Atomic please help with 2 loss

[jenn1112]

Hi Atomic, recently found out baby is a boy and tested positive for trisomy18 [emoji22] which I guess I’ve felt all along since he’s always measured 3 days behind. I’m devastated to have lost another baby in 2nd trimester. I don’t want my kids to know about this loss so just praying I can get pregnant again right after and maybe they’ll never know.

My question is how soon after d&e is it safe to conceive? 2 weeks after bleeding stops If I’m tracking ovulation? Does this sway girl and if so what steps do I take now? Start LE and what vitamins do I continue to take or stop? I won’t have the d&e until next Friday.

I do have one more dose of 50mg clomid but I’m scared thinking that the clomid or lack of nutrients or maybe the alcohol, Or something I did caused these 2 possible chromosomal losses as I’ve had 3 healthy kids prior. I did find one article online saying that clomid could cause birth defects but I have no idea if it is legit? Fertility dr said my eggs are good so what is going on? Please help on what to do next.

I want a girl so badly but more importantly I want a healthy baby. I just can’t go through this again [emoji20]
Thank you


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[Throwaway_panther]

Oh jenn, I am so heartbroken for you. An Edward's boy is pretty unusual too (Trisomy 18 is predominantly girls), so it sucks you got sucker punched more than one way with this.

You are not "causing" any of this. Chromosomal abnormalities are mutations -- often just bad luck. Some things can increase the risks (older age for both you and DH or one of you, some lifestyle things that affect egg and sperm quality, etc.). If your doctor is saying your egg quality is good (WHICH, to be fair, they have a very difficult time determining one way or the other -- hormone panels are just indicators of things), it might be worth getting your husband's sperm checked out (oxidative stress/sperm fragmentation testing). I am a big proponent of this after my own experiences and learning that male sperm issues are becoming borderline epidemic worldwide (the WHO has even said something on it).

As for Clomid -- Clomid causes birth defects if taken WHILE pregnant, not as a a means to GET pregnant, fyi. But I totally understand your apprehension!!

Did you ever find out why you lost your DD as well? Two second trimester losses is definitely something to investigate imo. RPL is technically 2-3 losses in a row, and second trimester losses are often a whole other ball game for their rarity. If you need any support or have questions about going down that road, don't hesitate to ask since me and many others have navigated the Reproductive Endo route after having multiple losses.

I am just so, so sorry jenn. I feel crushed that you had so much worry this whole pregnancy and then had this happen -- I just feel so much for your months of stress. I want so badly for you to get your healthy girl!!!!

[jenn1112]

Oh jenn, I am so heartbroken for you. An Edward's boy is pretty unusual too (Trisomy 18 is predominantly girls), so it sucks you got sucker punched more than one way with this.

You are not "causing" any of this. Chromosomal abnormalities are mutations -- often just bad luck. Some things can increase the risks (older age for both you and DH or one of you, some lifestyle things that affect egg and sperm quality, etc.). If your doctor is saying your egg quality is good (WHICH, to be fair, they have a very difficult time determining one way or the other -- hormone panels are just indicators of things), it might be worth getting your husband's sperm checked out (oxidative stress/sperm fragmentation testing). I am a big proponent of this after my own experiences and learning that male sperm issues are becoming borderline epidemic worldwide (the WHO has even said something on it).

As for Clomid -- Clomid causes birth defects if taken WHILE pregnant, not as a a means to GET pregnant, fyi. But I totally understand your apprehension!!

Did you ever find out why you lost your DD as well? Two second trimester losses is definitely something to investigate imo. RPL is technically 2-3 losses in a row, and second trimester losses are often a whole other ball game for their rarity. If you need any support or have questions about going down that road, don't hesitate to ask since me and many others have navigated the Reproductive Endo route after having multiple losses.

I am just so, so sorry jenn. I feel crushed that you had so much worry this whole pregnancy and then had this happen -- I just feel so much for your months of stress. I want so badly for you to get your healthy girl!!!!

Thank you so much, this is very helpful. I will talk to my husband about getting his Sperm tested. We do not know what caused my daughter’s loss, her heart just stopped. Her NIPT and ultrasounds were normal but I guess she could have always had some very rare trisomy that wasn’t tested in the NIPT?
I was going to let the RE know about this 2nd loss as he seemed to think everything was good in the beginning based on ultrasounds. I’m wondering if I should just risk trying again right after or wait to see what tests I should have done. My OB seems to think it’s just crappy luck 2x and I’d be fine trying 2 weeks after the bleeding stops.
I do think I’ll definitely make an appt with the fertility dr to see what he suggests. Thank you again for your help


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[atomic sagebrush]

Jenn I'm so sorry to read this.

I think you need to wait out at least one cycle and possibly two depending on how the D and E goes. They will know better how to advise you on this. We don't want to trade one unpreventable problem (chromosomal) for a preventable one by TTC before your body is capable of sustaining pregnancy again.

It's fine to start LE Diet now and exercise if you feel up to it. But remember you are about to go through a medical procedure and you may just want to hold off for a while to ensure you have the strength and energy to focus on recovery.

Your previous loss was tested and did not have a chromosomal issue. We can imagine all sorts of hypothetical genetic issues but I don't think it is of benefit for you to assume that this was genetic when the evidence indicates otherwise. Other things can cause losses that are not genetic and the causes of most losses are totally unknown. Aside from that, chromosomal losses are not caused in the way you're thinking of them, they are just a very unfortunate roulette that sometimes does not come up our way and as we get older, the more likely it is that we have the luck of the draw not go our way. The best news you can get is that the doctor has tested your eggs and that they're good. That means that this is unlikely to happen again.

Of course if you feel better about leaving out alcohol please do.

Clomid does not cause birth defects. I have talked about this with several experts. In the old studies that claimed to find a link, they did not correct for the fact that women on Clomid are typically older, have PCOS or other health issues that themselves cause a higher rate of birth defects, were on other medication that may cause birth defects (such as progesterone supplements), and Clomid is more likely to cause twinning and multiples also have a higher rate of birth defects. When scientists corrected for those things, they found that Clomid doesn't cause increased rates of birth defects and it was a false correlation. Unfortunately, when dealing with things online, some sources don't always keep their information up to date but I believe Clomid to be one of the safest medications there is. But of course it's up to you if you want to drop it out of the mix.

Just for your peace of mind in future pregnancies and for anyone else reading this, measuring 3 days behind does not indicate a baby has a chromosomal abnormality. This isn't a quibble, I just know that people do stress about measurements and it isn't indicative of anything being amiss - this was just a coincidence. I don't want you to stress over a minor measurement discrepancy in future pregnancies.

[jenn1112]

Jenn I'm so sorry to read this.

I think you need to wait out at least one cycle and possibly two depending on how the D and E goes. They will know better how to advise you on this. We don't want to trade one unpreventable problem (chromosomal) for a preventable one by TTC before your body is capable of sustaining pregnancy again.

It's fine to start LE Diet now and exercise if you feel up to it. But remember you are about to go through a medical procedure and you may just want to hold off for a while to ensure you have the strength and energy to focus on recovery.

Your previous loss was tested and did not have a chromosomal issue. We can imagine all sorts of hypothetical genetic issues but I don't think it is of benefit for you to assume that this was genetic when the evidence indicates otherwise. Other things can cause losses that are not genetic and the causes of most losses are totally unknown. Aside from that, chromosomal losses are not caused in the way you're thinking of them, they are just a very unfortunate roulette that sometimes does not come up our way and as we get older, the more likely it is that we have the luck of the draw not go our way. The best news you can get is that the doctor has tested your eggs and that they're good. That means that this is unlikely to happen again.

Of course if you feel better about leaving out alcohol please do.

Clomid does not cause birth defects. I have talked about this with several experts. In the old studies that claimed to find a link, they did not correct for the fact that women on Clomid are typically older, have PCOS or other health issues that themselves cause a higher rate of birth defects, were on other medication that may cause birth defects (such as progesterone supplements), and Clomid is more likely to cause twinning and multiples also have a higher rate of birth defects. When scientists corrected for those things, they found that Clomid doesn't cause increased rates of birth defects and it was a false correlation. Unfortunately, when dealing with things online, some sources don't always keep their information up to date but I believe Clomid to be one of the safest medications there is. But of course it's up to you if you want to drop it out of the mix.

Just for your peace of mind in future pregnancies and for anyone else reading this, measuring 3 days behind does not indicate a baby has a chromosomal abnormality. This isn't a quibble, I just know that people do stress about measurements and it isn't indicative of anything being amiss - this was just a coincidence. I don't want you to stress over a minor measurement discrepancy in future pregnancies.

Thank you atomic. Can you give me advice where to go from here? I’m still taking prenatals +dha, folate and probiotics, and the one thing I already stopped was vitamin D. can you tell me what to keep taking?
Also, what should I do to start E4d, once at positive opk? I do only have one thing of 50 mg clomid left and I don’t know if I should try without the first 2 weeks after bleeding stops then maybe try clomid the next month?
You don’t think my body could sustain a pregnancy that soon after or where you suggesting asking the dr who does D&E? My OB said it was fine but l will also ask the other dr. Doesn’t the first egg after miscarriage sway girl?
Thanks


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[atomic sagebrush]

Drop probiotics, go to 3x a week on prenatals and DHA for now (we need to wean off these gradually and not just stop them)

Yes please wait till your first bleed (or longer if doc advises) to do the Clomid and do NOT waste the Clomid that first month or even two.

I want you to see what the doctor says AFTER the D and E. Most docs will advise waiting till after the first bleed, and if the D and E doesn't go smoothly they may want you to wait 2 cycles. It doesn't matter if the first egg after a loss sways girl if your body can't get and stay pregnant. Most of the time it's fine to try again soon, but with a second trimester loss and a D and E, your uterus will have just been thru an invasive procedure after a pregnancy (which takes its own toll) and your body may just not be able to cooperate with a sway plan here. We need to balance what's best for swaying with making sure we aren't setting you up for a chemical or early loss if your body just "thinks" that it's too soon.

[jenn1112]

Drop probiotics, go to 3x a week on prenatals and DHA for now (we need to wean off these gradually and not just stop them)

Yes please wait till your first bleed (or longer if doc advises) to do the Clomid and do NOT waste the Clomid that first month or even two.

I want you to see what the doctor says AFTER the D and E. Most docs will advise waiting till after the first bleed, and if the D and E doesn't go smoothly they may want you to wait 2 cycles. It doesn't matter if the first egg after a loss sways girl if your body can't get and stay pregnant. Most of the time it's fine to try again soon, but with a second trimester loss and a D and E, your uterus will have just been thru an invasive procedure after a pregnancy (which takes its own toll) and your body may just not be able to cooperate with a sway plan here. We need to balance what's best for swaying with making sure we aren't setting you up for a chemical or early loss if your body just "thinks" that it's too soon.

Thank you, this is helpful. I’m thinking of just doing Ivf with the pgs testing. I’m too scared to go through this again. If I go through with that then I would continue the prenatals/probiotics? Or does doing that add to more boys being fertilized or does it even matter when it happening in the lab. I’m sure it’s rare that there would be no heathy girl embryos but have you heard of that happening?


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[atomic sagebrush]

Yes in that case you'd continue the supplements. No benefit for pink has ever been shown to stopping prenatals when doing IVF.

Yes, it's possible for a couple to get only boys but it's believed to be just the luck of the draw. If you have unlimited money for cycling everyone would get both boys and girls eventually, but it doesn't always happen in every cycle, and since most people can only afford one or two cycles, having an unlucky cycle or two where they get only boys can be something that does happen and should be mentally prepared for.

[jenn1112]

Yes in that case you'd continue the supplements. No benefit for pink has ever been shown to stopping prenatals when doing IVF.

Yes, it's possible for a couple to get only boys but it's believed to be just the luck of the draw. If you have unlimited money for cycling everyone would get both boys and girls eventually, but it doesn't always happen in every cycle, and since most people can only afford one or two cycles, having an unlucky cycle or two where they get only boys can be something that does happen and should be mentally prepared for.

Thank you, we could only afford one round. Does exercise or Le diet help with more female embryos? Or will nothing help sway with IVF?


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[Throwaway_panther]

I know in the IVF world, women wanting girls have their husbands take Olive Leaf Extract for hopefully more girls. But I have seen a LOT of women expecting all of one gender get a split though, and even MORE of the gender they want! I know I got a 50/50 split in two cycles. Our healthy embryos were WAAAY in a different ratio, but that was a result of my husband's sperm issues... (so definitely look into getting that tested before cycling!!)

Just to add some other things -- in regards to your angel DD, if you never tested the fetal tissue, it's still possible she passed of a chromosomal abnormality. NIPT only test for a few I was disappointed to learn myself. And there are many chromosomal abnormalities that can occasionally make it into the second trimester (Trisomy 8, for example, can occasionally make it into the second trimester, although that affects predominantly males -- we had TWO of these embryos in cycling which we were told was uncommon, and that it's possible we had some of these losses). I only mention this to stress: as AWFUL as it is to say, a chromosomal loss in the second trimester is, as atomic said, a fluke. Mutations and abnormalities are still the most common explanation for losses. And different things to help egg and sperm quality can help affect this for the future (my husband and I can attest for this clearly!). Second trimester losses can often be more difficult things to deal with -- cord issues, placental issues, clotting, immune responses, etc. Not having these but instead be dealing with a chromosomal issue that slipped by could warrant success in the future, even though it's scary to plan future pregnancies! And IVF with PGS would definitely help mitigate this.

I'm thinking of you and hoping you recover as quickly as possible from your upcoming procedure <3