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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomic sagebrush View Post
    Well, Grant's research dealt with actual human beings and not animals and she did a lot to differentiate between socialization and actual differences between boy and girl moms.

    My q regarding "socialization" is, do people socialize boys and girls differently just for fun/patriarchy or because there are real genetic differences between boys and girls and boys may NEED to be treated like a big boy and girls may NEED a more tender approach??? Couldn't socialization have developed over the ages as a response to the needs of different-gendered children and not because gender is a social construct?

    I used to believe that all gender stereotypes were artificial and even bought my older sons a Barbie and she ended up naked on the floor with her head ripped off inside of 5 minutes LOL.
    I don't think gender differences are purely a social construct at all, I think it is a mix of both and definitely chicken and egg question. I also tried giving my dd1 boy toys and she would not have a bar of them. Everyhting has to be pink or she will not touch it. DD2 was only 11months when she started admiring and picking flowers, have never seen a little boy do that esp at that age.
    Honestly atomic I think Grant is offensive. As such I cannot agree with anything she says. I was talking about the other studies mentioned that were looking at animals. I am also tough with my girls even though I am affectionate. All that I was trying to say was that every mum has to be both otherwise they will either walk all over you (if you are not tough) or will turn into psychopaths (if you are not at all affectionate). Parenting is damn hard we all hope we are doing the right thing but who knows. I hope my girls continue to give me hugs when they grow older but who knows. DD1 is only 5 and already I have to remind her to give me hug...

  2. #22
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    I'm sorry, not trying to imply that YOU thought that gender is a social construct, but I do feel that the researchers who designed that study were trying to prove that gender was a social construct.

    I understand that Grant might rub some people the wrong way but data is data and I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water...her data is valid even though many of her conclusions aren't. Just like the data of the people who did the pink/blue study you mentioned - people really DID treat babies differently based on how they were dressed but their conclusions were off.

    Anyway I think we basically agree totally, moms have the potential to raise a child of either gender and it's poopy to suggest otherwise!!
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  3. #23
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    I don't know atomic. I think it is more than the mere conclusions that were wrong about her study. I really don't want to get into an argument with you, but this Grant woman annoys me.

    I do agree with you that parents adapt their parenting to the temperament of their child, but I actually disagree with you about girls needing more affection than boys from their mums. Boys are more physically active when little, but intelectually (and here I am talking on average and hope I am not offending anyone) they are much slower and way behind girls. This is why I think boy mums get more active with their boys because they not only need taming but they also need guidance. Girls are stubborn and too clever too soon. My 5 year old already thinks she is smarter than me. I have tried to lead her in her play but she is not interested. She always wants to do something else from what I want to do: "nooo mum not like that, like this.... oooh muuummmm (which clearly shows she is thinking silly mum)" So I let her lead. Because that is how you raise a girl with self-confidence that will not end up being someone's punching bag I think.

    The majority of my friends and family have mixed gender children. Usually GB or BG, a few GBB and one or two GBG. They say this exact thing about their kids. They say their boys love the attention they get from their mums while their girls (especially if there is 2 of them) are always the sneeky trouble makers :-). They always pay more attention to their boys because their boys start talking later, start reading later, start learning math later and it takes them longer to get it. So they need more attention and more guidance then their girls do. They all say that girls are way harder if not impossible to control especially when they get to be teenagers. If girl mums were having it "easy" when the girls were babies, boy do they have it tough when they get to teenage years. You have to be a very tough and strong mum to raise 3 or more girls.

    Another thing that I don't like about her study is this new type of blame the parents for everything thinking. There is just way too much of this going on today. I am not talking here about willfully neglectful and abusive parents (and unfortunatelly there is a lot of this going on as well). I am talking about this attitude of blaming hard working parents that are really trying their best to do the best they can for their children. Her "data" showed that boy mums were more controlling and involved in their kids play. So what does she do rather than thinking "or it depends on the temperament of the child" or "it is because girls need more affection (which is what you think)," or "it is because boys need more guidance (which is what I think)," she goes and blames the parents. No it is because boy mums are more domineering and girl mums are more caring. What a bunch of crap seriously. As we both have agreed parents adapt their parenting depending on their child and usually (if they are good caring parents) it has nothing to do with their personality.

    About the doco that I was talking about. It was a BBC one and a very good and balanced one. I only told you about one of the experiments that they did, but there were a lot more all of them looking at the development of children from 0-6 years. It did say that gender AND personality AND intelligence were all a mix of genes and socialisation and other external things that happen to the child (for example like the experiment I told you about how adults other than their parents treat them everyday). This is the type of thinking about child raising that I like.

  4. #24
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    Ok, I think we're getting very far afield here and I just want to state very clearly that this is not boy-moms vs girl-moms, nor do I believe that boys do not need affection from their mothers. I don't think that's what Grant was saying either at the heart of it...I did read her book which was much more in depth than a study, and she went to great lengths to differentiate between dominant and domineering.

    It can be hard in the space of a study or even a series of posts to clearly explain what one really believes and thinks. I apologize if I've explained badly or seemed insensitive to either boy moms or girl moms.
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  5. #25
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    Oh and I did want to share with everyone something kinda interesting that happened at church last week. The pastor's wife has 6 girls and then of course I was there with my 4 boys and I overheard her talking to her oldest daugher, who's an adult with kids of her own. Her little girl (the granddaughter of the pastor's wife) had a bag of gumballs and was handing them out to the other kids before the service started so then all the kids in the audience were chawing on a big wad of gum, kinda distracting and I'm sure not good for the cleanliness of the church upholstery either. The pastor's wife asked about the gumballs and what the deal was and then she just sighed and shook her head and told her daughter, "But not at church, baby, not at church!" in a very gentle way and then let it go.

    Now if that had been me, I would have responded a lot more harshly than that even to my adult child - but then again I'm not sure I would have even NOTICED the gumballs to begin with or worried about them. I had just read this thread and it made me wonder, is this difference in parenting the reason why we have all girls/all boys or is it a result of raising them for 20 years?? Who knows, but I did think it was kinda interesting.
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  6. #26
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    I have been having the more materal feeling too.... I was very loving, caring, and overprotective mom for DS1. Didn't put him down for the first 6mths, I think mostly because my oldest sis died of SIDs at 1mth and I was afraid of loosing another baby. When DS2 was born I was a little sad so I did put him down more but I still held him a lot. But as he got close to a year old I started to get very sad because I wanted another baby and hubby didn't say anything yet about wanting another baby... In the last few mths I have started to feel more comfortable with that fact that I am planning a baby for once and I really want a girl but if the sway fails then I will be ok with it. I am trying to not fully believing in my dreams yet.

    Everyday I have dancing time with the boys, a few exercise video time, several storytimes, our walks, outside playtime and tons of cuddling and kisses. I think that since I started to do research and realize how I got boys I understand and hope changing everything will get me a girl. I feel in control since I am doing everything I can to make my dream happen.
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  7. #27
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    My hubby is a very emotional man... if the boys are hurt and crying he cries too. Everyone that knows him is surprised he has only boys. My boys are 100% boys but they also have a soft side. They have liked flowers and dolls since 9mths old, they hug and kiss each at any given time, and they still roll around and wrestle. I think gender set rolls are closely related to how the parents treat their child... If you give a girl dolls and calm girly toys they are more likely to have a gentle side. If you give a boy cars and tools they are more likely to do boyish things. If you give a child of any gender cars, dolls, play kitchen, tools, and whatever you more likely to see an "actively gentle child".

    Gender roles are set by the way parents raise a child... The child will grow into a certain type of adult based on the way they were raised in early childhood! An adult can choose to change a few things about themselves but they have to know what to change... Like me being abused, neglected, and starved I choose what to change and worked at changing it. I see the difference in my parenting to my brothers parenting.
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  8. #28
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    You and your husband sound like fantastic parents purplepoet and I do hope you will get your girl soon.

    Atomic I really do not beleive that personality type sways at all. I was being provocative with you on purpose. I am a very careing and attentive mother to my beautiful girls, but I have a job in which agression and being argumentative is part of the position description. So my personality type does not fit this sway thinking. I beleive in the Trivers Willard stuff only from a diet perspective because boy babies need more nutrition to survive the 1st year of life. I do not beleive for a second that a mother is more likely to have boys because she is more controlling or promiscuous or the father is more of a lateral thinker. Or that a mother is more likely to have a girl because she is beautiful or caring. I think all those psychological studies that you have up in the Trivers Willard stuff are a bunch of crap. They stereotype traditional "male" and "female" characteristics in a very patriachal way and they are offensive to all women and men is what I think.

    Sorry I think very highly of you and I hope that you do not take this personally as you did not do those studies. But they really struck a nerve with me and personally I do not think they should be publicised anywhere. I find this type of thinking really disturbing and have spent most of my life fighting discrimination.

    I really wish you do not put those "studies" up and definitely do not provide any support for them at all, but I do get the feeling that on some level you do. I am sorry if I have misunderstood you. Maybe you are trying to think of a reason why your sway did not result in pink last time and are looking for answers outside of diet. Reading your sway you ate a lot on dtd and O day. My understanding of the Oxford study is that you must eat a lot around the time of ovulation to get a boy and even then it is only 65% chance. So there is still 35% of nature trying to maintain itself in times of good and bad. I do not beleive for a second that your personality or how you were feeling at the time of conception is what made you have another boy at that time. But that is my opinion and I could be wrong.

    Keep your fingers crossed for me as I attempted couple of days ago and was not eating as much as I have been on day of O and dtd so I am strongly thinking I will have another girl if I am pregnant at all. I will be thrilled with another girl but disappointed that I and especially my very caring and attentive DH will not experience what it would be like to have a son. For me stress of any kind = less food = girl sway. When I am winning I do not eat because I think aha also I am too busy to eat so I will also look great as well as do great. The association with food is very difficult concept and it is psychological and it is connected to how food makes one feel and this is what sways blue or pink for people is what I think.
    Last edited by Layla; July 23rd, 2011 at 09:23 AM.

  9. #29
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    Ok, well, we shall just have to agree to disagree on that because I feel strongly that ALL the evidence needs to be looked and and examined!

    Wishing you the very best of luck as I do everyone for your sway.
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  10. #30
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    I agree with you that all the evidence needs to be presented, but only evidence that has been empirically conducted and is not based on discriminatory presumptions about human behaviour. For example the promiscuous women have more boys study gave mothers of uni students a diary in which to record their day to day ins and outs. Those that had blanks in their diary were assumed to be promiscuous !!! Is that right did I read that correctly, I am not sure? I will go back and re-read the stuff and present the evidence that I think shows that these studies were not properly conducted and data collection and conclusions drawn were wrong. When I have the time. I will ask my friend who is a psychologist to help me out as well. I will just put the data from time to time in the spot where they are if you do not mind. I think that would be useful. Something to distract myself with in the 2ww.

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