Does freshest sperm always win out over older sperm for timing?

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Originally Posted by fourwildones

ITA, that's what confusing to me. If sperm live the same amount of time and swim at the same speed, as some have purported, why bother with doing anything but day before or day of O, and controlling for all the other variables... (diet, CM, ions, supplements). The NEJM article is what is getting me to think it doesn't matter, ( in fact they say "although only 6 percent of the pregnancies could be firmly attributed to sperm that were three or more days old. ")

My concern with this study is that it IS a small sample. I would want to see a sample with thousands of women to feel more confident...anyone know of any more studies?

Here's the full text though. It's an intersting read. Apologies if this has been posted already.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056...99512073332301

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This is very interesting! Don't apologies for posting anything! I think the more time we post something the higher the chance that more ppl see it and can read it!It's good help!:agree:

So maybe ph and timing are just very low in the % that it helps.... maybe the diet at the time is the biggest factor. With DS's I ate a ton of salt, real sugar, greasy foods, and to much protein and got boys because my body was ready for boys.

The old sperm wait in the cervical crypts for the egg (if I remember correctly from IG....and if that was even correct info). They are "awakened" and then have to go through capatization or whatever it is where they shed their outer layer so they can penetrate the egg. Not sure if those guys would make it first or fresh sperm, but I think the reasoning behind frequent bd is to lower sperm count (for a girl), and less bd is for optimal sperm count (for a boy), but the theory for anyone just trying to get pg is maybe the "more bullets in the chamber" theory with sperm. Why not do it a few days and have better chances? But, from looking at a zillion FF charts, I don't think frequency matters unless your DH has count issues. Interesting question!

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Originally Posted by fourwildones

I am trying to figure out why one would do multiple BD up to O-is it beucause we are not sure of O and want to hedge our bets? If we were to do O-3 and O-1, would the sperm closest to the day of O always win out? Or are the older sperm there in the F. tube wating and possibly beating out the sperm of a BD on -1 or O day?

I have just purchased a CB fertility monitor as it is how I got pg with DD 8 yrs ago, but looking at miy chart from then I BD'd every other day, sometimes every day, past O, right through my peak. Would the sperm closest to O always win, in which case I would have conceived her on O day?

Am thinking of foregoing timing comlpetely and just going with the 1 day I get the first egg on my monitor once it gets here or the first really dark OPK (even though I know some think this is boy territory).

again sorry if this hass been asked already!

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No, and in fact if you BD before O and then right at O, the OLDER sperm probably win because sperm takes 4 hours to capacitate. Uncapacitated sperm cannot fertilize an egg.

I put very little stock into timing, if it sways, it doesn't sway much and some of the other things we can do have much more "sway power".

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Originally Posted by purplepoet20

Shettles Method and other studies say that sperm could live up to 4-7 days in the female body. Male swimmers are believed to not live as long but girl swimmers can live a day or two longer.

For conceiving a boy you want to be 1-2 days before O or on O so the "faster" male sperm will reach the egg first. Eating and drinking some foods are believed to make the male swimmers hyper so they will swim faster.

For conceiving a girl it is best to DTD 3-5 days before O so the male swimmers die off and the girl swimmers can just hang out until the egg comes. A low ph shocks or kills the male swimmers while allowing the female swimmers to move on.

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But Shettles has been completely debunked. Shettles mistook capacitated and uncapacitated sperm for Y and X sperm and thought that Y were small and X were big, but they're actually almost identical in size. They are also equally hardy and long-lived and the entire pH thing was based on the idea that Y sperm are small and weak and X sperm are big and strong.

NONE of it is true. http://genderdreaming.com/forum/show...rm-and-Y-sperm

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Originally Posted by atomic sagebrush

No, and in fact if you BD before O and then right at O, the OLDER sperm probably win because sperm takes 4 hours to capacitate. Uncapacitated sperm cannot fertilize an egg.

I put very little stock into timing, if it sways, it doesn't sway much and some of the other things we can do have much more "sway power".

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This is very depressing, but I remember reading somewhere that in a "gang rape" situation- where a woman has had multiple partners in a short period of time, it was always the last man who had sex with her who ended up fathering any offspring.
However, this was in the context of a study in which there are sperm whose job it is to "fight" other sperm, barrier style. Maybe they block old sperm in the crypts? Perhaps sperm from the same man would not fight itself?

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Originally Posted by fourwildones

I had assumed Shettles had been disproven-based on the research I have read, that it may have some bearing on gender becasue alkalinity increases near ovulation, but assuming one controls for those factoris via diet and pH (i.e. I was inclinded to think that as long as I keep pH low and CM to a minimum through zyrtec and diet) that timing wouldn't matter so much, if at all (I know it is condsidered the least imortant of the swaying facotrs). I feel like I have read so many studies indicating timing doesn't matter, and shettes success rate is about 50% from what I have read and heard-so my inclination is that other than O+12 (which is risky for me as I am older) I am starting to think timing will not make a difference. (I have 2 girls and 2 boys, and both were concieved DTD close to O...)Not sure if others feel similarly? Or is shettles more supported than I thought?

And the original question also is, if shettles IS onto something-would the sperm closest to DTD still win out or is it worrth doing an earlier attempt at O-3 because that sperm that is left is indeed mostly X and might be there waiting?

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Well, the question is, does alkalinity sway because X and Y "like" different levels of pH or does it sway because ALL sperm thrive under alkaline circumstances, and sperm count sways in some way that we don't understand.

The pH of semen is in the 7's as is EWCM. Sperm, both X and Y sperm, thrive in this pH. It makes NO sense to me at all that optimal pH for sperm survival is in the 7's, but for some strange reason X "like" very low pH and Y "like" very high pH.

I personally agree with what you're saying above, you can totally control for most factors (such as sperm count, alkalinity, drying up of CM etc) totally aside from timing. When people talk about timing, it's like they think they are adding onto their sway, but I really do think that timing is just a second rate, testosterone-increasing way to do things we can do better in other, easier, more reliable ways.

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Originally Posted by atomic sagebrush

Well, the question is, does alkalinity sway because X and Y "like" different levels of pH or does it sway because ALL sperm thrive under alkaline circumstances, and sperm count sways in some way that we don't understand.

The pH of semen is in the 7's as is EWCM. Sperm, both X and Y sperm, thrive in this pH. It makes NO sense to me at all that optimal pH for sperm survival is in the 7's, but for some strange reason X "like" very low pH and Y "like" very high pH.

I personally agree with what you're saying above, you can totally control for most factors (such as sperm count, alkalinity, drying up of CM etc) totally aside from timing. When people talk about timing, it's like they think they are adding onto their sway, but I really do think that timing is just a second rate, testosterone-increasing way to do things we can do better in other, easier, more reliable ways.

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I am very taken with the chemoattractants that are barely understood in the reproductive process- between sperm and egg, and between blastocyst and uterine lining, because these cells "talk" to each other, and signal to each other how to find each other. I wonder if there is some Trivers-Willard style understanding an egg might have of "sniffing" a lower amount of sperm in general, or your body somehow "sniffing" less sperm. It would think the male was somehow unhealthy, or not in ideal health, and would then want the egg to attract an "x" sperm, since girls do better in tough times. The alkalinity or acidity would just be a tool for creating the low or high sperm count needed to create the right signals.

Ok so Atomic.... what do we do then if everything is being disproven???

Would a TBM work if I lowered the ph?
Does any type of timing work?
Does the diet or pills even really work, so should I save money and forget them?

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Originally Posted by lindi

This is very depressing, but I remember reading somewhere that in a "gang rape" situation- where a woman has had multiple partners in a short period of time, it was always the last man who had sex with her who ended up fathering any offspring.
However, this was in the context of a study in which there are sperm whose job it is to "fight" other sperm, barrier style. Perhaps sperm from the same man would not fight itself?

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! I just read your siggie! HUGE congrats!

Along those lines I've read that the reason why a man's peener is shaped with the head in that formation is to scoop out the semen left behind by competitors.

That having been said, I think gang rape is a different scenario because all the sperm is deposited pretty close together rather than over a span of days.