my fat and protein will be about 50-55g, lower side of the limit. Should I up it? I am also cutting out added sugar because i was a sugar addict. I don't love empty carbs like candies but i love high fat sugary food like cake and chocolate. So I guess i'd do something different and it will benefit my health over all. The only worried I had was my weight but it didn't fly off as expected and I couldn't figure out why. I started with 1500cal because I am exercising as well and I didnt want to mess up my cycles. Do I need to lower my cal intake further because i have a small frame to start with? Also would 4 weeks LE traditional + 8 weeks PCOS diet be enough to get good result or should I be on PCOS diet for longer? I know it will probably take longer to conceive on a sway but I also ready many successes on the first cycle...just want to be ready!

DH is also going on a weight loss journey because his blood pressure is abit high. We plan to cut down his meat and portion size and he will start exercising again (low intense cardio). Would this have positive or negative impact on the sway? He gained alot of weight after COVID since gyms are closed and I read somewhere that gaining weight for DH is better to sway pink?

I am planning to use CLOMID for swaying purpose only, 50mg day 3-7 but i am kind of nervous, reading people getting ovarian cysts after the meds (not sure if its related but so many people reporting that!). Is there anyone who should not be on clomid? I am 33 and had no issue ovulating on my own.

Sorry for bombing with so many questions! I thought I have a big picture and plan already but there are so many questions popping up every now and then.

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes, it's the PCOS one. We have so many people on it now who do not have PCOS I've started calling it the alternate LE Diet so people are open to being on it for other reasons.

Yes, you should up protein and fat a bit, it will really help. Anywhere from 50-60 g is good, and for the sake of feeling satiated that extra 5 g protein and fat really make a difference. Plus because you're eating the corn and apple, which we would not count, you need to compensate for those.

You do not need to lose weight because you're already below our BMI cutoff for holding steady. Just continue on at what you're eating. :agree: cutting out sugar is a part of the alternate diet but since you're on it more preemptively and not because you have PCOS/IR, you can probably get away with some sugar now and then.

We do have a lot of "chubby hubbies" making girls, but as long as he drops a good amount of weight (more than 10 lbs) we also see good results with that because it can lower testosterone. Ideally I'd probably have him stay overweight for now, but if he's willing, for the sake of his health especially with COVID going around encourage him to adopt that healthy lifestyle if he's willing.

Some people who are on Clomid are prone to ovarian cysts, that's why it's prescribed for them. And/or they're on higher doses. We have had very very few ovarian cysts on the Clomid over 10 years' time this site has been here. I don't allow people to use Clomid if they have history of recurrent ovarian cysts without a doctor's involvement but otherwise it really hasn't been a "thing" for us.

[onelittlewish]

Yes, it's the PCOS one. We have so many people on it now who do not have PCOS I've started calling it the alternate LE Diet so people are open to being on it for other reasons.

Yes, you should up protein and fat a bit, it will really help. Anywhere from 50-60 g is good, and for the sake of feeling satiated that extra 5 g protein and fat really make a difference. Plus because you're eating the corn and apple, which we would not count, you need to compensate for those.

You do not need to lose weight because you're already below our BMI cutoff for holding steady. Just continue on at what you're eating. :agree: cutting out sugar is a part of the alternate diet but since you're on it more preemptively and not because you have PCOS/IR, you can probably get away with some sugar now and then.

We do have a lot of "chubby hubbies" making girls, but as long as he drops a good amount of weight (more than 10 lbs) we also see good results with that because it can lower testosterone. Ideally I'd probably have him stay overweight for now, but if he's willing, for the sake of his health especially with COVID going around encourage him to adopt that healthy lifestyle if he's willing.

Some people who are on Clomid are prone to ovarian cysts, that's why it's prescribed for them. And/or they're on higher doses. We have had very very few ovarian cysts on the Clomid over 10 years' time this site has been here. I don't allow people to use Clomid if they have history of recurrent ovarian cysts without a doctor's involvement but otherwise it really hasn't been a "thing" for us.

Thank you Atomic, your words really eased up my mind. I have added another portion of greek yoghurt and another T of whipping cream so my protein and fat now sits at 60&60. If you have time, can you help me to under stand why the alternative diet gets better result then the sugar crash one? I thought the theory is based on low fat & low protein and the protein & fat in the alternative diet has almost doubled from the traditional one. Or is it that it is still considered "low" as compared to our normal diet when not swaying?

I just cut off sugary things because I can be very addicted to them. I thought I could not live without sweet things but to my surprise when I stayed away from them completely I do not crave sweet things at all. The only sugary thing I have is a cup of sweetened almond milk at the end of the day. Speaking of which, can you help me to take a look if it is fortified? There is no Vit D but there is Calcium carbonate and Vit E added. I have attached the nutrition facts, thank you so much!43395

I gave DH fiber supplements but on top of that he is also taking Vit C and Vit D as preventive measures against COVID. I hope that won't throw off the work I am doing here.

I never had any cyst in my life but I have an appointment with my OB to check on my fertility. If nothing is wrong I will give Clomid a try on the first attempt. When you say start with one attempt, do you mean regular release with 1 attempt at pos OPK? or abstain until pos OPK? Is there a difference in results?

[atomic sagebrush]

We don't KNOW why the alt. diet seems to be working better. It may be that the nutrients are reduced enough to sway pink - it's really not much more protein and fat than the standard diet...it is NOT doubled as you claim because you can go up to 60 g fat even on the standard diet!...and the same amount of calories - and then it's better for blood sugar and testosterone levels. Or it may be that people can eat a lot more nutrients easily on the standard diet (something about that sugar/white flour, people can suck down a lot more food quick as opposed to whole grains and veg) After all, even junk food has nutrients in it. Or maybe it's some other thing entirely, or a combination of several things. We just don't know.

I would not mention that you want to take Clomid on your own to the doctor, they frown on stuff like that. But it's great to go get checked out before any pregnancy anyway!

How old are you and your husband? That will change the advice I give.



A cup of that is fine every day for you. That's not the sort of fortification that troubles me. Compare that to a meal replacer shake or a Power Bar or multivitamin and you'll see the difference.

What husbands take doesn't seem to matter much if at all.

[onelittlewish]

I guess I'll have to trust the stats! I don't think my maternal condition is declining in the slightest bit. In fact I feel like i'm in the heathiest pre-conception condition ever (no complain here!) - regular exercise, loads of veg and fruits, no processed food and no sugar. It is still very different from my diet when I conceived my boys (never skip breakfast, always snacking and very high protein&fat and low carb diet). I am very excited to see how it works on me!

Oh I will never give a hint to my Dr about taking this. She will lecture me for sure. It's gonna be my dark little secret here :cool:

DH is 36 and I am 33, we conceived both our sons with 2 attempts back to back around O day (either O-2, O-1 or O-1, O). I used OPK and I chart my temp so won't be too far off. I will continue to use OPK and temp as I have been doing those for years it's just something natural to do without adding stress. I usually O between CD14-CD16. I want to get pregnant on Clomid asap so I am not doing any cut offs, shallow release or J&D. The plan is 1 attempt on positive OPK because I usually O the day after the 1st pos (max 2 days because my temp takes around a day or 2 to climb) but I am not sure what to do before hand and since Clomid will probably mess up my cycle abit? I conceived both boys rather quickly, 1st one on the 1st attempt using OPK and 2nd one the month after I weaned him from breast feeding. I came here from the babydust and when I first came across their method I was like "no wonder I have two boys!". But after seeing alot of opposites with perfect sway or successes with imperfect sway I think its just not that simple. It's hard to ditch the idea cutoff completely but using Clomid I know my time is limited. So please advise me what to do to increase the chance of conception while sway in pinker direction! How many cycles can I be on Clomid, 3 or 6? Thank you atomic for your precious time, cannot say this enough :wink::wink:

[atomic sagebrush]

Beyond the stats (which are not scientifically compiled and thus can be misleading) it's my own observation based on 10+ years now. We've had several people at this point even have successful sways on the alternate diet after having opposites with the standard, and some of our most frustrating alternate diet opposites were in people who just kept on eating sugar sugar sugar thinking it didn't matter. I really have a very high level of faith in it at this point. If only everyone could stick with it without wasting away to nothing I would use it exclusively, but there are still quite a few people who just can't do it either from being very picky eaters, or else losing gobs of weight on it.

The vast majority of babies of either gender - between 2/3 to 3/4 depending on the stats you use - were conceived O-2, O-1, and O Day. The odds of conception from O-3 are not great (this is why so many people give up on Shettles timing - or Babydust, whatever they want to call it nowadays) and why we see people, regularly, going YEARS not conceiving with three day cutoffs. The odds of conception O-4, O-5 are vanishingly small, like 1 in 1000 and 1 in 10,000, respectively, and some data indicates more of those pregnancies are lost. The odds of conception O-6 is ZERO. Long story short, the reason you conceived boys that day, is because that's when human beings conceive BABIES. The timing of your intercourse had absolutely nothing to do with the gender of your baby.

Anyone who says they conceived with these long cutoffs was very likely wrong about the day they ovulated. In fact, when scientists using modern technology went back and looked at all the old Shettles studies, they found the same held true - very very few babies, and certainly not the 50% of babies that are girls, are conceived those days. The vast majority of all babies, boys and girls, are conceived O-2, O-1, and O Day. So while I know that it's hard to give up timing because you've heard so much about it, it's really been as completely debunked scientifically as it is possible for something to BE debunked (you can read all about it here: https://www.genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/7691-trouble-timing.html?highlight=trouble+timing) and you should not feel at all reluctant to give it up. It does nothing for you!

Do be aware that on Clomid your O day can and indeed, often DOES change, coming either sooner or later. Your OPK patterns can also change. I'm fine with you starting with one attempt at first positive OPK but we will need to add attempts probably as soon as next month if you're willing.

Clomid can be used up to six months but in many cases we'd do three, have a month off (and you can still try that month because we still see lots of girls conceived that month off the Clomid, and you can even do a stricter sway that month if you're worried about it) and then another three months. Going 5-6 months on Clomid can sometimes cut odds of conception. Another thing we do sometimes is do six consecutive months but in the 4th and 5th and 6th month, loosen up and add attempts. It's your choice whichever approach you prefer.

[atomic sagebrush]

Oh and re "maternal condition" that is not something you should be able to tell is happening. People conceive girls every day feeling totally normal and healthy and ovulating every month - indeed, this is what we WANT to happen. People who go on LE Diet too strictly and end up feeling terrible are not doing the diet right. The LE Diet is simply the lower end of normal. It isn't starvation, you're not meant to feel lousy or unhealthy while doing it.

There are many ways to think about a "healthy" diet. There is healthy in terms of heart health and cancer prevention, and the LE Diet is actually very good for that because it's lower fat and fewer calories. But when scientists put mice on a very low cal, low fat diet, they were "healthier" but then they stopped having babies. We also see a pretty clear demarcation when people have lost too much weight - and it really isn't super thin, either - where they stop ovulating or get a short LP or start having super long cycles. "Healthy" in terms of fertility requires higher calories, higher fat, overall more nutrients than just basic human health does.

[onelittlewish]

Right that makes a lot of sense, declining health in terms of fertility and not necessarily the overall condition. I thought i'd enjoy the standard diet because I could indulge in lots of sweets and white bread but I was miserable. I wasn't feeling hungry or starving at all but I was shaky, lightheaded and got chills from time to time usually an hour or two after the meal. I was on treadmill one night and felt like I was gonna pass out. My guess was that my body was not used to so much carbs & sugar in 1 huge meal so it cannot process them properly? Then I thought maybe that's how "declining maternal condition" should be. HA. Just really glad that I found the alternative diet and talked to you about it because I definitely can not stay on the standard one for long.

I've been on the traditional diet for 4 weeks and alt diet for 2.5 weeks now. My LP for last cycle was shortened by a day from 14 to 13 days according to FF but it might be I Oed on the same day of OPK instead of the next day, I am not sure. But as long as it doesn't keep on getting shorter and shorter I am fine right? Then my bbt of this new cycle is slightly higher. My temp has always been on the lower side, before O always below 36c (96.8F) and after O 36.2-36.5c (97.1-97.7F). This cycle I'm only at CD8 now so I don't have enough data but at the moment most days are above my previous cover line 36c. I'm not sure if that means anything but I hope the diet is doing something to my body!

Yes I will definitely throw the timing behind me! I wouldn't know how even if I wanted to because I have irregular cycles from 27-32days. It is just not feasible to keep 1 attempt + cut off + close enough to O to conceive without knowing when the O will show up.

If my cycle will change on Clomid and the plan is to have 1 attempt at pos OPK, what should DH do before that? Do we do abstain from CD1 till the pos OPK?

[onelittlewish]

And another question...is 6 egg whites a day too much? I prefer eating egg whites as my main protein source because I want to save the calories for my fruit and fat for my greek yoghurt & whipping cream. Will I ever get OD on eggwhites :nails:

[atomic sagebrush]

Eating too many egg whites can deplete the body of biotin. I would doubt that would happen in the brief amount of time you're on LE, but since you're not taking vitamins, let's go ahead and keep the 6 egg white days to 3x a week and use some other lowcal high protein thing like small amounts of chicken breast and fish the other days.

[atomic sagebrush]

Oh yeah that's not declining condition, that's blood sugar crashes! Anyone gets that from eating a lot of carbs and not much else. When you were on the treadmill, the diet + exercise burned off all the carbs in your blood and caused a HUGE blood sugar crash - very common if you run out of carbs while exercising. Some people do somewhat adjust over time on the standard diet but it's really very unpleasant in the meantime.

13 vs 14 days for LP is still totally in normal range. It's likely that you have always been having teeny fluctuations like that in LP and just hadn't noticed before.

Some people say higher temps = more girls. I am not at all sold on that but I'll share the theory at any rate!

TOTALLY re: timing. Keep in mind a lot of people who will swear on Dr. Shettles' ghost they had a certain cutoff, ALSO had irregular cycles. When I ask them, "well, how do you know you had a cutoff, since your cycle was irregular?" they will say "because I had a girl/boy, that proves it!" Long story short, most people have no idea whether or not timing worked for them and they just say it did because they got the gender they thought they "should." :)

Since your hubby is over 35 I would have him do daily release (aka frequent release) 1x a day for 7-10 days before one attempt. This is not a stellar sway tactic, so if it doesn't work out and he ends up doing more like regular release every 2-4 days, or even just "do what he does" it's no biggie.

[onelittlewish]

So if I understand correctly, I have those symptoms not because my body cannot process the excessive amount but because I wasn't eating enough protein and the simple carbs were digested too quickly thus causing the sugar crash? And alt diet helps because less carbs and the carbs are mainly in the form of whole grain or veg and the fiber helps to slow down the burning process? But I thought the low sugar is what we are aiming for with the LE diet? Something that also confuses me is that I get hungry easier on the standard diet and not so much on the alt diet. I don't know if it is because I am now eating complex carbs or higher fat/protein, or both. I rarely feel hungry, then is my blood sugar as low as it should be? During my fasting hours I drink black coffee with 100ml unsweetened almond milk which is about 12cal so I don't think that breaks my fast.

Today I reduced my eggs to 3 and added some 50g of chicken. I think I'll spread the eggs to 2-3 a day + 2 days of chicken and 5 days of white fish. It makes me abit nervous not to cut out meat completely but who knows how long will I be on the diet. And I guess you will say there are millions of girl moms out there eating meat every day, it's all about limit limit limit :wink: Or do you think tofu would be a better substitute? I remember you saying somewhere to limit soy intake but I am not too sure.

I think DH's libido has dropped quite abit after he stopped exercising, eating lots of junk food and gaining weight over the past year. Not sure there is a correlation here but hopefully it's doing me a favor. Daily release will probably be too stressful for us. If it doesn't really sway we will take the laid back approach. We need to ensure regular release at least every 4 days to keep the sperm healthy right? That is to up the odds of conception? And when you said 1 attempt, it means insemination and if we were to use pull out it is considered as a "release" and not an attempt right? My 2 sons were both conceived with 2 attempts in 2 consecutive days around O (one with another attempt 2 days before and the other one abstained the entire cycle before the attempts), so I'll def stick to 1 attempt for as long as I could!

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes that's the same symptoms anyone would have if they had a blood sugar crash. If anything it likely means your body handles carbs just fine. People who have poor insulin response often don't have as severe blood sugar crashes because their blood sugar stays higher longer after they eat.

The alternate diet helps a lot because slightly fewer carbs and more important, BETTER carbs, slow down the process some. Your blood sugar doesn't shoot up as high, or drop so low, but on AVERAGE it's just as beneficial (indeed, according to our results, MORE beneficial). Your body doesn't like low blood sugar and will quickly take steps to raise it. So it isn't low blood sugar ~exactly~ we're aiming at, though we do call it that, it's more as a shorthand to describe a really complicated process of regulating blood sugar. And the alternate diet seems to be more beneficial for that whole process than the "crash and burn", not to mention easier to stick to and better for fertility.

Being too hungry can actually set sways up to fail because you're going to cheat, it's a matter of WHEN, and then additionally it takes so much self-control and constant effort to stick to the diet when you're starvated it often becomes a form of control freakishness, just in forcing yourself to stick to the crash and burn type of LE. Don't overthink it, doing what works for most people most of the time is a really good approach for everyone, even if we can't look at a body of science to say the reasons WHY>

:agree: coffee with a little almond milk doesn't count as a meal.

Meat within limits is fine! People have such a fear of meat due to the magic foods concept but it's really limits that matter. You're absolutely right about everyone eating meat and not even thinking about it but if you check their portion size, it is there you'll likely see the difference between boy moms and girl moms.

I suggest fish only 2 servings per week due to the risks of mercury, even in low mercury fish. Tofu is fine 2x a week for most people - a few people with severe hypothyroid can't handle any soy but check with your doc if that is the case.

We have seen gobs of girls conceived to chubby hubbies - including my girl, who came when my husband was at his heaviest by far. Yes regular release ensures a decent amount of healthy sperm, which in turn means you're more likely to get pregnant with the one attempt. Pull out is considered a release and not an attempt, but do be sure hubby is able to pull out quick enough - we've had a couple pull out oopsies, though it is a good method of BC if you can rely on him to follow through.

[onelittlewish]

Thank you Atomic for explaining so thoroughly, I have learnt so much more from you just in the past days. I have always been the overthinking/A-type personality/control & planning freak type of person always trying to achieve "perfection" in everything (now no doubt I have only boys!) but there is no perfect sway. Understanding the big picture and the reasonings behind really helps me to at least know that I am on the right track and am doing everything within my ability. I was quite anxious at the idea of TTC again before I come here but thanks to you now I am quite relaxed and excited to start. If I am still getting a boy after doing so much, I guess he is meant to be!

I will keep fish to max 2x a week and have chicken breast for the other days and occasionally tofu. I am eating protein for the sake of hitting the goal so I don't mind what I eat as long as they are pink friendly :bigsmile:

Hubby is fully embracing his new healthy life style. Cardio 45min a day and eating so much cleaner. On a good note, he is eating less meat (mostly chicken and fish, steak only 1x a week) and more veggies and fruits. Fingers crossed that he can lose a decent amount of weight in the next 5 weeks before our 1st attempt!

We have been using pullout + my OPK & charting as BC in the past years because we were ok with an oopsie and up until now it has been pretty effective for us. We will try to stick to regular release as it is much simpler to follow without too much stress. If my O is delayed on Clomid until who knows when I don't know if he can carry through frequent release till the end.

A quick question about alcohol - I have been taking 1-2 shots of whiskey/rum with meal daily throughout the cycle. If we are starting to ttc, should I stop alcohol after O or after BFP? Can I still drink alcohol while taking Clomid?

Also just out of curiosity, I know the chances of getting twins on Clomid is quite slim and to be honest I don't mind as long as I get one girl. What are the chances of getting twin boys with LE diet on Clomid? Have you come across any in the past years? I'd love the double blessing but 4 boys under 4 my my my :worry:

[atomic sagebrush]

Hey, look at it this way, we are ALL like that and yet our good results are all in people with that tendency!

:agree: and I'm fine with regular release. I would honestly have everyone switch over to that if I had my way.

You can drink after Clomid, but most people stop after ovulation. It is ~probable~ that it's safe to drink up through a positive pregnancy test but it's best to err on the side of stopping before you could possibly be pregnant, so at ovulation.

[atomic sagebrush]

Oops, I missed a question!

Yes, we have had for sure two sets of b-b twins on Clomid and then a couple other B-B twins on the site that were had in various circumstances. One of the gals who got BB twins on Clomid could not sway very hard for some medical reason I can't remember now (she had had some serious health issue a year or so before and we had to be super cautious with her sway diet and she had to take a lot of supplements to prevent nutrient depletion) and then one of the gals who got BB twins without Clomid wasn't swaying and had had an oopsie pregnancy. So it's not that likely, but it absolutely CAN happen to people and of course it's massively upsetting for people when it does.

[onelittlewish]

That's true, at least with this tendency we are pretty self-disciplined (most of the time) when it comes to sticking to the sway plan!

I had my doctor's appointment yesterday and the all results came back normal :bigsmile: Lining looks normal, ovaries healthy and no cyst. So I think I can go ahead with Clomid once my next cycle starts :fingers:

Now I have another issue now with my weight. I am now 3 weeks on alt diet and right after I switched to alt diet my weight held steady for a good two weeks but after I had my period (the 2nd week on alt diet) my weight started dropping slowly and I lost a pound last week, the 3rd week on alt diet. My BMI went from 18.7 to 18.5 now and I know I cannot loose anymore weight :worry:If I want to up my calories, should I up prot/fat as well or do I just add more carbs and keep the prot/fat at 55-60g range? Should I try to gain more weight or keep it where it is as long as I am still ovulating? I am now at my mid cycle and 2nd day of high on digital OPK. Hopefully O is around the corner...

[atomic sagebrush]

Excellent news, next cycle it is!

We need to have you eat more calories for sure and so if you need to up protein and fat slightly to do it, that's a-ok. I have people up protein/fat in 5 g increments usually, so go first to 65 g and see if you are getting enough cals at that point to stop weight loss.

I would not try to gain weight deliberately, but if a lb. or two sneaks back on, so be it. We have not found small amounts of weight gain, particularly when on the LE Diet to be predictive of anyone's sway not working.

[onelittlewish]

:agree::agree: well noted! I think I have quite a solid plan and I will work on my diet & weight for the time being and hopefully all goes well till our first attempt :wink:

Thank you so much Atomic, for your support and encouragement and just everything. It meant so much and at this point I have peace in me. I'll update you if anything and please stay safe and healthy & greetings from Indonesia :wave:

[atomic sagebrush]

Thank you! You all please stay safe and healthy too! I've heard Indonesia is one of the most beautiful places on earth! :wave:

[onelittlewish]

There are so so so many beautiful untouched places here to explore if you a nature lover, hopefully you get to visit when all of this is over!

I have another question...does the source of the protein make a difference in terms of swaying? At the moment I get my protein from eggs, chicken breast, greek yoghurt and cheese. I try to avoid soy product and white fish. Should I eat more of this and less of that? Maybe I am overthinking again :worry:

[atomic sagebrush]

I would love to do that someday!

The truth is, we simply do not know about different types of protein. I am fine with you guys eating all those protein sources but I would suggest keeping soy and fish (of any hue) to 2-3 servings per week. Soy does have some effect on hormones and fish can have mercury and other nasty stuff built up in it - all women tTC should keep fish intake to 2-3 servings a week.

[onelittlewish]

That's great to hear, now I have a bit more calories to spare I can play around with the numbers and be more generous with foot that has protein and fat like cheese. Totally prefer that over dry chicken breasts. But I am not sure if there is such a thing as "too much dairy" too. I don't usually have a whole lot of fish in my diet apart from salmon so I don't mind leaving it out entirely.

So now my diet looks like this (~1700cal, 57g protein & 59g of fat not counting the ones in my apples and corn)

I eat 11-1 and 6-8, fasting from 8pm-11am (15hrs)

Main meal (divided into 2 portions, I eat the same things for lunch n dinner and everyday to simplify my cooking plan)
- 1c brown rice
- 2 slice of cheese
- 3 eggwhites
- 1 corn
- 4 T parmesan cheese
- 2oz of chicken breast
- loads of pepper, mushroom and other leafy greens that I cook for the family

Then I have with the meals
- 2x full fat greek yoghurt + 1/3c frozen bluberries
- 2x apples
- 2x shot of rum
- 1x iced black coffee with 3 T of whipping cream (with lunch)

Then to get me through the fasting periods
- 2x iced black coffee with 3oz of unsweetened almond milk (for morning and between meals)


Then 1Tish of canola oil for stir frying my food

Does it look good to you? Is 21 eggwhites a week still too much? Should I go lower with egg whites and add more chicken?

Thank you!

[atomic sagebrush]

Within limits you can have however much dairy you like.

I would personally have you switch out the egg whites for a couple meals of SOMEthing else. Nuts, legumes, tofu 2x a week. Salmon is ok! I hate to think of you choking down dry chicken if it's gross!

[onelittlewish]

Hi Atomic again, I have another question and wonder if you can give me any suggestion. If I can get hold of Femara and Clomid, which one would you recommend, in terms of better chances and less side effect? Over here I think Femara goes by the name LEZRA100 2.5 MG, it is Letrozole, same thing right?

And good news, I have gained back the weight that I had lost and I will lower the calories abit and find the sweet spot so I don't keep gaining or losing weight. I am very susceptible to weight fluctuation, sometimes I wonder if all the changes are just from water. I have also limited my eggwhites to 2x a day now and added edamame and tofu per your advice.

[atomic sagebrush]

I'm sure this is somewhere in our messages but I'm not seeing it - what is your age?

Don't worry about small weight fluctuations. Those are normal and to be expected (and the level of control freakishness we'd have to have in order to prevent them would only sway blue anyway!) a few pounds back and forth is no biggie.

[onelittlewish]

I am 33. So I tried to do some searching yesterday and I read that Femara is better for ladies over 40, has a better pregnancy rate for PCO ladies, has lower side effect, less chance of getting twins and even better in swaying pink. But I think I came across one of your replies that Clomid has a better chance of getting pregnant for younger woman, but I am not sure how young would benefit from that. I think my age is somewhere in between so I am confused which would do me a bigger favor in terms of getting pregnant fast.

The past week has been harder than I thought with the diet. It started out pretty OK for the first 2 months and I actually really enjoy the food itself, it's just that not able to eat whatever and whenever I want is eating me up esp when the kids are more demanding and out of control. I feel very low and easily irritated esp during the ovulation period I guess due to hormonal changes n such.

[atomic sagebrush]

You can use either Femara or Clomid (and yes, that medication is a form of Femara. Either is fine. I do feel we see better rates of conception in Clomid and you are definitely in the age group you could take it. (and Femara is only slightly better than Clomid, according to one study, while there are several studies showing Clomid has a pink sway effect) It's your call to make on that.

Many times if you're having cravings suddenly it's due to hormones. And the good news is, the solution is easy - EAT SOMETHING! This is partly why we have the "planned and allowed cheats" in the LE Diet. When you are really just having some craving you can't live without, figure out what that really is, what will really satisfy you, and have that. It is totally allowed, it is part of the diet, and it is all taken into consideration when I made the diet. And if you need to add a 4th meal in, or even a 5th now and then, that is fine too. You'll be surprised that if you approach cheating as a "this is a tool to use when I need it" you will need it far less than you think.

What people typically do instead is they try to be good, using up all their willpower (aka, control freakishness, which sways blue anyway) end up eating 4000 rice cakes and cranberries or whatever foods they think are pink-friendly, then realizing they have just eaten 3000 calories of nothing. They're still hungry, they're still totally unsatisfied, and since they've blown their diet anyway they go on to eat 3000 more calories of whatever they were wanting (and usually a bunch of stuff they didn't really want but they just couldn't stop once they started). Then, because they feel guilty, they will decide to eat 500 calories for the next week to make up for it, but end up doing the same thing because they're so hungry (and of course this has a negative effect on ovulation too). This is a vicious cycle and it's really hard to break out of it.

So instead of doing that, when you're really starvated for something, just eat the ONE THING (or two, two is also ok) you want instead of having whatever meal you planned for your LE Diet. You will end up in many cases finding out you ate barely any more calories than you normally did anyway, and you'll feel way better because you satisfied the craving you had. (Plus it gives your body a shot at any nutrients you were lacking that may have been underwriting that particular craving) Then you may find it easier to pick it up with the diet as you were doing it because you're no longer obsessed with those feelings of being constantly denied what you wanted.

BTW this is true of EVERY diet, if you ever need to diet in the future for whatever reason, do NOT get into that binge/purge mentality because it undermines all diet attempts! It's better to cheat now and then, than to end up flipping back and forth between starving yourself and gorging yourself!

[onelittlewish]

Clomid it is then, it is more common here so easier to find and since it has better conception chance for me I have no other concern!

Thank you for your thoughtful words :) I was mainly craving for sweet & high fat food like cake/cookies/chocolates etc and I did end up eating small portions with my meals in the last week or two to keep my sanity intact. I guess my problem is I think I will never be done with these sweet cravings. So once I had some I would crave for more. I know I can tolerate a bit sugar and add them to my regular menu but I think cutting sugar plays quite a big role in my diet so I really wanted to keep it minimum, or does make that of a big difference at all by the end of the day? :worry:

Also what frustrates me, I guess, is that originally I planned to start trying after 8 weeks on the diet because I thought it was gonna be hard. Then when I went on full LE, skipping breakfast and no snacking and did my meal planning, it was a bit challenging but not like the end of the world. I kind of enjoyed the new way of eating and thought, why not go 12 weeks for optimal result. I did really well and no cheating at all with minimum effort (or probably using up my willpower without consciously knowing) and I was super confident that I can carry on with such and have no regret knowing that I did all i could. Then just at the last month right before the attempt when I should at least keep the same level of persistence (if not stricter) I have to loosen up my diet. Now I am not sure if 8 weeks of stricter diet is actually better or 12 weeks slacking off at the end. I think I am just anxious and not as chilled as I thought I would be when the time is near.

[atomic sagebrush]

You're quite right, you won't ever be done with the cravings! I know some people who give up sugar will say "and then I never craved sugar again" but those people are fibbing. Both physically and psychologically we are hardwired to like sweet things and then goody treats are so everpresent thru our lives and imbued with so much meaning to us it is normal to turn to them sometimes. And that is OK!

You do NOT need to be stricter the month before your attempt. In fact, most people do indeed relax over time and yet our results clearly show a demarkation after 12 weeks - anything beyond 12 weeks gets much better results (even tho people are often much more relaxed) and 2-4 weeks gets poor results even though most people are very strict. So it just can't be that strictness 2-4 weeks before attempt is required.

Now, some people (those with PCOS or tendencies that way) do benefit from cutting out sugar but most of us can have some. So unless you have reason to believe you need to cut it out completely it's fine sometimes within the limits of the day.

[onelittlewish]

What a relief to hear! I don't think I have PCO tendencies because I never see any signs of the PCOS symptoms in my life. I will stop beating my self up and allow some sweet treats on regular basis. Hopefully by doing that I can curb my cravings for sweets or at least stop being obsessed with the feelings. It feels miserable and you are totally right about it being a vicious cycle. I always end up caving in and then feeling extremely guilty about it. And I guess what's worse is that when I am eating a bite here and there, although with meal and although in small portion, it's off the book so I am eating on top of my daily quota. I am sure they are pretty high calories cost and each bit is jam packed with calories and fat.

I am feeling much better and 3 more weeks to go :superhero:

[atomic sagebrush]

A little bit here and there is no biggie. Once you relax and know you can have things now and then, that will likely dry up as well because your body will think "it's ok I don't need to do this any more". Keep me posted!

[onelittlewish]

Help atomic!!! I am on my CD11 and I am spotting already. My temp dropped and I think I am expecting my period in full flow today or tomorrow which means my LP has shortened from 13-14 days to 10-11 days. Should I still try this cycle with clomid or do I need to fix my LP first? Do I still have a chance to get pregnant with 10-11 days LP? I thought I have been eating quite alot of good fat through full fat dairy (2 servings of greek yoghurt and cheese and heavy cream). What should I do?

[atomic sagebrush]

How did you determine ovulation?

Eating more fat takes a bit of time, sometimes you don't see improvements right away. Keep doing what you're doing. I would add in 4-6 eggs a week to that and a serving of salmon if you like it, red meat if you don't per week.

Clomid, in many cases, will lengthen LP. There's no reason to hold off on Clomid for a short LP and in fact it's often given as a treatment FOR short LP.

You can absolutely get pregnant with LP of 10-11 days. In fact, 12 days is considered fully normal. It's really only 7 days or less (with 8 being borderline) where there is not enough time for the fertilized egg to successfully implant in the uterus.

I also want to point out that what your LP is doing this month does not have any bearing on NEXT month. LP has to do with this month's cycle, which is now over. Next month, you will have an entirely different hormonal profile that may be similar to this or may be totally different. So don't worry that this is a sign that your LP is going to be permanently shorter, it really isn't the case at all.

[onelittlewish]

I determined ovulation by temping + OPK, I had a pretty significant temp rise. I have attached my chart below.

Weird thing is, I only had spotting (pinkish discharge) a few times yesterday and today the temp came back up abit. Usually when my temp dropped to this zone + spotting it signals period coming. I don’t understand anymore but whatever it is I am glad the game is still on :running:

43408

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes that's a clear shift there, no argument from me about when O happened! On rare occasions we sometimes see temps rise, and then rise again (delayed ovulation) but your chart looks pretty clear cut.

We do often see a temp drop and recover at around 7 DPO, you would be a bit late for that but with the spotting and temp rise I must admit my eyebrow is raised! Sometimes this is something we see with a pregnancy...

[onelittlewish]

haha I know what's in your mind but I got my full flow today! Can't be happier to see my period because I really want to have Clomid in the game. That leaves me a 12 days LP which I know is within the normal range but just the trend that it's getting shorter cycle after cycle concerns me. This cycle I ovulated on the later end of my normal range as well and with the spotting it's quite messy! I am at CD1 and so nervous to take my 1st pill in two days. Cycle 1 here we go :superhero:

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes I was hoping! I'm glad your period came though!

PLEASE do not worry about a 12 day LP. LP does not "get shorter and shorter every month" it's not a thing. LP can get shorter and longer and as long as it's in normal range it's all good. Even 10-11 LP is of no consequence, and 8-9 day LP is still enough time for a pregnancy to develop.

The Clomid will change your cycle dramatically so do be aware that very likely will happen. And there's no reason to worry about what happened last month, remember that this is a NEW month, new lining, new hormones, and that's even without the Clomid on board! Good luck!

[onelittlewish]

I am on CD7 and last day of my Clomid!! I am actually feeling quite ok and the side effects (esp the mood swings) weren't as tough as I had expected (or yet to come after the last pill??) apart from the ridiculous fatigue. I take my pills before bed but still waking up extremely exhausted and brain frogged all day long. Slight headache and light headed but nothing entirely manageable.

We are doing regular release every 4 days and one attempt at +OPK. If I remembered correctly I should start testing on CD10?

DH started cycling mid Sept because he find running on treadmill too boring (smiling broadly here). He will be cycling for probably 2-3 weeks (1hr/5-6x a week) till our first attempt. Would that be long enough to favor our sway?

[atomic sagebrush]

Taking the pills before bed can really help with the side effects - I hope the brain fog goes away for you soon!

Be sure you're doing the e4d in the 72 hour pattern (not those hours but that's how you count the days, like Monday/Thursday - attempt any time on the right day)

Since you took Clomid let's start CD 11 instead with the OPK - you can get false positives for three days after using Clomid (tho less likely that third day), and you won't ovulate till the 5th day or further out, so by starting the OPK on the 4th day you are going to be in in time to see a legit surge (if you're going to O on the 5th day after the dose) and without the risk of a false pos 3 days after your last dose.
Yes cycling can likely help the sway - it can kill sperm though so we're hoping to hit that sweet spot for you guys where there is enough left to fertilize the egg!

[onelittlewish]

:agree: noted on starting OPK on CD11. And regarding the BD pattern, I am abit confused, were you suggesting having attempt e4d? At the moment as this is the first cycle, the originally plan has been 1 attempt at pos OPK and pull out every 4 days before that for regular release. Now that I am not counting every food I put in my mouth and loosened up abit in general it’s not that stressful with the diet. my pre-o mind tells me i can stick for a bit longer with the diet although getting preg fast would be ideal. Do you think 1 attempt is worth giving a try? I am just not sure now with hubby cycling, would that reduce sperm count so much that there’s no good chance with just 1 attempt at pos OPK? Hope I am not confusing you now typing with my fogged mind :oops:

[atomic sagebrush]

Oh gosh I'm sorry I read "every 4 days" and assumed you were doing every 4 days plus one more attempt at positive OPK. But you were saying have your husband do regular release with the one attempt. Gotcha.

Yes I absolutely think one attempt is worth trying. I just misread the original message.

[onelittlewish]

So I am at CD12 we had our one attempt tonight, but I might (or might not) have screwed up this cycle because +OPK came way early and totally unexpected. I started testing yesterday at CD11 and got neg in the morning, I tested again in the afternoon and still neg but I skipped the night testing since we did our "regular release". I did digital for the first day yesterday as well and of course it is low since it is the first one of the cycle. Then this morning I got a peak without any high and also pos on OPK strip. "Normally" my peak starts in the morning and lasts for 2 days, and I usually O on the next day after pos OPK and occasionally 2 days after. But, since I didn't test last night I have no clue whether my surge started already last. My temp dropped quite abit too so maybe I O'ed already today. I guess we just have to wait and see. Fingers crossed for catching the egg.

By the way, does clomid raise your BBT? My temp has been pretty all over the place, got higher post af so I have no clue where my cover line is now too. Here is my chart and the X is the reg release and PM is the one attempt. There is no prob with reg release the day before the attempt right? I really hope this is our month because I felt good this cycle. Really calm and stable emotionally. And unbelievably gentle and patient with my kids ...or somehow more in the "whatever" state of mind :shrug:

43411

[atomic sagebrush]

If it was negative at midday it was likely negative at night. Midday is the most likely time you'll get a high.

You did exactly right. Had attempt the day of first positive. The temp drop usually correlates with the day before O.

I would likely either keep testing or else go to e4d at this point to cover against delayed O.

Clomid does have an affect on temping, some people don't even temp on Clomid.

[onelittlewish]

I always thought the temp dip is on O day but you are right, when my temp climbed instead of spiked the dip had been the day before O. My temp increased abit this morning but not significantly. At least we were not too late in the game. I will continue temping i should see a temp rise tomorrow if I O today correct? If I am not seeing a temp rise on CD15 morning, I should BD that night. Am I getting the math right here?

CD12 BD
CD13 skip
CD14 skip
CD15 BD

Thank you thank you milllllllionnnnns for your guidance along the way :bighug:

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes, I'm sorry, that was confusing bordering on inaccurate, let me clarify.

The temp dip in the morning means that you usually have the next full day to have sex. Sometime in that 24 hour span ovulation will occur and in ~most~ cases it is more at the tail end of that, so NOT that you have a temp dip and you're going to necessarily ovulate at any second. What I was trying to say there was that the temp dip in the morning is getting you in with a day to go not like just a couple hours (which is what most assume), and just totally miswrote that (I think I was thinking of the OPK LOL)

Then, in addition to that, we are seeing a lot of people who have a temp dip and then it takes 2-3 days to see a rise, or there's a rise and then another rise, and ovulation could have occurred even later than that.

But yes, you're right in that if you see that BIG temp rise following a temp dip that means that ovulation has ~probably~ occurred.

Yes that's the right math for the e4d.

[onelittlewish]

Makes sense, also depending on the time you O and the time you took the temp in the morning right. I have had all the scenarios you mentioned above, temp rise right after the dip, the second day and also the third day. There were also times when the first two days DPO are still in the mid range then shoot up only at 3DPO. I normally only use temping to confirm O because it's just different every single month for me but I think I usually O on the second day of pos OPK taking the temp rise pattern and LP length into account.

My temp today went up only a tiny bit again (two small rises after the dip) but my OPK went neg, CM dried up and cervix closed yesterday afternoon. Fingers crossed that O has taken place! On the side note, I still have egg white mucus (just not a whole lot but it has decreased since I started LE and did not dry up as I read after taking Clomid) and I didn't have any discomfort during and after taking the pills and no cramping or bloating on the O day AT ALL! I know I should be grateful because I was so scared of the side effects when deciding to take them but now when I didn't suffer from them I started to wonder Clomid is working properly as it should (i just can't stop thinking whether it will work and all i can & should do now is WAIT argh). Is there any way to know if Clomid is doing something to my body when I am ovulating already on my own?

[atomic sagebrush]

YES! Determining ovulation is easiest if you use several different methods simultaneously. I would still do a bit of e4d just in case but if

I personally had EWCM for a couple days after O when I conceived my DD. People think it's impossible to have EWCM post ovulation but it's hormones that cause EWCM, and so if your hormones just take a bit of time to clear out, you will have EWCM after O.

Many people have that fear, that the Clomid isn't working, but it does work for practically everyone who takes it (probably even better for those already ovulating). It HAS TO BE working for you, it's doing something. It doesn't just not work for a person - it may not work well enough, such as in the case of someone who isn't ovulating, but it IS still having the effects it's meant to. It can take months to see less EWCM with Clomid. So you have to trust that it's doing what it needs to do.

[onelittlewish]

I was doubting particularly because I thought dryness is one of the major symptoms on Clomid and I was def not dry at all! Very watery and I did have EWMC, more creamy in color and not awfully alot but def not dry at all. At least the BD was easy and should increase the chance of conception i hope.

My temp increased by 0.2c today. Normally this is def in my post-O temp but this cycle my numbers are all over the place before the dip so I am not sure anymore. However i think i will still try the 1 attempt since the results are so good and there is no regret later on. Plus I have loads of creamy CM today I don’t think my fertile anymore. If my O is indeed delayed at least with next cycle I know what Clomid can do and will move on to ed4 for better chance. Now I know why ed4 takes so much uncertainty out of the picture. I always thought it’s pretty straightforward as long as I use OPK but things are different when you only have 1 attempt in the cycle!

Here is my chart up to date

43412

Now i just need to survive the two weeks wait without overthinking and overeating sweets :nails: the craving for sweet and fatty food really spike like clockwork. Usually i am satisfied with a bite or two and now I can’t get enough! Without alcohol i have abit more cal to spare and I have swapped out some high fat routine food like cheese to make room for abit more sweets so that at least i am still within the cal limit and not loosing my mind. Hope that wont undermine the future sway too much if this cycle is not successful?

[atomic sagebrush]

Yep not everyone even experiences those symptoms to start with and like I said, it can take a couple months to really kick in! I think you're good!

As long as the one attempt is just this month, and then in future months on Clomid we need to move on from that.

If you have a craving in the 2ww, go ahead and have what you're craving. If you have it sometimes, it can help a LOT the rest of the time. Otherwise what tends to happen is that you stuff yourself on food you think is "good" and then realize you just ate 3000 calories of nothing, and you're still having the craving. Then most people figure, well I ruined everything anyway, I'll have a blowout and eat everything I ever wanted and end up having major, major binges. It's so much better to understand that you're going to cheat sometimes and plan accordingly than to set yourself up to fail by thinking you never will.

[onelittlewish]

:agree: will move on to e4d next cycle. too much guess work here and alot of stress.

My temp today rose only slightly from 36.20 to 36.25, so still no huge shift yet. My post-O temps usually start at 36.2 then goes up to 36.6. Even when my pre-O temps are higher this cycle, they only hit 36.2 and never higher and never 3 consecutive days. I guess it's safe to say O happened if I get another day >36.2 tomorrow? If, only if, O did not happen, should I be expecting another LH surge before the real O happens later? I am still testing OPK 1x mid day and so far all neg since the last positive.

And yes I am embracing that idea. I still have cravings but no more food obsession which is great. I am so gassy and hungry and moody since today 3DPO. If it's not from ovulation then it's probably the clomid craziness kicking in. Now I am so looking forward to waking up so I can temp and read your reply. am i too weird :giggle:

[onelittlewish]

So I had a huge temp rise by 0.45 degrees today! FF puts my O date the day after my second pos OPK since my temp this cycle is 0.1 higher than usual. If it is correct it puts my BD two days before O. My last two pregnancies were conceived the day of or before O with no cut off so don’t know if this one will make it! :fingers:

43413

[atomic sagebrush]

Crazily enough, 2 days before ovulation is also a good day to conceive. FX for pinkie on the way!

[onelittlewish]

I am still hopeful that FF got it wrong. They lifted my cover line due to the high temps from covid. I read somewhere that your cover line should have remained the same as your previous cycles so if that's the case I did O the day after pos OPK and had a gradual temp rise. Either way, it's a done deal now and I'll def keep you updated! My temp dropped 0.3 again today after the major shift yesterday so I have no clue what's going on. Fingers crossed for a sticky pinkie bean!

[atomic sagebrush]

Do you mean Clomid??

Whoever said your cover line will be the same on Clomid is smoking something LOL. 100% not the case, and many people don't even temp on Clomid, like I said, because their temps are just wacky, especially before O.

You can do e4d to cover in case you haven't Oed yet!

[onelittlewish]

LOL you are right! ill do e4d and stop reading into every number on the chart. Ive been temping for years and thought ive learnt to only read the big picture and not tiny fluctuations. I was so confident that this TTC wont mess with my head and I was totally wrong! Next round ill probably drop the temping too.

[onelittlewish]

Hi Atomic again...I am on 13DPO, temp dropped this morning and period showed with full force mid morning. Kind of expected due to the delayed ovulation & not so pretty temp but still pretty bummed. So back to square one and a new start.

The TWW had crushed me pretty hard and I had been eating way more chocolate and sugary desserts than I should to cope with the anxiety. Nevertheless, I have lost almost a kg (~2lbs) in the past two weeks even with those extra sugar and calories. It happens when I am under stress. Now my bmi dropped to 18.3 and I know I just need to eat more. Do you think it is OK to keep some sugar in the diet? I have been eating about 50g of milk chocolate a day, I have no clue if this is considered alot or moderate or not so much at all.

My chart last cycle looks like a roller coaster in the rocky mountains...and so was my mood. So I think this time I will temp till 5dpo or until I have confirmed O? Or should I drop charting all together?

Then comes to the most important BD pattern. I know you suggested e4d but can you help me to understand why it is better than 1 attempt at +OPK? I usually O the day or 2 days after the first +OPK, so if I do 1 attempt at OPK it is either BD at O-1 or O-2. If we do e4d it is possible that we BD O-3 and O, which is even less likely to conceive right?

Here is my rocky chart...I thought I had a chance when my temp spiked after a dip :sad:

[atomic sagebrush]

Delayed ovulation and weird temps don't mean you can't conceive though. I think you're saying "because you weren't sure when to have attempt" but I just want to make sure, because people sometimes think a goofy cycle is doomed. It isn't.

If weight is dropping then you can add some sugar to keep weight on. OR, you can add in a 4th meal (put breakfast back in) or a little of both. I would not just start eating gobs more sugar, though. Firstly because it's not "real" food and may not be as good at keeping weight on when we really need it to (particularly when w've improved insulin response by losing weight - our bodies can oftentimes handle sugar easily in that case and just get rid of it wihtout storing any as fat) and secondly because if you do still have some egg quality issues, it's not ideal for that because the rise of blood sugar, even if it drops later on, may not be great for egg health. So some sugar is ok, but let's try for just more food overall as well.

There are two main reasons why e4d is better than one attempt for conception. First of all, in these unpredictable months, you will ALWAYS be in with one attempt in the fertile window regardless of when you O. Even in the "worst case" scenario of O-3 and O Day attempt, that is still one attempt because if there was anything left from the O-3 attempt, it would already have fertilized the egg before the O Day shot could capacitate and make it to the egg, and if there isn't, then the O Day shot will have a chance at it. you are guarded against both early and late ovulation, you're guarded against false positive OPK and false negative ones, plus it also helps keep your husband happier.

And the second reason is a little more hard to understand so please feel free to ask for clarity if you need it. But we don't KNOW that first positive OPK is going to be the best day to conceive with one attempt for you, or at least for you in any given month. Maybe the day before first pos is better. Maybe the day after. Maybe 2 days after. If we carry on forever always having the same day of attempt, if a different day is better for you (or would be better in any given month, this absolutely can vary) then you may go on and on having sex on a day that was never particularly ideal. So both in terms of ensuring you have an attempt even with early or late O, and adding this element of randomness so we don't get locked into just one day forever and ever in case that day wasn't ideal for you, it's much better for chances of conception. Even O-3 and O Day is not worse chances of conception than just one attempt, because there's so much unpredictability with OPK and sooo many people end up having one attempt only to O several days or a week later, just having regular attempts is going to boost your chances of conceiving.

[onelittlewish]

Thank you for your thorough explanation, I think I understand both reasons behind the advantage of e4d. I had no doubt that I can conceive but it's just tricky to BD on the right date when the cycle is messy and we are trying with only have 1 attempt in the fertile window.

Ovulation 24/48 hours after 1st pos are both considered normal for me. I have some months this and some months that but I wouldn't know in advance of course. It probably won't be an issue unless I am only able to conceive with an attempt on O-1 and not on other days? Is that even possible? Perhaps the life span of hubby's sperms is on the shorter end? It is just my speculation though. I looked through my previous TTC charts and found that the failed cycles are the ones that missed an attempt on O-1. We started with every other day but we kept missing the O-1 so we then changed to 2 days in a row from 1st pos to cover both scenarios and conceived right away. But I guess this sway blue really strongly because I personally got both boys with this pattern. If this is the case, then even with e4d I would need to wait for a cycle that comes together perfectly, right? E4d is probably my best shot now, should I start from the end of my period, or CD10 since I wont O until CD12 with Comid, or after the 1st pos OPK?

:agree: I will try my best to cut down my sugar. I tried a later brekkie at 10 today and it felt weird lol. I used to be such a breakfast person and I MUST eat right after I wake up. I think I'll try to squeeze a meal in the afternoon. This diet is quite unbelievable though. I couldn't understand how I continue to burn fat without starving myself (and rather stuffing myself). Probably the long fasting overnight? or the lower protein n fat? or the no snacking? I had 1x serious diet when I was in high school. I was counting calories and doing cardio like what I am doing now but I wasn't limiting fat and protein. I lost tons of weight but I plateaued at bmi 19. I was super strict as to what went into my mouth and hungry all the time but my weight never went lower. I am now at my lowest weight since I was in my teens and I still get to enjoy the food I like from time to time. I'll def use this this diet if I need to shed some baby fat later.

I'll start my 2nd round of Clomid tomorrow. I don't have anymore preg test at home but my temps are def in the pre-O zone. Can I be sure that I am not preg with my temp or should I get a preg test to be on the safe side? I did test CD 10/11/12 the last 3 days of my last cycle before my period arrived and all came back neg.

[atomic sagebrush]

No, it is not possible that you can only conceive on O-1. That's not a thing. And your husband's sperm does not have a set lifespan, it all depends on what the environment is and that can vary from month to month and even from day to day.

Your BD pattern in the months you got boys really doesn't mean anything, though. Yes, that was more BD than I would consider good for a pink sway, but the truth is that number of attempts in the fertile window is just ONE aspect of swaying and you could very likely make other changes that give you a better chance of pink even with that pattern. I just don't want you to overthink that because swaying never comes down to one thing.

Even if you were having sex twice a day you still have to wait for everything to come together. It's just how it goes, we all have only about 20% chance of conception every month.

I would have you DO NOT wait till positive OPK to start e4d, that erases over half the benefit of it because you're not protected against early O that way. You can start after your period or after the last dose of Clomid, it doesn't matter whichever you prefer.

If you need breakfast, eat breakfast. That's just one little element of the diet, and we've had several people who needed breakfast for work obligations who still got girls.

I honestly don't know why the LE is so effective for some people. I'll have people who are eating 2200 cals a day and weight is flying off even tho they're already thin. I wish I had more ability to study what the biological mechanisms are.

My preference is for a pregnancy test but you've had the three tests, plus your period, and the temps as well. I'ts your call to make, safest side we'd do a test to be certain, tho I understand it's quite inconvenient.

[onelittlewish]

Thank you so much Atomic. I wasn't even convinced myself while I was typing down those but there were still doubts in me so I needed to hear it from you. You were right, maybe during the months when we didn't BD on O-1 my eggs or my body weren't in the perfect condition to be conceived too. And we didn't even try for that long with both, 1 & 3 months respectively. Will do e4d this cycle for sure. I think I am long enough on the diet and really need to get preg asap with Clomid. Will keep you updated :ttcgirl:

[atomic sagebrush]

O-1 is a great day to get pregnant on, don't get me wrong. O-2 and O-1 have by far the best chance of conception. My point is, there's nothing inside your body or hubby's body that is running any kind of a "countdown" that means you can only get preggo from sex on a certain day, if that makes any sense.

Even in perfect condition, with perfect eggs, you have about a 20% chance of conception every month with real world attempts. Even with scientific levels of support to find the perfect moment for sex, it's only 40%. It's hard to get the timing just right for people, and it's hard for sperm to find the egg, and even after conception there are a zillion things that can go wrong along the way. This doesn't mean that there is something wrong with your eggs in months you did not conceive. We just can't expect to get pregnant in 1 month, or even 2-3 months, and if you did, that's just good fortune.

FXFXFX for this month!

[onelittlewish]

Hi Atomic, just wanted to update that I have finally ovulated. It was super crazy but thanks to e4d I didn’t have to think too much and it didn’t consume me like last time! I got my 1st pos OPK on the night of CD 15. My temp spiked on CD16 so I thought luckily I caught the surge and must have Oed but we did have another attempt that night as per our e4d plan and guess what? My temp plummeted again the next day on CD17. My temp then climbed bit by bit after that and today I have finally reached my real high temp zone. The advanced/research setting today puts my O date on CD17 but FAM hasn’t given me my cross hair yet, probably due to the high temp on CD16. I’m guessing that it will put my O date on CD18 after I get another high temp tomorrow. I did get 1x spotting on CD18 at about 3pm. I never had spotting mid cycle before. If it was ovulation spotting then FAM will be right. Either way I would have an attempt on O-1 (CD17) or O-2 (CD18). Here are my charts of the rocky mountains

4341743418

Diet wise I have really loosen up quite abit. Now it looks nothing like how I have started. It feels easy on the diet now and I am worried if it still helps me sway since I believe that diet is the most important swaying factor. I started having breakfast at around 9:30. I tried to end my eating window abit earlier but still that would give me 13hrs overnight fasting max 14hrs. I started eating sweets regularly with my meal but probably because of this I don’t crave for it like crazy this time post O. And I didn’t cut out but just cut back on meat. The only things that I tried to stick to were no snacking and within the calories limit. I am not tracking my calories or micros but my weight has been pretty stable and fluctuates between 48.5-49 (bmi 18.5-18.7). I eat abit more if it goes below and cut back abit if its going up. I could have been on the higher side of fat but should be well within the protein limit. Apart from that I still did my cardio religiously, had wine daily before bed till O and 3 coffees a day. Dh cycling everyday but unfortunately no diet change at all and regularly has his 2 steaks a week. Do you think this is still a good sway? Or should I strict things up abit diet wise if I don’t conceive this time? I felt like I am starting to throw things out of the window bit by bit :sad:

[onelittlewish]

Oh and another question…my bartholin gland flared up again (4th time this year) and this time I have been put on antibiotics for 5 days from today due to the size of the cyst and to prevent it from forming into an abscess. Would antibiotics sway blue if taken after ovulation? And how would it effect the next cycle in terms of swaying?

[atomic sagebrush]

GREAT! That's the benefit of the e4d is that even in these koo-koo for cocoa puffs kind of months you are covered no matter what.

Anywhere from 12-16 hours fasting is fine. 13/14 hours is great.

I think you're doing fabulously. At your low BMI you should just keep doing what you've been doing and maintain your weight where it is.

Most husbands won't do anything to help sway anyway. Don't worry if he doesn't change his diet much or at all - honestly the cycling is so much better proven than anything dietary for him.

I personally doubt that antibiotics sway blue anyway. It makes no sense, since we are seeing that PRObiotics are also swaying blue. Just take the medication you need to get better! It's too late to affect this month, and would be out of your system by next month anyway.

[onelittlewish]

Thank you! So FAM today finally gave me my crosshairs and put my O date on CD18, leaving my last attempt at O-2. I did lay on my back + tummy for a long time after the attempt so hopefully that will help more swimmers make it to the destination. The chances are probably slim so I wouldn't get my hopes high but never say never right? The one thing that I learnt along this journey is that there is only so much I can do to plan but eventually it is out of my control especially when aiming at "1 attempt only in fertile window". I am no longer consumed by the current diet and the other tactics are part of my lifestyle. Hopefully this is our month but if not I am more confident that I can carry on a bit longer :D

[atomic sagebrush]

Hey, an attempt O-2 is one of the best days to conceive.

I think you're on the right track! Keep up the good work!

[onelittlewish]

Hiii Atomic, I started spotting yesterday at 12DPO and period came spot on this morning. This cycle on Clomid had been tough. I had super painful bloating & swelling from 3-8DPO. My temps were significantly higher than my norms too. Feeling so bummed now. Really had my hopes up since it worked so hard to mess up my normal patterns and terrified at the thought of experiencing all the side effects again. Sigh.

What do you suggest I do for this cycle? I can take another cycle of clomid before needing a break right? Should I still try e4d? From my last three cycles ive been ovulating on the second day after 1st positive. Should I try e4d + an attempt on the second day of pos OPK instead of the 1st pos, so at least I have O-1 or O covered? Should I cut out sugar completely to improve egg quality? I don’t know what else can I do now to get pregnant :sad::sad:

[atomic sagebrush]

Well, Clomid does make a lot of side effects and can dramatically alter temps as well, unfortunately.

You can take the Clomid 5-6 months before having a break altho more and more they're having you guys take breaks more around 3-4 month mark.

If you're ready to add an attempt at positive OPK that's fine by me. Just make sure you've got the e4d pattern continuing on before and after that attempt. Some people stop at the positive OPK attempt but you should be doing the e4d all along.

If you think egg quality is an issue you'd need to not only drop sugar, but switch to whole grains instead of white refined grains, and use full fat dairy only, no skim or part skim. Up protein and fat to 50-60 g daily (not counting fruits and veg, which you don't count pro and fat in them).

[onelittlewish]

Thank you Atomic for the info, I'll do one last round on Clomid then I'll take a break. I am not sure if I have egg quality issue or not. I never did any blood test on the hormones (I think that's what you need to assess the egg quality right?). But I guess cutting sugar and white carbs will do more good than harm anyway. I eat mostly whole grains in my diet and the only white carbs are from my desserts after meal (cake, cookies etc). I don't crave for sugar that much now so I'll try to cut the dessert out entirely. Would this change have a positive impact on the coming cycle or only the eggs maturing 3 months later?

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes, they'd do blood work but in most cases what people do is simply go on the alternate diet as a preemptive strike (it's at least as good if not better for your sway, to do that version of the LE Diet). That way if there are any unknown factors you can just roll with that and get the benefits even if you don't truly have an issue.

It has an immediate result. While eggs do take "3 months to mature" they're in the process of development all the time and any change during that time period is beneficial. For all we know, they're more susceptible to damage as they are closer to ovulation so it very easily might benefit the eggs coming soon more than the eggs that are in the early stages!

[onelittlewish]

Ok I am going to give my best shot to cut out sugar and white carbs this month. I used to eat wheat toast with cheese but I don’t think that's good enough for whole grain diet? Can I eat all bran for breakfast? What are considered “fortified cereals”?

If I am doing e4d + 1 attempt (and I’d like to have that attempt on the day after pos OPK), does that mean I keep the e4d pattern and add the 1 attempt on the corresponding day? Say, if the pos opk is on CD13 and I start on the day of my last pill, then it will look like

CD7 BD
CD8 skip
CD 9 skip
CD 10 BD
CD 11 skip
CD 12 skip
CD 13 BD (pos opk)
CD 14 BD (+1 attempt)
CD 15 skip
CD 16 BD
CD 17 skip
CD 18 skip
CD 19 BD

So there will always 2 BDs in a row that’s why it’s more blue friendly correct? Would this boost the chance to conceive significantly?

And last question…I am taking 2x 1000mcg folic acid now, should I switch to folate? Would it make a difference and if so what dosage do you recommend?

[atomic sagebrush]

As long as it's whole wheat and not just "wheat" (which isn't actually whole grain) then that is fine.

Most cereals are fortified. If you look on the label and there's a lot of vitamins in it, it's fortified. I looked on the label of Kellogs brand All Bran and it was definitely fortified.

Yes, that's right. You do the e4d whenever it falls, do not change the e4d, just keep going with it before and after. Then you drop the additional attempt either at positive OPK, or if you prefer, the day after. If it lands on the same day you were due for an attempt, have TWO attempts either on the same day or the day before or after. (Note - I see a real downside with planning to have the attempt the day after positive OPK. If you were due to have an attempt that day, and end up thinking you'll have the attempt the next day instead, you will very likely be out of the fertile window with that second attempt. This is one of the reasons why I prefer you guys to do the extra attempt at the positive OPK - because if you end up needing an extra attempt because both attempts fall the same day, it will be the day after pos OPK and not TWO days after - which can easily be too late.)

To illustrate, imagine you had attempt CD 11, get positive OPK CD 13, now you are due for both your e4d attempt and your extra attempt CD 14. So you then do the extra attempt the next day, CD 15, but then by the time CD 15 rolls around, you're very likely too late to help. If you O on CD 14, it's too late, if you O on CD 13, WAY too late. I really don't think having the extra attempt the day after positive OPK is as good for this reason. Your call, but that's somethign that occurs to me as a potential pitfall.

Yes, two attempts significantly raises chances of conception not only because it's more sperm, but also because you're doubling your chances of timing an attempt at a good point in time to conceive with.

Folate is considered better, though most people can do folic acid just fine. Totally your call to make, I don't think that's why you haven't gotten pregnant but it doesn't hurt and may help to make the switch.

[onelittlewish]

I always have the thought in mind that I should add an attempt the day after pos OPK because I always have pos OPK for 2 entire days and from my history of tracking this year, 70% of the time I ovulated 2 days after pos and the other 30% on the day after. But I tried mapping out different scenarios visually and you are right, with e4d + extra attempt on first pos OPK I will have O-1 mostly covered no matter I O earlier or later, and in the worst case scenario (pos CD12 & 13, attempt CD11, 12, 14 and O on 14) the attempts will be on O-2 and O. But if I always O following the pos OPK and if we are doing 2 attempts with this pattern, wouldn't it be safer if we just do regular release and then 2 attempts on pos OPK and the next day? Then in all scenarios I will have an attempt on O-1. You know what I mean?

I am still torn about the number of attempts. I just got this "1 attempt is gold" idea and I can't shake it. Is it too fast to add extra attempt after only 1 month on e4d? How do you determine if I really need the extra attempt? How are the results with e4d +1 with diet, Clomid, exercise, coffee & alcohol? Particularly e4d+1 with Clomid? Do you think e4d+1 with Clomid will give me a better chance of having pink over 1 attempt without Clomid? The time pressure on Clomid is by far the greatest stressor for me but I don't want to jump the gun too. I am so sorry that I have so many questions and I know it's really my call to make but I am lost as to what to do.

[atomic sagebrush]

And you're basing your belief on when you ovulated on what? Temping? Because temping can only get the day of ovulation correct 1 out of 3 months in studies. It is entirely possible that you ovulated on a different day some or even all of those times. Only ultrasound and blood work done in a lab can accurately pinpoint O Day.

No, it is not safer to just have two attempts. Up above I went into a very long explanation of why this is, but to sum that up, the e4d both guards against early or delayed ovulation, and also introduces that element of randomness (since it's entirely possible to basically outwit yourself and have attempts on days you BELIEVE are good, when the day before or after may have actually been better).

The truth is, I can't determine who needs an additional attempt. But whenever someone only has, or is only doing, 3 months Clomid, I do first month nothing, second month e4d, third month e4d plus one unless there is a very good reason not to do that. Look, I'm the one who noticed the one attempt swaying pink in the first place. I have had ten years to watch people doing all sorts of sways, and I promise, one attempt not only is NOT gold, it's not a magic bullet, or a sure thing, or any such thing. That is why we invented the e4d and the e4d plus one is because the one attempt was a) not perfect still yielding plenty of boys and b) cut odds of conception by so much and c) is very stressful for people in that control freaky way which may sway blue anyway.

Clomid is better than one attempt. This is because it is always possible for one attempt to mess up, not work, backfire somehow, etc With Clomid, all you have to do is pop a pill for 5 days and immediately you get a MINIMUM of 3-5% solid pink sway and probably more (since the stats that show Clomid gives girls 3-5% more of the time are in people who were not even swaying, and in fact were likely doing lots of things to boost fertility, all of which would have swayed blue) It would be a big step in the wrong direction to give up Clomid (sure thing, can't go wrong) to keep one attempt (hard work to pull off, and easy to get it wrong)!

[onelittlewish]

:agree::agree: thank you Atomic it’s super helpful. Yes I based my O date only on OPK and temping and I always thought that you can most accurately pinpoint O with opk + temping! Good to know, now I can stop over analyzing my charts. I can get 6 cycles of Clomid but I am not comfortable to max it out. And Im having a hard time keeping the weight on again so i am convinced that e4d + an extra attempt on pos opk is what i really really really need now.

Technical question, if I get a pos opk at night, do we add an attempt on that night or the next day? I usually get pos early in the morning and the pos will last last for two full days or I get it later in the day and it last till the noon of the day after.

[atomic sagebrush]

Well, it's true, you CAN "most accurately" pinpoint ovulation with OPK and temping - but temping is still only accurate 1 out of 3 times to pinpoint ovulation, and we have wrong OPK constantly. (Note - Above I wrote MONTHS when I meant DAYS). Even highly trained experts, with cutting edge technology, could not accurately get their ovulation day correct any better than 33% of the time in studies using temping. That is why for natural family planning methods for birth control, you have to wait three days to have unprotected sex again - because one temp, or even two, can be inaccurate and it's only once you can be certian that temps are actually high that it's ok to have sex again.

:agree: fine to go to e4d plus one now especially if you're having trouble keeping the weight on.

Add the attempt whenever it makes most sense to you. If it's that night, that's fine, though sperm count will be somewhat lowered you'll still be adding SOME swimmers. If the next day, that's fine too (and sperm count will have recovered by that point). I like you guys to retain flexibility because we have no idea what is the "best" way and the "best" way likely varies by person by month anyway.

[onelittlewish]

Hi Atomic, I am at 13dpo today and my temp dropped below coverline this morning so I was expecting my period but nothing showed up yet. I tested again this morning and in the afternoon both came back negative. This is the same test that I got my positive with my second son at 8dpo so I am sure they are pretty accurate. Maybe my LP is longer this cycle? I guess only time will tell...

I have had the weirdest cycle this month. We had our e4d attempts on CD7 & CD11. Then I went to dr for a check up on CD12 because I had large clots during last menstruation. She checked my uterus lining and dominant follicle size, 0.81 and 2cm respectively and she said everything looked great. I got my +OPK the next day on CD13 so we had our additional attempt. Then the next day I got suspected yeast infection. My dr said it's ok to have sex and I didn't want to miss the chance so we had our e4d attempt on CD14. Then after that my bartholin gland flared up again and we couldn't continue our e4d. My temp showed that I O'd on CD15. Then at 6dpo I started spotting. First pinkish creamy discharge then bright red watery blood. On 8dpo I was worried that it was caused from inflammation so I went in for another check up. Doc took some sample for culture test and said it's def not menstruation and most probably from the inflammation asked me to keep observing. When I got home I bled again and there was bright red blood on my underwear about 10cm in length. Then the spotting stopped after that. On the morning of 11dpo I spotted again but just 1x wipe. I tested everyday from 10dpo and all BFN. If any of the spotting is from implantation, I should be getting at least a faint positive by now right? Here is my chart for easier reference..

43446

Can clomid cause mid cycle spotting? Or my weight? I lost a pound in the first two weeks and another pound in the third week. Then past few days I started eating whatever I want and gained back a pound (so quite some sugary and white carbs). Now my bmi is 18.3 and I know it's bad..but I am eating 3 meals a day and I have shortened night fast to 13 hours and adding whole eggs and eating meat with every meal and loads of fruits and bread. I still have trouble keeping the weight on. What should I do? Should I still try to cut out sugar and white carbs for the sake of my egg quality and eat more fat/protein instead? Can my weight the problem to conceive, even though I am ovulating on time? Thank you so much...I have been very confused as to what is going on with my body and it's just so hard not to stress.

[atomic sagebrush]

First let's talk about the bleeding - I agree with your doctor that's from irritation caused by the cyst and not implantation. We hardly ever see real implantation bleeding, it is nearly always from something around the cervix or the VJ. The increased bleeding after the doctor's visit indicates that it was something vaginal that was aggravated in the exam and then resolved over time. I really do not believe that this had anything to do with the Clomid (though Clomid can cause midcycle spotting, I don't think that's what was happening here.)

I suspect based on temps your period will come later today or tomorrow. It is also possible that your temp today is a one off, and you might see it go back up, but I agree we shoudl be seeing positive tests in that case. It is also possible that you actually have only just now ovulated and youll see a big rise tomorrow that makes the last rise look like small potatoes. We sometimes see this sort of "stairstep" pattern where people think they ovulated but didn't, and then they'll have another dip (which makes them think AF is on the rise) and then another rise and it's only after 2 or even 3 of these "steps" that we see ovulation has actually happened. (my money is on AF coming, though).

Yes, your weight can absolutely be a problem. The Clomid may be keeping you ovulating even at too low a weight. You MUST eat more to stop losing weight. Meat is not a good way to keep weight on as it's pretty low cal and high protein, so you quickly go over on protein and have eaten barely any cals. I would advise you to choose other options instead of meat to add nutrients - things with both protein and calories like beans, nuts, grains, and dairy foods are going to be more cals for less protein.

We were only doing the alternate diet as a preemptive strike, so if you need to increase calories to compensate for that please do so. Would I load up on sugar? No, but there are many many foods you could eat instead of a bunch of sugar and white carbs to keep weight on.

[onelittlewish]

Omg omg i think i got a suuuuuuper faint line this morning. My temp is still low this morning so I thought af is def on the way but when i checked my cervix it is still super high and tightly closed so i thought why not test again. It came up within minutes. My jaws dropped literally. This is about the same color I got 8dpo with my son and now i am 14dpo with out of the norm bbt…mixed feeling now super thrilled to the idea of “maybe i am actually pregnant” but more scared and worried. I have sent the pic to my dr and she asked me to go for a follow up checkup on sunday. I guess we will know for sure by then!! Praying for a sticky bean…

43454


43453

[atomic sagebrush]

We have had a lot of very faint positives that are actually negatives over the past couple years. I think they changed something about the process of making the tests to make negatives have these darn ghost lines. I'm hoping it darkens up, but unless you ovulated later than you think I would not have much expectation that you're actually pregnant this month. FXFXFX!

[onelittlewish]

I think you are right. I started bleeding mid morning and I believe period is on the way. I never got any sort of indent or evap line on this before and I got these lines on two tests! These false positives are cruel. But I knew down there that something is not right because the temp is off. At least no more guessing and waiting here. Was super devastated but now ready to move on.

I need to get my weight up i think it really is a problem. I’ll try to eat more brown rice and dairy and stay away from sugar and white carbs as much as possible. I did pretty well last month but it was my son's bday last week so I did have quite some junk food and cakes after ovulation...will do my best! I have clomid for another cycle left, do you think i should use it or take a break and try without it? I didn't experience much side effects from clomid last month and since my lining looks ok, I am comfortable to take it again but would like to hear what you think?

There is nothing else I can do or change right? Just try to gain some weight at least back to bmi 18.5 and continue what I am doing: the ed4+1, coffee, alcohol, folic acid 1600mcg and 6x cardio/week?

[atomic sagebrush]

Because your weight is so low you have more leeway with the sugar and white carbs than if you were heavier. Your body actually can handle them better. So if you need those things now and then to help keep weight on that's fine. I just don't want you to do a 180 and start stuffing yourself with gummy worms or whatever (I have seen so many people do this, and it is a mistake.)

Yes it appears to be happenign across several different brands and in some cases, these faint seeming-positives have gone on for weeks. For now, it's best for everyone to wait till there is a CLEAR positive and not go off faint lines because something is up with the tests.

I'm fine with you taking Clomid if you'd like, just want to be sure you're having 50-60 g fat a day (not counting pro and fat in fruit and veg) and also not taking fiber.

You may want to cut back on exercise to five days a week.

[onelittlewish]

Ok great to hear! I don't eat candies or have sugary drinks anyway so that's a lot easier to follow. My sugar and white carbs usually come from occasional cakes, bread, pasta, noodle, pizza that sort of stuff. We don’t have much options with whole grain so occasionally i would have those. I tried to put my "base meal plan" in my fitness pal to see how much i've been eating and i am actually eating quite alot. Not counting fruit and veggies, I am eating about 55g protein and 62g of fat and with fruit and veg its about 58g protein and 65g fat. Approximately 1700cal a day at least, if my weight is dropping I eat more on top of that. Here is what my day usually looks like

breakfast at 7-8am : whole grain bread with peanut butter + 2 egg whites (sometimes whole egg) with a slice of cheese + 1 portion of fruit
lunch at 11 and dinner before 6pm: 1/2 cup of brown rice, lots of veggies with green peas, small portion of chicken or fish, greek yoghurt with frozen berries, 1 portion of fruit

2-3 cups of coffee with almond milk and a glass of wine before bed. Does that look OK? Should I switch my almond milk to 2 cups of whole fat milk for more nutrition and calories? I used to drink quite a lot of milk but I have cut it out entirely since I started the diet in July. I am not sure how the hormones in the fresh milk impact swaying, or is it ok within limit?

:agree: will cut down exercise to 5 days and will take my last cycle of Clomid day 3-7. My temp is low like last few days and bleeding like normal period with clots yet i still got 2 pos tests in the afternoon. It is unbelievable!!!

[onelittlewish]

And another question, can too much alcohol and coffee be a problem? and how much would be too much? Before I started diet, I drank at most 1 cup of coffee a day and rarely any alcohol. Now 3 cups of coffee and 1-2 glasses wine/shot of rum. This is still within safe limits right?

[atomic sagebrush]

:agree: occasionally all that stuff is fine for you.

I am slightly confused where all the fat is coming from but I'll assume it's portion sizes and cooking fats.

Let's go to whole eggs 4-6 per week and one serving of full fat dairy daily above and beyond what you're having. You can compensate by dropping the almond milk if you like or just add it on the top of it. This will probably bump up your fat intake over the limits but it seems to me that you need an extra bit of fat. You may want to cut portion size somewhat on the peanut butter and then whatever cooking fats you're using to compensate. Something about the type of fat in milk and eggs is really good at boosting fertility.

All that having been said do use your judgement here and aim at small, gradual changes rather than now adding in a LOT of white carbs plus all the extra fat without compensating for it elsewhere. You do still want to aim at the general ballpark of 60-65 g fat even with the whole eggs and the full fat dairy, so you will prbably need to make slight cutbacks elsewhere so you don't go too far the other direction.

Milk and other dairy is fine within limits. The most important thing is the limits, but some people just have higher needs for fat and calories than others do and so in those cases we need to move beyond the limits (slightly!) to keep things working as they should be.

[onelittlewish]

I was surprised too...here is the breakdown of the 60+ grams of fat

1tbsp olive oil 13.5g fat (for cooking so just estimation)
200g greek yoghurt 18g fat
30g 1 slice of cheese 11g fat
1tbsp unsweetened peanut butter 16g
80g chicken thigh/fish 3g
600ml almond milk 6g

That's about 50g of protein. If I add whole eggs and milk the fat will shoot up to 80g of fat and 63g of protein so I think i'll drop almond milk entirely, cut out PB when I am having the whole egg and cut down the portion size of PB on the days when I have egg whites only. That will give me about 65g of fat and 55g of protein per day, sounds good?

We are in the middle of raining season now so hubby cannot cycle as often or even not at all. Abit sad that we can't have this strong sway factor but I am not stressing too much since there is nothing I can do and hopefully it will give us a bit more healthy sperms to conceive.

Those false positives really hit me hard. At one point I just wanted to give up everything and go back to what I normally do just to get pregnant. Now I have a clearer direction as to how to continue I will pull myself together and try my best. Thank you for your support as always, couldn't have done it without you.

[atomic sagebrush]

Ok, what are you using to determine these fat intakes? Because something about this is not adding up. I went to my cupboard and got out the similar products and here's what I have, the measurements are ballpark based on the package but are close enough so we can see your nutrient data is VERY skewed and you are probably not getting anywhere near that much fat:

Olive oil - same, but do be aware that this could be something to cut back on without compromising much, if you need to get less fat from someplace you can use half that amount in most cases
greek yogurt- 170 g greek yogurt only has 6 g of fat, if yours really has that much try a different brand
1 28 g slice of cheese - 9 g fat
1 T peanut butter, I have two different brands here and both of them have only 8 g fat per T
I don't have chicken or fish with nutrient data on it

I suspect you have more fat to work with than you think. If you're using My fitness Pal to track your nutrients instead of what is on the package then I think you're getting some sort of misinformation on the results in the app. (Like, possibly you're using the 2T peanut butter serving data when you're having only 1 T that sort of thing)

[onelittlewish]

434594346043461

I looked for the exact products and they match the nutrition facts on the label. These are the data for my yoghurt, cheese and peanut butter. You are right about PB I got the unit wrong! So 1Tbsp is about 22g and thats about 12g fat instead of 16g. But the other two looks right? or maybe these types got higher fat content? I am confused too. Should I then add more fat? like putting butter on my bread and keep my PB portion on top of adding the milk and the whole eggs?

[atomic sagebrush]

If that's really what is on the label, then I trust it. I know there are a couple brands of the Greek yogurt that seem "denser" than others so you might want to look into some other ones, and the same with cheese, to see if there's one where you can pick up a few grams of fat here and a few there to give you some wiggle room.

Or, if you like those particular products stick with them and then just up the fat intake slightly, but I'd not go beyond 65 g.

[onelittlewish]

Ok I will monitor my fat intake and make sure it hits 60-65g a day.

Something totally irrelevant...and not sure if I can post the question here. Last night the idea of going HT popped up in my mind. When I started swaying I was told that PGD is not available here and so I thought I'd do my best to sway naturally. Then yesterday I was quite down and I thought I'd ask myself. They said that they can do the IVF procedure here but not the PGD, so they would need to send the frozen embryo to another city for PGD. Have you heard of this kind of procedure? Does it have good success rate? I am not convinced that I need to go down that road yet but I also don't know if I get another girl would I regret the rest of my life not doing HT.

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes of course you can ask that here - we don't worry too much about where people post.

My thinking is, if HT is an option, do it sooner rather than later. Too many people decide to sway, end up with an opposite, then do IVF. It's better to just do IVF because odds of success depend so dramatically on age.

Now, as for sending the embryo to a different city to test, I do think people do that sometimes. I can't say about the success rates, if you're in the US you should check the SART website and they'll have more info about the various clinics.

[onelittlewish]

The truth is, I have almost no confidence in my sway now...apart from my super low weight everything else looks more and more like how I got my boys. I know there is no way to tell whether a sway is good or not and I know these are the necessary changes to get pregnant but after knowing that HT is perhaps an option, I think I went from ok with another boy to I really just want a girl because there is a way to get one, if you know what I mean…

At the moment I am looking into the cost and browsing the HT board to learn more about the and will talk to hubby later to see if he is open to the idea. We don't have options here as there is only 1 IVF clinic here locally. It is a national one but I have no clue how good they are and with covid traveling abroad is out of the question. What if they cannot yield good embryos...what if the embryos are damaged during the transportation...what if we don't get any female embryos at all...a lot of question marks and concerns that I don't know where to begin. I guess I'll talk to hubby first and if he is onboard I will ask around for more info.

As to this cycle, I think I will give it one last shot since I started taking clomid already. The one thing that I am having a hard time to decide is whether I should do the more girl friendly e4d or the more pregnant friendly e4d+1. I am leaning towards e4d+1 since we have not decided whether we will do ivf? So hard.

[atomic sagebrush]

What you need to understand about swaying though is that a) what you DON'T see is bigger than what you do see, and this misleads people into feeling like they're not doing anything when they're in fact doing a lot, and b) you don't know why you got boys in the first place. It very well may have been the case that you got boys when you were fairly likely to get girls - imagine a 60-40 breakdown - and then you just fell into the 40% range. Or maybe it was 50-50, or even 40-60%. (This is, of course, the range where most people naturally fall anyway, which is why most people have both boys and girls without thinking about it, without even making any obvious changes.) This doesn't mean you should then take everything to the absolute limit because then we'll see you unable to conceive. It is entirely, entirely likely that you were pretty pink-friendly

(some of us have boy after boy for 20+ years - WE are more set for boys. A person who has two boys in two years doesn't know that they are set for boys or for girls, and if their lifestyle is already quite pink friendly then it may be that small changes are truly all that's needed!)

What we need to do is look at what has worked for most people, most of the time, and do that. You have gone too far in terms of weight loss and so we need to turn the dial back a little the opposite direction, but doing that doesn't make you immediately blue friendly. There is a LOT of wiggle room between being unable to conceive due to low weight and swaying blue. Try to keep in mind that this is what I have everyone do, 60-65 g fat is still very much in the range of what I consider a fine LE Diet, and if I saw people getting boys doing what I'm suggesting you do, I wouldn't be suggesting it. (The truth is, I see far more people who insist on staying uberstrict on diet getting boys, because they are invariably such control freaks, and also because when they don't up protein and fat intake, they end up eating gobs of carbs instead which can raise their blood sugar over the course of time).

But yes, absolutely as long as IVF is an option do look into that. I agree that there are some very serious logistical issues doing IVF in the time of Covid (and honestly, even NOT in the time of Covid - IVF is a grueling process that requires a lot of scheduling and micromanaging of lots of details)

I would talk to your husband first. If he is on board, you may want to do e4d again because there's a light at the end of the tunnel in terms of not conceiving and you'd probably want to have the best chance of a girl. If not, go to e4d plus one.

[onelittlewish]

I think I understand what you are trying to say. The fact that I am always full, never starving and eating a good portion of healthy food and yet still loosing weight should indicate that at least something has changed in my body. I added back of things to help me to conceive so I am alot alot alot more laid back towards the whole diet thing and that makes me a little nervous. But maybe that's good a thing in the end because I don't sweat the small stuff anymore. I think we will still aim at getting pregnant this month because this will be my absolute last cycle of Clomid and we don't know what the future will look like with covid. From what you have said, I think my sway is not that bad and deserves a shot after all these months of hard work.

My doctor suggested me to take a supplement called OVACARE to boost my fertility 1 tab a day. What do you think? Do I need it and does it sway blue?

Inositol (Myo-Inositol) 100mg
Para Aminobenzoic Acid (PABA) 12.5mg
Vitamin E (Acetate) 12.5mg
Elemental Zinc – 10mg
Elemental Iron – 9mg
Vitamin B1 Nitrate – 5mg
Vitamin B6 – 5mg
Vitamin B2– 2.5mg
Elemental Manganese – 1.5mg
Elemental Copper – 750mcg
Vitamin B12– 500mcg
Vitamin A -375mcg (1250 I.U.)
Elemental Selenium – 100mcg
Elemental Chromium – 50mcg
Elemental Iodine – 50mcg
Vitamin D3 – 12.5mcg (500 I.U.)

[atomic sagebrush]

Please do not take that supplement. You do not need it and it absolutely may sway blue. Additionally, those have a MASSIVE dose of B vitamins in them and too many B Vitamins can delay or even stop ovulation, in addition to drastically shortening LP.

Doctors throw these things at people because it is easy for them. They let you think they're doing something but what they're doing is worse than nothing. If you think you're depleted in nutrients I have ways to boost your nutrient intake without affecting your sway or your cycle, so just let me know.

[atomic sagebrush]

And if you're NOT understanding what I'm saying, please ask me to clarify. I am happy to do that, but I'm not sure if you are understanding or you're not.

[onelittlewish]

:agree: i didn’t think i needed those but i had to ask to make sure. I think i am ok for now, still a bit nervous from the uncertain nature of swaying but nothing like before when i was entirely consumed by self doubt. CD 7 today will keep you updated hopefully with a BFP :luck:

[onelittlewish]

Quick question...can I do femara after clomid if I don't conceive this month? I am battling between doing e4d or e4d +1 at pos OPK because hubby is not cycling and I am adding more fat through eggs and milk, maybe I will have a better chance to conceive with e4d this month? But this is my last month on Clomid so I should do my best to conceive while medicated? Or should I just flip a coin :worry:

I am at CD10 and we had 1 bd on CD8 and will do another one tomorrow on CD11. I think I will ovulate sometime next week.

[atomic sagebrush]

You'd need to take at least a month off.

Yes, just flip a coin. This is just one of those things I can't know for sure and I have to leave the ball in your court.

[onelittlewish]

Just did and coin says e4d only :nails: i guess then ill stop using the opk since it’s of no benefit right? and continue e4d until O confirmed with Bbt and will stop temping after that too. If this month is not successful then will continue e4d on the break month then see what happens. Sounds like a good plan?

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes, sounds like a good plan!

Whether to keep using the OPK is up to you. Some people like to use them anyway as it gives them more information about when O may come. But you're right, you don't need them.

[onelittlewish]

I went to pick up the lab result today and I did have both yeast infection and bacterial vaginosis last cycle right after I ovulated. They did go away on their own after a week or two but I wonder what might be the cause? I didn't do anything out of the norm...hormonal?

Anyway, since I went in I asked for a scan and since I wasn't doing OPK I was totally caught by surprise that I have a dominant follicle around 22-24mm (CD12) and will probably ovulate in a day or two. We had our e4d on CD8 and CD11, so our next attempt will be on CD14.

If I ovulate on CD13, then I guess the CD11 can cover? But if I ovulate on CD14, will the batch from CD11 still be viable? If not, would we still have a chance with the batch from CD14 (at night)? If I ovulate later then that then CD14 should cover, I am just abit concerned with the O-3 and O case since yesterday (CD11) was only semi fertile (if that's a thing)? Watery CM and semi open cervix but I did not get up after the attempt just went to sleep. Today there is lots of EWCM and cervix for sure is open. Hubby only cycled 1x this cycle so his sperm should be healthier?

[atomic sagebrush]

It is very common to have outbreaks of yeast and BV at that point in the cycle. In fact many people will have a flare of these things several times a year, and it is possible to have mild flares without having realized it in the past. There's no "cause" the way you're thinking of it. These little organisms live inside of us all the time and it's only when they overgrow that they cause problems. After having ovulated, your pH is high, and additionally if you've been having sex that can make your pH higher too, and it simply makes it more likely that you have an overgrowth of things that are there all the time. Extremely common.

Yes you can be covered still from the CD 11 attempt on CD 14, and also you can still have a chance from the CD 14 attempt. That;s the way the e4d works - if there's anything left from the earlier attempt, it will have fertilized the egg before the later attempt can capacitate, and if there isn't, then the later attempt can have a chance.

You can't tell how fertile you are based on those things. Tons of people myself included have conceived with NO visible CM and not even knowing they'd ovulated. So don't read anything into that.

If you want better odds of conception just add an attempt (I'd have you do it today but that's your call). Don't sit around debating with yourself. Either add the attempt or stick with the pattern. Don't try to jockey the attempt around, don't spend any more time thinking about it than you already have done. Just add an attempt or don't, without endless amounts of mental debate about the pros and the cons.

[onelittlewish]

Thank you for clarifying, makes sense to me! So there is nothing I can do to prevent yeast infection or BV?

I’ve decided to stick to e4d this cycle and that’s why I didn’t want to do OPK to complicate things and maybe I shouldn’t have gone in for a scan but I cannot resist to take a peek how my eggs are doing lol. But good to know that there is still a chance even if the attempts fall on O-3 and O. Good news is that lining still looks great with the triple lines and maybe I am ovulating this month earlier because my body is responding to the diet changes I am making? I want to give the girl friendly pattern a few more tries before moving on to adding attempt.

My cycle 1&2 on clomid had been suffering but 3&4 super comfortable. Maybe my body is immune to it in a good way. So I can do probably a few more medicated cycles after the break as long as my body can tolerate. Thank you again :awe:

[atomic sagebrush]

Certainly there are things you can do to lower your chances of getting yeast or BV flares (like eating garlic, taking probiotics, cutting back on sugar and white carbs, avoiding homemade bread for a while, wearing only all cotton underwear that is washed in hot water, sleeping overnight without any undies or pants on, avoiding thong underwear, tight pants and pantyhose/stockings, being very careful about cleanliness with sex toys and also using lubes that do not cause any irritation, that sort of thing. you can even use a condom with sex, but obviously that's not going to help TTC!!)

But that is not the same thing as "a lack of garlic is the CAUSE of yeast" or whatever because plenty of people don't eat garlic and don't get yeast, and plenty of people do everything "right" and still get BV (and the same is true for all the other things I mentioned above). The CAUSE is overgrowth of fungi and bacteria, and sometimes the overgrowth of one can trigger the overgrowth of the other, since the vaginal environment changes as a result of the overgrowth.

Great news on the lining!! I can't speculate about the other stuff, just that things are looking great and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!

[onelittlewish]

Thanks for the info! I am not doing the no no things apart from eating lots of home made bread because that's the only way I know it's really whole grain but I had been doing that for years so I don't think that's the cause (why does this cause flare up though?), maybe just bad months. But because I had some sort of flare ups two months in a row right around ovulation we couldn't carry on e4d after O.

I had terrible cramps and bloating and backache since yesterday afternoon and temp dipped today so FX that O will happen today on time and our attempt tonight will catch the egg!!

Diet wise I have gained back the lost weight and now being held steady at bmi 18.5 after the few tweaks on diet and reducing ex by a day without needing a lot of extra sugar and white carbs so I am really happy about that! And since I am so full all day long I have to shorten my overnight fasting more to 12 hours so I have more time between meals to have some appetite. Will keep you updated :cheer:

[atomic sagebrush]

The reason why homemade breads can cause yeast is because not all the yeast is killed in the guts, and so it can grow coming from your bowel area and colonize your VJ(while this sounds terrible, this is not unusual or even a bad thing). It's not a sure thing as you point out, you've had homemade bread in the past, but just something that can act as an encouragement for yeast overgrowth.

As long as you're sure you have ovulated you don't need to continue after O. Some people think they Oed when they didn't which is why we do it that way.

[onelittlewish]

Interesting to know! Temp spiked this morning by 0.4c so I guess O happened on time and now into the tww!

Wishing you a jolly Christmas and may your heart and home be filled with all the joy this festive season brings!

[atomic sagebrush]

Thank you so very much!! I wish you all the same, and a wonderful 2022!!

[onelittlewish]

Hi Atomic...need your insights please because I am driving myself crazy! As you may have read from my other post, I got a ghost line 10dpo, then neg HPT 11-13dpo. Temp also dropping slightly day by day but still 0.2c above coverline but with the trend and neg tests I think my period should show up soon today or tomorrow.

What confuses me is that I used OPK from 11dpo after I got a neg hpt because I know sometimes they can pick up hcg when it’s too low to be detected by HPT and surprise surprise I got almost as dark 11-12dpo and as dark today on 13dpo. It doesn’t make sense to me that the positive is from hcg because last time with DS2 when I got pos opk my hpt tests were quite dark and yet today I only got stark white neg. Then I started wondering if I actually ovulated? Or is it from another surge before period? I know only time will tell but I can’t stop wondering what is going on

Here is my chart and my pos OPK from today

43497
43498

[atomic sagebrush]

First off, you have it backwards with the OPK. They CANNOT detect HCG prior to a pregnancy test and anyone saying they do is spreading misinformation. While OPK can detect a pregnancy, it is only after an actual pregnancy test would have given you a positive. There is NO POINT to using OPK for a pregnancy test unless you have missed a period already and are out of pregnancy tests. Pregnancy tests are the only thing to use during the 2WW because OPK are not reliable.

The reason why OPK are not reliable during this time is because it is very common to get a false positive OPK around the secondary estrogen surge (6-8 DPO) and also a false positive just prior to AF coming. and even more common than a false positive is a very dark test that doesn't go fully pos at this time. So all you've done is detected that rise in hormones that occurs just before AF arrives and have gotten upset over something that was based in bad information.

Or, think of it this way - if OPK worked better than pregnancy tests, what would the point of pregnancy tests even be? Wouldn't they just sell one test for both functions? But they don't, because it does not work to do that, and whoever told you otherwise was sadly mistaken.

If your pregnancy test is negative the odds are all but 100% that you aren't pregnant, unless you ovulated later than you thought you did. Looking at your chart, it does seem possible to me that you ovulated later because we still see a bit of lower temps and then a much bigger and more consistent rise later.

I will say this, though, looking at your chart (and forgive me if we've already talked about this but it's important) you need to continue with BD after you think you've ovulated. I'm assuming where you have marked "PM" is where you had sex (and not the # mark??) but if so, you went a long time without having an attempt. If ovulation took place later you were not covered for a full week with no attempts. One of the main reasons we do e4d is to guard against delayed O, and it doesn't work if you stop having attempts.

Now, it may be something happened, hubby had to leave for work or something like that, I will go back and reread this thread, but I just wanted to mention that before I did as that jumps out to me - both the delayed rise and the lack of attempts.

[atomic sagebrush]

I'm assuming that the lack of attempts the week after O was due to the disruption in your vaginal flora this month, but in future if at all possible I would continue with attempts after O.

[onelittlewish]

Temp dropped and got my period this morning. 13 days LP just a day longer than my usual LP so my O can’t be later than a day or two? And I thought my last attempt would have covered that but I might be wrong.

Yes we couldn’t have attempts post O for the last three cycles because every month a day or two after O my bartholin gland swell up. It is partially blocked but my doc says surgery is not needed as long as it can shrink on its own. That’s why we couldn’t have sex for a long time because it usually goes away entirely only right before my period arrives. This time we tried having sex when it didn’t pain but still there i started to bleed. So I don’t know what to do about that too…

My weight is steady I have gained abit over the holidays. We were travelling so I was off diet for about a week. I will take a break from clomid and do e4d and try to continue post o. I am just upset and defeated and I think ive tried my best but I just don’t know what else can i do or not do anymore.

[onelittlewish]

Yea I understand now, pregnancy can cause positive OPK but positive OPK doesn't always mean pregnancy. I only had 1 experience with my last son when I got the ghost line at 8DPO (too early i know...) and took an OPK to see if that was really a line or was i hallucinating and got an pos opk. This time I used it for the same reason and was happy that I saw a positive too with the ghost line. Then when I got neg preg test I thought maybe the level wasn't high enough or the urine was too diluted. Then after a few days of neg tests I knew I was out but just clutching at straws. Temp dropped further this morning and period came right on time.

We couldn't continue BD post O (for the past 3 months when I was doing e4d and e4d+1) because my bartholin gland always flare up a day or two post ovulation. The lump makes it uncomfortable while walking and sitting and very painful to have sex. My doctor said it's partially blocked but surgery is not needed as long as the cyst can shrink on its own. With that being said, if it recurs every month after O there is no way for me to guard against later ovulation. This cycle my LP is 13 days so just a day longer than my normal 12 days LP, does it mean even if I ovulated later it can't be more than a day or two, and my last attempt should have covered that? I might be wrong.

So this is my 5th month attempting and 6 full months on diet. We were travelling in the last week and I was entirely off diet, only tried to eat less meat but eating normally otherwise. I gained about half kilo so now my bmi is at a healthier range 18.5-18.7. I will continue to do e4d and try to keep the attempt longer. Coffee & alcohol & exercise. I will take a break from Clomid as well. Can Clomid reduce my chance of conceiving in anyway? What else should I do/not do?

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes since your period arrived on time then it's more likely you Oed when you thought.

Oh gosh yes that is a complication, but the good news is since you did ovulate when you thought it doesn't matter anyway. It just wasn't the month unfortunately. If you wanted we could talk about doing "turkey baster method" in the 2WW in an e4d pattern.

I get that you understand, just to stave off any confusion for anyone else who still thinks that can work, the positive OPK with your son wasn't caused by pregnancy, it was just from hormones rising 6-8 DPO. You can't get a legit pregnancy-caused positive OPK usually till 14 DPO at the soonest.

What we can do is go to e4d plus one more attempt at positive OPK if you're ready to do that. I don't want you causing yourself injury having attempts past when you are able so we'll just give that a try.

Clomid can cause lowered odds of conception over time but as long as you take a month off the effects are mitigated.

[onelittlewish]

Yea...it's no biggie but just really annoying and unfortunately I think it might be hormonal since it kept recurring at the same time in my cycle. Fortunately, judging from my LP I think I ovulated pretty much on time after pos OPK.

Can you tell me more about the turkey baster method? It is at home artificial insemination right?

Last month my hubby only cycled 2x but they were right before our attempts in my fertile window. Do you thing that could lower the sperm count too much? Should I stop him from cycling entirely or at least not right before our attempts? Should we do that before adding in attempts?

I will definitely not use OPK during the TWW now knowing for sure that I can get positive preg or not...and I will try to test only after missed period. I still couldn't believe that I got ghost lines two times in a row. Seeing a line then gone was much more heartbreaking than seeing stark white negatives :sad:

[atomic sagebrush]

I have an article about the turkey baster method here (and ignore the warnings, I was trying to stop people from using it as a sway tactic, not for general conception. It can be a good technique if people have some physical barrier that prevents conception)

https://www.genderdreaming.com/forum/gender-swaying-general-discussion/2598-how-do-tbm-why-you-probably-shouldnt-do-gender-swaying.html?highlight=turkey+baster+method

I ~doubt~ that cycling twice did any real harm. If you can get him to skip it, that's fine, but many times men just need to do their "stuff" in order to keep going with swaying and TTC.

Regardless, I think it's time for you to add an attempt. I feel the frustration coming through, and to my way of thinking that means it's time to make some adjustments to boost chances of conception. You don't HAVE to, but it's just what I would do on your behalf at this point.

[onelittlewish]

Ok thank you! I'll have that ready as plan B in case we couldn't continue e4d post O.

Actually, I feel more relaxed this month since I am not on Clomid anymore I don't have the pressure that I MUST conceive this month. I think I should add attempt too but still hesitant because 1) I am not on Clomid anymore, sadly and 2) I was off diet & exercise for a week and I did gain some weight and my body is still holding onto those weight even after a week back to my previous diet. I ate a lot of sugar and white carbs too during the holiday so I thought I need more time to get back on track? I am willing to try e4d for another month or two if the result is more promising than 2 attempts but I am also worried that I'd be wasting time if I simply can't conceive with 1 attempt and that the longer I am on the diet the less "shock" effect it will have on my body, if that's a thing?

[atomic sagebrush]

e4d isn't the one attempt really though. It has much better chances of conception

Please don't worry about time on diet having a negative effect. After all, pink mamas eat lightly their entire lives and still conceive girls. We once wondered if there could possibly be a "on diet too long" and that really hasn't panned out.

[onelittlewish]

But e4d is technically still one attempt in the fertile window? When you advised me to add attempt, you were asking me to move from e4d to e4d+1 attempt at pos OPK, and e4d+1 attempt = 2 attempts in fertile window, correct?

So far I did
Month 1: 1 attempt +clomid
Month 2: e4d + clomid
Month 3: e4d+1attempt at pos OPK + clomid
Month 4: e4d + clomid

My gut feeling says sticking to e4d this month because all my sway tactics have loosened up in the last weeks. Maybe the loosening and my weight gain will help me to conceive and if not, will move to e4d+1 attempt at pos opk thereafter.

What is your advise on using clomid/femara after a break? Should I use it again if I can get it? If so, how long should the break be and should I get clomid or femara?

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes, it's one attempt in the fertile window but it is NOT one attempt because e4d, since it continues on before and after when a person THINKS they ovulated, protects against early and late ovulation. Additionally, because it randomizes the day in the fertile window that the attempt falls, it eliminates the mistake that people make when for months on end, they continue having an attempt on a certain day (say, o-2 or at positive OPK), when they might have a better chance the day before that or the day after. Thus it has better odds of conception than the sway tactic called "one attempt".

I'm not trying to be confusing, e4d is really not one attempt in the way we use the term (even tho it IS one attempt in the fertile window) and it has better odds of conception. I have to be a stickler on terminology because otherwise I would not be able to understand what you guys are telling me.

I'm fine with you doing just straight e4d this month.

You would restart the Clomid or Femara after a one or two month break. The pink effects for sure last one month, possibly two. One month is ~probably~ enough time off but we just honestly don't know for sure and it may be that two is better. Just don't have the data to say. Most people take only one month off though.

[atomic sagebrush]

I had posted a better and more thorough explanation of why e4d is better chances of conception than one attempt earlier, I'll quote it since I had to be brief today.




There are two main reasons why e4d is better than one attempt for conception. First of all, in these unpredictable months, you will ALWAYS be in with one attempt in the fertile window regardless of when you O. Even in the "worst case" scenario of O-3 and O Day attempt, that is still one attempt because if there was anything left from the O-3 attempt, it would already have fertilized the egg before the O Day shot could capacitate and make it to the egg, and if there isn't, then the O Day shot will have a chance at it. you are guarded against both early and late ovulation, you're guarded against false positive OPK and false negative ones, plus it also helps keep your husband happier.

And the second reason is a little more hard to understand so please feel free to ask for clarity if you need it. But we don't KNOW that first positive OPK is going to be the best day to conceive with one attempt for you, or at least for you in any given month. Maybe the day before first pos is better. Maybe the day after. Maybe 2 days after. If we carry on forever always having the same day of attempt, if a different day is better for you (or would be better in any given month, this absolutely can vary) then you may go on and on having sex on a day that was never particularly ideal. So both in terms of ensuring you have an attempt even with early or late O, and adding this element of randomness so we don't get locked into just one day forever and ever in case that day wasn't ideal for you, it's much better for chances of conception. Even O-3 and O Day is not worse chances of conception than just one attempt, because there's so much unpredictability with OPK and sooo many people end up having one attempt only to O several days or a week later, just having regular attempts is going to boost your chances of conceiving.

[onelittlewish]

Thank you I understand where you are coming from now. So in my situation at the moment I'd like to stick to e4d which is 1 attempt in fertile window. If it doesn't work out this month I'll go back on Clomid next month with e4d+1 attempt at pos OPK. Thanks again for all the info! CD6 today and gonna start the attempts soon, FX this is the month! Will keep you updated :wink:

[onelittlewish]

Hi Atomic, hope you are all well! Just want to give you a little update here..

We did e4d last cycle without clomid but unfortunately did not conceive. We had our last attempt at O-2 or even O-3 if I ovulated a day later and we couldnt continue with turkey baster because my cyst flared up and was so swollen and painful that I was on antibiotics again. This month I am back on clomid, we had 1 bd cd9 and I got a + very early on the night of cd11. We didn’t attempt that day because my hubby’s coworkers confirmed covid. He then took PCR and came back positive the next day but very high CT 38 and he was asymptomatic all along. I was so sure that I’d be positive too and thought I’d need to skip this month. My PCR result back today on CD12 and was neg so we had our attempt but it might be too late since my last attempt was cd9 and I got my pos opk night of cd11. I think the chances are slim but who knows, it usually come when least expected right? I’ll keep you posted and in the meanwhile please stay safe! Covid is going crazy again here..

[atomic sagebrush]

oh gosh so sorry to hear that!

Hey, you can still get pregnant that way. Not sky high chance, but some chance. Good luck and I hope for good news soon!!

[onelittlewish]

Thank you! I think I am ok either way, still abit nervous that my neg is a false one and it becomes positive later. It’s not something unheard of so still possible but since we don’t have any symptom at all I didn’t want to waste a month on clomid. We had BD on cd 9 and 13, first pos OpK cd11 night. I think I ovulated on cd13 because I had cramps on CD 12&13 and temp raised today on cd14 so most likely the attempt fell on O day. Not absolutely out I hope! Will let you know either way!

[onelittlewish]

Hi Atomic, sorry for vanishing for a while...I thought I'd just keep trying until I have some good news to share but unfortunately there is none and now I am at cycle 8 of ttc. We have not add an addition attempt yet (so far 1x one attempt, 1x ed4+1 and 5xed4) because the due dates in the past two months are right around my sons birthdays so we didn’t want to be “too actively trying” and thought if we did then it is meant but nope.

In the past 8 months my LP have been always been spot on 13 days so timing wise I think we covered ovulation and the relevant attempts were usually O-2/O+1 or O-3/O. I did gain some weight since new year because my diet has been half hearted and I have been slacking off from my exercise too. I am ok with my loose diet/exercise because I think this is the best I can do after being on LE/exercise for 10 months and I thought the weight gain will help me to conceive but still na-da. I guess my question is, is it possible that I can only get preg with multiple BDs in the fertile window even if I have no fertility issue? Or should a healthy couple be able to conceive with e4d within a period of time and if not, something is probably off? Out of the 8 months trying there was only 1 month we did e4d+1 attempt at pos OPK but apparently my doctor doesn't know and she wants to do further testing if we do not conceive this month. At first I thought it's taking so long because I've been swaying and now I worry that there is something wrong with me/hubby.

I’m not sure what I am trying to say, probably just at a lost at what to do next. Add attempts? Some part of me is not ready to do that but I think the longer this drags the more of my sway will fall apart. At the moment I am still trying to eat late breakfast, cutting back meat/white carbs/ sugar, try not to snack but i am not counting anything now and I eat everything even the no no food but in small amount. I try to keep up my walking 4x a week but somehow i feel so tired everyday even with adequate sleep. I am dropping wine this cycle and just taking folate. I think I have read somewhere that small amount of alcohol wont harm the chances but I just had to do some changes to make me feel better.

Oh and my youngest threw my thermometer behind my bed so no more charting for me :sigh:

[atomic sagebrush]

Can you bump this for me?? I'm out of time for today.

[onelittlewish]

Bump! Take your time I have no urgent issue or question…just need someone to talk to to clear my head abit. I thought I was very chilled until my best friend got pregnant a month ago at first try with one attempt and cut off swaying girl. Shes also has two boys and it seemed so easy for her. I am happy for her but it’s hard. Now I started to question if everything I did ruined my ability to conceive and I end up with no sway tactic at all as my diet and exercise are not as solid as before too you know what i mean :sad:

[atomic sagebrush]

No not at all, remember it's not your job to get back to me, it's my job to get back to you!

Ok, so once you're out of the birthday months I think it's definitely time to add an attempt.

I agree that it is time for followup testing. While most men can absolutely father a baby with one attempt (and all men with any reasonable amount of sperm can over the course of time) it's possible that one or the other of you may have something going on and it's not happening for that reason. If he has low sperm count, or you have partial blocking in your tubes, two attempts would obvs. be better. Alternatively, it's also possible that it's not that you've only had one attempt per se, but that the attempts just didn't fall at the right time in any given month, and by adding in another attempt you'll have better timing.

Please don't hesitate to add in attempts now. What happens, and I know most people think it can't possibly happen to them, but it will eventually, is that at some point you're going to panic and start doing anything and everything to get pregnant. Doesn't it make more sense to make small and reasonable changes now, than to wait till you're so frustrated that you give up completely??? Go ahead and add in an attempt, keep doing what you're doing otherwise, and see what happens.

I want you to take a little test for me. Get some iron, 30-60 mg, somewhere in there, and take it every day for a week. If you feel dramatically, drastically better (sometimes within even a couple hours of taking the first dose) continue taking it daily for 6 weeks, then go to a maintenance dose of 3x a week. If you don't feel any better, take it 3x a week from now on anyway. Your tiredness sounds like it could possibly be anemia.

[atomic sagebrush]

Bump! Take your time I have no urgent issue or question…just need someone to talk to to clear my head abit. I thought I was very chilled until my best friend got pregnant a month ago at first try with one attempt and cut off swaying girl. Shes also has two boys and it seemed so easy for her. I am happy for her but it’s hard. Now I started to question if everything I did ruined my ability to conceive and I end up with no sway tactic at all as my diet and exercise are not as solid as before too you know what i mean :sad:

That is one thing that still gets to me. The number of people for whom it just happens for, seemingly with no trouble at all, and then there's the rest of us. While I'm mostly at peace with GD stuff at this point, I still get a little irritated when I see people who have a boy and a girl very easily, no trouble conceiving, none of the rest of it, and then they're just like "thank GOD, we're DONE!" These people are invariably rich and doing amazing things like taking trips and having all these family adventures, and I'm like "why could this not happen for the rest of us so easily?" IDK, it just rubs me the wrong way some days. :p

Re your diet, if memory serves you were dieting too strictly anyway so a relaxed diet is definitely better for you regardless. No worries on that.

[Kazzzz]

Hey sorry Atomic quick question I'm swaying girl as you know but coffee is aggravating my anxiety in a major way so I'm worried the heightened anxiety will sway blue more then the coffee sways pink? I'm getting anxiety medication because i already have anxiety so maybe if i stonp coffee till i have that medication on board then retry with the coffee? Which is stronger coffee for girl or anxiety for boy?

[onelittlewish]

We will def add attempt in May if not getting preg in Apr, then we need to go back to e4d again in Jun & Jul because of my DS1's birthday. After that we are clear till year end. As much as I want to get preg asap I can't imagine doing 2 birthday parties back to back :worry: So I am mentally prepared that this will drag on abit longer..

What are some standard tests that they usually do? Over here usually they just ask you keep trying...esp I have two kids already they usually say that there is no problem and it's just a matter of time.

The journey itself is hard enough and it feels like no one understand that ttc #3 is just as hard as ttc #1. People kept saying don't stress you already have 2! You will get pregnant eventually. I have a friend who has a boy and a girl told me that she would love to have a third but her hubby is done with 2 so I should be grateful that I have the chance to have 3 kids, even if the third is a boy. I know she meant no harm but it really gets me. So now I just don't talk about it with anyone so I don't get unwanted comments that are supposed to make me feel better. I am just glad I still have a safe place here to share my mind.

I will def try adding iron and see. If one tab is 20mg then I'll take 2x a day? Always thought that the exhaustion is from managing my two little ones. I didn't feel that I was super strict with my diet but with skipping breakfast and cutting out white carbs and sugar and snacking I did lose about 3kg over the first 6 months. Then I gained back about 2kg in the last 3 months or so and now holding steading at bmi 18.9. I am still 0.5kg lower than my lowest adult weight and still mindful about not snacking and not eating too much sugar so hopefully that still count for something.

I got 3 days of low and straight away got my peak smiley yesterday on CD12 and we had an attempt last night. My OPKs are pos since yesterday morning and since last night the test lines have been blazing dark. I had never seen such dark lines before and for such a long time, whatever that means. And I got a whole lot more EWCM today than yesterday and super bloated, so hmm finger crossed that we got the attempt at the right timing this month although deep down I think the attempt is a bit early but probably better than late right?

By the way, does being stressed out with my kids sway blue? I feel like I'm constantly snapping at my kids. I try not to micro manage them but it's so hard argh. It's worse when I feel drained and then I stress over my emotion control issue and viscous cycle. I don't think this is something I can change but I am curious whether you see this more in blue moms.

And now that I am not on clomid, I just realised how much EWCM I have! So I had barely any EWCM in the months when I took clomid. Probably that's making it harder to conceive?

[atomic sagebrush]

Hey sorry Atomic quick question I'm swaying girl as you know but coffee is aggravating my anxiety in a major way so I'm worried the heightened anxiety will sway blue more then the coffee sways pink? I'm getting anxiety medication because i already have anxiety so maybe if i stonp coffee till i have that medication on board then retry with the coffee? Which is stronger coffee for girl or anxiety for boy?

I can't answer that question as I have no scientific data to compare the two things.

If you're not tolerating coffee well, you should wean off coffee!

[atomic sagebrush]

OLW:

Hey, ok, as long as you are fine with that pacing that's your call to make totally. I'm honestly fine with you guys trying at your own pace always, it's just that I've seen too many people go on and on only to all at once, chuck everything, so I like to warn you about the possibility.

The helpful tests would be testing to make sure your tubes are clear and your husband's sperm count. That having been said, what ~usually~ happens is that they'll test the most basic stuff - LH, FSH, and progesterone - which are not helpful in 99% of cases and then they'll be like "see, everything is fine! keep going" while missing the two things that actually may be preventing conception. But often you have to sit thru that first round of testing before they'll let you move on to the good stuff, LOL.

People who have a boy and a girl simply don't understand. I agree that was out of line but it appears to be just beyond the ability of people to understand unless they have experienced it firsthand.

Yes, take 20 mg twice a day and see how it goes. If you're anemic you will likely feel dramatically, drastically better almost immediately so then we'll have more of an inkling that is an issue.

Your weight is much better than it was, just try to hold steady. If a little bit of weight sneaks back on that's fine, I don't want you losing any more again.

Great! I'm so glad you got a clear OPK and a nice attempt! Yes that's right, you can always conceive with a slightly-too-early attempt, but not a late one! Err on the side of early vs. late.

No, I don't see child-related stress in boy moms vs. girl moms. Boy moms are generally more controlling of EVERY aspect of life than girl moms tend to be so that is definitely "a thing" but many of us control freaks, myself included, still get girls. And when it comes to moms of all girls, they are often very stressed out and overwhelmed by their kiddos too. You just can't tell anything on that basis.

[Kazzzz]

I can't answer that question as I have no scientific data to compare the two things.

If you're not tolerating coffee well, you should wean off coffee!


Ok thanks atomic i guess my main concern is that anxiety can sway blue? An if coffee is causing more anxiety will it hinder my girl sway? If anxiety and coffee both sway girl then i wouldn't have a problem lol

[onelittlewish]

So this morning I got my 3rd day of positive OPK but today the test line is as dark as the control one so I think it's turning negative later in the day. I usually get 1.5-2 days of pos OPK but never 3 days so I just went in for a scan because I can't chart this month and I simply can't keep up e4d until my next period. and guess what? I got my OPK was still at around 7:30am and by the time I went in for my ultrasound at 9am, the ovulation had happened already. So like you said it is totally possible to have ovulated before the surge ends. Probably I caught the very beginning of the surge and the tail of it. So the timing attempt was just nice, probably 1-1.5 days before O. Finger crossed we catch the egg this time.

I also talked to my doc about the further testing and she said in her opinion my hormones are normal and my uterus lining looks fertile (0.87cm with the three lines) so if we want, we can start by doing sperm analysis BUT she thinks it's not necessary because I have two kids already. I'll keep in mind with the tube aspect and ask her about it when we are at that point.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I used to be the type who think I can get a B+G easily and done with 2. Now I am actually glad that I have two boys instead of having a boy and a girl because my boys are so close together and they share the same interests - although fighting all the time too. The bond is quite different with siblings of the same gender. The older they grow the stronger I feel this way. But my heart still yearns for a mini me you know. I am ok with ttc at a slower pace but the only concern I have is that the age gap between my first two and #3 is getting bigger and bigger. My ideal gap was 2.5-3 and now it is def 3+ or even 4. I know you have two pairs of boys with a huge gap in between, do you find that the kid have less common interests and have a harder time becoming close? And how does your girl fit in? I don't think 4-5yo is even that big of a gap but I see this "less bonding" happening in a few families around me who has kids 5 years apart. So that worries me a bit.

[onelittlewish]

Ok thanks atomic i guess my main concern is that anxiety can sway blue? An if coffee is causing more anxiety will it hinder my girl sway? If anxiety and coffee both sway girl then i wouldn't have a problem lol

Hey kazzz have you started trying?

[atomic sagebrush]

Ok thanks atomic i guess my main concern is that anxiety can sway blue? An if coffee is causing more anxiety will it hinder my girl sway? If anxiety and coffee both sway girl then i wouldn't have a problem lol

Anxiety doesn't sway blue, being a massive control freak sways blue. So if you're doing things like complicated math equations trying to calculate anxiety vs. coffee for your sway, that's being a control freak. Don't do that, just do the stuff that works for YOU, that has worked for other people, and don't go down rabbitholes where you're thinking of swaying as "this thing will get me X% and that thing gets me Y% and X-Y = Z% and this is what my chances are." That is not how swaying works, we have no way to quantify any of this stuff, and the more you try to "game the system" the more control freakish you get.

I cannot answer questions like this. I simply cannot know these things because I have no way to test for them and the answer is very very likely different by each individual anyway. Please just avoid anything that physicaly you simply don't tolerate well, and let it go if you can't do certain things.

[atomic sagebrush]

Great! I'm glad you were able to go in and see it firsthand - I can tell people that it happens quite regularly, but there's no way for people to believe it without hearing from other people or seeing it themselves.

Have the sperm analysis anyway. We have people on here all. the. time. who are told, or assume they can't possibly have sperm issues if they have kids already. But they do and it's good to know if that's what is happening, in case there is a physical reason that can be dealt with.

My older sons are 26 and 30, my younger sons are 12 and 14. So that is way more than what most families have. My older boys are like "fun uncles" really and not so much the same sibling bond. That having been said, the older ones are highly protective of the littles (even second guessing our parenting at times, LOL) and are insanely overgenerous with presents. They do all have very similar interests and seem to enjoy hanging out together, I wish it could happen more than it does.

The older boys live together as roommates still to this day, even though they have a nearly 4 year age gap they have a lot in common and although they drive each other crazy, always have each other's backs.. My daughter is especially close to my 4th boy, isn't the odd man out by any means. But my 3rd boy and daughter are both outdoorsy, so they do those things together, and then of course the boys do boy stuff. My daughter does girl stuff with me :) It works out a lot better than I had feared that it might!

[onelittlewish]

That sounds like a beautiful family you have and I love your family dynamics. And from what you described 4yo really isn’t that big of a deal. I guess the older they grow the impact of the age gap will become less significant. And interesting to hear that the one and only baby girl is not the odd one out at all! Sometimes I feel if I were lucky enough to get my girl I should try to sway again to give her a friend. But swaying once is hard enough let alone twice with no guarantee :oops:

I’ve caught a cold since O day I think. Started with sore throat and headache then now just runny and stuffed nose. Does illness sway if it started from ovulation? I havn’t caught a cold for a looooong time.

[atomic sagebrush]

Aww, thanks! I know a LOT of people thought I'd lost the plot when I started up again with a whole new family after my first two were nearly grown (I wasn't even divorced or anything, people always assume that but we just had a lot of stuff to get through there for a while) but it's really worked out in surprisingly nice ways.

A lot of people do end up swaying again, but I chose to look at my daughter as just someone so special I didn't want to have to "share" my girl momming with anyone else, LOL.

We think that illness sways somewhat pink, sorry to hear you're not feeling well, though. We don't know if it has any effect for this month or if it would be next month. I hope you're on the mend soon!

[onelittlewish]

Sometimes I feel crazy that I even dream about having 2b2g. I always though 3 is a stretch for us already. I guess if I were to get a girl this time, I don’t think I’d have the gut to try swaying again. just don’t think I’d be so lucky! And you are right about the special bond with the one and only baby girl who will be so loved and protected by the entire family! But we will see…one step at a time and who knows!

My cold was ok, just pretty annoying. 4th day and Ive taken some meds to relieve the symptoms. Not itchy or coughing just super sore and loads of nasal mucus. I took a covid test and thank God it came back neg. Probably just a nasty cold that needs to run it’s course. I am super bloated today too and got sharp pains so not fun at all. A week more waiting game arrrrrrrgh

[atomic sagebrush]

Hey if you're having bloating and cramps a week before AF is due that can be a good sign! FXFXFX for good news this month!

[onelittlewish]

I wish you are right! But I have also learnt my lesson not to think too much of those symptoms. Over the last 8 months I spot new symptoms every month and non yielded a BFP :oops: I've had severe bloating, gassiness, cramping, back pain, constipation, frequent bowel movement, sensitive nipples, fatigue...you name it! No symptom is out of the norm for me lol. Maybe the cold is :eek: b

[atomic sagebrush]

I completely understand - I have heard all possible array of symptoms and unfortunately none of them really are reliable 100% of the time. Still, FXFXFX!!

[onelittlewish]

Hi Atomic, I have been taking iron for 2 days now and I do feel alot more energetic. Sometimes still sleepy but not having the super exhausted feeling. So I'll continue that for 6 weeks daily and then maintenance dose right?

I am about 8dpo today and my CM is drying up which is abit different from my norm. I usually have very lotion & creamy CM from O then goes watery a few days before AF around 10dpo (i think thats from the drop of protesterone right?). My CM now is stringy snotty and stretchy (sorry tmi)! Apart from that I unbelievably have no other symptom at all :think:

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes, or daily even longer if, when you reduce the dose to 3x a week, you notice you start feeling worse.

Sometimes changes in CM in the 2WW can of course be pregnancy-related, beyond that I can't speculate. Good luck and pink dust headed your way!

[Kazzzz]

Hey kazzz have you started trying?

Hey sorry i missed this. I'm not trying yet, I'm still trying to sort my diet and ocd �� I've been off meat and take aways and junk food for 3 months so I'm probably already to go but recently over the last 3wks I've been chopping an changes my diet trying to perfect it an switching between sways to see what feels right. I decided to get healthy 3 months ago which just happens to be girl friendly so I'm happy about that since i only just chose to try again like a month ago. Now I'm over thinking everything and picking apart my sway mostly because my last girl sway didn't work there's more pressure this time. Also I've gained nearly a kg in a wk since adding full fat dairy to my sway but I'm still within the limits this is giving me anxiety. How's your weight going? I hope i can get my weight to stay the same without starting to gain.

Have you taken a test yet or has af arrived?

[onelittlewish]

Hey sorry i missed this. I'm not trying yet, I'm still trying to sort my diet and ocd �� I've been off meat and take aways and junk food for 3 months so I'm probably already to go but recently over the last 3wks I've been chopping an changes my diet trying to perfect it an switching between sways to see what feels right. I decided to get healthy 3 months ago which just happens to be girl friendly so I'm happy about that since i only just chose to try again like a month ago. Now I'm over thinking everything and picking apart my sway mostly because my last girl sway didn't work there's more pressure this time. Also I've gained nearly a kg in a wk since adding full fat dairy to my sway but I'm still within the limits this is giving me anxiety. How's your weight going? I hope i can get my weight to stay the same without starting to gain.

Have you taken a test yet or has af arrived?

Hi Kazzz, sorry I missed this too!! Only checked the tww thread these past few days. My weight is ok -/+ 1kg I try to keep it steady at bmi 18.9. When I was strict with meat/refined carbs/ no milk & minimum sugar my bmi dropped to 18.1 and my ovulations were late around cd16-18. Now usually I ovulate around CD13-15 so that feels abit healthier but somehow I still have trouble conceiving. I am no where close to a solid LE diet now (in my opinion) and at this point I just want to get pregnant with LE-inspired diet lol.

I did test from 10DPO and yea honestly I don't know what is going on. I got a very faint positive at 11dpo late evening, then 12 & 13 mornings (today) the lines were pretty much the same. I went to have my HCG checked this morning because I really want to know what these lines mean. Result came back <5miu so I am not preg at all. Out of curiosity I took another FRER without any hold and still a line came up within a min and def. Meaning they are detecting HCG <5miu? My period is due tomorrow...only time will tell I guess.

What did you change from your last sway?

[atomic sagebrush]

Hey sorry i missed this. I'm not trying yet, I'm still trying to sort my diet and ocd �� I've been off meat and take aways and junk food for 3 months so I'm probably already to go but recently over the last 3wks I've been chopping an changes my diet trying to perfect it an switching between sways to see what feels right. I decided to get healthy 3 months ago which just happens to be girl friendly so I'm happy about that since i only just chose to try again like a month ago. Now I'm over thinking everything and picking apart my sway mostly because my last girl sway didn't work there's more pressure this time. Also I've gained nearly a kg in a wk since adding full fat dairy to my sway but I'm still within the limits this is giving me anxiety. How's your weight going? I hope i can get my weight to stay the same without starting to gain.

Have you taken a test yet or has af arrived?

But of course limits are just blanket totals that I make up. If you're actively gaining weight, that indicates you need to lower calories somewhat. So make some cuts on CALORIES while keeping the same protein and fat limits.

[atomic sagebrush]

Hi Kazzz, sorry I missed this too!! Only checked the tww thread these past few days. My weight is ok -/+ 1kg I try to keep it steady at bmi 18.9. When I was strict with meat/refined carbs/ no milk & minimum sugar my bmi dropped to 18.1 and my ovulations were late around cd16-18. Now usually I ovulate around CD13-15 so that feels abit healthier but somehow I still have trouble conceiving. I am no where close to a solid LE diet now (in my opinion) and at this point I just want to get pregnant with LE-inspired diet lol.

I did test from 10DPO and yea honestly I don't know what is going on. I got a very faint positive at 11dpo late evening, then 12 & 13 mornings (today) the lines were pretty much the same. I went to have my HCG checked this morning because I really want to know what these lines mean. Result came back <5miu so I am not preg at all. Out of curiosity I took another FRER without any hold and still a line came up within a min and def. Meaning they are detecting HCG <5miu? My period is due tomorrow...only time will tell I guess.

What did you change from your last sway?

We are seeing a lot of these very faint positive tests that never get any darker. We feel they changed something about the technology they're using about 2 1/2 years ago now (just prior to the pandemic) as we have had a lot of these strange ghost lines that did not amount to anything.

[Kazzzz]

Hi Kazzz, sorry I missed this too!! Only checked the tww thread these past few days. My weight is ok -/+ 1kg I try to keep it steady at bmi 18.9. When I was strict with meat/refined carbs/ no milk & minimum sugar my bmi dropped to 18.1 and my ovulations were late around cd16-18. Now usually I ovulate around CD13-15 so that feels abit healthier but somehow I still have trouble conceiving. I am no where close to a solid LE diet now (in my opinion) and at this point I just want to get pregnant with LE-inspired diet lol.

I did test from 10DPO and yea honestly I don't know what is going on. I got a very faint positive at 11dpo late evening, then 12 & 13 mornings (today) the lines were pretty much the same. I went to have my HCG checked this morning because I really want to know what these lines mean. Result came back <5miu so I am not preg at all. Out of curiosity I took another FRER without any hold and still a line came up within a min and def. Meaning they are detecting HCG <5miu? My period is due tomorrow...only time will tell I guess.

What did you change from your last sway?

Hey alot has changed this time longer on the diet, exercise for 1hr 6x a wk was doing none last time, I've also switched from original le white bread, rice, pasta to pcos/alt wholegrains low/no sugar etc. I'm breastfeeding this time and the gap between my next baby an last baby is much closer. I'm more relaxed (lol even when it doesn't seem like it atomic lol) i was alot more ocd last time and I'm not in a rush this time. We are selling our house and moving so I'm distracted by that which is good. What i do want to do is get my weight down a bit more before conceiving this time because my weight was the same the last 3 times my bmi is 21 a bit lower would be good

[onelittlewish]

Hi Atomic, need your advice here...we are having a long break here and we are travelling. Meal times are random and food choices are quite limited so I am pretty much off the diet entirely for this week. We are eating quite a lot of bread and meat and it is hard to stick to no snacking due to constant social gatherings with friends. I don't have a scale here but I am pretty sure I will gain weight because I am full all the time and actually feeling quite uncomfortable. How would this week off diet (not just some cheats here and there) impact the sway? The only thing that is pink friendly on this trip is that I've been sleeping really poorly as I am cosleeping with the kids and feeling exhausted all the time.

[atomic sagebrush]

Hi Atomic, need your advice here...we are having a long break here and we are travelling. Meal times are random and food choices are quite limited so I am pretty much off the diet entirely for this week. We are eating quite a lot of bread and meat and it is hard to stick to no snacking due to constant social gatherings with friends. I don't have a scale here but I am pretty sure I will gain weight because I am full all the time and actually feeling quite uncomfortable. How would this week off diet (not just some cheats here and there) impact the sway? The only thing that is pink friendly on this trip is that I've been sleeping really poorly as I am cosleeping with the kids and feeling exhausted all the time.

Very little if at all. Just do what you need to do and then once you're back to normal life again, pick it up with diet.

[onelittlewish]

I gained 0.5-1kg probably because we were almost on our feet all day long and I lost them 2 days after we got back to normal life so I guess that's not too bad! I have a question regarding OPK. I am on CD13 today and I tested with FMU my clearblue gave me low fertility (circle) and I tested OPK strips with my SMU/mid day/evening I all got equally dark lines. Should I follow my OPK strips or Clearblue?

This looks positive right?

43611

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes very small gains like that where you immediately lose it aren't "gains" in the strict sense of the word. There's just no way to prevent minute weight fluctuations (and trying to do so would render you so control freakish it would harm your sway anyway)

Always go off the FIRST positive OPK of any brand since you can get pregnant with an attempt "too soon" but not one too late.

Agree that's a positive.

[onelittlewish]

That’s what I thought too..this morning I got a test line darker than control line on my OPK strip and still a low fertility on the clearblue monitor. Never happened before usually both are in sync. Anyway, ovulating anytime now and hopefully we catch the egg!

[atomic sagebrush]

The Clearblue monitor can sometimes be tricky, since it's measuring changes rather than straight LH levels. So if your LH rise isn't dramatic (meaning that there's not a shocking change, even if LH is high enough to trigger O) sometimes it doesn't detect that, even when a regular stick DOES. I would still keep using the Clearblue too just to see, and then if you get a positive on that one, have another attempt.

[onelittlewish]

I used my last Clearblue stick this morning and fortunately I got a peak (CD15, low from CD10-14), and still a blazing dark positive OPK strip (3rd day). We had an attempt yesterday and can't have one tonight because we have guest in town..I guess we will just carry on with e4d until O confirmed by BBT. Will keep you updated!

[onelittlewish]

Still blazing dark pos OPK in the evening and really bad O pain this evening...extremely bloated and crampy never in my life. Feeling super wet and loads of EWCM too. Could it be that the OPK strip caught a surge but I didn't actually ovulate? but wouldn't clearblue have caught that too if the first was a proper surge? Those are all legit positives right? I really hope O comes ASAP or my attempt would probably have been too early.

43614

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes. What can happen is that the hormone is coming out and your body is ovulating, just on its own timeline. The hormone doesn't MAKE your body ovulate, it more just sends a signal like "ok now's the time" and your body can then still take 24, 36, 48 hours or even longer to ovulate after that point. Then in addition, yes, you can surge and then not ovulate from that surge at all and surge again and then ovulate. This can happen in short order (and honestly probably does happen more often than it taking a week or more to have that second surge). I can't say which is happening, but just keep going with that e4d and it's all good.

[onelittlewish]

You body does all sorts of weird things while TTC don’t they! I think I have something new every month! When I want to BD on the first pos I can’t find the right one argh!

This morning OpK went neg, CM dried up and my temp this morning is higher than the last six but not yet in the real high temp zone, putting my last attempt probably at O-1 or O-2. Send me all the baby dust! Now officially in the TWW :fx:

[atomic sagebrush]

They really truly do, that's why I'm always (annoyingly) urging you guys not to read too much into patterns of symptoms, because so many people have them changing in all these weird and unexpected ways!!!

Baby dust headed your way!!!!

[onelittlewish]

We did the sperm analysis this morning and the results are back, my doc says its not good and referring us to the andrologist. She suggests that natural conception would be difficult with this result. Can you take a look for me how bad it is? And what do you suggest when the husband's sperm quality is low? I am very lost now as to what to do. Is there still chance to conceive naturally (like with more attempts)? Or is IVF the only option?

Abstained for 3 days
Concentration 6.188 10^6/ml
Count 21.04 10^6/ejaculation
Time to liquefaction 180min
Viscosity 3 cm
Progressive Motility 23%
Non progressive motility 15%
Morphology 1%

And what I couldn't understand is how is this possible when we conceived 2 without any fertility challenge. Life style & diet change?

[atomic sagebrush]

Oh gosh so sorry to read this, but at the same time I'm glad because it helps us fix the problem.

It happens all the time that people a) conceive with terrible sperm quality or b) have good sperm quality that then tanks for some reason. In many cases it does recover in subsequent testing (it is possible to have a single bad test result and have normal sperm, but that you guys haven't conceived leads me to believe there's a bigger issue.) Please don't panic though, we've seen people with way worse test results than this go on to get pregnant.

You can still conceive without IVF. In fact we've had some people who had worse results than this, who tried and failed with IVF, who went on to conceive normally.

So tell me more about your husband, was he doing or taking anything for your sway, what is his overall lifestyle, that kind of thing?

Would you be willing to try a couple fertility boosting supps and tricks?

Straightaway, let's have him switch to boxers, avoid hot baths or sauna, stop jogging or biking if he was doing that, and have him "cleaning the pipes" every 2-4 days. These small things actually make a big difference!

[onelittlewish]

He is not doing/taking anything for our sway, so eating normally and no supplements. He is a meat lover esp red meat (beef/pork). He drinks 2 cups of coffee a day (for years) and tons of tea (since last year or two so that's a change but i don't think tea can damage sperm?). He doesn't smoke and rarely drinks (more when I was drinking when I started swaying but stopped when I stopped). He used to go to gym and exercise regularly (weight and running) until the pandemic started in 2020 then he started cycling a few days a week since Sept last year but has stopped after a few months due to the rainy season. So pretty much no exercise at all in 2022. He has always worn tight underwear, do hot shower but not tub bath nor sauna.

We have booked an appointment with an andrologist this saturday and will see what are the treatment options. Now that we actually have the need we are open to IVF again but since it has not been decided I still want to continue trying naturally. Can you tell me more about the fertility boosting supp and tricks? Do they sway blue? But I guess my top priority is to conceive right? Can we still sway while battling fertility challenge? I am sorry I have so many questions. I just never expected this to happen. I mean I knew something was off and expected the sperm count to be lower but not low on everything sigh.

In terms of my diet, can I continue what I am doing or do I need to change anything? Also I read that you wrote breakfast isn't the deal breaker but the total time of the day without food. Is there a difference between eating at 7/11/7 (with 12 hours fast but longer time between meals) and 9/11/7 (longer overnight fast but shorter time between meals)? I always have the idea that it's better to push breakfast for a few hours but because I need to eat lunch with my kids I don't feel hungry at all if I eat my breakfast at 9. My diet had been all over the place in the last few months... trying to be a tiny bit more disciplined now that we need to do a few things to boost fertility.

[atomic sagebrush]

First things first, have him ditch the tight underwear even if he's always worn it. That's a very easy thing to change. If he's unwilling to do that, he can try just sleeping nude or in loose pants, but it's best for him to change them out. This seems like such a small thing but can make a big difference. Also he'll not be able to return to jogging or cycling till this is sorted.

So then next, you have to ask yourself if you want to just give that a go first (plus being sure he's cleaning the pipes every 2-4 days) and see what happens.

We do believe that the male fertility supps do boost odds of blue somewhat, but we haven't got a firm body of data to prove it. (Keep in mind that pretty much everyone swaying blue is having their husbands on those things and still get girls sometimes.) So we could give it a try without the supplements if you want. Or, since you guys have already been at this quite a while, we could go ahead and add some in. I'd have him take Men's One a Day over 50 (even though he's not over 50, this just has a better breakdown of nutrients, explain that if he balks at it - I give it to my teenage son just because I like the nutrient levels so well in it), 1000 mg carnitine, 500 mg arginine, and then optionally 200 mcg co q 10 in the ubiquinol form if you want to add that in. It's quite expensive and the least beneficial so feel free to drop that one if need be.

The coffee and tea doesn't matter, it's fine to carry on with those.

Please do whichever option for eating works best for you. Anywhere from 12-16 hours overnight is enough fasting. I think that if you'd like to eat at 7 and then at lunch with kiddos that's just absolutely a-ok as long as you're not eating several meals per day.

If I remember you were if anything too strict on diet before, so I wouldn't get TOO strict!

[onelittlewish]

I am not avoiding anything like a plague or count everything I put in my mouth but I do feel that my diet is a) eating way too much sweet treats and if I am holding my weight steady it probably means I am not eating enough protein and fat and b) i am slipping back into my old habit of having long meal times. It can easily take me 2 hours to finish my meal. Then the time between my meals are pretty short. For ex, I eat at 7-8, 11-1, 5-7 is that still ok or not a problem at all? It's hard for me to sit and finish all my food in one sitting when I am constantly caring for the kids.

I tried putting in what I've been eating and now I am at about 60p/50f/1600cal. Protein and fat mainly from dairy (whole fat milk and mozzarella cheese just because I have been craving those lately) and carbs from whole wheat toast and fruits. On top of that I eat some meat and sides from family meal just to keep me from getting bored of my food.

In terms of attempts, we should def do e4d+1 attempt at pos OPK right? Do we still have a chance with this result or is it only possible once we got the sperm issue sorted?

A really good friend of mine just found out that she's expecting her 3rd boy. She swayed girl using 1 attempt with cut off (so about 2 days before ovulation) and douching with vinegar, conceived on the first month. I don't know much about her diet but all her boys were conceived with 1 attempt (first twos are oopsies and last one planned) so really there is no magic bullet. And timing doesn't work.

[atomic sagebrush]

If you can close up the time you're eating, that's great. I wouldn't freak out about it, but having both 11-1 and 5-7 is quite a lot of grazing in there. Just do your best and if at times you fall short, it's ok.

We need to be sure you're getting enough protein and fat though so when hubby has a good batch for ya you aren't too depleted to capitalize on that!

Are you counting the pro and fat in fruit and veg?? Otherwise that's probably a good diet for you to stick with unless you're losing too much weight.

Yes, either do e4d plus one, or SMEP for a better chance of conception. You ABSOLUTELY have a chance still, I have seen men with worse sperm health father kids on several occasions. Keep in mind this is just ONE batch and men are always making sperm, so there is every chance that a different day he could have much better quality. (this is of course how you ended up with your kiddos!)

Exactly. There's no magic bullet either way (plenty of people sway for boys and get girls) so just focus on what you can do, and turn the rest of it over to a higher power or luck.

[onelittlewish]

Agree I do feel like grazing although not as bad as before. I tried finishing my lunch within one hour it's achievable just need to be more aware of the time. No the proteins and fat are just from my toast/milk/cheese/peanut butter and they are about 1200cal. Just need to make sure I eat all of those to get enough p+f. I have another 400cal for my fruits and other things that I eat and holding it steady. I only gain weight when I stress eating or when we are on holidays but I usually lose them within a week once I got back on track so that's not an issue.

We will try e4d +1 for a while and see. I don't think we can manage SMEP not because it sways blue but I doubt whether DH can perform with that schedule. I did find that DH's libido had deflated in the past year or two so.

[atomic sagebrush]

Just do your best and it's likely just fine. Hang in there, this can still happen. :heart:

[onelittlewish]

We went to an andrologist today and the advices she gave were pretty much the same as the ones from you (loose boxers, no cycling, and also cut down tea/caffein intake). But it seems that he is taking those recommendations from dr much more seriously than coming from me. So at least the visit paid off in some sense. We will retest in 3-4 months and see if those changes are effective. She also subscribed 2 supplements, can you take a look for me in terms of boosting fertility and swaying?

One is called Vitan
- Extract of Tribulus Terrestris L 250 mg

The other one is called TONICARD
- Ubidecarenone 100mg (is it the type of CoQ10 that you don't recommend?)
- L-Carnitine Fumarate 400mg
- Vit E100IU
- Folic Acid 800mg

Both 1x a day

[atomic sagebrush]

That's always the way, LOL. Oh well as long as he's willing to make the changes.

The tribulus is ok as long as he's using a name brand. I don't particularly recommend that as the studies are mixed in terms of results, but it may help somewhat. It is said by some to sway blue, though. (I don't use it at all for swaying since the data about how it works for swaying is VERY mixed and people did still get girls on it back on Ingender)

I would also suggest that he simply take a men's multi that already HAS folic acid, Vitamin E, plus other stuff in it like the men's One a Day over 50, which should also have some other good things like Vitamin D and lycopene. And then 1000 mg carnitine, 500 mg arginine, 100-200 mg Coq10 (and ubiquinol is better than ubidecarenone because the body doesn't need to convert it). If you want, he can take an additional 400 mcg of folic acid (One a Day has 400).

[onelittlewish]

He dropped the tea, the cycling but not the tight underwear argh. Would our situation (sperm issue) sway girl itself or is there no correlation? If the low sperm count sways to some extent then adding some blue factor to dial back a little so that we can conceive is still okish I guess?

I am on CD12 and I got my 1st equally dark pos OPK yesterday at CD11. We were supposed to have our e4d attempt yesterday but DH was too tired so we are having one today. I got my peak on CBM this morning so I guess today+tomorrow (IF DH is in the mood *scream*) would be good? My O is quite early this month probably because I am drinking lots of milk. I might have asked this before but milk within limit is ok right? I am getting all of my p+f from milk and cheese at the moment just because I crave for them so badly esp milk.

[onelittlewish]

So dh still continued cycling…today before our attempt. Im starting to feel hopeless now:tissue:

[atomic sagebrush]

We do believe that lower sperm quality may sway pink, but it's complicated because even though we (quite overwhelmingly BTW) see more girls conceived among men with male factor fertility issues, at the same time, if a guy was improving their sperm health, could that potentially sway blue?? We simply don't know and can't say because we don't know the mechanisms that are swaying. We just don't have the data to say how it all works.

What I do know is that you guys need to not worry about how any of this sways and do what it takes to get pregnant. We have seen many couples need to go onto sperm health vitamins and most of them who were swaying pink still got girls (and a good number of those swaying blue as well, still got girls!)

Milk within limits is fine. Everything within limits is fine, the only thing to avoid are highly fortified foods like power bars and cereal.

Oh gosh, well, tell him that it's very likely the lower sperm count can be easily improved by dropping cycling, so that will be helpful if he lets it go. Try not to worry about it for this month since what is done is done, you're not out till your period arrives and it's definitely possible to have success even in months you think it's impossible!

[onelittlewish]

I know I know, what needs to be done has to be done. I have ovulated on CD13/14 pretty early for me thanks to the milk.

Can you take a look for me if this cereal is OK? It's more of the sugary type but it does have some vitamins added. It really satisfies my sweet tooth so I feel done with 30g of these a day. I couldn't insert the image but it's called Swiss Choco Bits for 100g it has

Vit E 7.9mg
Vit B1 0.7mg
Vit B2 0.9mg
Vit B6 0.9mg
Vit B12 1.7ug
Pantothenic acid 4mg
Niacin 10.6mg
folic acid 132 ug

If you prefer I pick something else over this I will but if you think its no biggy I will happily continue!

[atomic sagebrush]

Even sugar cereal has vitamins added. That is as much Vit. E as in a vitamin, and nearly as much B vitamins. Since you're having a smaller serving, it's ~probably~ ok but if you can find a different option I'd likely go for something else instead.

[onelittlewish]

oh wow...luckily I asked. I've been eating those for a week or two but I'd def stay away from those now if the vits are the at the supplement dosage. FF gave me my crosshair and 3dpo today. Got an attempt on O-1 at least the timing was a good one. Will keep you posted!

[atomic sagebrush]

FXFXFX!!!! :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

[onelittlewish]

CD2 here with really heavy flow. I was one day late so apparently I ovulated a day later than ff suggested. Even though natural conception is less likely with our situation I still had my hopes up and somehow feeling more crushed than ever :tissue: Cycle #11 now..

[atomic sagebrush]

I'm sorry. You guys can still conceive so keep going, even though I do know it's hard to see the BFN come and go.

So have you recently started any supplements that might be contributing to the heavy flow?? We may want to try an iron supp to see if it helps, if you're not already taking one.

[onelittlewish]

Thanks Atomic, I know I should not be expecting but I still did. When I am feeling ok I always thought there's next month and eventually we will and it won't matter how long it takes but still the 1st three days are always the hardest. We had a short getaway to the seaside and am feeling much better now :)

The heavy flow started since last month. No supplement for me apart from folic acid and iron. The only change was dropping clomid. There are lots huge clots and I can feel the blood gushing out, for the first two days though so I guess that's still in the normal range just very different for me. Today is CD3 and the flow is much lighter not soaking pads all the time.

[atomic sagebrush]

It may be that your body is just really cranking out the estrogen since you've been off Clomid, but at the same time I don't want you to get depleted. Be sure you're getting enough food and rest and hopefully this will improve next month.

[onelittlewish]

Hi Atomic, hope you are doing well! It's been a while since my last update and unfortunately I have no good new yet...

We are on our TTC #15, I had my ovulation monitored last cycle and she said all good on my side, if the sperm test #2 came back normal then we will check my tubes. We did the sperm analysis again last week and sperm count went up quite a bit now 66.28 x10^6 (21 x10^6 previous result) but the motility and morphology are still lower than normal, 26% (23% previously) and 1% (1% previously) respectively. We will see the andrologist this coming weekend and see what's the suggestion for the next step. Do you think DH's sperm quality can improve further? Do we still have a chance to conceive naturally?

I am currently not doing much to sway, I fast from 7pm+ to 6am+, eats breakfast as usual and not much snack but not strict. I havn't been drinking alcohol for months now, and due to my stomach issue my doc has suggested to cut out coffee and dairy so I have been that doing for 2 weeks now. I eat alot to hold my bmi steady at 18.7 so I guess that's not too bad? I really just want to get pregnant...

[atomic sagebrush]

Oh no I'm so sorry to hear that.

Yes, if it improved some, it can improve more, I'd just stay the course. It's fantastic news it has gotten that much better!! You guys can absolutely conceive with that.

Please be careful giving up dairy with your fertility challenges. Dairy fat is really good for helping people conceive. Can you tolerate butter?? That's the dairy fat but has no lactose, if that's what the doctor is concerned about. If you really do need to give up dairy, be sure to sub in coconut oil as a good replacement.

I would still prefer to see you a little heavier to be honest but I understand it's really hard to give up on stuff like that when you've alredy had to let go of a lot. :heart: good luck!

[onelittlewish]

We went to the doc last weekend and she seemed quite optimistic about further improvement. DH was subscribed with another 2 months of supplements and will retest if we have not conceived. So I guess theres hope!

I do think cutting out dairy delayed my ovulation this month. I always ovulate on CD14/15 in the past year and was delayed to CD18 this month. I am glad that it wasn't messed up too bad. I do still spread butter on toast when I cut out my dairy but I think the amount is nothing compared to the amount of fresh milk and cheese that I consumed before. I think I will add a small portion of milk back and see.

I have a question about BD pattern, so in the past two months, DH cannot finish when we were doing the e4d+1 on the consecutive attempt. so if it is BD, REST, BD, BD, he couldn't finish on the last BD and we ended up with every other day. Does every other day got a better chance to conceive than e4d?

[atomic sagebrush]

Great! Make it full fat dairy instead of skim or part skim!

Every other day is NOT better for conception than e4d. The reason is that every other day STILL ends up as one attempt in the fertile window in most cases. Here's why:

Every other day means you are having attempts either O-5 (way too soon) O-3 (too soon, esp. for people who are having trouble conceiving in the first place) O-1 (counts as ONE well timed attempt) and O+1 (too late, egg is dead). This is one functional attempt in the fertile window. OR, you're having attempts O-6 and O-4 (way too soon) O-2 (one well timed attempt) and O Day (often too late, esp. for people having trouble conceiving in the first place). Both of these options are really not any better than one attempt, plus many men are still somewhat depleted by every other day so it's worse for conception than e4d is, so I don't want you to SET OUT to do every other day as a replacement for e4d. Keep doing e4d in the off time.

But that's not quite what you're asking me. You're saying "because hubby can't finish three times in a row can we do every other day in the fertile window". What I would prefer to see is for you to get a Clearblue or some other fertility monitor, where it's telling you the "high" and "peak" readings and to use that to time when to drop in an extra attempt. If your husband can only have sex every other day then ideally we'd want to see an attempt on O-2 and early O Day. Second best, late on O-3 and on O-1.

Since with the fertility monitors you get (typcially) 2 days of high and then 2 days of peak, you'd want to try not to have sex on the first high day and aim at either second high and early on second peak )So O-2 and O Day) OR late on first high (O-3) and then first peak (O-1). That way you'd be in with two attempts in the fertile window and hubby could have a break in between.

[onelittlewish]

This month we got pos OPK on CD16 so our attempts were planned to be CD14, CD16 and CD17. He was too tired on CD16 so we only had e4d this month. my CM turned creamy on CD19 and temp spiked on CD20 so I probably O'd CD18 or 19. If the CM is creamy already, does that mean I have ovulated already even if my BBT hasn't spiked? That's a great advice, I will try to target O-2 and early O next month. Wish me luck this month...although I don't have much hope.

[atomic sagebrush]

The CM alone is not that reliable. In studies, even highly trained experts using Billings Method could only pin down the day of ovulation about 1/3 of the time. We see many people go to creamy CM prior to ovulation (like the day before, the egg white dries up) and many others have EW after O. In the month I conceived my daughter I had stretchy egg white for 2 days after O, and I had already conceived. CM is all about hormones (as are all symptoms) and so if your body takes a little longer to clear the hormones, or the hormones are "busy doing other things" (because your body sends out a big rush of EWCM as the fertile window opens, and then it just sort of "assumes" that the EWCM is taken care of for the month) then it can absolutely be that you have CM dry up just before O, or continue on a short time after.

Temping PLUS CM is more reliable (still only about 60% accurate to the day, tho) but with the OPK coming early too it can't really be pinned down. Your temps can be off too - one day in isolation can just be a random high or low temp, that's why we have to wait for 3 days of temps before we can confirm. Sometime between CD 17 and CD 19, my guess would be CD 18 (split the difference) but we can't know for sure.

Good luck!!!!

[onelittlewish]

So like in my case, if I O'd on CD19 and my CM dried up already, was there still a chance that the attempt on that day was viable? I thought the environment with creamy CM would be hostile and the sperms couldn't swim through?

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes there is still a chance. There is a BIG difference between the CM you see and what is actually happening up inside.

The only thing that 100% means you aren't going to conceive is whether or not the egg has been released and how long it lives for, in relation to when you had your attempt. You can't tell it from temping, you can't tell it from OPK, you can't tell it from CM, you can't tell it from O pains, and you can't even tell with all those things combined. The only way to know 100% if your attempt was too late is a blood test (and even that needs to be done at just the right moment to be accurate) and/or ultrasounds.

[onelittlewish]

Happy New Year Atomic! I had a very long trip back to my home country and was delighted to know that our government actually provides financial aid for IVF treatment. So it is now an option for us but unfortunately gender selection is illegal so the sole purpose of IVF would be to get pregnant. At the moment our plan is we would do the treatment mid year if I still cannot get pregnant by then. At the moment I am not doing anything to sway apart from eating less meat and I am still maintaining my weight during sway. With that timeline, should I change my diet now or can I wait a bit closer to date? Anything else should I do?

[atomic sagebrush]

Happy New Year's to you as well!

I wouldn't change anything just yet, although if you haven't already let's add in a prenatal or multivitamin that has about 100% of all the nutrients, and up to 250% Vitamin D, and no herbs or anything like that. You can take that 3 times a week or daily if you'd like altho of course that will be a bit more blue friendly.

Are you eating just gobs of carbs with limiting meat?? At some point we'd want to see you on more of a higher protein, slightly lower carb diet (but not very low carb) in advance of the IVF.

[onelittlewish]

I am not tracking so I am not really sure how much I am eating at the moment...normally I'd eat a small portion of meat with lunch and dinner. I wasn't limiting on purpose but I am not a huge meat lover. I can eat more if needed. I drink 3 cups of milk a day + yoghurt + cheese, lots of veggies and fruits and quite some sugary food so i guess pretty high in carbs. Should I try to gain some weight? I think I am maintaining weight because I am not snacking as much. I am pretty filled up every meal so if I need to gain weight I'd need to snack more which is very blue friendly? I'll add prenatals from now thank you so much!

[atomic sagebrush]

What is your BMI right now?

The reason I ask about the carbs is that for IVF rounds, you'll need to eat a lower, but not very low carb diet with somewhat higher intake of protein and fat than LE Diet and also using healthy carbs (think South Beach or The Zone type of thing - more in line with the alternate LE Diet with the whole grains and full fat dairy). This is because too many carbs can have a negative effect on egg quality and with IVF we need egg quality to be absolutely sky high, as good as it can be. But my thinking is, hey, maybe we should make these changes now, at least in terms of cutting back on very sugary and white carbs (if you're eating them) and having more whole grains to see if we can help you get pregnant sooner.

[onelittlewish]

Hi Atomic, sorry I totally missed your reply!

My BMI is 18.8 at the moment I gained a bit but not a lot still lower then when I started (19.4 back then). I have been eating brown rice and drinking whole fat milk the whole time but you are right that I need superb egg quality to go into IVF. Having this option gives me hope but at the same time I am so scared that I end up with only boy embryos or no embryo to transfer. I kept seeing stories where they had 20+ eggs retrieved but ended up with only 1-2 viable embryos for transfer. I couldn't help but wonder if my egg quality is also on the poorer side too since we are having a hard time to conceive. I have not done any pretesting yet so I guess we will only know when we start the process right?

Since last week, I have cut out all the white carbs and sugary food (mainly biscuits, bread and cake) and I make my own 100% wholewheat bread with nuts and seeds. I have added 1 egg and 1/2 avocado a day for some good fat and eat small portion of meat (mainly chicken breast or salmon) with every meal and drinks 1-2 cups of full fat fresh milk. No alcohol nor coffee and increased my water intake. I take prenatals, folate 1600mg and ubiquinol everyday as well. I read that vit D is good fertility, should I add that to my supplement? DHEA? What else can I do to improve my egg quality?

Husband just started working out (weight lifting) as well so he has been drinking protein shake and taking omega 3 for his workout. He also takes L-carnitine and L-arginine. I couldn't find the one a day for men 50+ here, would the general version one a day for men work?

[atomic sagebrush]

Ok. We have a potential concern on the horizon. You're too thin and if you try to cut out all refined carbs, it could very well be that weight flies off. We CANNOT have that. We need your weight to stay stable and it would be better for you to gain some back to your previous weight of 19.4. Being too thin can also mean you are less likely conceive with IVF, so we want to avoid you getting too thin if possible. It's fine for you to cut back on sugary treats, but you may NEED some carb intake to keep weight on (or even add some). Just be very very cautious not to lose weight at all. Obviously whole grains are best overall, but some people just need to include some refined carbs to keep weight on.

I don't think you need to worry about egg quality right now. Being that thin indicates to me that you've got a good insulin response and probably do not have chronically high blood sugar that would make for bad egg quality.

If I had to pick a "most likely" reason you've not conceived my most likely contender is the low weight. While you're not under my "cutoff" of 18.5, we do see people who just cannot get pregnant when their weight drops too low, even when ovulation continues. I would love to see you add a few lbs.

Vitamin D, I recommend up to 1000 IU (250%). This is often the amount in many vitamins and prenatals already. If you want to take more, I would have my levels checked beforehand.

Don't take DHEA without having your levels checked. This is VERY IMPORTANT, far more important than having your Vit. D levels checked. People who are making enough DHEA will get a kind of PCOS-lite from the DHEA and it WILL harm your egg quality. Only people who have low DHEA, that is tested and monitored by doctors, should be taking DHEA. Everyone else will see their chances actually diminish from the DHEA - and this is MOST people.

Yes, the general Men's one a day still works!!!

[onelittlewish]

Thanks for the info! I will make sure that I don't loose any weight. I have replace my white carby snacks with healthier snacks, like wholemeal toast/Ryvita flatbread with butter/cheese/peanut butter or muesli/oatmeal with milk, are those ok? Sounds like I am eating a very blue diet now but I guess what needs to be done needs to be done. I eat at 7, 1 and 6 and no snacking in between so at least there's that.

I just checked my prenatal and you are right it has 800IU of Vit D already so I don't think I need to add more and I will not take DHEA. Thank God I checked with you!

My cycles have been pretty regular (ovulating somewhere between CD14-18 and LP around 13 days) on the diet a so I never thought my weight would be the issue too. I conceived my 1st with BMI 20.2 (while travelling and gaining weight) and lost some weight after birth, preg with my 2nd with BMI 18.8. If I gain back all the weight I lost on LE diet and got pregnant does it sway strongly blue? I really want to get pregnant naturally but I still hope that I'd have a chance to get pink (or perhaps its mutually exclusive?)

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes I'm glad you checked with me too.

Those snacks are great!

That is still not a very blue friendly diet. Not at all. You're eating only 3 times a day, less calories, protein, and fat.

I agree that's enough Vit. D!

That's the thing, even when people have had regular cycles, sometimes they've not conceived when their weight was too low, so we just want to avoid that pitfall, especially the pitfall of dropping any lower.

We have had lots of people have girls after having to regain some weight (and gain weight deliberately on a blue diet, and have girls anyway). Weight loss has not been super predictive of who has a girl and who has a boy.

[onelittlewish]

I have been a week on no sugar & white carb diet now and I have been super irritable, feeling depressed and just very tired with headaches. Not sure if that's from giving up sugar or something else. So far I have gained some weight so I guess that's good progress too! I am not tracking my cal/protein/fat, should I?

[atomic sagebrush]

I actually experience that myself when I try to cut out refined carbs too. Just stay the course, it does get better over time BUT with the headaches, I think that can signify your blood sugar is low, so if you're experiencing headaches that's a sign you need to eat something.

As long as you are sure you're getting about 40% protein, 30% healthy fat, and 30% healthy carbs you don't need to track. Remember, we don't want you to be eating too many carbs, and to be getting enough protein and healthy fat, so if you need to track to ensure that's happening, then do so. If you can manage without it, then no need.

[onelittlewish]

So i tried to input what I eat in a day in the app and I've been eating about 1600 cal now but only 20% protein (80g), 35% fat (60g) and about 45% carbs. It's a lot higher in protein than in LE but still far from enough. If I need 40% protein I need about 165g on a 1600cal diet, does that sound about right? There is no way I can get that much protein without going over carbs and fat unless I eat lots of chicken breasts (like 300g a day). Is that OK?

[atomic sagebrush]

Another "combination" is to do 30% protein and fat, and 40% carbs. Or 35 g fat and protein, 30 percent carbs. or 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. If you can't get up to that amount, just eat more than you were. The point is to cut back on carb intake. You can have some flexibility with that, but you don't want to be eating gobs of carbs any more.

Some IVF doctors even suggest going onto a VERY low carb diet. 80g protein is considered by many people who are big protein people, to be a fairly low protein intake. I personally disagree with that advice for most people (and you are NOT someone who would benefit from a very low carb diet, in fact quite the opposite so even if they tell you to do that, don't!) You should be eating some meat, to get yourself a lot of protein for not a lot of calories, but if you really, truly can't get up to the 30-40% range, just do what you can to cut carbs and replace that from protein and healthy fat.

[onelittlewish]

Is agave syrup ok on the diet? I read that it is low in GI but still quite high in carbs. I use it in my milk + cocoa powder. Life is better with it but I can live without it too.

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes it's fine to continue that given your low weight and the fact that we're basically doing this as a preventative measure (and not, for example, because you have severe PCOS!)

[onelittlewish]

Hi Atomic, I just got my lab results, all in the normal range apart from my testosterone which is lower then normal. Can you help me take a look? These are taken on the 3rd day of my period.

AMH 3.29ng/ml
TSH 0.755uIU/ml
T4 7.64ug/dL
LH 4mIU/ml
FSH 5.9mIU/mL
Prolactin 9.7ng/ml
progesteron 0.16ng/ml
estradiol 32.49pg/ml
testosterone 6.71ng/dL

Did i miss any important marker?

Semen analysis results are pretty much the same, normal sperm count but lower than normal concentration, low motility (slightly improved) and low morphology (this one did not improve at all over the last 10 months).
Concentration 14x10^6/ml
count 56x10^6/ejac
PR motility 28%
morphology normal 1%

We will see the andrologist tomorrow and hopefully the fertility specialist next week to get second opinion and inquire about possible fertility treatments.

[atomic sagebrush]

You need to eat a little more fat. I know you've already been trying to eat more, but that is the reason why your testosterone is low.

The biggie is the HSG test to look for blockages in your uterus and tubes. I really urge you to get that done even though these tests have come back good.

[onelittlewish]

Hi Atomic, we did some more tests in the past week and to my surprise, my Cholesterol came back higher than normal (Total 243mg/dL and LDL 161mg/dL, the HDL is normal 77mg/dL). Is high cholesterol mainly caused by diet? I couldn't think of any food that may be the cause...too much butter and dairy? So if I need more fat, I need to get them from nuts and seeds that sort of food? I am also lower on Vit D 23.1ng/mL, should I be on Vit D supplement? What dosage is safe?

[atomic sagebrush]

High cholesterol is genetic. The idea that diet raises cholesterol has fallen out of favor.

There is no way you're getting high cholesterol from what you've been eating. HOWEVER, there is another secondary cause of high cholesterol and that is anorexia. I am very concerned when someone who has been on a diet as long as you have has high cholesterol, because I honestly cannot know if you guys are eating enough from here, and I strongly urge you to follow up with your doctor to rule out a liver issue caused by being too thin for too long.

Yes PLEASE take 1000 mg Vit. D daily for 6 weeks (or a higher dose if your doctor recommends it) and then go to 2x a week maintenance dose. That may help you get pregnant as well. Don't worry about your sway, when you're low in something the rules change.

(((please take this seriously because you need to rule out seriously damaging your health)))

[onelittlewish]

By anorexia do you mean because I am not eating enough and starving myself? I think I'm eating pretty ok...at least I never felt hungry ever since I started LE. Thank you for the heads-up though, I have booked a consultation with endocrinologist and see what is wrong with me. My dad used to have high chol but I think it was from his diet/lifestyle. After he changed his diet it was pretty much under control. I thought my diet is bland enough so it means that I can continue consuming milk/butter?

Past months we did scrotal USG and hormonal tests for DH and no significant issue found was in the result. We were referred to IVF treatment by our andrologist so I will book an appointment with IVF clinic after my AF starts in a few days. We are going back to Taiwan for the treatment where we can apply for government subsidy but unfortunately gender selection is illegal there so I think all I can do now is eat as healthy as possible so I can make more high quality eggs and hopefully get more girl embryos right?

[treens]

Wishing you the best! I hope you can get some answers and get the little girl you are dreaming of!

[onelittlewish]

Thank you Treens, it's still pretty overwhelming and I still have hard time believe we have secondary infertility. But I guess we will take baby steps at a time and pray that I get plenty good girl embies! Good luck to your attempt this month!! And so so sorry to hear about your lost...

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes, that is exactly what I mean. A woman who is very thin, eating very little, with high cholesterol may have it genetically, but anorexia/bulimia/disordered eating is also a possible cause, as is malnourishment. There is NO WAY given what you're eating that diet is causing you to have high cholesterol, and if you start limiting your diet more so, you're going to potentially exacerbate the underlying issue if it's related to your overall food intake. We need to talk to that endocrinologist about that possibility - please bring it up to him/her when you're there. Many doctors will just handwave cholesterol away as genetic but that may not be the case here.

Scientists are proving more and more that diet really isn't the root cause of high cholesterol. While some people, like your dad, who have high cholesterol, can lower it some via diet, the reason they have high cholesterol to begin with has more to do with their genes than their diet.

You probably need that fat intake to get and stay pregnant since the sex hormones are made from fat and cholesterol. I don't want you to now start starving yourself trying to eliminate fat. You need fat to stay healthy.

Not feeling hungry doesn't mean anything. Your body can adjust to inadequate food intake over time. A person can be overweight and still be malnourished. I really hope your endo is able to rule these things out and then we can decide what to do from there.

And yes, that's exactly right. We want you to be healthy as possible to be sure you can make a lot of eggs, because IVF is a numbers game and the more eggs we get, the more can be fertilized, upping our chances of getting XX!! FXFXFXFX!

[onelittlewish]

I have been adding alot of nuts, seeds, avocado, olives, lots of lean meat, veg and daily egg to my meal. Continuing whole fat milk and reducing my carbs to 1 toast and fruits. I am taking CoQ10, Vit D, folate, prenatal and omega. Really want to do cardio but no energy :( I have cut down sugar/carbs and up my protein for probably 2 months but not with the additional nuts and seeds and eggs. Is enough to boost the egg quality? If I can start the IVF cycle next month, do you think I should go ahead or wait a few more months on the diet?

Can I ask for your opinion? Do you think I should choose a clinic with high success rate but cannot choose gender, or an average clinic but can choose gender with PGT? The fact that the clinic I am going cannot choose gender makes me anxious. I think I should go for the the clinic with better lab because they can yield more viable embryos and therefore more chance of getting XX? Even if I go to a clinic where GS is applicable, without enough embryo to choose from I might end up with no XX to transfer. Am I thinking right?

[atomic sagebrush]

That is fabulous that you're eating more healthy fats.

You don't need to reduce your carbs, that's not what I am saying. You need to continue to eat carbs to keep weight on and stable, and also because being very low carb has actually made some people's cycles go missing (even when not losing weight.) That is very likely why you have no energy right now. PLEASE increase your carb intake to a normal level like we discussed where you're getting 30-40ish percent of cals from carbs, and be sure you're getting enough calories as well.

There is a HUGE difference between a swaying diet where you're eating a lot more carbs, and a healthy for IVF diet. You can have, and indeed should have, a reasonable intake of fruit and whole grains. You don't need to load up on things like gummy worms and marshmallows, but 1 piece of toast is not enough.

BAD diet for IVF: skim yogurt for breakfast, bagel with fat-free cream cheese for lunch, pasta and salad for dinner (very high carb, very low fat and low protein)

GOOD diet for IVF: whole grains, nuts, seeds, fruit and veg, full fat dairy, meat, eggs, but you don't need to be and in most cases shouldn't be eating very low carb!

I think you should go where you can choose gender. I think that at this point if you go through all this and end up with a child that is not your desired gender, you will be extremely upset and disappointed. As long as the success rates are reasonable I would personally go where I could select the gender I wanted.

[Walkerbabies]

Hi it's a good thing you are super conscious about your diet and doing everything for the sway. I hope you get your baby girl! Regarding clinics it is always best to go to one that has up-to-date tech in their labs. Like the one I'm going to in Cyprus.

[onelittlewish]

Hi it's a good thing you are super conscious about your diet and doing everything for the sway. I hope you get your baby girl! Regarding clinics it is always best to go to one that has up-to-date tech in their labs. Like the one I'm going to in Cyprus.

Thank you, have you had your cycle yet?

[onelittlewish]

Hi Atomic, I just want to thank you for urging me to get on the ivf diet asap. I never planned to start cycling this early but this journey is really about learning to cope with the unknown (and I think I am getting better at it!) and the result would not have been as good had I not listened to your advice and made all the changes. Update on my cycle so far, I had 28 eggs retrieved, 16 mature, 12 fertilized and 10 made to day 5 blactocyst. We biopsied all 10 and sent 9 of them to PGS. The gradings are 3BAx3, 6BBx3, 3BBx2, 3BCx1, 3CCx1. Doc says I get 1 out of 3 normal embryos for my age. Hopefully I can get some good girl embies :pray:

[atomic sagebrush]

WOW that's fantastic!!! fXFXFXFX for lots of pink!

[Walkerbabies]

Wow your numbers are great! Yes I started my cycle last March. The donor had egg collection this April and I will have my transfer this May. Having delays due to lining issues.

[onelittlewish]

Wow your numbers are great! Yes I started my cycle last March. The donor had egg collection this April and I will have my transfer this May. Having delays due to lining issues.

I am quite shocked that they retrieved 28 eggs too...was expecting something around 10-15 because my amh is 3.2. I think the lab did a great job developing the embryos and now just hope that there are plenty of them normal and pink.

This May you mean this month? Soon? Has your lining issues been solved? Good luck! I will have my transfer when my period starts next cycle...end of june to early july. keep me posted how it worked out!

[Walkerbabies]

I am quite shocked that they retrieved 28 eggs too...was expecting something around 10-15 because my amh is 3.2. I think the lab did a great job developing the embryos and now just hope that there are plenty of them normal and pink.

This May you mean this month? Soon? Has your lining issues been solved? Good luck! I will have my transfer when my period starts next cycle...end of june to early july. keep me posted how it worked out!

Yeah, 28 is a great number! Yes this May. My transfer is scheduled for May 31. I will be flying to Cyprus May 29. That way we will have time to relax and see the sights before transfer.

[onelittlewish]

Yeah, 28 is a great number! Yes this May. My transfer is scheduled for May 31. I will be flying to Cyprus May 29. That way we will have time to relax and see the sights before transfer.

It's a FET right? Do you take meds for this cycle prior to transfer? And you can schedule the transfer already? I was given estrogen meds and I need to take them from day 3-11 of my next cycle but they only tell me the possible transfer dates because they need to look at lining. Is it different with your procedure?

[onelittlewish]

Atomic, is there anything I can do to improve my uterus environment for implantation? I’ve been eating alot of good fats (nuts seeds salmon avocado) and alot of lean meat (chicken and fish), 1 cut of full fat fresh milk, 1 egg a day and i startef walking 1hr a day. Ive gained some weight and my bmi is 19 now (so proud of myself!!). Is there anything else I should or should not do to prep my body for embryo transfer?

[treens]

Fingers crossed for you onelittlewish. You are doing so great :))))

[atomic sagebrush]

Atomic, is there anything I can do to improve my uterus environment for implantation? I’ve been eating alot of good fats (nuts seeds salmon avocado) and alot of lean meat (chicken and fish), 1 cut of full fat fresh milk, 1 egg a day and i startef walking 1hr a day. Ive gained some weight and my bmi is 19 now (so proud of myself!!). Is there anything else I should or should not do to prep my body for embryo transfer?

Most of the stuff that is marketed as "aiding implantation" does nothing at all, and when people take too high a dose or take many things all together it can actually be harmful. Please run everything past me before doing it as some of the supplements are actively harmful. Eating a lot of good food and following the doc's guidelines for how long to rest after transfer are most important. Your body knows how to implant a pregnancy. If you really want to do something you can eat fresh pineapple including the core and the brazil nuts, which are harmless.

I am so happy you gained a little weight back!

[onelittlewish]

I got my PGS result back and had a teleconsultation with my doc on saturday. The appointment was rescheduled last min so had the call in my car. I hope I heard the results correctly...out of the 9 tested embryos 6 came back normal, 2 mosaic and 1 abnormal. If I heard correctly I have 2 normal girl embryos! Not a whole lot but at least there's 2 chances of getting my girl. So my new cycle starts in two weeks or so and we will start my FET cycle. Est transfer sometime early July. The doc says there's 70% chance of success and he is pretty confident that I will get preg. I cannot believe it's happening!

[atomic sagebrush]

Oh gosh that's great news!! Please keep us posted and wishing you the very best of luck!