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  1. #31
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    Btw atomic how cute is your bub. Ohhhh how I want one just like him
    I hope you are enjoying our as much as I am. You are a you know I think that. You are a caring and loving and passionate person. According to all those awful studies you should have at least 10 girls.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layla View Post
    I agree with you that all the evidence needs to be presented, but only evidence that has been empirically conducted and is not based on discriminatory presumptions about human behaviour. For example the promiscuous women have more boys study gave mothers of uni students a diary in which to record their day to day ins and outs. Those that had blanks in their diary were assumed to be promiscuous !!! Is that right did I read that correctly, I am not sure? I will go back and re-read the stuff and present the evidence that I think shows that these studies were not properly conducted and data collection and conclusions drawn were wrong. When I have the time. I will ask my friend who is a psychologist to help me out as well. I will just put the data from time to time in the spot where they are if you do not mind. I think that would be useful. Something to distract myself with in the 2ww.
    Well, I don't have the time or the means to go through and perform all these studies myself in a manner that I think is best. I'm just throwing 'em out here and then chatting about them, in the spirit of "Could this be true and if so what does it mean for gender swaying" and not in the way that you are apparently taking them. I am SPECULATING and nothing more than that.

    If you would like to debunk them, that would be great and actually that's why I wanted this section to begin with - as a place to rationally talk about these studies in a sort of dispassionate way without hurt feelings.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layla View Post
    Btw atomic how cute is your bub. Ohhhh how I want one just like him
    I hope you are enjoying our as much as I am. You are a you know I think that. You are a caring and loving and passionate person. According to all those awful studies you should have at least 10 girls.
    I always enjoy a good scrap and I can fight tooth and nail with a person and then be the best of friends with them the next day, I don't hold grudges or anything like that about anything at all ever. In fact NBP (the site owner) and I were always getting into it on the IG site, occasionally in epic fashion, but I am quite happy to call her friend and have a home here on this fab site she made for all of us.

    In the name of honesty I must admit I am not digging the personal comments and if you could take that down a notch it would be very appreciated.
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  4. #34
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    Done with personal comments. I am going through the studies as we speak (when DH is not watching). Have recovered and will keep it all official and "dispassionate" as much as I can while going through why I disagree with those studies.

    Also I am not a dr so my observations will be purely from a sociological/anthropoligical perspective with some regard to statistics.
    Last edited by Layla; July 30th, 2011 at 11:45 PM.

  5. #35
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    The more I read things the more I wonder if the "problem" is really me, could it be dh? I read high testosterone I don't match that, my dh does lol, I am a mellowed out calm very patient person, I lovey dovey all over my boys until they are old enough to eww and push me away lol I am calm, I never yell, but I am constantly telling dh to chill because he jumps and yells at the boys, the whole gotta toughen them up, don't need to be sissy mumbo jumbo lol their my babies they can whine to mama lol and he dominance take charge kind of person, I am a follower I couldn't lead anything if I wanted to lol he also fits the boy diet perfectly lol so could dh be the problem? And not really me? Or does it have to be me? Am I trying to "fix" the wrong person?
    Married for 20yrs, SAHM to 7 healthy boys and one surprise daughter(2021)

    Sometimes God's plan is different than what you had in mind, but His plan is always better and He might surprise you later

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by melinda View Post
    The more I read things the more I wonder if the "problem" is really me, could it be dh? I read high testosterone I don't match that, my dh does lol, I am a mellowed out calm very patient person, I lovey dovey all over my boys until they are old enough to eww and push me away lol I am calm, I never yell, but I am constantly telling dh to chill because he jumps and yells at the boys, the whole gotta toughen them up, don't need to be sissy mumbo jumbo lol their my babies they can whine to mama lol and he dominance take charge kind of person, I am a follower I couldn't lead anything if I wanted to lol he also fits the boy diet perfectly lol so could dh be the problem? And not really me? Or does it have to be me? Am I trying to "fix" the wrong person?
    Melinda I have always wondered this too. Both my dh and I have pretty much the same diet though very low testosterone raising type, but still it takes 2 to tango right? Thinking back when both dd1 and 2 were conceived I was doing very well at work. I was promoted just before dd1 and I had a really supportive boss just before dd2 that pretty much let me run my own show. On the other hand DH was having trouble at work before dd1 and was going through a really stressful situation before dd2. Otherwise my DH is very calm, caring, loving considerate person, so that would fit the dad of girls description. One of the first comments that I was going to make about these "studies" is the emphasis on the mother too much. Women always get the blame for everything right? An australian study recently found that children of fathers over 50 had a lower IQ and higher instances of serious mental illness such as bi-polar and schizofrenia. The age of the mother made no imapct on IQ whatsoever. So much for good and bad eggs theory right. I have to find that study and post a link by the way. It might be a good thread discussion to have. I bet there are no other studies like this though as everybody always blames mum. They should do them though as it is the man with the X and Y sperm not the woman.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layla View Post
    Done with personal comments. I am going through the studies as we speak (when DH is not watching). Have recovered and will keep it all official and "dispassionate" as much as I can while going through why I disagree with those studies.

    Also I am not a dr so my observations will be purely from a sociological/anthropoligical perspective with some regard to statistics.
    Sounds great! Looking forward to reading it.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by melinda View Post
    The more I read things the more I wonder if the "problem" is really me, could it be dh? I read high testosterone I don't match that, my dh does lol, I am a mellowed out calm very patient person, I lovey dovey all over my boys until they are old enough to eww and push me away lol I am calm, I never yell, but I am constantly telling dh to chill because he jumps and yells at the boys, the whole gotta toughen them up, don't need to be sissy mumbo jumbo lol their my babies they can whine to mama lol and he dominance take charge kind of person, I am a follower I couldn't lead anything if I wanted to lol he also fits the boy diet perfectly lol so could dh be the problem? And not really me? Or does it have to be me? Am I trying to "fix" the wrong person?
    There was some interesting speculation about this on IG as well which I could not find due to monkeys but it went on for like 12 pages, and there were two trains of thought.

    ~~~Cannot stress enough that this was speculation and some people's limited observations and not meant to offend anyone.~~~

    1) One group of boy moms were married to absolute pussycats and this seemed to support the Maternal Dom. Hyp. The thinking was, in a marriage, it usu. works best (seems like anyway) when one party is a little more in charge and the other party is a little less so. This went along with something that some of us had noticed, that really super macho men in masculine professions tended to have a lot of girls and that could even be taken as evidence in favor of the MDH ~~~IF~~~ their wives were a little less in charge of the relationship accordingly.

    2)Some of us (and I fall into this camp) had husbands who are a wee bit more feisty than that and we all had boys too. Like Posh and Becks - "power couples" gag. haha. My husband bosses me around but I'm pretty bossy too (NOT that boy moms are bossy and girl moms aren't - that's just the dynamic in OUR relationship. This would seem to support the MDH as well because even if the woman has someone above her on the totem pole, if she has a high-t personality in her interactions with others, then the net result would still be higher T.

    Honestly though, doesn't that cover just about EVERYONE???

    I really really think that aside from dominance this and testosterone that, that it's something INSIDE our bodies that is doing the actual heavy lifting of swaying. So there will always be tons of exceptions and people who don't seem to fit the "rule", it's just that on average, statistically speaking, more women who fit a higher-T profile also tend to have more boys and vice versa. That psychological profile associated with higher-T translates to some biological or chemical event in the body that then sways. So if you have that biological or chemical event happening without having a higher-T profile, you would still have more boys.

    PS - Melinda, please don't think of it as having to "fix" anyone. In a more natural living situation like on an African savannah somewhere, these mechanisms worked very well for your ancestors and brought them both boys and girls. I believe that for some of us, modern life with its stresses and easily-available food sources, just 'convinces' our body that we should have kids of all one gender (aside from sheer luck - some of us are just blessed with 4 heads in a row!) These are good, time-tested mechanisms, we just have to learn how to harness them so we don't have to "Duggar-it-out" to get a baby of the opposite gender.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layla View Post
    Melinda I have always wondered this too. Both my dh and I have pretty much the same diet though very low testosterone raising type, but still it takes 2 to tango right? Thinking back when both dd1 and 2 were conceived I was doing very well at work. I was promoted just before dd1 and I had a really supportive boss just before dd2 that pretty much let me run my own show. On the other hand DH was having trouble at work before dd1 and was going through a really stressful situation before dd2. Otherwise my DH is very calm, caring, loving considerate person, so that would fit the dad of girls description. One of the first comments that I was going to make about these "studies" is the emphasis on the mother too much. Women always get the blame for everything right? An australian study recently found that children of fathers over 50 had a lower IQ and higher instances of serious mental illness such as bi-polar and schizofrenia. The age of the mother made no imapct on IQ whatsoever. So much for good and bad eggs theory right. I have to find that study and post a link by the way. It might be a good thread discussion to have. I bet there are no other studies like this though as everybody always blames mum. They should do them though as it is the man with the X and Y sperm not the woman.
    I really don't think anyone is approaching this puzzle out of a desire to "blame" the woman. Rather, they are trying to explain why it is that men can make 50-50 X and Y sperm (which they do - http://genderdreaming.com/forum/show...-X-AND-Y-SPERM!!! ) and yet 140-160 males are conceived for every 100 females (more male fetuses are lost, ending with a ratio of 105-100 or so.). It is perfectly reasonable to investigate female factors in gender determination, even though traditionally the conventional wisdom has held that it's all up to the guys and the luck of the draw, because the data seems to point that way. No one wants to return to the days of Anne Boleyn, they are just following the evidence wherever it seems to take them.

    Also, there are deeper reasons why female factors are probably much more important for gender determination than males are. Pregnancy for starters...females, esp. female humans, risk their very lives to have offspring while males make a deposit and leave (or at least they CAN leave even if they choose not to), so it makes more "sense" for females to have some biological mechanism that selects for the gender with the best "shot" to hand down their genes. Male fetuses need more nutrition and are more fragile from day one. So it would be a good "gamble" for a mom in optimal condition with access to ample resources, and/or a mom who is socially dominant and will probably have access to ample resources in the future by virtue of that dominance, to have a boy - he'll eat more and is more likely to die, but if he makes it to adulthood, he has the potential to spread his genes near and far. Whereas a mom with less access to resources and/or who may not have access to resources in the future, it makes more sense for her to have a girl - she eats less and is more likely to survive to adulthood and reproduce, even though she'll prob. only have 2 or 3 offspring. It is a bad "gamble" for a mom to conceive a male fetus only to lose it, expending resources on maintaining a pregnancy that isn't going to make it and even risking her life in the process (I hope it is obvious that animals/humans aren't making these decisions and calculations consciously, it's that some mechanism(s) have evolved in our bodies that perform that function.)

    Secondly, most primates live in harems, with one male and several females (and it's reasonable to assume that at one point proto-humans did the same, and those genes have lived on in us and perform some sort of function, even if it isn't identical any longer due to our different living conditions). ALL the babies, boys and girls alike, are all fathered by the same dad, and it's the social structure of the female hierarchy that determines where a particular female falls on the pecking order and what kind of access to resources she has - so there is much more pressure for the female's body to alter gender ratio than the male's body, because he's fertilizing EVERYONE. Why should he have any mechanism to alter gender ratio if he has a lot of opportunity to father both boys and girls?? (not saying he doesn't, just that he doesn't ahve the same motivation as a female who only gets 2 or 3 shots at handing down her genes.)

    Thirdly, in this type of harem, the males who aren't able to reproduce kinda just hang out and bide their time, hoping to get a shot as the man in charge. Only the biggest and strongest males (as controlled by diet and testosterone levels!!!) ever get that chance. So again, for a mother who only gets a handful of chances to hand down her genes, if she "wastes" resources conceiving, carrying, and raising a male baby without enough food to allow him to grow up to compete for mates, is a bad gamble. She just has much more motivation for evolving a mechanism to control gender ratio than a male does.

    This is equally true even in traditional human societies - older, richer, more established men tend to monopolize the available females, either through true harems, polygamy, or serial monogamy, while young, poor males have to bide their time and accumulate resources (not so much physical size like other primates, but wealth and reputation) before they can even dream of getting a wife. Throughout human history, only 40% of men who have ever lived, reproduced...60% of all human males died without having a single child. Whereas the genes on the Y chromosome of Genghis Khan are present in 8% of all living Asian males and he is believed to have 16 million descendents (he also had a lot of brothers so they were prob. doing major some reproducing themselves.) Genghis Khan's mother gambled on a boy and got a big payoff, because everywhere that Y chromosome shows up, some of her genes are right there as well!!

    PS - this is an aside but there are tons of studies out there linking older dads to all kinds of genetic illnesses.
    Last edited by atomic sagebrush; July 31st, 2011 at 12:28 PM.
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  10. #40
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    Thanks atomic. All good arguments none of them making me feel good about being a girl mum even though I love being a girl mum and have only ever imagined myself as being a girl mum in the future.

    I find the whole Genghis Khan thing disguisting though. I would have hated to be his mum. Maybe there lies my problem?

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