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  1. #1
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    Second trimester missed miscarriage

    EDIT: I realise this thread should probably have been in the TTC after a loss forum. Can't seem to delete it...

    Hi,

    Feeling lost and confused. I could use some help.

    After a non-strict girl sway I got pregnant in the 6th cycle with a boy.
    Unfortunately his tiny heart stopped at 14w5d, and we discovered it in week 16. I gave birth to him at 16w5.

    We are now ready to try again and awaiting first ovulation (today is two weeks after his birth. I have tested completely negative on HPT for a couple of days now so hopefully my hcg is down to normal)

    I think I would like to try a pink sway again but I have issues with my luteal phase.
    Based on a total of 13 cycles TTC and using OPK's I have a luteal phase at about 8 days, occasionally 9 days, with spotting from 6-7 DPO. Despite of that I have had BFP's at 6th cycle, 2nd cycle (both healthy boys), 2nd cycle (BIO) and 6th cycle (the miscarriage).

    During my pregnancy I took prenatal, fish oil, cal+mag+vitamin D, iron, have gained about 12 pounds (pregnancy makes my ravenous!) and did very little to no exercise due to SPD from week 8.
    I'm worried that a pregnancy and a bluefriendly lifestyle till 16w5d would sway strongly blue but at the same time I love my angel boy and would like to get pregnant again asap... But this is (hopefully, if I don't miscarry again) my very last chance at a girl!

    Should I do the PCOS LE diet? Are 3 meals a day OK? I can't seem to get enough calories with only two meals a day. Should I supplement with vitamin C?
    Since I do have concieved my doctor isn't worried about my luteal phase - in fact she doesn't seem to believe me...

    I have a question about the calorie defficit.
    Are the 1500-1800 kcals based on an average woman burning 2000 kcals a day? I typically burn 2400-2500 kcals a day. Theses numbers are based on my Garmin watch (which I KNOW is an estimate) and a big weight-loss last year, where I counted calories with an eye to my watch's estimate. I can see that the watch hasn't been far off in how many calls I burned.
    Should I try to be 200-500 kcals under my actually burned calories (I don't know the English word for this "equilibrium intake") or stick to 1500-1800 kcals which is 600-1000 kcals under. My bmi is now 26, so weight-loss is fine but I'm afraid too big a deficit is bad for my progesterone/luteal phase.

    Sorry if I'm all over the place - that's just how I am most days since the birth...
    Last edited by Jossi; November 25th, 2021 at 09:21 AM.

  2. #2
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    That's fine, we don't worry much about who posts what where.

    First off, I'm so sorry to hear of your loss. and ((((hugs))))

    Did they have any explanation as to why your baby passed? That is relatively unusual, so I just wanted to be sure they have investigated.

    Before we get started, can you fill me in on why you think you have a short LP?? How are you determining ovulation?? I have quite a lot of people who think they have a short LP but are using apps or OPK (which are not always right) or some other method that is misleading them about when they are actually ovulating and leading them to think their LP is shorter than it really is. So I want to be sure what we're actually dealing with beforehand so I don't advise you incorrectly. I promise, though, that even if you have a short LP, that had absolutely nothing to do with a 14 week loss, so don't worry that is playing a part. Whatever went wrong, it wasn't from a short LP or low progesterone.

    I would have you wean off (don't drop, but wean off) the supplements you were taking. Can you please tell me the brand of prenatal and the dose of the fish oil?? Some prenatals may have herbal components in them that are not safe during pregnancy (some of them have so many harmful things I do not understand how they continue selling them, but supplements are not regulated well) and also too much fish oil can possibly contribute to losses too.

    I always recommend the alternate LE Diet after a loss. Absolutely do follow that. Both 2 and 3 meals are equally allowed on LE Diet. I give you guys the option because some people have different metabolisms and eating styles, but it's fine to have 3 meals and just eat the first meal a bit later. I always ate three. Some people feel stuffed on three and prefer 2. DO whichever works better for you.

    Why would you supplement with Vitamin C? What reason?

    Do not do a bunch of math equations to figure out how many calories to eat and how many you burned. In fact, take off your watch for the duration of the sway (this type of worrying about details and numbers and monitoring things so closely can really hurt a sway). Start off eating 1800-2000 cals, 50-60 g protein and fat (not counting protein and fat in fruit and veg, and NOTHING not even calories in low carb vegetables) and see how it goes. You will probably lose weight since your BMI is higher and you were just pregnant. (this has nothing to do with how many cals you burn, and please stop monitoring that!) I always like you guys to start off higher than you think you'll need in the long term and see. If you are losing weight on that cal intake, keep going with it. If you plateau, then you can drop down to 1500-1800 but continue eating the 50-60 g pro and fat.

    To answer your question more specifically, I do not like you guys tracking the calories you supposedly burn and then adjusting your diet on that basis. It's too control freakish. Please just use the basic guidelines (1800-2000 then drop to 1500-1800 only if needed) and let your weight loss be your guide. if you lose weight too fast, eat more, if you don't lose weight, eat less, exercise more, or both. There is NO REASON to sit around doing algebra equations every day to see if you burned calories or not and it will totally undermine your sway. We want you to stop thinking about things like this.

    At BMI 26 there is very very little chance you're going to mess up your cycle even if you WERE to go to 1500-1800. But I do like you guys to start off higher than you think you'll need, so you have something to cut back to (since it's very common to lose weight quickly, then plateau later on.) So yes, please do start off at 1800-2000 cals, see how it goes, and only then later on if you need to, cut back to 1500-1800.

    Oh and one more thing, your luteal phase is probably not going to be harmed at all by losing some weight and may actually be improved by it. What you're describing (if you are having a short LP as you think you are) sounds to me like some underlying PCO-tendencies. So your body may be making testosterone instead of the female sex hormones and that may be causing the short LP. By correcting your diet somewhat and losing a bit of weight, that will improve your insulin response and help your hormones to regulate themselves. There are, of course, other reasons for a short LP that have to do wtih being too thin, but at BMI 26 that's a good spot and it is unlikely that's why your LP is off - sounds more like PCO-tendencies which will be helped by a bit of weight loss.
    !!! Questions?? Check out the NEW and improved Complete Index !!!

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  3. #3
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    Thank you for the hugs!

    We don't now yet why he died. They have done an autopsy but we will have to wait 1-1,5 months for the answers.
    It is very unlikely it was something chromosomal though, since I had a CVS which showed normal chromosomes (and no, nothing whatsoever indicates that the CVS itself made me miscarriage)
    My bloodwork turned out normal too.

    I have done OPK's at a total of 14-15 cycles. Some of them TTC (different pregnancies), some of them just for curiosity's sake. 1-2 a day in the window where ovulation would probably happen. I have always had clear positives/LH surges and no reason to think the OPK's wasn't reasonable accurate.

    Weight/ weight-loss: I have actually always been within normal BMI range when testing for ovulation - and finding the short LP. It's only now, after the last pregnancy (and between two pregnancies where I didn't use OPK's) my BMI have been higher.
    Just to let you know that my ovulation "data" is based on normal range BMI...
    I simply don't know what my current weight would mean for my LP.

    A part from the short LP, my cycles are short, 23-25 days, and I normally spot 2-3 days before AF. (and that is true for all my cycles, regardless of my weight) That makes me think I may have some kind of luteal phase defect.
    And just to be clear I'm not worried that this contributed to my miscarriage. Maybe to my bio in April though. It's just that I would like to do something if possible in order to get pregnant again fast.

    My prenatals are a Danish drugstore brand, Apovit. You probably don't know them but they don't contain any herbs and are thoroughly controlled.
    Fish oil were 2700 mg (EPA 1250 mg, DHA 500 mg, other omega-3 250 mg) 5-6 days a week.

    Vitamin C: I have read that vitamin C could support progesterone and therefore potentially could help lengthen the LP.

    Thank you for the help on calories! I will try to stop tracking and being a control freak. It's just that I tend to actually eat too few calories when only eating twice a day, so tracking have been a help in my latest sway to eat enough. But three meals on alternate LE will help with that too!
    Last edited by Jossi; November 27th, 2021 at 06:39 PM.

  4. #4
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    Oh, and one more thing; should I take zink? Think I've read somewhere that you advice zink after a loss?

    I have actually weaned off both my prenatals and fish oil (as in: I took them on/off after giving birth, thinking my body could use some them to heal but also didn't like to be reminded that I wasn't pregnant anymore...)

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    Hey there,

    Your post caught my attention, first of all I wanted to say Iím SO sorry for your loss, I hope your healing. I too know the feeling of a loss. My 4th pregnancy also ended in a Missed Miscarriage in April. I lost my baby girl at 15 weeks and 4 days, she had stopped growing around 13 weeks. I did the NIPT test everything had come back normal and they also did a postmortem on the fetus, and there were no other abnormalities. I guess she wasnít for this world.. we already have 2 girls and a DS. I also followed a mild HE diet.. Iím also thinking to Ttc again, feeling ever so nervous, and donít know how long it will take us. All 4 of my pregnancyís I got pregnant either first or second month.

    When are you hoping to Ttc?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  7. #6
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    Hi,

    Thank you. I'm so very sorry to hear you have been through it too
    I hope you and your partner gets the help you need/needed.

    Was it hard to accept that there seemingly wasn't a reason why she died? I'm trying to prepare my self for just that but don't know how I will react if they don't find something wrong with our son.

    We really do want to start TTC as soon as possible (I'm still bleeding lightly/spotting). At the same time I feel a bit guilty for moving forward too fast. But I know that a new baby won't replace the son we lost. He will always be our third baby but the dreams and visions for our future hasn't changed and they still involve 3 living children.

    I resonate with being nervous about a new pregnancy. We have really lost that feeling of thinking a pregnancy means a baby to take home, right?
    I hope that your next pregnancy, whenever you decide to try again, will happen fast and end with a baby to keep
    I'm here if you need to talk!

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  9. #7
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    Can you tell me more about when you're getting the OPK in relation to when the spotting starts, and when your period comes?? Sorry, I can't quite work out the timeline on that.

    Regardless of what your weight was in the past, my point is that here and now, going to somewhat reduced calories should not mess up anything having to do with your cycle. Even if your LP was shorter than average when your weight was different, here and now it is absolutely fine to reduce calories somewhat. It is not going to create the situation you mention, where you cut calories and get a shorter LP. That typically happens only when people drop below BMI 20 or so, and only very very rarely when people lose a LOT of weight super quickly through crash dieting (like, under 1200 cals a day and very low fat) and we won't have you do that.

    Luteal phase defects are not something you just have - there's always a cause. Either the cause is PCO-tendencies or else it's because people lose too much weight - because both these states interfere with hormone production. So we'll have you switch to the alternate PCOS-type diet in case that was the cause, and as I mentioned above we don't need to worry about you getting too thin to start with (and hopefully you will be pregnant before we would), so we're going to address both possible causes and see what happens.

    I can't manage to get the nutrient data to come up on the Apovit Gravid unfortunately, so I hope that they have about 100% recommended value of nutrients and not any more than that.

    That is WAY WAY WAY too much fish oil. I strongly suggest you not go back onto those supplements EVER. That is over five times more than the maximum I recommend for anyone during pregnancy. Please do not ever take more than 500 mg fish oil/DHA during pregnancy, and for many women, 200-250 mg is better. Too much fish oil can interfere with cholesterol which the baby needs for development, and most importantly, it is a powerful blood thinner that makes your blood unable to clot normally. It has also been shown in animals to cause harm to unborn babies when taken during pregnancy at too high a dose. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2839050/ I understand that people will tell you it's safe, and that they do not have warnings on the supplements, but these people are wrong and in future pregnancies I strongly advise you to stick with no more than 500 mg daily, and more like 250 is likely safest (and will still give you the benefits!!)

    Taking supplements to lengthen LP rarely works because the cause of short LP is rarely any nutrient deficiency. We'll correct the causes of why the LP is short instead, since the Vitamin C doesn't work and may undermine your sway.

    Yes just go to three meals. It's been a longtime misunderstanding that people have that you can only eat two meals a day on LE Diet, it never was that way not even back at the very start! You just push back the first meal even if it's just an hour or two, and that will still help your sway.
    !!! Questions?? Check out the NEW and improved Complete Index !!!

    If you appreciate my help with your sway plan, please consider a donation:

    https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=C92U9TVWTRTDQ

  10. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jossi View Post
    Oh, and one more thing; should I take zink? Think I've read somewhere that you advice zink after a loss?

    I have actually weaned off both my prenatals and fish oil (as in: I took them on/off after giving birth, thinking my body could use some them to heal but also didn't like to be reminded that I wasn't pregnant anymore...)
    You were very likely getting zinc from your prenatal and your diet during pregnancy (and the LE Diet does provide some zinc too, particularly the PCOS-type alt. diet). When I have people add zinc, it's only when they've been on a very restrictive diet for many months and had an early loss where they hadn't yet normalized on diet. You don't need it and I wouldn't add it.
    !!! Questions?? Check out the NEW and improved Complete Index !!!

    If you appreciate my help with your sway plan, please consider a donation:

    https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=C92U9TVWTRTDQ

  11. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jossi View Post
    Hi,

    Thank you. I'm so very sorry to hear you have been through it too
    I hope you and your partner gets the help you need/needed.

    Was it hard to accept that there seemingly wasn't a reason why she died? I'm trying to prepare my self for just that but don't know how I will react if they don't find something wrong with our son.

    We really do want to start TTC as soon as possible (I'm still bleeding lightly/spotting). At the same time I feel a bit guilty for moving forward too fast. But I know that a new baby won't replace the son we lost. He will always be our third baby but the dreams and visions for our future hasn't changed and they still involve 3 living children.

    I resonate with being nervous about a new pregnancy. We have really lost that feeling of thinking a pregnancy means a baby to take home, right?
    I hope that your next pregnancy, whenever you decide to try again, will happen fast and end with a baby to keep
    I'm here if you need to talk!
    Honestly, I didnít find that hard to accept as much as I thought it would.. the hardest part was the suddenly empty womb I was left with and then waking upto bleeding after the D&C procedure.

    I can truly relate, pregnancy isnít always about bring a baby home. For its taken the innocence away. The whole Ttc journey and pregnancy journey, seems so daunting and overwhelming at times. I had 3 perfectly happy and healthy pregnancies. Dh is sort of done but Iím working on trying to for another we tried in October but I never got pregnant. I was away for 3 months, never used my usual pre seed and didnít track ovulation. Iím hoping December we can try. AF is due on Thursday so hopefully we can start.. about you trying so soon, itís never too soon or late, if thatís what makes you complete then by all means you should go ahead. I wanted to try soon as but I was abroad the entire summer and September.

    Hope everything goes well for you!


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  13. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomic sagebrush View Post
    Can you tell me more about when you're getting the OPK in relation to when the spotting starts, and when your period comes?? Sorry, I can't quite work out the timeline on that.

    Regardless of what your weight was in the past, my point is that here and now, going to somewhat reduced calories should not mess up anything having to do with your cycle. Even if your LP was shorter than average when your weight was different, here and now it is absolutely fine to reduce calories somewhat. It is not going to create the situation you mention, where you cut calories and get a shorter LP. That typically happens only when people drop below BMI 20 or so, and only very very rarely when people lose a LOT of weight super quickly through crash dieting (like, under 1200 cals a day and very low fat) and we won't have you do that.

    Luteal phase defects are not something you just have - there's always a cause. Either the cause is PCO-tendencies or else it's because people lose too much weight - because both these states interfere with hormone production. So we'll have you switch to the alternate PCOS-type diet in case that was the cause, and as I mentioned above we don't need to worry about you getting too thin to start with (and hopefully you will be pregnant before we would), so we're going to address both possible causes and see what happens.

    I can't manage to get the nutrient data to come up on the Apovit Gravid unfortunately, so I hope that they have about 100% recommended value of nutrients and not any more than that.

    That is WAY WAY WAY too much fish oil. I strongly suggest you not go back onto those supplements EVER. That is over five times more than the maximum I recommend for anyone during pregnancy. Please do not ever take more than 500 mg fish oil/DHA during pregnancy, and for many women, 200-250 mg is better. Too much fish oil can interfere with cholesterol which the baby needs for development, and most importantly, it is a powerful blood thinner that makes your blood unable to clot normally. It has also been shown in animals to cause harm to unborn babies when taken during pregnancy at too high a dose. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2839050/ I understand that people will tell you it's safe, and that they do not have warnings on the supplements, but these people are wrong and in future pregnancies I strongly advise you to stick with no more than 500 mg daily, and more like 250 is likely safest (and will still give you the benefits!!)

    Taking supplements to lengthen LP rarely works because the cause of short LP is rarely any nutrient deficiency. We'll correct the causes of why the LP is short instead, since the Vitamin C doesn't work and may undermine your sway.

    Yes just go to three meals. It's been a longtime misunderstanding that people have that you can only eat two meals a day on LE Diet, it never was that way not even back at the very start! You just push back the first meal even if it's just an hour or two, and that will still help your sway.

    Reg. OPKs:

    Based on 5 months of our latest TTC (not counting the cycle I think I caught a BIO/my cycle was wierd):

    I got positives OPK at CD 16-16-15-15-16
    Spotting started at CD 21-21-23-23-23.
    Cycle length: 24-24-23-24-24.
    23-25 days cycles.

    Hope this makes sense!

    Thank you so much for listening and helping! I won't take that much fishoil, if/when I get pregnant again, and I won't take Vitamin C or zink either.
    The Apovit are within Danish recommended daily intake. I think some of the vitamins/minerals are below the US dosage, and I really doubt any of them are over.

    Great. The alternate and even normal LE feels easy to commit to giving that three meals er OK. (And since non-pregnant I'm a vegetarian and loves loong walks anyway).

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