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  1. #1
    Dreamer

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    Update If you get a BFN w/GSN embryos, can you EVER get a BFP?????

    Hey all, long time no see. I've been busy, unfortunately not in a good way. Had my first PGD/IVF cycle. The plan was a day 5 biopsy with GSN and go straight to frozen.

    The ER was December 15th. I was on 300iu Bravelle and 75iu Menopur. They were going to lower my dose when I got a high AMH score, but I was worried I'd underrespond because of my lack of response to low doses of drugs during my two MS/IUI cycles that didn't work three years ago. Anyway, they never lowered my dose and I ended up with 34 eggs, 26 mature, and 20 fertilized, then none of them were expanded enough by day 5 to biopsy, so they grew them out to day 6 and I got five blasts biopsied and frozen. Two weeks later, we found out four out of five were GSN normal, and two of those were normal XX.

    ET was February 23rd. I did a natural FET, which means no real hormone drugs until after I O on my own, then PIO shots and Estrace. Both embryos survived the thaw and we transferred both. My beta is tomorrow, 12dp6dt, but I've been testing every morning w/FMU since 8dp6dt and it's been BFN every time, not even a shadow of a line. So I'm definitely not pg.

    I feel so defeated. I thought the biggest hurdle was getting GSN normal embryos of the desired gender, and we did that. I'm relatively young (still 29) and they gave me 70% odds of it working. How did I come out on the wrong side of that? I did worry about the huge number of eggs ruining the egg quality (in fact, this may sound familiar as I believe Kristin was ghost-posting for me back in December during my ER cycle, thanks lady if you're reading this ), but if they were genetically normal and grew to blast, isn't that enough? Or could they still have been fried, plus maybe a little too old and didn't like being out of the uterus that long?

    I'm just worried because I remember while researching PGD back when I was pg w/DS3 two years ago that GSN-normal embryos were like the holy grail, and it seemed like anyone who had them automatically got successfully pg except rare cases. Because I didn't, does that mean I'm way more likely to never get this to work for me?

    And what would you recommend for my next cycle? Obviously I'm going to take a lower dose of drugs, but I'm also hoping to do a fresh cycle w/day 3 biopsy and GSN. My clinic really wants people to do day five biopsy, but the fact mine took so long to make it to blast makes me wonder if that didn't hurt them, plus the two month plus wait between ER and ET is gruelling. I know it's not that much in the long run but there have been so many several-month waits in this whole process that I'd like to avoid them whenever possible at this point.

  2. #2
    Dream Vet

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    I'm so sorry, I hope you get a nice surprise on beta day. Why did you do a natural FET? Was your lining thick enough prior to ET? See, the medicated FET is much more predictive because you are on meds from the getgo and there are no questions about when exactly you ovulated, is the thickness enough, etc., etc. Back when I had to choose which way to go, I opted for the medicated and everything was folowing a calendar. Needless to say that I got pregnant, but lost the baby at the end of the first trimester due to unknown chromosome issues, so it wasn't me the reason for failure. There is no much monitoring and ultrasounds in the natural FET, so it's more of a guessing game. You do spare yourself from another round of Lupron shots, but at the end you know when, what and why. Good luck on beta, you are still in the game-PUPO untill proven otherwise!

  3. #3
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    So sorry you've been getting bfn on the stix,its so not fair after everything we go through. Most ladies here believe gsn bfn's should be looked into further with immune testing,uterine testing and other exploratory tests before another cycle and transfer.Hopefully the experts in that area will help you.
    I truly hope you have a miracle at beta, otherwise i hope you get to the bottom of it.
    Best wishes

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by purpledream View Post
    I'm so sorry, I hope you get a nice surprise on beta day. Why did you do a natural FET? Was your lining thick enough prior to ET? See, the medicated FET is much more predictive because you are on meds from the getgo and there are no questions about when exactly you ovulated, is the thickness enough, etc., etc. Back when I had to choose which way to go, I opted for the medicated and everything was folowing a calendar. Needless to say that I got pregnant, but lost the baby at the end of the first trimester due to unknown chromosome issues, so it wasn't me the reason for failure. There is no much monitoring and ultrasounds in the natural FET, so it's more of a guessing game. You do spare yourself from another round of Lupron shots, but at the end you know when, what and why. Good luck on beta, you are still in the game-PUPO untill proven otherwise!
    That wasn't my experience with a natural FET. I was monitored very closely and they knew exactly when I ovulated and how thick my lining was. Your hormones are already present to support a pregnancy, so there's no need for shots.

  5. #5
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    nuthinbutpink's Avatar
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    The pregnancy rates are basically the same for medicated and non-medicated. It comes down to what your clinic does best- what are they used to doing to yield the best FET rates. My clinic recommended medicated. They have an awesome FET rate. So, I went with what they recommended. I think it makes no difference though. Non medicated just means many more appointment to pinpoint O and that didn't work for me anyway.

    We've had a run of 24 chromosome tested BFNs. Not all GSN. CGH has been used too. Carole in the Aak the Expert section has weighed in on this on here and in her blog and the embryo is only part of the equation. There is a huge X Factor that nobody understands. Perhaps there is an issue with immunity as some have discovered- one member discovered a uterine issue via MRI, others through blood tests.

    I think the way you did your cycle is the best effort you can make- day 5 biopsy with a FET. Lots of studies are showing that FETs have a much better pregnancy rate.

    Everything matters though. How well the clinic handles the embryos, where they are in the catheter, how fast they are inserted seems to even effect the outcome. So, it may just be rotten luck. I know immunity seems to be the flavor of the day and it seems to really help some but it may be bad luck too. I would try SETs for that very reason. The more attempts at transfers you have, it will work out at some point.

    I'm sorry about the BFN. It's such a grueling all consuming process and very defeating when you did everything right.
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  6. #6
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    FWIW, at your age, that many normals is awesome. I don't think your eggs were fried. You just had a great response and some of them were not mature which is 100% normal when you yield a big amount.
    Mom to

    and my IVF/PGD

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  7. #7
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    I can totally see your frustration, how disappointing and I really hope Beta surprises you.

    With GSN embryos, I have been led to believe that the chances of them sticking are just that much higher, but it doesn't always work.

    I would definately ask your dr what their thought was on it all, I think we have found here, that most that put in 2 GSN's- either get pregnant with both or none at all.

    I would probably go to somewhere they would do day 3 testing, I really like the idea of testing them then and then if they are a bit iffy retesting on day 5. I know there is a big move for day 5 testing, but I just think for a lot of us, the growth to day 5 or 6 may be just a little taxing for our embryos.

    The clinic I am with now, VERY controversially will only biopsy hatching blasts, and even then they have to be grade 1 or 2, even if they are a hatching blast and are grade 3 by day 6, they won't biopsy it, the won't even look at a blast. They just don't think that if they have grown to that stage by day 6, they won't make a very good FET. Like I said controversial, but their FET stats on tested embryos are exceptional.

    I would though look into hormone/lining/immune issues before having another transfer xoxo

  8. #8
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    hi, i know how u feel, i also had a gsn xy and thought that if im pregnant ill be laughing as never had problems carrying babys or concieving, i did get bfp but turned to chemical....now that i couldnt understand as how can a perfect embroy checked for all chromosones turn to a chemical, but as some pointed out it could be a immune issue..but in your case it (if ur not pregnant) means it didnt even implant right? so that means its not really to do would immune issues? i might be wrong? but no matter what its still is a 70% and there will always be the 30% that will not get a bfp...but i have seen many get bfn but go onto get bfp on their 2nd or 3rd attempt so it def does not mean it wont work the next time....xx

  9. #9
    Dreamer

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    Quote Originally Posted by purpledream View Post
    Why did you do a natural FET? Was your lining thick enough prior to ET?
    My doctor recommended it for me because I O on my own. My lining was definitely thick enough at 11mm. And they monitored me a lot with bloodwork and u/s. But the day I Oed I Oed before they could trigger me. I'd just done monitoring two days before and my follicle was at 16mm, then there was no follicle. IDK if that means anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by glory View Post
    I know there is a big move for day 5 testing, but I just think for a lot of us, the growth to day 5 or 6 may be just a little taxing for our embryos.

    The clinic I am with now, VERY controversially will only biopsy hatching blasts, and even then they have to be grade 1 or 2, even if they are a hatching blast and are grade 3 by day 6, they won't biopsy it, the won't even look at a blast. They just don't think that if they have grown to that stage by day 6, they won't make a very good FET.
    I really really really hope that's the case for my embryos. If I was at your clinic, none of my females would have been biopsied. They were rated BC and CC, though I'm not sure what that would mean on the scale of 1 2 and 3, I think they might have been 3s. And hey, they didn't make it, so maybe your clinic is onto something. But oh my gosh, how many no transfer cycles would there be if everyone did that???? That's why I think I can't do this straight to frozen thing again.

    Quote Originally Posted by nuthinbutpink View Post

    We've had a run of 24 chromosome tested BFNs. Not all GSN. CGH has been used too. Carole in the Aak the Expert section has weighed in on this on here and in her blog and the embryo is only part of the equation. There is a huge X Factor that nobody understands. Perhaps there is an issue with immunity as some have discovered- one member discovered a uterine issue via MRI, others through blood tests.

    .

    Have any of those BFNs come back and gotten BFPs that stick? That's what I'm afraid of, that this was some sort of litmus test for ever getting pg w/PGD that I failed spectacularly. I had a hysteroscopy and the doctor said my uterus looked perfect. I hope that's enough. Is immunity more of an issue with chem pgs with GSN like babynumber3 said? Because that is really scary to think about. I'm really near my breaking point with all these failures, six years of trying with everything I've got and just failing failing failing. My oldest swaying opposite child will be five this year, and Thursday (the day of my consult with the doc about this failed cycle) is the three year anniversary of my first failed MS/IUI, and still no DD.

    Quote Originally Posted by nuthinbutpink View Post
    Everything matters though. How well the clinic handles the embryos, where they are in the catheter, how fast they are inserted seems to even effect the outcome. So, it may just be rotten luck. I know immunity seems to be the flavor of the day and it seems to really help some but it may be bad luck too. I would try SETs for that very reason. The more attempts at transfers you have, it will work out at some point.
    I didn't want to do SET because I greedily dreamed of twins. Now I feel stupid for ever thinking I could get one baby out of the first cycle. If it comes down to luck, then I'm very very sure this will never happen, as the only kind of luck I ever seem to have now is of the bad variety! Sorry for being such a sad sack, but I'm extremely beaten down.
    Last edited by Cultured Pearl; March 6th, 2012 at 02:58 PM.

  10. #10
    Dreamer

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    Totally negative beta, so at least it's not a chemical pg.

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