It's not them, it's ME

So I had my 6 week post-baby check-up today and my doc asked if we were planning to have more (we were discussing birth control options) and I almost started crying. I REALLY want to have another. I really like the idea of having 4 kids. Last night we were at a fundraiser seated next to a couple with 4, and I was just loving talking to them and hearing about all their craziness. I had a rocky childhood and I think in some ways having my own kids is like therapy ... I finally get to have the family I wanted to have as a kid, only I'm the parent :) And in many ways that's better :bigsmile:

Anyhow I feel completely hampered by the gender desire though. I can't BEAR the idea of having FOUR kids and never having a son. It's gotten worse with every daughter I have. I adore them, and when I put the title as it's not them it's me, I meant this isn't about THEM. I love them, they're awesome and I couldn't ask for better character/personality traits in children. But I want a son. I want to see my DH (and me) raise a young man to be as wonderful as his father. I have an older brother who rocks, and I want my girls to have a relationship with a brother. It BITES to feel like I can't have a 4th because I can't get past the gender desire.

And to be totally, 100% vulnerably honest ... I feel like a biological failure for NOT having a boy already. I can only imagine how that will compound if I have a 4th DD. Every study I read reinforces that for lack of a better summary word, "better" people have sons. And more boys are born than girls. So while I KNOW without a doubt that I AM fertile/healthy, I AM smart, I AM successful (and super modest, LOL) ... everything I read when it comes to swaying makes me feel like I'm a loser for having 3DD and no DS. A 4th DD would cement that perception for me. Like I said, I KNOW that isn't true about myself or my DH, but it FEELS that way, and I hate having to do daily affirmations to remind myself that 1) it doesn't really matter what some study says, and 2) I'm awesome regardless of the gender of my children :cool:

Having swayed hard and still gotten an opposite I just feel like I want the impossible. I know there are others here who get that, and some of you swayed again with success and some of you still didn't get your dream, but either way, I admire the courage it took you to go through it again. I'm not sure I can get there. We've talked seriously about adoption and that honestly might be the path we take. I would love to adopt ... but I would also love to go through pregnancy/childbirth/infancy again, and if we adopt it will be a toddler so I'll miss all that. But I would get to parent a son, and that child would gain a family with 3 adoring sisters. Trade-offs.

Anyhow I don't think there are really any answers, but it helps to get it all out sometimes. Thanks for reading my super long whine :)

I will add that the irony is BEFORE I swayed, all those studies made me feel like I was a shoe-in for having a boy, because in so many ways DH and are geared towards that gender. But CLEARLY we aren't, LOL.

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Originally Posted by begonia

I can't BEAR the idea of having FOUR kids and never having a son. It's gotten worse with every daughter I have. It BITES to feel like I can't have a 4th because I can't get past the gender desire.

And to be totally, 100% vulnerably honest ... I feel like a biological failure for NOT having a boy already. I can only imagine how that will compound if I have a 4th DD. Every study I read reinforces that for lack of a better summary word, "better" people have sons. everything I read when it comes to swaying makes me feel like I'm a loser for having 3DD and no DS. A 4th DD would cement that perception for me. Like I said, I KNOW that isn't true about myself or my DH, but it FEELS that way

Having swayed hard and still gotten an opposite

Anyhow I don't think there are really any answers, but it helps to get it all out sometimes. Thanks for reading my super long whine :)

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This EXACTLY! Thank you for writing my thoughts and feelings without my usual grammar/poor vocabulary mistakes :rofl:

Adoption is a wonderful idea :awe: One of my cousins is adopted. The thing here is you can't express gender desire when you're adopting, it makes you automatically unfit to be a parent. So it won't work for me :worry:

Right now I'm torturing myself between 3 options: try again with hard-core sway, go HT or not having any more kids. DH is strongly for 3rd option :tissue:
What's bothering me is how messed up I am: I think other family's with 3 girls are wonderful, but in my case it's unacceptable, and yes, I'm a biological failure to produce only girls.

Right now I'm obsessing over pencil test ( check Old Wives tales board) and I'm totally aware that's beyond pathetic....

Begonia, you are awesome, that's for sure :awe:

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Originally Posted by begonia

Every study I read reinforces that for lack of a better summary word, "better" people have sons.

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I don't care what study says that, that is just RIDICULOUS! And quite insulting to us as women, frankly, the idea that our parents must have been lacking somehow to have girls. Put that straight out of your head - NO ONE is thinking that about you!

But having three of the same kind I understand your desire for an opposite. *hugs*

Begonia, I cannot express how similiar I feel too, and I find myself trying to express this all the time!! I do love my sons, it's not about them, and if I have a 3rd son, I know he'll be a beloved bundle, but it will not make my gender desire for a daughter go away. And I think for me a part of that comes from my mom being so up-down. There are a few weeks a time when she's really rational and I can talk and confide in her, and we got a nice loving relationship. Then there is weeks where she's a terror to everyone who talks to her, mean-spirited, whiny, etc. I guess what I crave in having a daughter is the ability to be consistent to a DD, who I will always be there for but also for who I will try to be a source of power for her to draw on, and not a drag like my own mother can be.

I now wish I was not the kid playing with Barbies dreaming about naming her own daughters. I wish I never had the idea of what it would mean to have that a daughter, never have a vision of cute little girls, because that has set up me for this dream that I feel is so hard to reach.

Personally, I know if this sway 'fails' (God, don't you love that word?) I will take a few years off and proabably try again, one last time, for a girl with swaying. I know a lot of it is *luck*. But for me, there is no other option. My husband and I are both not for HT (we cannot even afford it.) And he wouldn't adopt, he'd just want to try again naturally. Knowing how butt-headed my husband is, the only options for us in the future for a 4th is to try again naturally. Seeing Mochagirl and a few others who had 'failed sways' that tried again and gotten their DG, that gives me hope that there is always a chance for a 4th. Then again, I believe there is a lot of luck involved too.

I love what you wrote about raising a DS to be as sweet as your husband :) I do sincerely hope you get that opportunity one day!!!

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Originally Posted by RedCanoe

I don't care what study says that, that is just RIDICULOUS! And quite insulting to us as women, frankly, the idea that our parents must have been lacking somehow to have girls. Put that straight out of your head - NO ONE is thinking that about you!

But having three of the same kind I understand your desire for an opposite. *hugs*

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That's not really what the studies are saying tho. People are putting that interpretation on them (just like how some of the boy moms feel like studies are making them out to be ugly, slutty, cold, unnurturing, bitchy, mannish, hairy-chinned hags).

What we have to always remember about studies, is that while they can help us cast light on overall trends that does NOT mean that we can extrapolate them to every instance, and we should always take care not to project our own emotions onto them. It's what happens in a person's body that sways and any lifestyle factors are only clues that can cast ~some~ light into what is going on in the body. Yes, there are studies that show that people's testosterone may drop after suffering a setback, but that DOES NOT mean that everyone who has low testosterone is in any way a "failure" because you can have lower than average T for many, many other reasons, some of which may even date back to prenatally and are totally out of our control.

Thanks friends... this place is the best :hugs:

I think it's the whole TW thing being about mom's in "better" condition conceive boys, moms in "declining" condition conceive girls. No one wants to be in the declining condition category, LOL. And y'know, the women with stronger arms have more boys one, and the socioeconomic ones, low fertility, and people exposed to pesticides, radiation, etc have more girls ...that stuff. Like I said I know it isn't true about ME (or even my parents) but spend a day reading about how healthy people have boys and you start wondering WTH is wrong with you :wink: Especially when there are SO many more boys born than girls, nature herself seems to hate on me, LOL!

ZB I think we are emotional twins sometimes :rofl: Sorry we're in this boat together hun! FWIW I too love other families with 3 (or more!) girls, I just didn't want it myself either! The wife of the couple I met last night, that I was saying I loved hearing about their 4 kids, was one of 3 girls. She ended up having BBBG. Anyhow she was telling me how awesome it was to grow up with 2 sisters so I love her now, and we're going to be BFF :bigsmile: I had another lady last night who grew up GGGB telling me how much she loves her sisters too; they're also really close to their brother. It's always great for me to hear that, I didn't have any sisters so don't know what my girls are in for!

Auroara one thing you and others have really shown me, that I didn't see before these boards, is that having a poor relationship with my own mom doesn't define the one I'll have with my girls. Until reading others perspectives on why you want daughters, I had never thought about how healing it could be to have a healthy mother/daughter bond... even if I'm the mother and not the daughter. I feel blessed that I get the opportunity to be there for my girls in ways my mom never was or will be for me. :happy:

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Originally Posted by RedCanoe

I don't care what study says that, that is just RIDICULOUS! And quite insulting to us as women, frankly, the idea that our parents must have been lacking somehow to have girls. Put that straight out of your head - NO ONE is thinking that about you!

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:agree::agree:

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Originally Posted by begonia

Auroara one thing you and others have really shown me, that I didn't see before these boards, is that having a poor relationship with my own mom doesn't define the one I'll have with my girls. Until reading others perspectives on why you want daughters, I had never thought about how healing it could be to have a healthy mother/daughter bond... even if I'm the mother and not the daughter. I feel blessed that I get the opportunity to be there for my girls in ways my mom never was or will be for me. :happy:

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Exactly! Your girls are so lucky to have you as their mum. I adore my sister to death, and we have always been close especially since our older sister passed away when we were kids. She has always been there for me during the worst times of my life:HH:. Which is why I wanted at least 2 girls (3 would have been better, as I wanted 3 kids, but 2 would've been good too), so that they could bond in the way only sisters can. :o I also wanted girls was because of the nice relationship I had with my own mother.

But I was given two sons instead who taught me alot about boys! They're lovely and they have a great bond - most of the time.

Btw, I still think you and Zivic super lucky to have three girls! :D

I'm too nauseaus to type much...but love you gals and our understanding of each other!!!

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Originally Posted by KnockYourBallsOff

I'm too nauseaus to type much...but love you gals and our understanding of each other!!!

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:hugs: Hope your nausea goes away.

Similiar to what myloves has said, being that i only did want girls, my boys have taught me sooo much more than I could have ever imagined :) I definitely think I was meant to be the momma to my lovely boys!

The other thing that has occured to me recently is that all my closest friends have been boys. I was closer to my brother than my sisters, I had guy friends in high school (I was too shy to ask any of them out, but I was the one they came to talk to about their girl problems), and even in every job I've ever held I've developer closer relatonships with men than women.

I don't know why this is. At my job right now, my lunch buddy is a man too. At my old job, it was me and another man who ate lunch together almost every day. And in my online games I play, I always make lots of guy friends there too (maybe that's because 99% population on online games are men) :rofl:

Anyway, maybe I should just face the music and realize that my life is all about the boys :bigsmile:

Forget the studies I think you can always find one that show what you want to hear .Or what you don't. And I think the "better condition" only go for the food we eat? And declining would be we are on diet to loose weight lol.
I don't feel anything less because I have 4 girls then some one who got 4 boys. And as you can see more ppl want girls then boys. Most HT ladies go for a girl and we also have a lot more naturally ttc girl ladies .
So I think it's actually harder to get girls? So we did good LOL
But if you feel you have to prove something that you are better and you can make a boy then I don't think adoption will help with that. Just because you said you feel like a "biological failure for NOT having a boy" how would you feel to finally have a son but still you didn't "made " him?
Swaying and GD sucks for sure. This is my 3th sway what can I say! And the funny thing is I don't even have a wish for a boy anymore but it's to late now Im pregnant and will have 5 kids.
If anything would happen (because Im still only 9 weeks and had lot's of m/c so who knows) there is no way I ever get pregnant again.
So think about what you really want and sway or better try HT or adopt.

Myloves, thank you for sharing about your sisters and desire for daughter(s) ... your posts are always really positive and uplifting for me to read :)

KYBO hope you feel better soon hun!

Auroara, too funny ... my best friends, especially as kid/young woman, were all boys. DH and I were besties for 2 years before we finally started dating. I think that's part of the reason I wanted boys; I feel like I've always gotten along better with them. I worked in a male-dominated field prior to having kids so all my work friends were men too, and I was fine with that. Since I've had kids though I've really made great friends with several women since most stay at home parents are female ... though I do have two SAHD buds! I feel like now, in my 30's, I have the best friends I've ever had and most of them are women :)

Flava I love your perspective and I'm SO glad you're here :) You're totally right about adoption not doing anything for the whole feeling like a dud b/c I can't "make" a boy, but honestly, that's what I see as MY issue to fix, not a child's, KWIM? Whether I have a boy naturally or thru adoption or HT it can't be his role to fix me. I have to deal with it myself. And to be honest it isn't as big an issue as I make it out to be, it's more just some days I feel that way, KWIM? I'm not walking around every day feeling like a loser, thank goodness, just some days I have those irrational thoughts and I let them bring me down. That is NOT what I ever want my daughters to see/feel because I think they're the best thing I've ever done. The thing for me is deciding do I want another bio child, regardless of gender, or do I really just want to parent a son, or heck, should we just stop the baby train altogether. If having a boy is the MOST important thing then we will adopt. Some days it feels like I only want another child if it's a boy, but other days I feel like I just want another kid, including pregnancy, L&D, infancy...etc. So who knows. I'm just thankful I have this place and all of you to talk with about it!

In the meantime I'm TOTALLY smitten with my new baby girl :awe: and I know that's part of the reason I want a 4th... I'm just loving the fun of having a 3rd, and seeing them all together is completely wonderful :)

Begonia, I know how it is to KNOW you just have "one more in ya." I have tried to subdue that feeling for a while now, but there is just no denying it. Now, the tricky part is what you are going to do because you could sway again- but you'd have to deal with the fact that it could be DD4. I know you and your DH are not for HT, but in your situation, I really have to be honest and say it, I think it would be a good idea. I think adoption is a great idea also, of course. I know the leftover embryo issue is a hard one to think about, but you would have a son. I just had to throw that out there....I know a lot of couples just won't do it, but when you have your eyes on the prize, it may be something you could think about and get used to. Maybe.....just sayin.' Of course, there is zero judgement from me for those who are just ethically against it, and I totally understand that. But I love that you want a 4th!

I think adoption might be difficult and very expensive. I really wish you would consider HT.

Donate your extra embryos if you have any.

First off, you are NOT a loser!! I know quite a few families with 3 DDs and no boys... one is my best friend since childhood, who is the best person ever; another is a great family who has a very successful small business. I know it is hard to see yourself as a success if you measure your success by whether or not you "achieve" having a son. But you can't put that on yourself! Your sway rocked, but a girl still got through. You can't control that.

If you want 4 kids, then you should get that 4th child. I understand not wanting to risk another sway, though it has worked the second time for some people (like Mocha). Is Ht out of the question? I like the idea of adoption--but why would you adopt a toddler rather than a baby? Can you not choose gender if you adopt a newborn?

I hate GD. It is the worst. It has ruined so many happy moments for me, and has changed my life so much. I wish there was some way to make it go away. :(

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Originally Posted by Hobbermittens

If you want 4 kids, then you should get that 4th child. I understand not wanting to risk another sway, though it has worked the second time for some people (like Mocha). Is Ht out of the question? I like the idea of adoption--but why would you adopt a toddler rather than a baby? Can you not choose gender if you adopt a newborn?

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HT is out more due to DH than myself; I think I could get on board easier than he could. I completely support IVF for people who can't conceive, it's really just that I know we CAN get pg so I have a hard time with it for us. Donating embryos would be tough I think since realistically those would be our (potential) kids. I honestly think if we were in the situation where there was an extra embryo or two (after having a DS) I'd just go ahead and give them a shot at life. If I knew we'd use all the embryos (again, like if we were infertile and planning to have more than just one more child) I'd definitely consider it and am sure DH would too... it really is the embryo issue that is a struggle. I wouldn't say it is 100% off the table at this point but it is very much a long shot.

Adoption is difficult emotionally and expensive, but so is HT. To get an infant we'd need to do domestic, and we wouldn't choose that route ... again just a personal choice, but I have two friends who have adopted domestically due to infertility issues and birth moms usually will choose a childless couple who is infertile over someone like us. That, and being able to select gender domestically is possible, but so rare it's almost impossible. We'd be adopting from Russia (if we did) and most are about 18 months when you bring them home, and it's about 40-50k. From what I've seen wouldn't 3 rounds of HT run me that much anyway? Cost wise I was guessing they are comparable since the odds of being a OHW for HT are slim.

Swaying again is definitely tempting too, I know there are those the 2nd sway has worked for, especially with DC4, but I'm SUPER realistic about it now. There are plenty whose 2nd, 3rd, etc sways don't work. Honestly I'm not sure I'd sway again, I'd probably just roll the dice. I have 4 friends who've had DS after 2DD recently and odds are they sure didn't do even 25% of what I did trying to get a DS, KWIM? I do think swaying has merit but I also think there's some component we just haven't figured out yet ...

Anyhow ITA Hobber ... GD SUCKS! It's just crazy too; I mean if I had a son with any of these 3 I probably would have lived my whole life not even knowing GD existed. And that would've been just fine :bigsmile: But really there are WAY worse problems to have. I've said it before but honestly, if this is the worst thing I ever deal with I still count myself lucky.

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Originally Posted by begonia

Anyhow ITA Hobber ... GD SUCKS! It's just crazy too; I mean if I had a son with any of these 3 I probably would have lived my whole life not even knowing GD existed. And that would've been just fine :bigsmile: But really there are WAY worse problems to have. I've said it before but honestly, if this is the worst thing I ever deal with I still count myself lucky.

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I didn't know it existed until DC3 came along. I always wanted boys, but I was okay with DD1 because she was my first baby and I was so excited to be a mom, I didn't care what she was. But when I got pregnant the 3rd time, and found out it wasn't a boy like I expected, but DD2.... my world fell apart. I know that sounds so dumb. I mean, here you are, wanting one son, and I am complaining I wasn't given 2. But people want what they want, and we can't control our desires. I think back to the time when I just had 2 kids, and I didn't know about GD at all... ah, ignorance is bliss, isn't it?

Anyway, I didn't realize you couldn't get an infant when you adopted from Russia. I know people who have gotten infants from Korea and South America, so maybe that is an option for you.

I also totally understand you want to just roll the dice if you try to conceive naturally again. It seems like lots of people (like TTC5) get their boys that way.

Good luck with whatever you decide. :)

I would be nervous adopting a toddler with unknown background and health issues with an existing functioning family in place. It's a noble thing but I see it as very risky. You can keep your numbers low with HT, use 24-chromosome testing, only fertilize some eggs, etc. none of us have many leftover no matter how fertile we are.

I agree with you that domestic is not a realistic option.

Hobbs ITA the heart wants what it wants... I totally get where you're coming from and many of your words re: GD have helped me out. I'm keeping FX you have another DS in there. Oh and I will PM you today re: the encopresis stuff. Just saw your note on the other thread.

NBP that's the thing with adoption that is so scary ... all the unknowns. There are unknowns when we have bio kids too though, but ITA the ones with adoption are a whole 'nother ball game. We have 2 friends who have adopted internationally, one from China and one from Russia, so have some idea of what we'd be getting into. And much as I want-to-want to adopt, I don't think it's where DH and I are supposed to be leading our family. So while it's out there it's still something neither of us feel like is our path.

The only folks I know who've done HT IRL have, like you said, not even had a single embryo left or had only 1-2. It seems that's not uncommon. If it comes down to us having another one DH and I will have to have some very serious convo's about it. I'm really not sure I want to get pg again w/o knowing it'll be a DS so in a way I'm afraid it's going to come down to us either doing HT, or not having a 4th. Ugh. Much like I wish we felt called to adoption I wish we felt 100% comfortable with HT.

You've just had a baby. Give it some time.

I agree, B. Just try to put it on the backburner for now and tell yourself that you will readdress it in say, a year or whatever, and just know that you have options and having your son is not off the table. That's how I get through the day- I just say, well, we'll have one eventually, one way or another so I don't obsess all the time.

My cousin has a son from Russia, same thing. He has problems, and is very small, but a smart kid. Their second child came from China also, a girl. She is as healthy as can be, but a lot of children from Russia are from malnourished mothers, etc, so you do have to be careful and be prepared for medical issues. That being said, you could do HT for way less than $40K if I'm not mistaken.

You know, the leftover embryo thing is not my favorite part to think about. What I choose to focus on is that we will hopefully have a child, and I know our situations are different and I'd be doing IVF because we can't get pg naturally, but I'd rather have a child than no child, even if we have some embryos that end up going to waste. But for you, you will have your son, guaranteed. It's a sacrifice, but it may be worth it in the end. It has to be the right decision for you, though, but I do think you should enjoy your sweet little baby and think about it down the road.

I just want to see you with your desires fulfilled, whatever way that happens!!!

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Originally Posted by LolaInLove

I just want to see you with your desires fulfilled, whatever way that happens!!!

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Same to you love! :kiss: Can't wait to hear how the appt tomorrow goes!

That's exactly how I see it as Lola describes it. My DS would not be here has it not been for HT. No other child from us would have been here had it not been for HT.

My motto is to ask God to meet me half way in life. I never expect or ask for anything to be given to me.

With HT, I begged for a son. Just like he had. I begged. So, if I am/was wrong, I've already made peace with that. I look at my DS and I see no wrong, no shame.

I keep posting and harping on you because you are me. I identify with you. And I want what I have for you.

Thanks NBP :HH: ITA with you and Lola's perspective. One of my favorite kiddos in this whole world, other than my own, is here because of IVF. I absolutely, positively believe God works in many ways, and I don't doubt those HT kids are any less His plan for how they came to be here.

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Originally Posted by nuthinbutpink

That's exactly how I see it as Lola describes it. My DS would not be here has it not been for HT. No other child from us would have been here had it not been for HT.

My motto is to ask God to meet me half way in life. I never expect or ask for anything to be given to me.

With HT, I begged for a son. Just like he had. I begged. So, if I am/was wrong, I've already made peace with that. I look at my DS and I see no wrong, no shame.

I keep posting and harping on you because you are me. I identify with you. And I want what I have for you.

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I totally love this post for these two statements. I want what she has for you too, B. I think that is why I keep mentioning HT also. You could have your son next, guaranteed. Wouldn't that be an awesome feeling? I have not been there, but I can almost swear to you that all of your misgivings and ethical worries will be gone immediately the second you hold your newborn son.

And your motto is awesome, NBP. I'm gonna adopt that one, because I've really been struggling with what I believe in for the past few months, even thinking there may be no God, which is common when infertility strikes, so I read. Thanks for posting that.

What a lovely thread, I can relate to so much of it but too much to be able to reply specifically. Just replying so I can find it again easier

I know this is completely irrelevant, but I would LOVE to have three girls. Many many women must look at you with longing and envy. I would cut of an arm to have just one girl if im honest. But I totally get it. I have three sons and feel a complete and utter failure for not being able to produce a daughter. I feel like I must be too ugly or horrible or have done something terrible in a past life and am being punished. It's awful. My heart oes out to you.