LE Standard or PCOS?

I am on CD7 and last day of my Clomid!! I am actually feeling quite ok and the side effects (esp the mood swings) weren't as tough as I had expected (or yet to come after the last pill??) apart from the ridiculous fatigue. I take my pills before bed but still waking up extremely exhausted and brain frogged all day long. Slight headache and light headed but nothing entirely manageable.

We are doing regular release every 4 days and one attempt at +OPK. If I remembered correctly I should start testing on CD10?

DH started cycling mid Sept because he find running on treadmill too boring (smiling broadly here). He will be cycling for probably 2-3 weeks (1hr/5-6x a week) till our first attempt. Would that be long enough to favor our sway?

Taking the pills before bed can really help with the side effects - I hope the brain fog goes away for you soon!

Be sure you're doing the e4d in the 72 hour pattern (not those hours but that's how you count the days, like Monday/Thursday - attempt any time on the right day)

Since you took Clomid let's start CD 11 instead with the OPK - you can get false positives for three days after using Clomid (tho less likely that third day), and you won't ovulate till the 5th day or further out, so by starting the OPK on the 4th day you are going to be in in time to see a legit surge (if you're going to O on the 5th day after the dose) and without the risk of a false pos 3 days after your last dose.
Yes cycling can likely help the sway - it can kill sperm though so we're hoping to hit that sweet spot for you guys where there is enough left to fertilize the egg!

:agree: noted on starting OPK on CD11. And regarding the BD pattern, I am abit confused, were you suggesting having attempt e4d? At the moment as this is the first cycle, the originally plan has been 1 attempt at pos OPK and pull out every 4 days before that for regular release. Now that I am not counting every food I put in my mouth and loosened up abit in general it’s not that stressful with the diet. my pre-o mind tells me i can stick for a bit longer with the diet although getting preg fast would be ideal. Do you think 1 attempt is worth giving a try? I am just not sure now with hubby cycling, would that reduce sperm count so much that there’s no good chance with just 1 attempt at pos OPK? Hope I am not confusing you now typing with my fogged mind :oops:

Oh gosh I'm sorry I read "every 4 days" and assumed you were doing every 4 days plus one more attempt at positive OPK. But you were saying have your husband do regular release with the one attempt. Gotcha.

Yes I absolutely think one attempt is worth trying. I just misread the original message.

So I am at CD12 we had our one attempt tonight, but I might (or might not) have screwed up this cycle because +OPK came way early and totally unexpected. I started testing yesterday at CD11 and got neg in the morning, I tested again in the afternoon and still neg but I skipped the night testing since we did our "regular release". I did digital for the first day yesterday as well and of course it is low since it is the first one of the cycle. Then this morning I got a peak without any high and also pos on OPK strip. "Normally" my peak starts in the morning and lasts for 2 days, and I usually O on the next day after pos OPK and occasionally 2 days after. But, since I didn't test last night I have no clue whether my surge started already last. My temp dropped quite abit too so maybe I O'ed already today. I guess we just have to wait and see. Fingers crossed for catching the egg.

By the way, does clomid raise your BBT? My temp has been pretty all over the place, got higher post af so I have no clue where my cover line is now too. Here is my chart and the X is the reg release and PM is the one attempt. There is no prob with reg release the day before the attempt right? I really hope this is our month because I felt good this cycle. Really calm and stable emotionally. And unbelievably gentle and patient with my kids ...or somehow more in the "whatever" state of mind :shrug:

Attachment 43411

If it was negative at midday it was likely negative at night. Midday is the most likely time you'll get a high.

You did exactly right. Had attempt the day of first positive. The temp drop usually correlates with the day before O.

I would likely either keep testing or else go to e4d at this point to cover against delayed O.

Clomid does have an affect on temping, some people don't even temp on Clomid.

I always thought the temp dip is on O day but you are right, when my temp climbed instead of spiked the dip had been the day before O. My temp increased abit this morning but not significantly. At least we were not too late in the game. I will continue temping i should see a temp rise tomorrow if I O today correct? If I am not seeing a temp rise on CD15 morning, I should BD that night. Am I getting the math right here?

CD12 BD
CD13 skip
CD14 skip
CD15 BD

Thank you thank you milllllllionnnnns for your guidance along the way :bighug:

Yes, I'm sorry, that was confusing bordering on inaccurate, let me clarify.

The temp dip in the morning means that you usually have the next full day to have sex. Sometime in that 24 hour span ovulation will occur and in ~most~ cases it is more at the tail end of that, so NOT that you have a temp dip and you're going to necessarily ovulate at any second. What I was trying to say there was that the temp dip in the morning is getting you in with a day to go not like just a couple hours (which is what most assume), and just totally miswrote that (I think I was thinking of the OPK LOL)

Then, in addition to that, we are seeing a lot of people who have a temp dip and then it takes 2-3 days to see a rise, or there's a rise and then another rise, and ovulation could have occurred even later than that.

But yes, you're right in that if you see that BIG temp rise following a temp dip that means that ovulation has ~probably~ occurred.

Yes that's the right math for the e4d.

Makes sense, also depending on the time you O and the time you took the temp in the morning right. I have had all the scenarios you mentioned above, temp rise right after the dip, the second day and also the third day. There were also times when the first two days DPO are still in the mid range then shoot up only at 3DPO. I normally only use temping to confirm O because it's just different every single month for me but I think I usually O on the second day of pos OPK taking the temp rise pattern and LP length into account.

My temp today went up only a tiny bit again (two small rises after the dip) but my OPK went neg, CM dried up and cervix closed yesterday afternoon. Fingers crossed that O has taken place! On the side note, I still have egg white mucus (just not a whole lot but it has decreased since I started LE and did not dry up as I read after taking Clomid) and I didn't have any discomfort during and after taking the pills and no cramping or bloating on the O day AT ALL! I know I should be grateful because I was so scared of the side effects when deciding to take them but now when I didn't suffer from them I started to wonder Clomid is working properly as it should (i just can't stop thinking whether it will work and all i can & should do now is WAIT argh). Is there any way to know if Clomid is doing something to my body when I am ovulating already on my own?

YES! Determining ovulation is easiest if you use several different methods simultaneously. I would still do a bit of e4d just in case but if

I personally had EWCM for a couple days after O when I conceived my DD. People think it's impossible to have EWCM post ovulation but it's hormones that cause EWCM, and so if your hormones just take a bit of time to clear out, you will have EWCM after O.

Many people have that fear, that the Clomid isn't working, but it does work for practically everyone who takes it (probably even better for those already ovulating). It HAS TO BE working for you, it's doing something. It doesn't just not work for a person - it may not work well enough, such as in the case of someone who isn't ovulating, but it IS still having the effects it's meant to. It can take months to see less EWCM with Clomid. So you have to trust that it's doing what it needs to do.

I was doubting particularly because I thought dryness is one of the major symptoms on Clomid and I was def not dry at all! Very watery and I did have EWMC, more creamy in color and not awfully alot but def not dry at all. At least the BD was easy and should increase the chance of conception i hope.

My temp increased by 0.2c today. Normally this is def in my post-O temp but this cycle my numbers are all over the place before the dip so I am not sure anymore. However i think i will still try the 1 attempt since the results are so good and there is no regret later on. Plus I have loads of creamy CM today I don’t think my fertile anymore. If my O is indeed delayed at least with next cycle I know what Clomid can do and will move on to ed4 for better chance. Now I know why ed4 takes so much uncertainty out of the picture. I always thought it’s pretty straightforward as long as I use OPK but things are different when you only have 1 attempt in the cycle!

Here is my chart up to date

Attachment 43412

Now i just need to survive the two weeks wait without overthinking and overeating sweets :nails: the craving for sweet and fatty food really spike like clockwork. Usually i am satisfied with a bite or two and now I can’t get enough! Without alcohol i have abit more cal to spare and I have swapped out some high fat routine food like cheese to make room for abit more sweets so that at least i am still within the cal limit and not loosing my mind. Hope that wont undermine the future sway too much if this cycle is not successful?

Yep not everyone even experiences those symptoms to start with and like I said, it can take a couple months to really kick in! I think you're good!

As long as the one attempt is just this month, and then in future months on Clomid we need to move on from that.

If you have a craving in the 2ww, go ahead and have what you're craving. If you have it sometimes, it can help a LOT the rest of the time. Otherwise what tends to happen is that you stuff yourself on food you think is "good" and then realize you just ate 3000 calories of nothing, and you're still having the craving. Then most people figure, well I ruined everything anyway, I'll have a blowout and eat everything I ever wanted and end up having major, major binges. It's so much better to understand that you're going to cheat sometimes and plan accordingly than to set yourself up to fail by thinking you never will.

:agree: will move on to e4d next cycle. too much guess work here and alot of stress.

My temp today rose only slightly from 36.20 to 36.25, so still no huge shift yet. My post-O temps usually start at 36.2 then goes up to 36.6. Even when my pre-O temps are higher this cycle, they only hit 36.2 and never higher and never 3 consecutive days. I guess it's safe to say O happened if I get another day >36.2 tomorrow? If, only if, O did not happen, should I be expecting another LH surge before the real O happens later? I am still testing OPK 1x mid day and so far all neg since the last positive.

And yes I am embracing that idea. I still have cravings but no more food obsession which is great. I am so gassy and hungry and moody since today 3DPO. If it's not from ovulation then it's probably the clomid craziness kicking in. Now I am so looking forward to waking up so I can temp and read your reply. am i too weird :giggle:

So I had a huge temp rise by 0.45 degrees today! FF puts my O date the day after my second pos OPK since my temp this cycle is 0.1 higher than usual. If it is correct it puts my BD two days before O. My last two pregnancies were conceived the day of or before O with no cut off so don’t know if this one will make it! :fingers:

Attachment 43413

Crazily enough, 2 days before ovulation is also a good day to conceive. FX for pinkie on the way!

I am still hopeful that FF got it wrong. They lifted my cover line due to the high temps from covid. I read somewhere that your cover line should have remained the same as your previous cycles so if that's the case I did O the day after pos OPK and had a gradual temp rise. Either way, it's a done deal now and I'll def keep you updated! My temp dropped 0.3 again today after the major shift yesterday so I have no clue what's going on. Fingers crossed for a sticky pinkie bean!

Do you mean Clomid??

Whoever said your cover line will be the same on Clomid is smoking something LOL. 100% not the case, and many people don't even temp on Clomid, like I said, because their temps are just wacky, especially before O.

You can do e4d to cover in case you haven't Oed yet!

LOL you are right! ill do e4d and stop reading into every number on the chart. Ive been temping for years and thought ive learnt to only read the big picture and not tiny fluctuations. I was so confident that this TTC wont mess with my head and I was totally wrong! Next round ill probably drop the temping too.

Hi Atomic again...I am on 13DPO, temp dropped this morning and period showed with full force mid morning. Kind of expected due to the delayed ovulation & not so pretty temp but still pretty bummed. So back to square one and a new start.

The TWW had crushed me pretty hard and I had been eating way more chocolate and sugary desserts than I should to cope with the anxiety. Nevertheless, I have lost almost a kg (~2lbs) in the past two weeks even with those extra sugar and calories. It happens when I am under stress. Now my bmi dropped to 18.3 and I know I just need to eat more. Do you think it is OK to keep some sugar in the diet? I have been eating about 50g of milk chocolate a day, I have no clue if this is considered alot or moderate or not so much at all.

My chart last cycle looks like a roller coaster in the rocky mountains...and so was my mood. So I think this time I will temp till 5dpo or until I have confirmed O? Or should I drop charting all together?

Then comes to the most important BD pattern. I know you suggested e4d but can you help me to understand why it is better than 1 attempt at +OPK? I usually O the day or 2 days after the first +OPK, so if I do 1 attempt at OPK it is either BD at O-1 or O-2. If we do e4d it is possible that we BD O-3 and O, which is even less likely to conceive right?

Here is my rocky chart...I thought I had a chance when my temp spiked after a dip :sad:

Delayed ovulation and weird temps don't mean you can't conceive though. I think you're saying "because you weren't sure when to have attempt" but I just want to make sure, because people sometimes think a goofy cycle is doomed. It isn't.

If weight is dropping then you can add some sugar to keep weight on. OR, you can add in a 4th meal (put breakfast back in) or a little of both. I would not just start eating gobs more sugar, though. Firstly because it's not "real" food and may not be as good at keeping weight on when we really need it to (particularly when w've improved insulin response by losing weight - our bodies can oftentimes handle sugar easily in that case and just get rid of it wihtout storing any as fat) and secondly because if you do still have some egg quality issues, it's not ideal for that because the rise of blood sugar, even if it drops later on, may not be great for egg health. So some sugar is ok, but let's try for just more food overall as well.

There are two main reasons why e4d is better than one attempt for conception. First of all, in these unpredictable months, you will ALWAYS be in with one attempt in the fertile window regardless of when you O. Even in the "worst case" scenario of O-3 and O Day attempt, that is still one attempt because if there was anything left from the O-3 attempt, it would already have fertilized the egg before the O Day shot could capacitate and make it to the egg, and if there isn't, then the O Day shot will have a chance at it. you are guarded against both early and late ovulation, you're guarded against false positive OPK and false negative ones, plus it also helps keep your husband happier.

And the second reason is a little more hard to understand so please feel free to ask for clarity if you need it. But we don't KNOW that first positive OPK is going to be the best day to conceive with one attempt for you, or at least for you in any given month. Maybe the day before first pos is better. Maybe the day after. Maybe 2 days after. If we carry on forever always having the same day of attempt, if a different day is better for you (or would be better in any given month, this absolutely can vary) then you may go on and on having sex on a day that was never particularly ideal. So both in terms of ensuring you have an attempt even with early or late O, and adding this element of randomness so we don't get locked into just one day forever and ever in case that day wasn't ideal for you, it's much better for chances of conception. Even O-3 and O Day is not worse chances of conception than just one attempt, because there's so much unpredictability with OPK and sooo many people end up having one attempt only to O several days or a week later, just having regular attempts is going to boost your chances of conceiving.

Thank you for your thorough explanation, I think I understand both reasons behind the advantage of e4d. I had no doubt that I can conceive but it's just tricky to BD on the right date when the cycle is messy and we are trying with only have 1 attempt in the fertile window.

Ovulation 24/48 hours after 1st pos are both considered normal for me. I have some months this and some months that but I wouldn't know in advance of course. It probably won't be an issue unless I am only able to conceive with an attempt on O-1 and not on other days? Is that even possible? Perhaps the life span of hubby's sperms is on the shorter end? It is just my speculation though. I looked through my previous TTC charts and found that the failed cycles are the ones that missed an attempt on O-1. We started with every other day but we kept missing the O-1 so we then changed to 2 days in a row from 1st pos to cover both scenarios and conceived right away. But I guess this sway blue really strongly because I personally got both boys with this pattern. If this is the case, then even with e4d I would need to wait for a cycle that comes together perfectly, right? E4d is probably my best shot now, should I start from the end of my period, or CD10 since I wont O until CD12 with Comid, or after the 1st pos OPK?

:agree: I will try my best to cut down my sugar. I tried a later brekkie at 10 today and it felt weird lol. I used to be such a breakfast person and I MUST eat right after I wake up. I think I'll try to squeeze a meal in the afternoon. This diet is quite unbelievable though. I couldn't understand how I continue to burn fat without starving myself (and rather stuffing myself). Probably the long fasting overnight? or the lower protein n fat? or the no snacking? I had 1x serious diet when I was in high school. I was counting calories and doing cardio like what I am doing now but I wasn't limiting fat and protein. I lost tons of weight but I plateaued at bmi 19. I was super strict as to what went into my mouth and hungry all the time but my weight never went lower. I am now at my lowest weight since I was in my teens and I still get to enjoy the food I like from time to time. I'll def use this this diet if I need to shed some baby fat later.

I'll start my 2nd round of Clomid tomorrow. I don't have anymore preg test at home but my temps are def in the pre-O zone. Can I be sure that I am not preg with my temp or should I get a preg test to be on the safe side? I did test CD 10/11/12 the last 3 days of my last cycle before my period arrived and all came back neg.

No, it is not possible that you can only conceive on O-1. That's not a thing. And your husband's sperm does not have a set lifespan, it all depends on what the environment is and that can vary from month to month and even from day to day.

Your BD pattern in the months you got boys really doesn't mean anything, though. Yes, that was more BD than I would consider good for a pink sway, but the truth is that number of attempts in the fertile window is just ONE aspect of swaying and you could very likely make other changes that give you a better chance of pink even with that pattern. I just don't want you to overthink that because swaying never comes down to one thing.

Even if you were having sex twice a day you still have to wait for everything to come together. It's just how it goes, we all have only about 20% chance of conception every month.

I would have you DO NOT wait till positive OPK to start e4d, that erases over half the benefit of it because you're not protected against early O that way. You can start after your period or after the last dose of Clomid, it doesn't matter whichever you prefer.

If you need breakfast, eat breakfast. That's just one little element of the diet, and we've had several people who needed breakfast for work obligations who still got girls.

I honestly don't know why the LE is so effective for some people. I'll have people who are eating 2200 cals a day and weight is flying off even tho they're already thin. I wish I had more ability to study what the biological mechanisms are.

My preference is for a pregnancy test but you've had the three tests, plus your period, and the temps as well. I'ts your call to make, safest side we'd do a test to be certain, tho I understand it's quite inconvenient.

Thank you so much Atomic. I wasn't even convinced myself while I was typing down those but there were still doubts in me so I needed to hear it from you. You were right, maybe during the months when we didn't BD on O-1 my eggs or my body weren't in the perfect condition to be conceived too. And we didn't even try for that long with both, 1 & 3 months respectively. Will do e4d this cycle for sure. I think I am long enough on the diet and really need to get preg asap with Clomid. Will keep you updated :ttcgirl:

O-1 is a great day to get pregnant on, don't get me wrong. O-2 and O-1 have by far the best chance of conception. My point is, there's nothing inside your body or hubby's body that is running any kind of a "countdown" that means you can only get preggo from sex on a certain day, if that makes any sense.

Even in perfect condition, with perfect eggs, you have about a 20% chance of conception every month with real world attempts. Even with scientific levels of support to find the perfect moment for sex, it's only 40%. It's hard to get the timing just right for people, and it's hard for sperm to find the egg, and even after conception there are a zillion things that can go wrong along the way. This doesn't mean that there is something wrong with your eggs in months you did not conceive. We just can't expect to get pregnant in 1 month, or even 2-3 months, and if you did, that's just good fortune.

FXFXFX for this month!

Hi Atomic, just wanted to update that I have finally ovulated. It was super crazy but thanks to e4d I didn’t have to think too much and it didn’t consume me like last time! I got my 1st pos OPK on the night of CD 15. My temp spiked on CD16 so I thought luckily I caught the surge and must have Oed but we did have another attempt that night as per our e4d plan and guess what? My temp plummeted again the next day on CD17. My temp then climbed bit by bit after that and today I have finally reached my real high temp zone. The advanced/research setting today puts my O date on CD17 but FAM hasn’t given me my cross hair yet, probably due to the high temp on CD16. I’m guessing that it will put my O date on CD18 after I get another high temp tomorrow. I did get 1x spotting on CD18 at about 3pm. I never had spotting mid cycle before. If it was ovulation spotting then FAM will be right. Either way I would have an attempt on O-1 (CD17) or O-2 (CD18). Here are my charts of the rocky mountains

Attachment 43417Attachment 43418

Diet wise I have really loosen up quite abit. Now it looks nothing like how I have started. It feels easy on the diet now and I am worried if it still helps me sway since I believe that diet is the most important swaying factor. I started having breakfast at around 9:30. I tried to end my eating window abit earlier but still that would give me 13hrs overnight fasting max 14hrs. I started eating sweets regularly with my meal but probably because of this I don’t crave for it like crazy this time post O. And I didn’t cut out but just cut back on meat. The only things that I tried to stick to were no snacking and within the calories limit. I am not tracking my calories or micros but my weight has been pretty stable and fluctuates between 48.5-49 (bmi 18.5-18.7). I eat abit more if it goes below and cut back abit if its going up. I could have been on the higher side of fat but should be well within the protein limit. Apart from that I still did my cardio religiously, had wine daily before bed till O and 3 coffees a day. Dh cycling everyday but unfortunately no diet change at all and regularly has his 2 steaks a week. Do you think this is still a good sway? Or should I strict things up abit diet wise if I don’t conceive this time? I felt like I am starting to throw things out of the window bit by bit :sad:

Oh and another question…my bartholin gland flared up again (4th time this year) and this time I have been put on antibiotics for 5 days from today due to the size of the cyst and to prevent it from forming into an abscess. Would antibiotics sway blue if taken after ovulation? And how would it effect the next cycle in terms of swaying?

GREAT! That's the benefit of the e4d is that even in these koo-koo for cocoa puffs kind of months you are covered no matter what.

Anywhere from 12-16 hours fasting is fine. 13/14 hours is great.

I think you're doing fabulously. At your low BMI you should just keep doing what you've been doing and maintain your weight where it is.

Most husbands won't do anything to help sway anyway. Don't worry if he doesn't change his diet much or at all - honestly the cycling is so much better proven than anything dietary for him.

I personally doubt that antibiotics sway blue anyway. It makes no sense, since we are seeing that PRObiotics are also swaying blue. Just take the medication you need to get better! It's too late to affect this month, and would be out of your system by next month anyway.

Thank you! So FAM today finally gave me my crosshairs and put my O date on CD18, leaving my last attempt at O-2. I did lay on my back + tummy for a long time after the attempt so hopefully that will help more swimmers make it to the destination. The chances are probably slim so I wouldn't get my hopes high but never say never right? The one thing that I learnt along this journey is that there is only so much I can do to plan but eventually it is out of my control especially when aiming at "1 attempt only in fertile window". I am no longer consumed by the current diet and the other tactics are part of my lifestyle. Hopefully this is our month but if not I am more confident that I can carry on a bit longer :D

Hey, an attempt O-2 is one of the best days to conceive.

I think you're on the right track! Keep up the good work!

Hiii Atomic, I started spotting yesterday at 12DPO and period came spot on this morning. This cycle on Clomid had been tough. I had super painful bloating & swelling from 3-8DPO. My temps were significantly higher than my norms too. Feeling so bummed now. Really had my hopes up since it worked so hard to mess up my normal patterns and terrified at the thought of experiencing all the side effects again. Sigh.

What do you suggest I do for this cycle? I can take another cycle of clomid before needing a break right? Should I still try e4d? From my last three cycles ive been ovulating on the second day after 1st positive. Should I try e4d + an attempt on the second day of pos OPK instead of the 1st pos, so at least I have O-1 or O covered? Should I cut out sugar completely to improve egg quality? I don’t know what else can I do now to get pregnant :sad::sad:

Well, Clomid does make a lot of side effects and can dramatically alter temps as well, unfortunately.

You can take the Clomid 5-6 months before having a break altho more and more they're having you guys take breaks more around 3-4 month mark.

If you're ready to add an attempt at positive OPK that's fine by me. Just make sure you've got the e4d pattern continuing on before and after that attempt. Some people stop at the positive OPK attempt but you should be doing the e4d all along.

If you think egg quality is an issue you'd need to not only drop sugar, but switch to whole grains instead of white refined grains, and use full fat dairy only, no skim or part skim. Up protein and fat to 50-60 g daily (not counting fruits and veg, which you don't count pro and fat in them).

Thank you Atomic for the info, I'll do one last round on Clomid then I'll take a break. I am not sure if I have egg quality issue or not. I never did any blood test on the hormones (I think that's what you need to assess the egg quality right?). But I guess cutting sugar and white carbs will do more good than harm anyway. I eat mostly whole grains in my diet and the only white carbs are from my desserts after meal (cake, cookies etc). I don't crave for sugar that much now so I'll try to cut the dessert out entirely. Would this change have a positive impact on the coming cycle or only the eggs maturing 3 months later?

Yes, they'd do blood work but in most cases what people do is simply go on the alternate diet as a preemptive strike (it's at least as good if not better for your sway, to do that version of the LE Diet). That way if there are any unknown factors you can just roll with that and get the benefits even if you don't truly have an issue.

It has an immediate result. While eggs do take "3 months to mature" they're in the process of development all the time and any change during that time period is beneficial. For all we know, they're more susceptible to damage as they are closer to ovulation so it very easily might benefit the eggs coming soon more than the eggs that are in the early stages!

Ok I am going to give my best shot to cut out sugar and white carbs this month. I used to eat wheat toast with cheese but I don’t think that's good enough for whole grain diet? Can I eat all bran for breakfast? What are considered “fortified cereals”?

If I am doing e4d + 1 attempt (and I’d like to have that attempt on the day after pos OPK), does that mean I keep the e4d pattern and add the 1 attempt on the corresponding day? Say, if the pos opk is on CD13 and I start on the day of my last pill, then it will look like

CD7 BD
CD8 skip
CD 9 skip
CD 10 BD
CD 11 skip
CD 12 skip
CD 13 BD (pos opk)
CD 14 BD (+1 attempt)
CD 15 skip
CD 16 BD
CD 17 skip
CD 18 skip
CD 19 BD

So there will always 2 BDs in a row that’s why it’s more blue friendly correct? Would this boost the chance to conceive significantly?

And last question…I am taking 2x 1000mcg folic acid now, should I switch to folate? Would it make a difference and if so what dosage do you recommend?

As long as it's whole wheat and not just "wheat" (which isn't actually whole grain) then that is fine.

Most cereals are fortified. If you look on the label and there's a lot of vitamins in it, it's fortified. I looked on the label of Kellogs brand All Bran and it was definitely fortified.

Yes, that's right. You do the e4d whenever it falls, do not change the e4d, just keep going with it before and after. Then you drop the additional attempt either at positive OPK, or if you prefer, the day after. If it lands on the same day you were due for an attempt, have TWO attempts either on the same day or the day before or after. (Note - I see a real downside with planning to have the attempt the day after positive OPK. If you were due to have an attempt that day, and end up thinking you'll have the attempt the next day instead, you will very likely be out of the fertile window with that second attempt. This is one of the reasons why I prefer you guys to do the extra attempt at the positive OPK - because if you end up needing an extra attempt because both attempts fall the same day, it will be the day after pos OPK and not TWO days after - which can easily be too late.)

To illustrate, imagine you had attempt CD 11, get positive OPK CD 13, now you are due for both your e4d attempt and your extra attempt CD 14. So you then do the extra attempt the next day, CD 15, but then by the time CD 15 rolls around, you're very likely too late to help. If you O on CD 14, it's too late, if you O on CD 13, WAY too late. I really don't think having the extra attempt the day after positive OPK is as good for this reason. Your call, but that's somethign that occurs to me as a potential pitfall.

Yes, two attempts significantly raises chances of conception not only because it's more sperm, but also because you're doubling your chances of timing an attempt at a good point in time to conceive with.

Folate is considered better, though most people can do folic acid just fine. Totally your call to make, I don't think that's why you haven't gotten pregnant but it doesn't hurt and may help to make the switch.

I always have the thought in mind that I should add an attempt the day after pos OPK because I always have pos OPK for 2 entire days and from my history of tracking this year, 70% of the time I ovulated 2 days after pos and the other 30% on the day after. But I tried mapping out different scenarios visually and you are right, with e4d + extra attempt on first pos OPK I will have O-1 mostly covered no matter I O earlier or later, and in the worst case scenario (pos CD12 & 13, attempt CD11, 12, 14 and O on 14) the attempts will be on O-2 and O. But if I always O following the pos OPK and if we are doing 2 attempts with this pattern, wouldn't it be safer if we just do regular release and then 2 attempts on pos OPK and the next day? Then in all scenarios I will have an attempt on O-1. You know what I mean?

I am still torn about the number of attempts. I just got this "1 attempt is gold" idea and I can't shake it. Is it too fast to add extra attempt after only 1 month on e4d? How do you determine if I really need the extra attempt? How are the results with e4d +1 with diet, Clomid, exercise, coffee & alcohol? Particularly e4d+1 with Clomid? Do you think e4d+1 with Clomid will give me a better chance of having pink over 1 attempt without Clomid? The time pressure on Clomid is by far the greatest stressor for me but I don't want to jump the gun too. I am so sorry that I have so many questions and I know it's really my call to make but I am lost as to what to do.

And you're basing your belief on when you ovulated on what? Temping? Because temping can only get the day of ovulation correct 1 out of 3 months in studies. It is entirely possible that you ovulated on a different day some or even all of those times. Only ultrasound and blood work done in a lab can accurately pinpoint O Day.

No, it is not safer to just have two attempts. Up above I went into a very long explanation of why this is, but to sum that up, the e4d both guards against early or delayed ovulation, and also introduces that element of randomness (since it's entirely possible to basically outwit yourself and have attempts on days you BELIEVE are good, when the day before or after may have actually been better).

The truth is, I can't determine who needs an additional attempt. But whenever someone only has, or is only doing, 3 months Clomid, I do first month nothing, second month e4d, third month e4d plus one unless there is a very good reason not to do that. Look, I'm the one who noticed the one attempt swaying pink in the first place. I have had ten years to watch people doing all sorts of sways, and I promise, one attempt not only is NOT gold, it's not a magic bullet, or a sure thing, or any such thing. That is why we invented the e4d and the e4d plus one is because the one attempt was a) not perfect still yielding plenty of boys and b) cut odds of conception by so much and c) is very stressful for people in that control freaky way which may sway blue anyway.

Clomid is better than one attempt. This is because it is always possible for one attempt to mess up, not work, backfire somehow, etc With Clomid, all you have to do is pop a pill for 5 days and immediately you get a MINIMUM of 3-5% solid pink sway and probably more (since the stats that show Clomid gives girls 3-5% more of the time are in people who were not even swaying, and in fact were likely doing lots of things to boost fertility, all of which would have swayed blue) It would be a big step in the wrong direction to give up Clomid (sure thing, can't go wrong) to keep one attempt (hard work to pull off, and easy to get it wrong)!

:agree::agree: thank you Atomic it’s super helpful. Yes I based my O date only on OPK and temping and I always thought that you can most accurately pinpoint O with opk + temping! Good to know, now I can stop over analyzing my charts. I can get 6 cycles of Clomid but I am not comfortable to max it out. And Im having a hard time keeping the weight on again so i am convinced that e4d + an extra attempt on pos opk is what i really really really need now.

Technical question, if I get a pos opk at night, do we add an attempt on that night or the next day? I usually get pos early in the morning and the pos will last last for two full days or I get it later in the day and it last till the noon of the day after.

Well, it's true, you CAN "most accurately" pinpoint ovulation with OPK and temping - but temping is still only accurate 1 out of 3 times to pinpoint ovulation, and we have wrong OPK constantly. (Note - Above I wrote MONTHS when I meant DAYS). Even highly trained experts, with cutting edge technology, could not accurately get their ovulation day correct any better than 33% of the time in studies using temping. That is why for natural family planning methods for birth control, you have to wait three days to have unprotected sex again - because one temp, or even two, can be inaccurate and it's only once you can be certian that temps are actually high that it's ok to have sex again.

:agree: fine to go to e4d plus one now especially if you're having trouble keeping the weight on.

Add the attempt whenever it makes most sense to you. If it's that night, that's fine, though sperm count will be somewhat lowered you'll still be adding SOME swimmers. If the next day, that's fine too (and sperm count will have recovered by that point). I like you guys to retain flexibility because we have no idea what is the "best" way and the "best" way likely varies by person by month anyway.

Hi Atomic, I am at 13dpo today and my temp dropped below coverline this morning so I was expecting my period but nothing showed up yet. I tested again this morning and in the afternoon both came back negative. This is the same test that I got my positive with my second son at 8dpo so I am sure they are pretty accurate. Maybe my LP is longer this cycle? I guess only time will tell...

I have had the weirdest cycle this month. We had our e4d attempts on CD7 & CD11. Then I went to dr for a check up on CD12 because I had large clots during last menstruation. She checked my uterus lining and dominant follicle size, 0.81 and 2cm respectively and she said everything looked great. I got my +OPK the next day on CD13 so we had our additional attempt. Then the next day I got suspected yeast infection. My dr said it's ok to have sex and I didn't want to miss the chance so we had our e4d attempt on CD14. Then after that my bartholin gland flared up again and we couldn't continue our e4d. My temp showed that I O'd on CD15. Then at 6dpo I started spotting. First pinkish creamy discharge then bright red watery blood. On 8dpo I was worried that it was caused from inflammation so I went in for another check up. Doc took some sample for culture test and said it's def not menstruation and most probably from the inflammation asked me to keep observing. When I got home I bled again and there was bright red blood on my underwear about 10cm in length. Then the spotting stopped after that. On the morning of 11dpo I spotted again but just 1x wipe. I tested everyday from 10dpo and all BFN. If any of the spotting is from implantation, I should be getting at least a faint positive by now right? Here is my chart for easier reference..

Attachment 43446

Can clomid cause mid cycle spotting? Or my weight? I lost a pound in the first two weeks and another pound in the third week. Then past few days I started eating whatever I want and gained back a pound (so quite some sugary and white carbs). Now my bmi is 18.3 and I know it's bad..but I am eating 3 meals a day and I have shortened night fast to 13 hours and adding whole eggs and eating meat with every meal and loads of fruits and bread. I still have trouble keeping the weight on. What should I do? Should I still try to cut out sugar and white carbs for the sake of my egg quality and eat more fat/protein instead? Can my weight the problem to conceive, even though I am ovulating on time? Thank you so much...I have been very confused as to what is going on with my body and it's just so hard not to stress.