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  1. #1
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    atomic sagebrush's Avatar
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    articles and studies about why abstain is not good for males over 35

    Edited and updated 12-8-17

    PLEASE DO NOT DO ABSTAIN IF YOUR HUSBAND IS OVER 35.

    Why?

    There are really three separate variables in the equation - abstinence makes worse sperm (fact), older men's sperm is worse to begin with (fact), and older men father more children with birth defects and serious disorders like autism and schizophrenia to begin with (fact).

    Net result : abstain + older dads = too risky for my liking. The older he is, the riskier it gets.

    Please note, there are other things that can damage sperm and sperm DNA besides age, so if your husband has been diagnosed with poor sperm quality to begin with, drinks alcohol/smokes either reg. or special cigarettes, is obese, works around industrial chemicals/electromagnetic fields/nuclear energy, jogs a lot or bikes a lot, is a deep sea diver/anesthetist/radiologist/fighter pilot, takes drugs either recreationally or for medical purposes, or anything else going on that has you concerned about his sperm quality, you may want to consider choosing either FR or regular release instead of abstain even if he is less than 35. All those things are known to damage sperm.

    Many people have believed that if their husband doesn't do anything that harms sperm health and he's in good overall condition, that it is ok for him to do abstain even if he is over 35. This is not the case. The issue with age and sperm health is not a man's overall health, it is the number of times his DNA has divided over the course of his life. Tiny errors in DNA replication sneak in over the course of time. The older a man gets, the more opportunities for DNA errors to accumulate. No matter how healthy a husband is, abstain is not a good idea, and the further beyond 35 he is, the more important it is that he avoid this tactic like the plague.

    Abstain has not been getting stellar results for us anyway (worse than the overall stats of the site) and it is not worth any level of risk. Don't take chances for something that doesn't even work!!

    Articles/studies that indicate abstinence makes poor sperm (the articles are actually talking about the studies, so I am posting them because I find the articles easier to understand for the layman, often have quotes and further information from the researchers themselves, and also because so many studies are impossible to find the full text of.)

    Abstinence 'reduces sperm strength' - Telegraph
    Will Abstaining From Having Sex Help Improve Sperm Count? (also explains why FR makes fewer but better sperm)
    Abstinence Reduces Sperm Viability in Infertile Men[/url] (states very clearly that long abstain is not recommended for any man, even with normal sperm count so when people on other swaying sites suggest abstaining longer than 14 days, beware.)
    Relationship between the duration of sexual ab... [Fertil Steril. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI (this is the abstract on the study itself)
    Semen analysis in fertile patients undergoin... [Sao Paulo Med J. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI (abstinence causes reduced sperm motility)
    Effect of long abstinen... [Int J Fertil Menopausal Stud. 1994 Sep-Oct] - PubMed - NCBI (abstinence means more old sperm - senesence means "old age" aka senile!)
    Influence of the abstinence period on human sp... [Fertil Steril. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI (this shows abstains less than a week are ok but very small number of subjects)
    Influence of a short or long abstinence period... [Fertil Steril. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI (abstinence may even make sperm count go UP!)

    Articles/studies that indicate older men have more genetic damage to sperm and/or lower sperm quality to begin with:

    Male Fertility and Age – Does Age Affect Male Fertility
    Advancing age has differential effects on DNA damage, chromatin integrity, gene mutations, and aneuploidies in sperm
    Relationship between age and semen parameters in ... [Andrologia. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI
    Older Men's Sperm Raise Risk Of Genetic Problems In Offspring
    Older fathers run higher risk of fetal defects - 28 February 2002 - New Scientist

    Articles/studies that show the offspring of older dads have more birth defects and other disorders including autism, bipolar, Down Syndrome, schizophrenia, cleft palate, dwarfism, Turner Syndrome, Kleinfelter Syndrome

    (Atomic's editorial note - the sample size in some of these studies are HUGE, tens and even hundreds of thousands of subjects over many years and from many different countries - these risks are real and everyone should take them very seriously. It makes me not know whether to laugh or cry that some sway sites tell everyone to do O+12 based on a sample size of 33 (only 2 of whom DTD on O+12) and then belittle the risks of abstaining for older men abstinence=damaged sperm??? - In-Gender.com) And just to further expand upon this, Tamara is giving an inexcusable amount of misinformation in this thread. You cannot see DNA damage through a microscope, period, end of story. Here is a link that describes how complicated it is to test sperm's DNA. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...10569013000137 NOTE - they don't do it by looking for "black sperm" on a toy microscope. And if I sound ticked off about this, I am, because one of the women in this thread actually DID have a baby with a serious genetic health condition.

    Advancing age has differential effects on DNA damage, chromatin integrity, gene mutations, and aneuploidies in sperm
    Male biological clock possibly linked to autism, other disorders : Article : Nature Medicine
    Risk of autism spikes for children of older men
    Older Fathers, Lower IQ in Kids?
    Schizophrenia.com - Schizophrenia Cause, Father's Age
    More bad news for the children of older fathers | Psychology Today
    Older fathers run higher risk of fetal defects - 28 February 2002 - New Scientist

    Paternal Age Effect: How Old is Too Old?: June 2010 (this appears to be an entire BLOG about the risks of older parenthood)

    Aside from all this - abstain has not even worked for us!!! Why would you incur any level of risk for a sway tactic that actually is getting LOWER than our overall success rates of the site!!! DON'T do it!! It just isn't worth any risk for something that doesn't even help one bit.

    And one final note - older men may have higher odds of conceiving a girl ANYWAY so why would you up your already higher risks doing abstain??

    Why Are Older Parents More Likely to Have Daughters? | Psychology Today
    Last edited by atomic sagebrush; December 8th, 2017 at 06:21 PM.
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  2. #2
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    So since abstaining is in my Plan should I be worried seeing my husband is going to be 34 this year, right on the cusp? He was quite dissapointed we were going the abstinence route over fr ESP because he thought I would be assisting him, lol!
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    Hoping I stop calling her 'little dude, bud' and him real soon

  3. #3
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    It's not like flipping a switch where one day you're ok and the next you'll have dire consequences, it's that there is a gradual accumulation of DNA damage over time just as a consequence of being alive and the older you are, the greater the odds that damage will have accumulated.

    There are guys who father perfect babies at 70 years old and guys who father a child with birth defects at 21, KWIM? It's jsut that statistically at a certain age, the odds start to go up beyond what I would feel comfortable doing abstain with. It's up to each individual couple to assess the risks and decide what they want to do.

    If you want to change the plan, I can do that, just let me know!
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  4. #4
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    Hi atomic, just wondering how long of an abstinence would you consider too long for a 40yr old male? Our attempt is coming up and whilst DH has a high sex drive, he has never been into FR on his own which is why I was considering an abstinence of 7 days then BD the day before O day or even just 1 attempt at my first positive OPK. Should we cut the abstinence to 5 days or is this still too long?

    My only other option is frequent BD through ovulation. Is this a viable option to sway girl? If so, how many days prior to O would we start to BD and how often?

    Thankyou for adding this thread with all the info....I think it's a really important factor to consider for us older couples beacuse at the end of the day we all want healthy babies on this site!!

  5. #5
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    My DH is 37, 38 this year. We basically do everything to get healthy sperm out of him as he drinks alcohol regularly and works at a uranium mine! I would much prefer another healthy boy to a sick girl at the end of the day. Thanks for the reports AS.

  6. #6
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    these should go in the complete-study thread too

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by threelittlebears View Post
    Hi atomic, just wondering how long of an abstinence would you consider too long for a 40yr old male? Our attempt is coming up and whilst DH has a high sex drive, he has never been into FR on his own which is why I was considering an abstinence of 7 days then BD the day before O day or even just 1 attempt at my first positive OPK. Should we cut the abstinence to 5 days or is this still too long?

    My only other option is frequent BD through ovulation. Is this a viable option to sway girl? If so, how many days prior to O would we start to BD and how often?

    Thankyou for adding this thread with all the info....I think it's a really important factor to consider for us older couples beacuse at the end of the day we all want healthy babies on this site!!
    I would personally not recommend abstain of 7 days for a 40 year old. 5 days is prob ok but it doesn't sway pink.

    FR or compressed FR are both options and you can read all about them here: http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gend...pink-blue.html
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  8. #8
    Swaying Advice Coach
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeonyPrincess View Post
    My DH is 37, 38 this year. We basically do everything to get healthy sperm out of him as he drinks alcohol regularly and works at a uranium mine! I would much prefer another healthy boy to a sick girl at the end of the day. Thanks for the reports AS.
    I totally agree Peony! That was my philosophy going into getting pg with DS 3 and 4 - my husband drinks beer and welds all day long - I wanted the healthiest sperm I could get my eggs on!
    !!! Questions?? Check out the NEW and improved Complete Index !!!

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  9. #9
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    I agree with your findings but want to clarify..

    I get that abstain reduces sperm quality and number so decreases fertility.. and maybe that if quality is reduced one could extrapolate that it might increase a risk of birth defects.

    and that old guys have babies with more birth defects...

    but is there any data that directly links abstaining to birth defects?

    I mean, I get that anything that reduces sperm quality would potentially not be good for guys who already have a higher risk but I wonder if those sperm would even make it to the egg. Who knows, right?

    I have just seen a lot of swayers say (not you but others) "abstaining causes an increase in birth defects in men over 35" but do we have any data that actually shows that is true? Yes, they have an increased risk anyway because they are old but do men who abstain have more birth defects than similar aged men who don't? Is there any data about that? Is it just theoretical extrapolation that worse quality sperm will increase risk? Unfortunately, I can't make DH any younger! LOL!
    Swayed ! Blessed with a !!
    On the LE diet from October 26, 2011 until BFP 3/21/12. Born November 29, 2012

    "Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life" Proverbs 13:12. Thank you Lord for answering my prayers!!

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  10. #10
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    Thanks Atomic!
    Awesome collection of information there - will be sharing it DH as he is curious to learn more
    Up till now the conversation has been:
    DH 'exactly how is w*****g every day going to help?!?'
    Me: for your sperm count, lowering it sway pink
    DH: cant i abstain to achieve the same thing?
    Me: No
    DH: but why?!?
    Me: Because Atomic on my special website said so
    DH *walks away mumbling* Ok, fine, whatever atomic said.


    (though he isnt going to like all the times the word 'old' is mentioned, he is a bit precious about his age LOL)
    Mummy to DS10 who is the light of our world
    Swayed took us 8 cycle's and I'm finally

    Please be a sticky little bean, we have wished and hoped for you for so long xo

    Our family welcomed a in May 2013 and thats ok, we're head over heels in love with him and feel blessed to be honoured with 2 sons

    January 2014 - A little surprise that went to heaven before we could meet

    October 2014 - Officially swaying for one last little bundle and wishing and hoping its a pink one

    April 2015 - All our dreams have miraculously come true, our sway worked and our family will be complete with the little girl joining us in October this year

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