Delay Ovulation - Soy Isoflavones?

As title says... have read a lot about delaying ovulation using Soy Isoflavones.

I have read a lot of the background about Soy Isoflavones and how we should not be using it for too long.


I have never used it at all before, but plan to do so this month.


I need to try and delay O by maybe around 5-7 days (DH will not be around) to try and make sure to BD at correct time or this month will be a complete bust.

I usually O on CD17, though last month I was taking EPO and O'ed early, on CD15.


So:

(a) How many mg Soy Isoflavones are likely to delay O by 5-7 days?
(b) What days should they be taken to delay (e.g. CD9-14)?
(c) Does Soy interact negatively with anything else I may be taking? (Pregnacare, Co Q10, Fish Oil).


I am undecided about taking EPO this cycle although have read in another thread EPO and Soy Isoflavones are unlikely to cause problems.

I am also looking at taking these this cycle:
Wheatgrass Extract: 800mg - The Original Product & Best Quality (90 Capsules): Amazon.co.uk: Health & Personal Care

I am thinking of taking 800mg of the Wheatgrass capsules a day but wonder if Soy and Wheatgrass would then be competing with each other?

3 out of the 4 times I have taken it I have ovulated on day 30 however currently when I don't take it I ovulate around day 30 anyway so I'm not the best example!

I took it when I conceived DS2 on day 5-9 and ovulated cd 19 (the one time I didn't ovulate cd30).

I won't be taking anymore soy as I don't think it has been helpful. I also probably wouldn't recommend it as it can really mess up cycles.

I assume you are TTC a boy based on the sups you are on? If you were ttc a girl I would say just DTD up to when he goes and hope some swimmers are still hanging around but for a boy you might just want to wait until next month? Soy is a bit risky so it could mess up your nice regular cycles.

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Originally Posted by purple

3 out of the 4 times I have taken it I have ovulated on day 30 however currently when I don't take it I ovulate around day 30 anyway so I'm not the best example!

I took it when I conceived DS2 on day 5-9 and ovulated cd 19 (the one time I didn't ovulate cd30).

I won't be taking anymore soy as I don't think it has been helpful. I also probably wouldn't recommend it as it can really mess up cycles.

I assume you are TTC a boy based on the sups you are on? If you were ttc a girl I would say just DTD up to when he goes and hope some swimmers are still hanging around but for a boy you might just want to wait until next month? Soy is a bit risky so it could mess up your nice regular cycles.

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Yes TTC a boy.

I had planned to only take it this one month as with the chaos December and Christmas sometimes brings, next month could equally be a bust! (October was also a bust btw, so that would total at least 3 months TTC out of the year wasted!)


Even though you ovulate on CD30 without it, do you usually have regular cycles?

I am guessing your overall cycle is around 44 days (I am guessing this based on Ov at 30 + 14 days Luteal)?

So was the cycle you ovulated at 19 days, a 33 day cycle then?

The cycle I ovulated on day 19 was a BFP cycle but my LP is normally 12 days so it would have been 31 days. When I took it then my cycles were a bit shorter but this year they have been around 6 weeks long :(

What day do you want to ovulate? They say you should ovulate 5-10 days after your last dose of soy (same as with clomid). It is probably better to take the minimum dose which is 100mg. You have to check what the actual isoflavone mg content is as some will be 100mg but only contain 30% isoflavone.

I don't think soy interferes with anything else you are taking. I think it is not recommended to take with vitex but you don't want to take that anyway for a girl sway.

Have you looked at vitamin b6? I think that can also delay ovulation maybe?

I would take 100 mg soy iso from your CD 5-9 and pray.

DO NOT TAKE THEM CD 9-14. I understand you're trying to delay O but you may end up giving yourself a cyst by doing that. It is much better to give it a try to delay and if it doesn't work, then on to the next month, then to end up with a cyst that may take 2 or 3 months to resolve and may keep you from ovulating all taht time.

I would skip the EPO this month because it may make the soy iso less effective and may also increase risks of bleeding (and when you take anything that can make you ovulate, it makes ovulation really really painful to be on lots of blood thinners. I would cut the fish oil in half and drop EPO this month.

the wheatgrass is fine

:agree: good idea on the B6 purple but that takes some time to work and can also interact with the soy. If you want to try it, zodiac, 50 mg daily from AF-BFP if you get one this month. NO MATTER WHAT, BFN or BFP, gradually wean off of it. Dont' just stop it cold turkey

Quote:

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Originally Posted by atomic sagebrush

I would take 100 mg soy iso from your CD 5-9 and pray.

DO NOT TAKE THEM CD 9-14. I understand you're trying to delay O but you may end up giving yourself a cyst by doing that. It is much better to give it a try to delay and if it doesn't work, then on to the next month, then to end up with a cyst that may take 2 or 3 months to resolve and may keep you from ovulating all taht time.

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Information I read here and elsewhere seem to suggest that CD5-9 will strengthen the egg that is already growing.

Would something in between not work? e.g. taking from CD7-11?

Also, since we are only taking for 5 days, what is recommend amount e.g. 150, 150, 200, 200, 200? Or something else?


Since charting last month, I have discovered that this chart:

http://cdn.clearblue.com/sites/default/files/graph3.jpg

almost exactly matches my cycle (both LH and Estrogen), so the rise at 11 and LH peak was identical to this chart (using OPK's and BBT's).

Don't know if that helps or means anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by atomic sagebrush

I would skip the EPO this month because it may make the soy iso less effective and may also increase risks of bleeding (and when you take anything that can make you ovulate, it makes ovulation really really painful to be on lots of blood thinners.

I would cut the fish oil in half and drop EPO this month.

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The Fish Oil - was taking to improve EWCM and make CM more alkaline.

1000mg Fish oil seemed to be thinning EWCM pretty good (and DH noticed it was doing similar for him) so little concerned about reducing this as likely to be a step backwards...

Is the reason for reducing the Fish Oil because Fish Oil and EPO (Omega 3 and 6) should be kept in balance and now EPO is not being taken?

If best to reduce though, what else can I take on top of the 500mg Fish Oil to make sure EWCM remains good?

Was thinking of maybe some Robitusson this month?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by atomic sagebrush

when using soy...
the wheatgrass is fine

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I was also asking about the Wheatgrass since doesn't it also contain phytoestrogens and so mimics estrogen?

Will wheatgrass and soy then not be competing against each other for the estrogen receptors?

If this is the case, what days should I take the wheatgrass? (Remember it is pill form, 400mg a pill just in case that makes a difference)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by atomic sagebrush

:agree: good idea on the B6 purple but that takes some time to work and can also interact with the soy. If you want to try it, zodiac, 50 mg daily from AF-BFP if you get one this month. NO MATTER WHAT, BFN or BFP, gradually wean off of it.

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Hadn't really thought of B6, but doesn't sound good if could mess with soy.

What will B6 do if taken with soy? (Sorry I like to know all the details!)

And weaning off, do you mean like one day take 50mg, then next day half that, then next day half of that again and so on?


Thanks for the responses, really helpful :)

Clomid and soy can both delay ovulation even when taken as directed. It happens on here all the time. People take them when they're supposed to and still don't end up Oing for 2-3 weeks after when they expect to.

This is VERY IMPORTANT - DO NOT TAKE SOY STARTING AFTER CD5. The reason is because an egg has already started to form after that point. Yes, it affects an egg already in the pipeline. It basically freezes everything in position at a point in time where the egg can recover from that. What you do, when you start it later, is a big risk to creating a cyst. "freezing" the egg in place at the wrong point of development can cause that egg to turn into a cyst. A cyst if it forms can take months to work itself out and then instead of missing one month, you could end up missing 3!

Do not take soy more than 5 days. Do exactly what I said, 100 mg soy iso CD 5-9 and pray that it delays O for you in a way that works with your husband's schedule. It may not. But the fact is that it may not have worked even if you took it for 500 days.

I get why you were taking EPO and fish oil but they are both blood thinners. When you are using soy, it can make a big burst of estrogen that can cause really painful ovulation because the follicles that the egg develops in (and not only the egg you ovulate, but also several other eggs that start to develop at the same time) to bleed more than normal because your blood isn't clotting as quick as usual. So taking soy plus EPO plus a high dose of fish oil may make a really painful O with a lot of swelling and bleeding. And if you did get a cyst, and it ruptured, it could cause internal bleeding. Since EPO interferes with the soy anyway, you can safely cut back on fish oil too and still end up with plenty of fish oil.

I always want everyone who is swaying blue to use the Robitussin. Grapefruit juice may help too and over time on HE Diet you may find you're making plenty of EWCM anyway so you don't even need to worry.

Wheatgrass has not seemed to ahve the same side effects as the other things that interfere with soy/Clomid. EPO, B6, vitex, saw palmetto, peppermint tea, green tea, l-arginine all do the same thing (delaying ovulation) and thus I believe they act the same way and are actually interfering with soy/Clomid. Wheatgrass does not and I no longer think there is any interaction at all. Additionally I have seen lots of people doing wheatgrass along with Clomid and no ill effects whatsoever so I think it is fine. take whatever days you want

B6 seems to interfere wtih estrogen and up production of progesterone. Since soy requires a block of estrogen for 5 days and then a huge surge in it after that, B6 messes with that and should be avoided on soy

Weaning is just gradually spacing doses further and further apart till down to one a week then you can safely drop. No need to worry about splitting pills or anything, just extend the time between doses. should take about 3 weeks

I haven't tried this again to see if it happens again, but my ovulation got delayed when I ate half a grapefruit every day (I also drank a glass of grapefruit juice). I had read about someone else not ovulating when eating grapefruits so when my regular O day had passed by some days I quit and a few days later I ovulated. So I ended up ovulating 7 days late, I usually have regular 28 days cycles with ovulation around cd 14.
But most people seem to eat grapefruit and ovulate just fine, so I guess it only happens to a few.

If you end up trying grapefruit (sounds like an easy and healthy thing to try, right?) just remember that grapefruit can slow down how your body breaks down certain medications and hormones which can result in an increase of the amount of it in your body. This grapefruit effect lasts 72 hours from what I've read.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by atomic sagebrush

l-arginine ... do the same thing (delaying ovulation) and thus I believe they act the same way and are actually interfering with soy/Clomid

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I tried L-arginine before, although it was not for that reason.
I was trying to increase blood flow to uterus (to build a better lining). During the same cycle I was taking EPO.

During that cycle I ended up O'ing 2 days earlier than usual. I wasn't sure which one to put that down to (EPO or L-arg).

I was taking around 200mg L-Arginine and 1000mg EPO, both from around CD3 until CD12, then at CD12 (still taking 200mg L-Arg but) I halved the EPO to 500mg and O'ed on Day 14.

It has kind of put me off L-arginine a little, though you are saying (if I have read correctly), not to take it with Soy anyway?

I am unsure if I will ever try it again, I know from reading around the forums you seem to have also had mixed results with L-arg in many other cases too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by atomic sagebrush

vitex, saw palmetto, peppermint tea, green tea all do the same thing (delaying ovulation) and thus I believe they act the same way and are actually interfering with soy/Clomid

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Am I barking up the wrong tree then with Soy? Is it better for me to look at Vitex, Saw palmetto, Peppermint or Green Tea instead?

I am looking at the Soy route because from a lot of reading it seems to be the strongest/most effective phytoestrogen, though I may have made a mistake with that?

Also, have read that Flaxseed can have a similar effect to Soy... any problem taking Soy and Flaxseed together?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by atomic sagebrush

...100 mg soy iso CD 5-9...

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It is quite confusing which ones to use.

Here are some that I found:
Arkopharma Phyto Soya High Strength (60 Capsules)

This says it is equivalent to 70mg Isoflavones per day, however the makeup is:

Per 2 capsules:
Soya extract: 233mg
- of which isoflavones:
equivalent to glycosides 70mg
equvalent to aglycones 44mg
of which Daidzein 35mg



Another type I can get indicates:

Nature's Aid Soy Isoflavones 50mg
Natures Aid Soya Isoflavones | NON-GM, 50mg, 30 Vegan Tablets -

Each tablet provides:
25mg of Soya Saponins and 50mg of Soya Isoflavones

standardised for
27.8mg genistein (genistin),
18.9mg diadzein (diazin) and
3.26mg glycitain (glycitin)


Here is another, again claiming 50mg of soya isoflavones:

FSC 50mg Soya Isoflavones - Pack of 30 Tablets: Amazon.co.uk: Health & Personal Care

made up of:

Diadzein 25mg
Glycitein 17.5mg
Genistein 7.5mg
Soya Saponins 25mg

I am guessing not all Soy is created equal!

So is a higher amount of Genistein, Diadzein, Glycitain, Glycosides or Alcogones better?

So confused!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eko

I haven't tried this again to see if it happens again, but my ovulation got delayed when I ate half a grapefruit every day (I also drank a glass of grapefruit juice). I had read about someone else not ovulating when eating grapefruits so when my regular O day had passed by some days I quit and a few days later I ovulated. So I ended up ovulating 7 days late, I usually have regular 28 days cycles with ovulation around cd 14.
But most people seem to eat grapefruit and ovulate just fine, so I guess it only happens to a few.

If you end up trying grapefruit (sounds like an easy and healthy thing to try, right?) just remember that grapefruit can slow down how your body breaks down certain medications and hormones which can result in an increase of the amount of it in your body. This grapefruit effect lasts 72 hours from what I've read.

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Thanks for letting me know that. IN that case i'd def. stick with the grapefruit juice only around O and not starting AF-O. 5 days before O for the grapefruit juice if it disrupts your cycle.

:agree: grapefruit can interact with some medications so be sure to check on any medicine you need.

I am not a fan of l-arginine anyway. It has really mucked up people's cycles and caused their EWCM to totally dry up. It seems to raise testosterone at the expense of estrogen and progesterone, and since we need E and P to get pregnant and high T levels have never even been proven to sway, I feel it's a bad addition for women. Give to husband, that's ok. It is not compatible.

My mentioning those other herbs was in reference to your concern about wheatgrass. Those things I mention, I believe mess with the soy. I don't think that wheatgrass does. You aren't barking up the wrong tree with soy, it's just that your expectation and hope may not mesh with what your body does. Just take the soy and then hope it works. None of those other things are better and most sway pink. Green tea sways blue but isn't very effective (you shoudl be drinking green tea for boy anyway!)

Do not take flaxseed and soy. I am not a fan of flaxseed and only ever use it if someone is a big believer. it is also a blood thinner too with the same probs. as EPO/fish oil and needs to be taken only with an equal or greater amount of fish oil.

No one knows what is better really, I'd get one of the 50 mg ones and use two CD 5-9.