LE Standard or PCOS?

[atomic sagebrush]

Well, Clomid does make a lot of side effects and can dramatically alter temps as well, unfortunately.

You can take the Clomid 5-6 months before having a break altho more and more they're having you guys take breaks more around 3-4 month mark.

If you're ready to add an attempt at positive OPK that's fine by me. Just make sure you've got the e4d pattern continuing on before and after that attempt. Some people stop at the positive OPK attempt but you should be doing the e4d all along.

If you think egg quality is an issue you'd need to not only drop sugar, but switch to whole grains instead of white refined grains, and use full fat dairy only, no skim or part skim. Up protein and fat to 50-60 g daily (not counting fruits and veg, which you don't count pro and fat in them).

[onelittlewish]

Thank you Atomic for the info, I'll do one last round on Clomid then I'll take a break. I am not sure if I have egg quality issue or not. I never did any blood test on the hormones (I think that's what you need to assess the egg quality right?). But I guess cutting sugar and white carbs will do more good than harm anyway. I eat mostly whole grains in my diet and the only white carbs are from my desserts after meal (cake, cookies etc). I don't crave for sugar that much now so I'll try to cut the dessert out entirely. Would this change have a positive impact on the coming cycle or only the eggs maturing 3 months later?

[atomic sagebrush]

Yes, they'd do blood work but in most cases what people do is simply go on the alternate diet as a preemptive strike (it's at least as good if not better for your sway, to do that version of the LE Diet). That way if there are any unknown factors you can just roll with that and get the benefits even if you don't truly have an issue.

It has an immediate result. While eggs do take "3 months to mature" they're in the process of development all the time and any change during that time period is beneficial. For all we know, they're more susceptible to damage as they are closer to ovulation so it very easily might benefit the eggs coming soon more than the eggs that are in the early stages!

[onelittlewish]

Ok I am going to give my best shot to cut out sugar and white carbs this month. I used to eat wheat toast with cheese but I don’t think that's good enough for whole grain diet? Can I eat all bran for breakfast? What are considered “fortified cereals”?

If I am doing e4d + 1 attempt (and I’d like to have that attempt on the day after pos OPK), does that mean I keep the e4d pattern and add the 1 attempt on the corresponding day? Say, if the pos opk is on CD13 and I start on the day of my last pill, then it will look like

CD7 BD
CD8 skip
CD 9 skip
CD 10 BD
CD 11 skip
CD 12 skip
CD 13 BD (pos opk)
CD 14 BD (+1 attempt)
CD 15 skip
CD 16 BD
CD 17 skip
CD 18 skip
CD 19 BD

So there will always 2 BDs in a row that’s why it’s more blue friendly correct? Would this boost the chance to conceive significantly?

And last question…I am taking 2x 1000mcg folic acid now, should I switch to folate? Would it make a difference and if so what dosage do you recommend?

[atomic sagebrush]

As long as it's whole wheat and not just "wheat" (which isn't actually whole grain) then that is fine.

Most cereals are fortified. If you look on the label and there's a lot of vitamins in it, it's fortified. I looked on the label of Kellogs brand All Bran and it was definitely fortified.

Yes, that's right. You do the e4d whenever it falls, do not change the e4d, just keep going with it before and after. Then you drop the additional attempt either at positive OPK, or if you prefer, the day after. If it lands on the same day you were due for an attempt, have TWO attempts either on the same day or the day before or after. (Note - I see a real downside with planning to have the attempt the day after positive OPK. If you were due to have an attempt that day, and end up thinking you'll have the attempt the next day instead, you will very likely be out of the fertile window with that second attempt. This is one of the reasons why I prefer you guys to do the extra attempt at the positive OPK - because if you end up needing an extra attempt because both attempts fall the same day, it will be the day after pos OPK and not TWO days after - which can easily be too late.)

To illustrate, imagine you had attempt CD 11, get positive OPK CD 13, now you are due for both your e4d attempt and your extra attempt CD 14. So you then do the extra attempt the next day, CD 15, but then by the time CD 15 rolls around, you're very likely too late to help. If you O on CD 14, it's too late, if you O on CD 13, WAY too late. I really don't think having the extra attempt the day after positive OPK is as good for this reason. Your call, but that's somethign that occurs to me as a potential pitfall.

Yes, two attempts significantly raises chances of conception not only because it's more sperm, but also because you're doubling your chances of timing an attempt at a good point in time to conceive with.

Folate is considered better, though most people can do folic acid just fine. Totally your call to make, I don't think that's why you haven't gotten pregnant but it doesn't hurt and may help to make the switch.

[onelittlewish]

I always have the thought in mind that I should add an attempt the day after pos OPK because I always have pos OPK for 2 entire days and from my history of tracking this year, 70% of the time I ovulated 2 days after pos and the other 30% on the day after. But I tried mapping out different scenarios visually and you are right, with e4d + extra attempt on first pos OPK I will have O-1 mostly covered no matter I O earlier or later, and in the worst case scenario (pos CD12 & 13, attempt CD11, 12, 14 and O on 14) the attempts will be on O-2 and O. But if I always O following the pos OPK and if we are doing 2 attempts with this pattern, wouldn't it be safer if we just do regular release and then 2 attempts on pos OPK and the next day? Then in all scenarios I will have an attempt on O-1. You know what I mean?

I am still torn about the number of attempts. I just got this "1 attempt is gold" idea and I can't shake it. Is it too fast to add extra attempt after only 1 month on e4d? How do you determine if I really need the extra attempt? How are the results with e4d +1 with diet, Clomid, exercise, coffee & alcohol? Particularly e4d+1 with Clomid? Do you think e4d+1 with Clomid will give me a better chance of having pink over 1 attempt without Clomid? The time pressure on Clomid is by far the greatest stressor for me but I don't want to jump the gun too. I am so sorry that I have so many questions and I know it's really my call to make but I am lost as to what to do.

[atomic sagebrush]

And you're basing your belief on when you ovulated on what? Temping? Because temping can only get the day of ovulation correct 1 out of 3 months in studies. It is entirely possible that you ovulated on a different day some or even all of those times. Only ultrasound and blood work done in a lab can accurately pinpoint O Day.

No, it is not safer to just have two attempts. Up above I went into a very long explanation of why this is, but to sum that up, the e4d both guards against early or delayed ovulation, and also introduces that element of randomness (since it's entirely possible to basically outwit yourself and have attempts on days you BELIEVE are good, when the day before or after may have actually been better).

The truth is, I can't determine who needs an additional attempt. But whenever someone only has, or is only doing, 3 months Clomid, I do first month nothing, second month e4d, third month e4d plus one unless there is a very good reason not to do that. Look, I'm the one who noticed the one attempt swaying pink in the first place. I have had ten years to watch people doing all sorts of sways, and I promise, one attempt not only is NOT gold, it's not a magic bullet, or a sure thing, or any such thing. That is why we invented the e4d and the e4d plus one is because the one attempt was a) not perfect still yielding plenty of boys and b) cut odds of conception by so much and c) is very stressful for people in that control freaky way which may sway blue anyway.

Clomid is better than one attempt. This is because it is always possible for one attempt to mess up, not work, backfire somehow, etc With Clomid, all you have to do is pop a pill for 5 days and immediately you get a MINIMUM of 3-5% solid pink sway and probably more (since the stats that show Clomid gives girls 3-5% more of the time are in people who were not even swaying, and in fact were likely doing lots of things to boost fertility, all of which would have swayed blue) It would be a big step in the wrong direction to give up Clomid (sure thing, can't go wrong) to keep one attempt (hard work to pull off, and easy to get it wrong)!

[onelittlewish]

thank you Atomic it’s super helpful. Yes I based my O date only on OPK and temping and I always thought that you can most accurately pinpoint O with opk + temping! Good to know, now I can stop over analyzing my charts. I can get 6 cycles of Clomid but I am not comfortable to max it out. And Im having a hard time keeping the weight on again so i am convinced that e4d + an extra attempt on pos opk is what i really really really need now.

Technical question, if I get a pos opk at night, do we add an attempt on that night or the next day? I usually get pos early in the morning and the pos will last last for two full days or I get it later in the day and it last till the noon of the day after.

[atomic sagebrush]

Well, it's true, you CAN "most accurately" pinpoint ovulation with OPK and temping - but temping is still only accurate 1 out of 3 times to pinpoint ovulation, and we have wrong OPK constantly. (Note - Above I wrote MONTHS when I meant DAYS). Even highly trained experts, with cutting edge technology, could not accurately get their ovulation day correct any better than 33% of the time in studies using temping. That is why for natural family planning methods for birth control, you have to wait three days to have unprotected sex again - because one temp, or even two, can be inaccurate and it's only once you can be certian that temps are actually high that it's ok to have sex again.

fine to go to e4d plus one now especially if you're having trouble keeping the weight on.

Add the attempt whenever it makes most sense to you. If it's that night, that's fine, though sperm count will be somewhat lowered you'll still be adding SOME swimmers. If the next day, that's fine too (and sperm count will have recovered by that point). I like you guys to retain flexibility because we have no idea what is the "best" way and the "best" way likely varies by person by month anyway.

[onelittlewish]

Hi Atomic, I am at 13dpo today and my temp dropped below coverline this morning so I was expecting my period but nothing showed up yet. I tested again this morning and in the afternoon both came back negative. This is the same test that I got my positive with my second son at 8dpo so I am sure they are pretty accurate. Maybe my LP is longer this cycle? I guess only time will tell...

I have had the weirdest cycle this month. We had our e4d attempts on CD7 & CD11. Then I went to dr for a check up on CD12 because I had large clots during last menstruation. She checked my uterus lining and dominant follicle size, 0.81 and 2cm respectively and she said everything looked great. I got my +OPK the next day on CD13 so we had our additional attempt. Then the next day I got suspected yeast infection. My dr said it's ok to have sex and I didn't want to miss the chance so we had our e4d attempt on CD14. Then after that my bartholin gland flared up again and we couldn't continue our e4d. My temp showed that I O'd on CD15. Then at 6dpo I started spotting. First pinkish creamy discharge then bright red watery blood. On 8dpo I was worried that it was caused from inflammation so I went in for another check up. Doc took some sample for culture test and said it's def not menstruation and most probably from the inflammation asked me to keep observing. When I got home I bled again and there was bright red blood on my underwear about 10cm in length. Then the spotting stopped after that. On the morning of 11dpo I spotted again but just 1x wipe. I tested everyday from 10dpo and all BFN. If any of the spotting is from implantation, I should be getting at least a faint positive by now right? Here is my chart for easier reference..

F1FD8F8E-0B49-42AB-ABB1-E81FB6203A1E.jpeg

Can clomid cause mid cycle spotting? Or my weight? I lost a pound in the first two weeks and another pound in the third week. Then past few days I started eating whatever I want and gained back a pound (so quite some sugary and white carbs). Now my bmi is 18.3 and I know it's bad..but I am eating 3 meals a day and I have shortened night fast to 13 hours and adding whole eggs and eating meat with every meal and loads of fruits and bread. I still have trouble keeping the weight on. What should I do? Should I still try to cut out sugar and white carbs for the sake of my egg quality and eat more fat/protein instead? Can my weight the problem to conceive, even though I am ovulating on time? Thank you so much...I have been very confused as to what is going on with my body and it's just so hard not to stress.