Low estrogen help

[Needhairbowsinmylife]

Hoping for some advice. I've lurked here on and off for the last 5+ years dreaming of a daughter. I'm swaying and and not getting pregnant. I saw my midwife and had a blood test. Everything looked great except my estradiol is low end of normal (36 on CD 8). She gave me clomid. I'm worried clomid will make my estradiol even worse- she said she hasn't heard of that but I thought that's HOW it worked. I've upped my fat intake big time which probably isn't ideal for a girl sway but I've known I've had low estrogen before the test confirmed (even though they say it's not "low" just on the lower end). I spot for a few days before each cycle and have horrid insomnia and hot flashes. Upping my fat hasn't helped no herbal supp has helped. Also, my thyroid is perfect. I have a son I conceived on le diet so I just really don't feel diet is the problem. Any advice for me? I'm sad my blood test came back normal because I was hoping for an easy answer 😞. No pcos, my weight is pretty low. My bmi is 17.5, same as it's been the last 17 years, never budges regardless of diet. Should I maybe see a specialist? I don't know if I can afford one.

[atomic sagebrush]

The first thing you need to do is stop taking herbal supplements. If you've been taking them to "fix" a problem that you don't even have (your estradiol being on the low end of normal, is still normal, and even when it's below normal they rarely treat it) the herbs often end up making matters worse and some of them have seemed to prevent pregnancy totally (even when they are supposed to be beneficial for fertility)

Can you give me a rundown of a) everything you've taken in the past? It may help your mindset if indeed you were taking things that may have been preventing conception. and b) everything you've been doing to sway? I don't mean diet so much (although if you think it's germane, that's fine) but things that may cut odds of conception like timing, frequency, pH (douching/jelly) and shallow release.

Also is your cycle otherwise regular other than the spotting?? Has DH had a sperm analysis?? That would be honestly my first step if he hasn't.

What Clomid does is that it blocks estrogen for 5 days, and this sort of revs up your body's engine and then you'll make a whole bunch of estrogen very quick. As long as you're eating enough fat which it sounds like you are, the low-normal estradiol should not be a problem.

[Needhairbowsinmylife]

Thanks, Atomic. I was previously doing all sorts of crazy things to sway. Cutting out high potassium foods, no breakfast, doing everything I could to lower blood sugar, and timing to dtd with one attempt at pos opk, I tried acijel but gave that up pretty quick after my curiosity had me looking at my husband's sperm under a microscope with some diluted vinegar, yes hallow release and I still do that most months (have said screw it a few times and not worried about it). He has had an analysis and he's pretty average despite the fact that he smokes a zillion cigarettes a day, eats poorly and never sleeps. The last couple years I've tried and stopped many supplements. fiber gave me horrible gas (sorry, tmi) and I just couldn't continue, black cohosh did not help my hot flashes (wasn't taking it to sway, just wanted relief) so I quit, later, licorice root didn't help and I quit that too. I tried DIM because I thought maybe I wasn't metabolizing the estrogen or something and I feel like I felt better, but my pre menstrual spotting started even earlier so I stopped that too. I don't tolerate soy anything very well, so I never tried the isoflavones. Vitex makes my follicular phase longer and my ovulation hard to pinpoint, but apparently hasn't done anything for my E2, so I plan to give that up now. I still do b complex, myo inositol, folate, and the dim I was taking had vitamin D and it did make me FEEL better and so maybe I should do a d supplement if that's what was maybe making me feel better. My diet is high fat, like I mentioned. I stay away from red meat (not a fan of most of it anyhow) and I still don't eat cereal because it's like this huge sway no-no every where it seems. I do coffee instead of breakfast and otherwise I'm not real restrictive because it causes me stress to count calories or macros or anything like that. Honestly just getting some relief from the insomnia and hot flashes would be nice if it was possible to do that and still sway. Last cycle was one of the worst and that was just the b complex every few days, myo inositol, folate and vitex (the midwife thinks vitex is a cure all). I know I need to quit flopping around trying so many things to find a fix. My body is probably confused. I do get a pos opk every month and period every month, so I guess that's something, though my periods are much lighter but strangely last longer than before I had my son. I've had at least one chemical, so I'm hopeful I have at least one open tube. I do get an increase in wet cm around ovulation but it's nothing egg white-like. I'm 28 years old and I feel like rounding 50 over here with these hot flashes. I'm happy to hear you say that even though the clomid blocks estrogen, it causes it to quickly ramp up. That's a relief. I want to try the clomid since I hear it sways. I feel strongly about doing 1 attempt and I welcome your thoughts on what supplements I should cut out and if there is anything you think is lacking. Thank you x1000000!

[Needhairbowsinmylife]

I wanted to add that these issues started after I had my son but before I started to sway again. So even with no supps, dieting or anything I was still spotting and having hot flashes. Swaying hasn't really made much difference in these symptoms, though I know it's quite possible I've made my estrogen lower with swaying. Also wanted to add the b complex has improved my spotting from 4 days down to 2-3 and that's why I've continued (usually just one tab every other day or so, since taking it daily didn't make more of a difference). Totally fine giving it up though.

[atomic sagebrush]

Ok. Thanks for letting me know.

The first thing that needs to go is the shallow release. Above all other tactics that has cut odds of conception to nothing and I found this out after having several couples not getting pregnant even as I used all my tricks to boost odds of conception. Then eventually I found out they were doing shallow and had forgot to mention it to me, I had them drop it, and practically all of them immediately got pregnant (a couple others had actual sperm quality issues)

I hope it is glaringly obvious you need to stop mixing sperm and vinegar and do not use any douches or jellies other than things that say "sperm safe, conception friendly" on the label from here on in.

When was hubby's sperm analysis? 5 years is a long time so if it's been awhile we need to follow up with that.

Fine to leave out fiber, I'd have had you absolutely drop it now anyway (well actually several years ago.)

YOU MUST DROP ALL HERBS AND STAY OFF THEM FOREVER. I am not even going to go into the risks of the stuff you were taking but I actually said a prayer to thank god you didn't get pregnant on some of them as they are very harmful to unborn babies and no one knows how long the effects last, so it's actually a very very good thing you didn't get pregnant while taking that stuff.

All midwives think vitex is magic because it can help people who have PCOS which is the single most common fertility problem. But the trouble is for those who do not have PCOS, it is gasoline on a fire and in your case this fire has burned long enough. I beg you to throw all your herbs directly into the garbage and never take any of them again. The midwife doens't need to know. I know you're thinking I am exaggerating or am misinformed right now but I PROMISE that literally every person who I have come across who had had these mysterious inexplicable fertility issues every one of them was taking a succession of herbs and especially vitex. Do not buy more. Do not try soy.

It is irrelevant that you had these symptoms at some point in the past. This is not some ongoing problem. It was a temporary problem that your body would have been working to fix on its own and many of us have gone through periods of spotting and hot flashes only to have those things go away on their own and get pregnant after. What you did was you turned a non-problem into a problem by putting all that stuff in your body. It's like you had car trouble from some bad gas and it would have gone away in time, but you started putting sugar and diesel and oil in your tank - you made things soooo much worse.

Why are you taking myoinositol?? What is your BMI?? Taking that when you don't need it is actually disruptive to the cycle I use that for people with moderate to severe PCOS only.

I am fine wiht you continuing the B vitamins if you feel they're helping. 3x a week.

If you want to add in Vit. D 2x a week that is fine.

I also want to see you on iron 30-60 mg 3x a week because I suspect the longer periods and the spotting may be helped by that.

I want to emphasize that this is not a quick fix. It took time to get here and it takes time to get out of it. So please don't give this a week or a month and decide "well atomic doesn't know, time for more black cohosh" because I assure you you're causing yourself harm, your future unborn baby harm, and your fertility harm (and at 28 I know it feels like you have all the time in the world but it really flies by and I hope you don't eventually look back at these 5 years with regret)

I would strongly advise the Clomid but even more strongly I suggest waiting a month to be sure the herbs are out of your system.

At this point after 5 years of trying I could not ever recommend one attempt for anyone. If you want to go on Clomid you have to promise me that you will not keep doing shallow release, anything involving vinegar, and I'll allow one month on Clomid + one attempt but then you MUST go to e4d, no ifs, ands or buts about it. One month at one attempt, 2 months on e4d, then go to e4d plus one more attempt at positive OPK for 2 months, and the 6th and final month on Clomid you should do SMEP for max odds of conception.

[Needhairbowsinmylife]

Hi atomic, thanks for your reply. I want to clear a few things up because I'm afraid my thoughts about my swaying are coming out jumbled in text. I have been here five years and in that time I had my son (almost 4y/o) after a failed sway. I had these symptoms after my cycle returned and I had them for a couple years before I started swaying again. I've been back at swaying almost a year now. I will stop vitex and will not pick the dim back up. I threw out all other herbs many months ago because they simply weren't doing anything to help my symptoms- which is why I was taking them, not to sway, because I am miserable most of my cycle have been for years with and without any supplements. I take myo inositol on general advice from an RE that I follow who says it's good for everyone's egg quality and cell membrane function. But I have no issue dropping that. I don't use vinegar, never have. I was curious about acijel and held my own experiment with diluted vinegar figuring it would work in a similar way. I decided right then I wouldn't be messing with pH. I am concerned about my lining being too thin with clomid but I'm willing to give it a try. I only get 3 mos of it. I am not quite ready to give up one attempt yet as it seems to have the best success. I hear you about shallow release and will give that up. My husband's sperm analysis was recent and results considered average. I feel strongly my fertility issues are stemming from a hormone problem. If there's nothing I can do to help it, then I suppose I'll have to suffer through until it eventually, hopefully corrects itself. How long should I give it after I quit everything if these symptoms continue and I don't get pregnant before taking any next step?

[atomic sagebrush]

Ok great. I'm so relieved you haven't been going through this for 5 years.

Myoinositol is relatively new. Supplements tend to come in, in phases, the first phase is they're seen as some sort of miracle and since the docs haven't seen the side effects yet (and more important, haven't read about them in the New England Journal of Medicine - which can take decades) they will sing their praises. Here in the trenches I feel like I see things more up close and immediate, and the myo has helped some people and then not helped many others. It's very similar to the vitex situation - for a large minority of people with PCOS and related problems it's a godsend, but for those not in that category it is much less clear if it's helping or hurting.
We have had several people who went onto myo and inexplicably did not get pregnant on it. So unless you have PCOS, insulin resistance, or more than 50 lbs to spare I'd have you wean off it, and if you can't bear to do that, please take half the dose you've been taking it or go to every other day.

Your body is a system that is made to be to some extent, self-healing. This is especially true where hormones are concerned. I can't say how long it will take to correct itself, it's just beyond my ability to know.

I'm fine with you seeing an RE or OBGYN at any point in time. In fact, a 28 year old with such severe hot flashes she's trying herbal remedies for them NEEDS to see someone for followup testing because that is not something I hear regularly at all. I'm assuming since you knew your estrogen level you've had some testing done, but I think you need a second opinion if the doctor pooh-poohed you because while rare, there are some very serious things that do need to be investigated thoroughly rather than jumping to any conclusion about what is going on here. And then if it is determined to be hormonal, oftentimes they can treat you for it! If you do in fact have low estrogen, they can give you a medication that will fix that, alongside the Clomid so you can't possibly get a thin lining (although I do not believe you need to worry about this; in all this time I've had only one person get a thin lining after a month on Clomid and only 2 others even after 3 months. Most of those who have lining issues on Clomid have taken it for 4+ months)

Fine to start off with one attempt esp. since you haven't been trying for 5 years, LOL. But I do want to explain to you about the e4d. E4d is a simple way to do one attempt. The trouble with one attempt is, sometimes it's hard to know when you're going to ovulate. Everything - symptoms, OPK, temping, apps - all can be misleading, and when you put your eggs in one basket, literally, it is entirely possible you ovulate later or sooner than you expect, and boom, that's it, you've wasted a whole entire month!! OR, another possibility is that you aim at the day of pos OPK when really your personal chances were better the day before or the day after.

tl;dr - one attempt can make it hard to conceive

So, we've been going with the e4d. But e4d is STILL one attempt! This is because sperm does not live longer than 3 days if that even. So most people do the e4d so that in the worst case scenario, they end up with attempts on O-3 and O Day. Far more likely would be O-4 and O-1 (and the O-4 sperm would be dead) or O-5 and O-2 (and the O-5 sperm would be dead) leaving just one attempt to fertilize the egg. But even the O-3 and O Day is STILL one attempt, because if there is anything left from the O-3 attempt, it has a chance to fertilize the egg before the sperm from the O Day shot has capacitated. And if there isn't anything left, then the O Day attempt will have a chance at the egg. And if you really can't stand it, you can even stretch it a day and go to the 96 hour pattern and give it another day between attempts, although that will also cut odds of conception too. Either way, you start the e4d after your period ends (or your last dose of Clomid) and go all thru your entire cycle till you are certain you've ovulated, even if that means you go till your next period begins.

tl;dr: The e4d is a way to guard against early or delayed ovulation while also introducing an element of randomness to the timing of attempt in case you have better chance of conceiving on a different day than the pos OPK.

So I still strongly urge you to go to e4d the second month of the Clomid, then to e4d plus one the third month, but I know you're going to do what you're going to do here, and I do really urge you to at least try the e4d!

[Needhairbowsinmylife]

Thanks for the advice, atomic. I think I will try the one attempt at pos opk for the first month on clomid, then switch to e4d for the remaining 2 mos if it comes to that. I'm reassured that you're confident in my lining . I did have a final question about when to take the clomid. It was prescribed for days 2-6. This seems so early to me compared to other clomid instructions I've heard. I read somewhere the earlier you take it, the more follicles it stimulates (upping chance of multiples) and starting later, commonly I see on day 5, it's less likely to stimulate extra follicles and rather helps the dominant one mature. Is there any validity to this claim, do you know? I want to avoid a multiple pregnancy. I know it's some people's dream, but I doubt my ability to carry a multiple pregnancy and it's definitely not a desire of mine to have more than one new born at a time. I asked the midwife and she'd never heard of such a thing and told me I can start on which ever day in the first week that I want. Any insight appreciated! Thanks for all your help!

[atomic sagebrush]

I have heard that theory a lot, but the thing is, we still see plenty of twins conceived with CD 5-9, and plenty of singletons conceived CD 3-8 (I never suggest it starting CD 2, although it's supposed to be fine taken that day, with the possible exception of people who are ovulating freakishly early like CD 9 or something) I recommend CD 3-7 because I feel we've seen the best chances of conception those days vs. 5-9. I've had several people take it CD 5-9 and not get pregnant. Now, I don't have any hard data to back this up other than my own observation but that's just how it's evolved over time and I feel like our results for pregnancy rates with Clomid are better than they were to start out with and without any more twins than we ever had.

But your midwife is right, you can start Clomid CD 2, 3, 4, 5 or even CD 1 if you want. I prefer 3. And you still have higher chances of multiples with any of those days, it's just one of the effects of the Clomid.

[Needhairbowsinmylife]

Hi Atomic! I'm back after my first round of clomid, and I need more help. The clomid made my hot flashes, insomnia and spotting so much worse. I started spotting 9 dpo (usually 11 dpo) my period came 11 dpo (usually 13 dpo). I did ovulate a day later than normal though and the ovulation pain was definitely more pronounced. The strips gave me an lh surge and I had a temp shift, so still pretty sure I ovulated. My period is very light after this round of clomid, so I worry there was much endometrial lining. I have asked to try femara, but I still have two months of clomid on hand. Femara is supposed to have less effect on lining (from what I've read anyway) but I'm wondering if it's even worth trying or if I have a bigger issue I need to address with my estrogen. Your advice always appreciated.