Why does PCOS sway blue if high fertility is associated with blue?

[emmir4356]

I have a question. Why is it that PCOS women tend to have boys? I thought that couples with high fertility swayed boy. Do the higher androgens trump the lower fertility in PCOS women? Just curious. Thanks, Atomic!

[atomic sagebrush]

There is more than one way to think about fertility and more than one cause of infertility.

There are people who have trouble conceiving because they have LOW hormone levels. People who diet too strictly, who are too thin, who have diseases that render them unable to make hormones normally, who are taking certain herbs and medications that interfere with hormone levels. We call this hypothalamic amenorrhea.

There are people who have trouble conceiving because they are getting older and their bodies have sort of gotten "deaf" to the effects of hormones, even normal levels of hormones don't get them to ovulate and conceive properly. And additionally as we have fewer and fewer eggs due to age, this contributes to this "deafness". Some people have this happen at a younger age and we call this premature ovarian failure but it's a natural process that happens to all of us slowly over the course of time.

And then there are people who have basically too high levels of SOME hormones so their body gets mixed up making the wrong hormones and then not enough of others. Since hormones are all made from the same stuff, sometimes the body gets tricked into making the wrong proportions of hormones. This is where PCOS falls. Their body makes testosterone (due to high blood sugar levels) and in some cases high levels of estrogen as well, and then they don't have enough raw materials to make progesterone.

So while hypothalamic amenorrhea sways pink, and ~possibly~ age related declines in fertility, they are both situations really more of LOWER hormone levels. PCOS is a case of HIGHER hormone levels and the havoc they wreak.

It's almost like with PCOS, this is a bit of an exaggeration but not really, that it's almost like having TOO HIGH fertility, rather than INfertility. PCOS is fixable by changes in diet, we can cut back on the amount of carbs and cals people are eating, have them lose weight and exercise, and by basically declining fertility and declining their hormone levels, we can fix it. PCOS is NOT truly being less fertile, it's more that we're in such good condition (usually eating too much, being overweight, not always but usually) that it actually gets in our way and our body gets mixed up and makes too many of the wrong kinds of hormones.

So long story short, PCOS actually ISN'T lower fertility in the sense that we talk about for swaying. While it is a common cause of people not being able to conceive, the solution is entirely different, the effects are entirely different, and it is not what we're talking about when we talk about "lowering fertility". In fact, the solution for PCOS (which sways blue) IS lowering fertility (which sways pink) and we really have great results for PCOSers on the LE Diet.

[emmir4356]

Reading on your site, PCOS does sway blue but there are women who get girls or all girls with it, without swaying. Do those women tend to have a more mild version?

[atomic sagebrush]

Reading on your site, PCOS does sway blue but there are women who get girls or all girls with it, without swaying. Do those women tend to have a more mild version?

Not necessarily - they're usually on medication or dieting very strictly to control it. So they're not swaying per se but trying to control their PCOS.

It is a rare person who has moderate to severe PCOS, doesn't control their PCO tendencies either with supplements, medication, or diet, and has all girls. Not that common.

[lad]

I wonder if it has less to do with hormones, and more to do with blood sugar. People with PCOS tend to have high blood sugar, (which tells the body "you're in a time of plenty! You have all the food and resources you could want, you are dominant!" and, per the Trivers Williard Hypothesis, sways blue. Women who are strictly controlling their PCOS via diet and exercise have lower blood sugar, which enables them to conceive a more even mix girls and boys.

Where as all-girl moms, on the other hand, tend to have bodies that respond normally to insulin, and also eat in a way that keeps their blood sugar low (intermittent fasting, no snacking, whole grain carbs, e.g. PCOS LE diet, or occasional spurts of processed carbs that cause spikes in blood sugar and then long periods of low blood sugar), all of which suggests to the body that they they are in a time of scarcity, and would be better off conceiving a girl. I think that weight loss could also be a mechanism... lowered blood sugar levels = weight loss = less fat = fewer hormones produced = more girls.

Thoughts?

[atomic sagebrush]

Trivers Willard is actually about maternal condition - it's the research done by Elissa Cameron based on TW and also MDH that indicates it's blood sugar. just wanted to clarify that because TWH doesn't have any mention of blood sugar in it.

The thing is when it comes to PCOS, testosterone and blood sugar are all wrapped up with each other. The higher blood sugar causes the cysts on the ovaries and the increase in testosterone. I agree that blood sugar is a more plausible explanation for all those reasons you say but because the OP mentioned androgens, and the hormones and the blood sugar are all wrapped up together, I just took that tack in answering since it was already a long answer.

I do want to mention that at least some girl moms actually have trouble with gestational diabetes, being overweight, PCO, that kind of thing. But they control those things thru diet and exercise and in some cases, medication. i just didn't want anyone to read "tend to have bodies that respond normally to insulin" and then have people saying "but that isn't true for me".

[emmir4356]

Have you noticed that women who have higher androgens coming from the adrenal glands have more girls or boys than a woman having androgens from the ovaries? (IE higher DHEA levels as opposed to testosterone). I have noticed that in general even a lot of lean PCOS women have boys, even when they take the recommended medications and lower carb diet, etc. Thoughts?

Also, I know you aren't a doctor, but do you think it is possible to have PCOS with a normal menstrual cycle?

If I do get a diagnosis of PCOS from the doctor (I already have suspected PCOS) , do you think I will be able to get clomid right away or will they make me TTC for a while before being able to use it? Hoping it will help my sway..

[atomic sagebrush]

We don't have the ability to study stuff like that. Those are the types of things I wish that scientists were more willing to help with. As it is now, we don't even have any hard evidence that could be gleaned from a simple blood test before conception, let alone something that specific.

Yes you can absolutely have PCO-tendencies with a normal menstrual cycle. The way PCOS works is that most, if not all of us would develop PCOS if our lifestyle supported it strongly enough. It's not like a disease per se, it's something irritatting that the body does naturally in response to stimulus. Some people develop it easily, others can eat tons of sugar and be slightly overweight and never get it, and then most of us are somewhere in between. So it's def. possible to be a person who WOULD develop PCO, even have the tendency to get it rather easily and have some of the markers/precursors for it, and yet not have the syndrome, have perfectly regular cycles, and yes, even have all boys with that hormonal profile.

If your cycle is regular the odds are very slim you'll be given Clomid without trying for 6-12 months. Now, some have fudged that and said they've been trying longer than they really have but that's a slippery slope because not all docs will give you the Clomid without further testing in that circumstance. It can sometimes open a can of worms that people would prefer to remain UNopened, LOL. So just keep that in your mind as a possibility but don't freak out if they don't give it to you or more likely, ask you do some testing first. You don't have to do the testing. They may set up the appointment and then just say you decided to try naturally instead. This happens all the time and is no biggie, not at all unusual.

[emmir4356]

So what is it about all boy parents that causes the high fertility? What are the factors that determine whether a couple is “highly fertile”? Higher testosterone and blood sugars? Does testosterone matter in men at all?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[atomic sagebrush]

We don't know but it's one of the few areas on which all sway theories agree.

More food, better rested, higher blood sugar, more muscle mass, better quality EWCM, for men higher sperm count which is dependent on higher testosterone, lower BMI, better health (no health issues like high blood pressure) not on medications, even genetic factors like height may be associated with more boys conceived. Lots of things and these things may be different for any given couple vs. any other and may vary for couples over time. Like I said somehwere along the way LOL this is like an iceberg anyway, and the stuff we can "see" above the water is likely minuscule compared to what lies beneath.

We suspect testosterone in men matters but there's really no hard evidence. Even for women, the evidence of T swaying is very sketchy, based on personality tests and not blood tests (and subsequent studies have shown that testosterone levels in women does NOT affect personality...soooo).