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  1. #11
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    My last son was conceived 6 days before O. I am firmly convinced timing doesn't do a thing!
    Becca -41
    Mom to DD 20, DS 17, DS, 14, DS 10 and DS 1
    Hoping to TTC a baby girl in spring 2013 (still undecided)

  2. #12
    Swaying Advice Coach
    atomic sagebrush's Avatar
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    Wow, I must never have seen this thread but I am 100% convinced timing does nothing at all, and I have 3 cutoff boys and a night before O day girl to prove it!

    The full scientific explanation of why timing does not sway is here: http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gend...le-timing.html
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  3. #13
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    I've seen the first study before, and while I agree with the basic conclusion that - for the most part - timing has a very limited effect on gender, I actually think this study is pretty useless for proving whether timing sways. Below is an analysis I wrote of the study a while back, and why I think the study's conclusions are irrelevant.

    (This is taken from a blog I kept on InGender about a study I did of timing patterns on about 800 charts from Fertility Friend. When I talk about "my study" that's what I'm referring to.)


    One of the "truisms" in swaying is that timing is of minimal importance. Shettles' theories have largely been disproven, timing is listed as the least important of the seven swaying factors, and many assume that as long as the environment is right, timing really doesn't matter. Part of the reason for this dismissal of timing seems to come from the apparent lack of scientific studies supporting it.

    One such scientific study that finds no evidence for timing is "Timing of Sexual Intercourse in Relation to Ovulation - Effects on the Probability of Conception, Survival of the Pregnancy, and Sex of the Baby." The study analyzes the last day intercourse occurred on and "[finds] no association between the sex of the baby and the timing of intercourse in relation to ovulation."

    http://nejm.highwire.org/cgi/content/full/333/23/1517

    The problem with this study is a problem I suspect a lot of timing studies have: it is looking at the wrong timing patterns. Most BD patterns do not sway, or if they sway, it is probably just by a small amount. There are only a handful of BD patterns I have found that may significantly influence gender (these are the patterns that I have at least 20 charts for and that have a greater than 55% effectiveness rate):
    - 1 time BD the day before ovulation (23 charts): sways boy 65.2%
    - 2 day cut-off (44 charts): sways girl 56.8%
    - 3 day cut-off (22 charts): sways girl 68.2%
    - frequent BD (at least 4 times) with a 1 day cut-off (26 charts): sways girl 69.2%
    - frequent BD (at least 4 times) with a 1 day cut-off AND BD the day after ovulation (45 charts): sways girl 57.8%

    If a study isn't looking for one of the handful of timing patterns that may sway, it is unlikely to find any evidence that timing works. For instance, the study above looked at the last day that intercourse occurred, and determined how many boys and girls were conceived. This is the graph of its findings [refers to Figure 4 in the study].

    There aren't numbers to indicate how many boys and girls were conceived with BD ending on each of these days; however, the article says 129 pregnancies resulted in a live birth, so there must be at least 129 pregnancies in the graph.

    One of the obvious problems with looking at the last day of intercourse to evaluate timing is that BD patterns with a 1 day cut-off (for instance) can be very different. Both the best boy timing method and best girl timing method (in my opinion) have a 1 day cut-off. Yet the results are very different if there is no BD before the cut-off than if there is lots of BD beforehand.

    Another problem is that the vast majority of all conceptions (at least by people who are trying to get pregnant) have intercourse the day before or day of ovulation. In this study, there were a total of 192 pregnancies initiated (including those that ended in m/c or stillbirth), and only 12 were from a 3 day or more cut-off (so only 6.25% of all pregnancies). This is similar to what I found in my study: only 38 charts out of 700 had a 3 day or more cut-off (5.4% of all pregnancies). I don't know how many charts had a 2 day cut-off in the study above, but the bars for the graph are significantly lower for 2 days before ovulation than they are for 1 day before ovulation. In my study, I only found 82 charts with a 2 day or more cut-off (11.7% of pregnancies). So, in other words, upwards of 88% of charts in my study had BD ending the day before or day of ovulation (and the percentage was probably similar in the study above). It is difficult to tell anything about timing by looking at the day intercourse ends, since almost all conceptions end on just two days.

    A final problem is looking at too few pregnancies. Evaluating the sex ratio based on the last day of intercourse COULD identify whether cut-offs of 2, 3, or 4+ days influences gender. However, since cut-offs of 2 or more days are relatively uncommon, you have to look at a LOT of pregnancies to find very many cut-offs. Even with 700 charts, I still only have 82 cut-off charts in my study. 129 pregnacies is simply too few to be able to evaluate whether cut-offs sway.

    As a test, I decided to look at the charts in my study to see if I also found timing of intercourse to have "no influence" if I only looked at the day ovulation ended. Since the study above looked at the last day of intercourse BEFORE ovulation, I left out charts that had BD AFTER ovulation. This is what I found:
    - BD ends on O: 116 girl charts, 124 boy charts (sways boy 51.7%)
    - BD ends on -1: 63 girl charts, 64 boy charts (sways boy 50.4%)
    - BD ends on -2: 25 girl charts, 19 boy charts (sways girl 56.8%)
    - BD ends on -3: 15 girl charts, 7 boy charts (sways girl 68.2%)
    - BD ends on -4: 6 girl charts, 3 boy charts (sways girl 66.7%)
    - BD ends on -5+: 2 girl charts, 5 boy charts (sways boy 71.4%)

    If I include the charts with BD the day after ovulation, the results are similar.
    - BD ONLY on the day after O: 1 girl chart, 0 boy charts (sways girl 100%)
    - BD ends on O: 193 girl charts, 206 boy charts (sways boy 51.6%)
    - BD ends on -1: 98 girl charts, 90 boy charts (sways girl 52.1%)
    - BD ends on -2: 31 girl charts, 30 boy charts (sways girl 50.8%)
    - BD ends on -3: 18 girl charts, 13 boy charts (sways girl 58.1%)
    - BD ends on -4: 6 girl charts, 6 boy charts (50/50)
    - BD ends on -5+: 3 girl charts, 5 boy charts (sways boy 62.5%)

    In both analyses, the only significant result was that 2-3 day cut-offs sway for girl. All other patterns either had too few charts to be significant or had results close to what would be expected from chance. If I was just looking at the day intercourse ended, I would be able to tell that 2-3 day cut-offs swayed, but otherwise it would look like timing had no effect.

    In conclusion, I do think some BD patterns sway. However, since most BD patterns don't sway or sway very little, scientific studies are not going to recognize what those patterns are unless they are looking for the handful of BD patterns that may influence gender. Simply looking at the last day of intercourse is not an effective way to evaluate whether or not timing sways.
    Last edited by minervasmom; September 23rd, 2012 at 06:05 PM.

  4. #14
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    I'd love to have you design a timing study, Minerva!! I wish we had a lab and an army of grad students at our disposal.

    Personally, I still find that study very helpful because it shows that you can DTD the day before O and O day and still get a girl, which a lot of people would claim sways strongly blue regardless of what happened before. People are not getting pregnant with cutoffs while swaying and people also aren't getting pg from one attempt close to O for blue, so they're lingering for months and even years because of timing, while they drop things that really sway like diet. All reliable sources agree that intercourse during the 1-2 days up to a few hours before O has the best odds of conception - much higher than cutoffs/O+12 for pink, or trying to time intercourse right at O for blue. If that many more babies of either gender are conceived from BD 1-2 days up to a few hours before O, you have a better shot at getting a baby of your desired gender by TTC a day that is more friendly to conception even if another day were shown to sway (I do not believe timing sways, just speaking hypothetically). Pulling numbers out of the air to illustrate, if you take 100 babies and 70% are conceived from intercourse during the 2 days before O and it's 50-50 boys and girls, even if O+12 sways 100% of the time, if only one out of 100 people can conceive that day, the odds are WAY better of getting a girl from BD the 2 days before O.

    My take on timing potentially swaying, is that if as many of us believe, it's something to do with sperm numbers that is swaying and not "X lives longer than Y" which has been completely debunked, then there could be a tiny advantage to a cutoff IF one were doing nothing else to sway gender. But once you start swaying, trying to get pg with one BD 3 days before O with lower sperm count and harsh vaginal environment is going to be extremely difficult if not impossible. And if you're swaying blue, limiting yourself to one attempt and trying to time it as close to O as possible, is going to also make it a lot less likely to conceive, and may even sway pink by limiting the number of sperm in the repro tract.
    Last edited by atomic sagebrush; September 29th, 2012 at 11:04 AM.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomic sagebrush View Post
    And if you're swaying blue, limiting yourself to one attempt and trying to time it as close to O as possible, is going to also make it a lot less likely to conceive, and may even sway pink by limiting the number of sperm in the repro tract.
    This is my biggest, hugest regret in my sway. I was aiming for every other day frequency, and I think I O'ed early.... and since I don't know when I ovulated, I may have only had 2 attempts in, though I had hoped for 4. If I had it to do it over, I would have DTD 4 or 5 days in a row.
    2004 2006 2010 2012

    My BOY sway worked!! THANK YOU GENDER DREAMING!!

  6. #16
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    I shall have to look for the study but I read a really in depth one which said that the probability of conceiving a girl or boy was a 'U' shape with the bottom of the U being the time of ovulation & also when you were most likely to get a girl.

  7. #17
    Swaying Advice Coach
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbermittens View Post
    This is my biggest, hugest regret in my sway. I was aiming for every other day frequency, and I think I O'ed early.... and since I don't know when I ovulated, I may have only had 2 attempts in, though I had hoped for 4. If I had it to do it over, I would have DTD 4 or 5 days in a row.
    And not to put words into Hobbers' mouth, but despite her concerns she still got a boy!
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  8. #18
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    We weren't trying to get pregnant this time...we had somewhere btw a 3-6 day cut-off (it's hard to say as I wasn't timing and I was nursing DS3...so going off first ultrasound). Honestly, as hubby was going to get a vasectomy, the only main difference is that I had been diagnosed with PPD and when looking at vitamins/minerals, I was actually found to be very low in magnesium, so doctor had me on high cal/mag supps. It's looking like this is a girl...could be timing according to Minervas study IF it was closer to a 3-4 day cut-off.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomic sagebrush View Post
    And not to put words into Hobbers' mouth, but despite her concerns she still got a boy!


    Yeah, you are right! I freaked out for 9 months about nothing. I am sorry for all of that.
    2004 2006 2010 2012

    My BOY sway worked!! THANK YOU GENDER DREAMING!!

  10. #20
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    Hobbers, we're just so HAPPY for you!!!
    Proud mom of 3 sweet boys...
    and one BEAUTIFUL little girl!
    (Thanks Atomic!)




    Guess my nub? LOL...

    http://genderdreaming.com/forum/ultr...guess-3-a.html

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