Juggling multiple concerns while trying to sway pink

I feel like we have so much to juggle and wonder if anyone has any advice/suggestions. And I am sorry this will be long because there is much to explain.

First, some background on us. We have two gorgeous boys, DS1 (2007) and DS2(2013). I wanted DS1 to be a boy and tried swaying with some general Shettles info I had at the time and of course, thought my timing plan had succeeded when he was born. I then tried to sway girl with timing with our second but didn't try too hard because I was really just hoping for a healthy baby (we had had a pregnancy loss at 11 weeks before conceiving DS2).

I realize now, from reading info here, that I definitely was swaying boy for both of them because I was very well nourished both times and was very "Martha" when TTC, charting, watching EWCM, and stressing a lot.

DS1 has autism and for a while we thought we might not try for more children as we wanted to be able to give him all the attention he needed. But then he started doing so well we opened the door again and decided to have another. The plan was to have one more and honestly, I really thought we would just get a girl. We did not find out gender during the pregnancy and at the birth, I was surprised but over the moon with our gorgeous little new boy.

But as soon as DS2 was born I started wanting another. Partly for one last chance to have a girl but also because my dream was always to have more kids and having DS2 showed us we could do it. DS1 is still doing great and he loves DS2 and we are managing fine even though some days are very hard.

I am 41 (turning 42 in the fall) and DH is 46. DS2 turns 1 yr old next week. DH has been quite against having another for awhile but recently has begun to warm to the idea. So, obviously, given our age, the first thought would be for us to start TTC right away. This would give us the best chance fertility-wise, for sure.

However, we have two wrinkles in THAT plan. One is that DS2 was a C-section so I need to wait until he is at least 18 months old to reduce the risk of uterine rupture (my midwives were very clear on this point). And the second is, given DS1's ASD, it is best for us to wait until DS2 is 2 yrs old before TTC. Otherwise, the risk of the next baby having ASD is hugely increased. And I mean by a very large amount. And as I researched this this week, I realized it is a non-negotiable for me. I definitely want to wait until DS2 is 2 yrs old. Waiting even longer would reduce the risk even more but I feel comfortable with the much lower risk at 2 yrs and waiting longer would push us too far out of my comfort zone for our age.

BUT waiting until next year means our fertility may be significantly lowered. This is sad but I feel it is the trade-off for having the lower ASD risk.

And one other piece of the ASD risk is that it is important to be well-nourished before TTC because there is evidence that a mother deficient in vitamins/minerals may increase the ASD risk. This is one reason closely spaced births might increase the ASD risk.

So, here is my big question: how do we sway girl given all of this? We will likely have lowered fertility so we will need to do things to increase our fertility but not so much as to completely sway boy. I want to do the LE diet BUT still stay nourished enough to reduce the ASD risk. I also want to stay well-nourished for as long as possible to ensure as healthy eggs as possible.

Phew! Does anyone think this is still doable? Is there a way to balance these concerns and still manage to sway pink? :think:

No advice, just wanted to let you know I worry LE will increase autism risk as well and it is something that weighs in me. My only compromise on that has been trying to avoid preservatives, dyes, hfcs, Trans fats, etc when I can. I honestly think chemicals in our food affect things more than say a low protein or low fat diet would but who really knows!

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Hopefully atomic will be able to answer some of these questions. From the reading I have done though I think it's really still possible to have a good sway without being undernourished. Eg you could go vegetarian, drop snacking, do the one attempt - without abstain given your ages, and do the exercise. These things will still push you over in the girl direction. Have you thought about high tech? You sound like a good candidate for it if you could convince DH.

Bluebonnet, that's a good thought. I do eat all organic and avoid the artificial stuff so maybe it would be okay. But I agree that I do worry that the LE diet may nudge us in the ASD risk area if done too extremely.

Covered in blue, I like your ideas for modifiying the LE diet and doing some exercise. Makes sense. We would not be able to afford HT and I don't think I would be up for it. I mean, it seems very involved and I think it would be too much for me while also homeschooling my boys.

I highly doubt the LE diet would cause autism. In the tww the baby has the nutrients it requires in its eggy state (blastocyst or something I could have made tht up lol) and once you find out you're pregnant you eat normally anyway. My ds2 is autistic and non verbal but his brothers are neurotypical and chatting away. I didnt alter my diet for any of them. I have a friend whose husband is autistic and they have had 3 autistic children. It makes me wonder if its sometimes genetic? I dunno, either way I wouldnt worry about the diet increasing autism risks. Just take your folic acid and baby will have the best chance.

These comments pain me to read. :( Atomic has put her life & soul into researching soooo much to ensure that both the LE diet & HE diet are safe for us to follow before conception. She's based the LE diet on WHO recommendations & would not suggest anything harmful to health. This is NOT IG & you do not have to do everything to sway, only what you want to do - it's your sway after all :)

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It's fine to ask questions though! Everyone needs to get it straight in their mind that they are doing the right thing.

Atomic would not recommend anything that puts us or our unborn babies at risk and has based her recommendations on WHO recommendations as dreamofpink says. Completely understand your concerns and I wish you the best of luck with your decision.

I am doing the LE diet but I do not consider myself undernourished at all. I try for 1800-2000 cals, 50-60g protein a day and 30% of cals from fat. I eat LOADS of vegetables, fruit, salads, veggie soups. I believe that I eat healthily and I pig out and go way over every weekend. Some people take the diet way too far, but thats their choice, you just have to do what feels right for you. Atomic makes recommendations which are a target, you dont have to strictly go to the lower limits of them or even the higher limits, they are just targets and you decide what you are comfortable with.

Oh I feel terrible! I am so sorry!

I did not mean to imply that the LE diet put general people at risk. I definitely did not mean to say Atomic would support something like that. I realize now that it sounds that way and I really apologize. I was careless and tactless in my posts.

I got all caught up in my head about our specific case with already having a kid with ASD. Not everyone will understand this but I KNOW his autism came about from something my body did during his pregnancy. There are 14 grandchildren in our family. 10 on my husband's side and 4 on my side. My DS1 is the ONLY one who has any issues at all. Every single other kid is healthy in every way. My DS1 has a host of health issues. ASD. Verbal Apraxia. Multiple life-threatening food allergies. Asthma. Midline defects. The only thing it could have come from is MY BODY. My body did something to him. My guess is it was related to my MTHFR mutation which was linked to my nutrient status and my folic acid levels in particular. I have done tons of research on this and I know it to be true. I thought maybe in my case the LE diet might not be as good an idea, if say I was already prone to not transferring nutrients as well to my growing babies.

Anyway I am truly sorry. :SS:

Aw hon - I'm sorry I was just trying to reassure you. I didn't think you were implying that about the diet but I thought you had concerns which are perfectly natural. It's hard with the written word I guess. I'm really sorry if I came across as anything other than trying to reassure. This site is so supportive and friendly, I promise x

Sorry if I made you (or anyone else!) feel worse as well. I don't believe the LE diet as written contributes to autism at all. I make poor choices all the time (eating food from restaurants, alcohol, etc) and its easy to be paranoid I'm affecting my future children in some way. I do think you can still follow LE and opt for healthier choices and still get your DD! GL, this is a great site and LE has a ton of flexibility.

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Beingmommy - please don't feel bad. You certainly did NOT come across as tactless and careless. It's perfectly understandable that you want to sort this out. I guess many people just wanted to reassure you as Atomic wanted to create a swaying approach and an atmosphere where no one has to feel pressured to do anything unsafe. And also a supportive atmosphere - so you did right to ask this and to seek advice!!!

I totally understand your concerns. My oldest has ASD as well. I have to say though you really can't tell what caused it. It's impossible to do everything just right to avoid it. Sometimes things just happen. IT's easy to blame ourselves as mothers but we all do the best we can. Your sons asd could be a fluke of nature. Like I said my oldest has asd but my other two boys do not and I didn't really do anything different during pregnancy. It's very scary for me to even have a 4th because I feel I won't get away with it again...kwim?? The thing is though..The stress and worry is just as likely to raise the risk of autism so I've tried not to think about it.

Oh thank you everyone. I DO feel like I could have worded things better. I definitely do NOT think that the LE diet in general leads to an increased risk for ASD. But I am concerned, as I said, that in my particular family and my body, I need to make sure I get enough, probably more than enough, nutrition to make sure I am doing everything I can. My DS1 is the most wonderful gift and he has made us better people and parents but I am so sad for the struggles he has to endure with his own body/mind. And sad with the ever present feeling I have that had I done some things differently, he might have had less to struggle with.

I have found everyone here to be very supportive and friendly and I am so happy to have found this site. I do feel that once I have figured out the best way to do things for us, we will be able to sway girl to the best of our ability. And I really appreciate all the kindness here and the amazing amount of information Atomic has amassed.

Rosie85, you are so right about stress not being good. And I am terrible about stressing about things. I REALLY need to learn to chill out. My "Martha-ness" is ever present. LOL.

And I know what you mean about wondering if having a fourth means you won't get away with it. I feel that way too. Like I think, should we quit while we are ahead? DS1 is doing okay. DS2 seems NT so far and is so healthy and wonderful. Maybe I am tempting fate. But then I think I feel so much better being hopeful and trusting that it's okay to want more.

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Originally Posted by bluebonnet22

Sorry if I made you (or anyone else!) feel worse as well. I don't believe the LE diet as written contributes to autism at all. I make poor choices all the time (eating food from restaurants, alcohol, etc) and its easy to be paranoid I'm affecting my future children in some way. I do think you can still follow LE and opt for healthier choices and still get your DD! GL, this is a great site and LE has a ton of flexibility.

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Don't be daft hun, i dont think you made anyone feel worse. I hope my comment didnt make it seem that way. I am probably slightly defensive when it comes to the 'causes' of asd.

Whatever you do in your sway, it doesn't matter as long as you are happy- if diet worries you alter it to suit. It's only one factor of our sways after all. :happy:

Hugs. Have you spoke to atomic about buying a personalised plan? Its perfect as she will tailor it to your specific concerns and issues you want taken into account. Health and well being are the main concern here for mother and baby. And it helps make Martha redundant. Coaching service included for 6 months so helps keep Martha at bay ;) xx
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Sounds like you have some decisions to make. I would love the coaching. I think things are different for us given out ages. (I'm 38... And just had ds4.) I hope you get your answers.

Btw...
What does everyone mean by Martha? Lol I've read it a few times now.



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This is the Martha / Mary thread .... its a very interesting read, enjoy :) xx

http://genderdreaming.com/forum/gend...ypothesis.html

Thank you lol I'm going to read it now.


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LE Diet does NOT cause autism. I looked into it extensively over the past 6 years and I believe this to be coincidental and not causal. The rates of autism have skyrocketed in recent years and it is NOT because "women aren't taking prenatals for 3 months before conception". NO ONE took prenatals before conception until very very recently and rates of autism were much lower. Honestly, I kind of wonder if prenatals and highly fortified foods might CAUSE autism!

The "prenatals before conception" thing ignores two huge confounding factors - socioeconomic status/good living conditions/lifestyle (gals who take prenatals for 3 months preconception are a different group than those who do not) and women planning pregnancies and avoiding things that are bad for them (women who weren't taking prenatals may not have been planning a pg and may have been exposed to and doing lots of lifestyle related things that may not have been good for a developing baby). It also included the first month of pregnancy but I have everyone take prenatals beginning at BFP and also recommend DHA supps. The study also found NO difference in autism rates with moms who were taking a regular multivitamin preconception - and most multivitamins have very similar nutrient profiles to prenatals so it is almost certaily NOT the nutrients themselves but some other cofactor.

And there is no differentiation between what nutrient was even causing a connection, if any truly were. It may have been one nutrient in isolation and Autism Speaks believes it's folic (and have a good logical case supporting it http://www.autismspeaks.org/science/...rease-autism-r) I have everyone take folic and many people also take supplemental iodine or use iodine supplements (which also help with brain development).

I know tons of women who did everything in their power to avoid autism in their kids and still have autistic kids. MPO is that a lot of the "studies" that try to shift blame onto mothers are coming from vitamin peddlers and/or people who have a vested interest in shifting blame away from environmental toxins back onto the mother.

Another thing to seriously consider is that older parents also have more autism in their kids so postponing TTC may not help as much as you think.

It is your life and your sway and it is as always up to you to decide these things, but ~to me~ it seems a bit of a step in the wrong direction to postpone conception at 41 to try and prevent birth defects when one thing that has been much much more definitively proven to cause issues with babies, is older parental ages.

I cannot say strongly enough how much I would not recommend anything that I felt to be less than safe.

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Originally Posted by ratcliffe1811

I highly doubt the LE diet would cause autism. In the tww the baby has the nutrients it requires in its eggy state (blastocyst or something I could have made tht up lol) and once you find out you're pregnant you eat normally anyway. My ds2 is autistic and non verbal but his brothers are neurotypical and chatting away. I didnt alter my diet for any of them. I have a friend whose husband is autistic and they have had 3 autistic children. It makes me wonder if its sometimes genetic? I dunno, either way I wouldnt worry about the diet increasing autism risks. Just take your folic acid and baby will have the best chance.

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The study in question, if you actually read it, found a connection between the folic in prenatals and a genetic inability to process folate effectively from foods. That is a large part of why I have the folic acid at a higher than "normal" dose, because not everyone will know if they have this genetic inabiltiy, and am so insistent that all you guys take it before conception. Folic acid/folate is the only nutrient definitively proven to help a baby's health when taken preconception. :)

yes yes everyone always ask about your concerns, I do have to admit sometimes it hurts my feelings (I have gone to great lengths to always put safety first and the dangerous advice that was being given on many sway sites is largely why I started doing this to begin with.) and appreciate everyone's support!! :) But I totally understand asking and am happy to explain.

Thank you Atomic for this info and for creating such a great site! Again I want to say that I NEVER meant to imply that you would ever suggest anything unsafe. I love how much research you have put into everything!

I do want to add one thing about folic acid that I have learned with my MTHFR mutation. IF you have this mutation, you HAVE to take the methyl form of folic acid AND you should cut out all other supplemental forms. Whole food sources are fine. But with this mutation, regular folic acid cannot be processed and the unprocessed amounts build up in the blood******. High blood serum levels of folic acid can damage tissues. So who knows what that could do to a fetus. When I was pregnant with DS1 I was taking lots of regular folic acid AND eating bread that was fortified in folic acid (synthetic, not a whole food source). I must have had a very high blood serum level of folic acid at that time and I know it hurt him. I understand that no one wants to think they did anything or hear mothers blame themselves. And I don't actually blame myself. I did not know. I thought I was doing the right thing. But I know now it could have hurt him. Several months before conceiving DS2 I was tested for the MTHFR mutation and had my folic acid level tested and it was VERY high. It was high because I had way too much built up in my blood ****** because it wasn't being processed. So I stopped my prenatal with regular folic acid, stopped eating any foods fortified with folic acid, and started taking 5-MTHF (the methyl form of folic acid). During the TTC time and throughout the pregnancy I took 3 mg of 5-MTHF at the advice of our naturopath.

Atomic, you mentioned above that you wondered if prenatals and fortified foods could cause autism. I personally think that this is very possible and that it is linked to the MTHFR mutation and mothers having too much unprocessed folic acid in their blood ******. I am not a doctor but this is what my research has turned up. And it's why I really think anyone TTC should have an MTHFR test because it is very common and not something you can know unless you are tested. 98% of people with autism have an MTHFR mutation so it's linked somehow. And if you have it and want to get pregnant, you really want to make sure you are taking the right kind of folic acid or you could be worsening the problem.

And thank you, Atomic, for your thoughts on how long we should postpone. It's hard. I totally understand your point of view. I just can't get away from the fact that so far studies show that a sib born within a year of the last child is 3 times more likely to have autism than one born 3 years after. And one born within 12-23 months 2 times more likely. One theory is that the mother's system is still deficient from the earlier pregnancy and that it takes time to build up the nutrition stores again. It may be that it's related to folic acid levels specifically. Who knows?

One thought I had, though, was to wait 6 more months (I have to anyway because of the C-section - my midwives are very clear on this) and then have my vitamin levels tested and see if I am in good shape then nutrition-wise. If so, I could feel comfortable starting earlier.

I think it really is a hard call. :( I am conflicted about it.

Please don't even worry about it, I always try to keep in mind if I just showed up on a website and some wackadoo was saying this or that I would have a ton of questions. :)

I would LOVE to have everyone take the folate. But the issue I have is that there are OTHER things, just as common, that plain ol' folic acid can prevent and the folate is super expensive, so it becomes a juggling act of what I can recommend that is going to work for the most people which is why I do recommend just plain folic and not the folate form except for people with MTHFR. :) I don't think we're "there yet" in terms of definitive data about what all is happening with this stuff whereas we do know 100% that folic acid prevents neural tube defects.

I do totally agree it's well worth getting tested anyone who has had repeat miscarriages, kiddo with autism or is just curious.

Out of curiosity with DS 1 did you take it all through pregnancy or just the first trimester??

I definitely agree that regular folic acid is better than nothing. And the 5-MTHF is expensive. And DS1 likely got enough folic acid to prevent neural tube issues because I was taking so much (since I wasn't processing it well I needed more to get some of it to him). I just wonder sometimes if he'd have less struggles if I had known about the 5-MTHF and there hadn't been so much unprocessed stuff in my blood. But of course, it doesn't matter now and can't be changed.

I did take folic acid throughout the pregnancy with him so that could've compounded things, meaning the unprocessed stuff was bombarding him the whole time.

I feel really good about what we did with DS2, though. He's still very young but already does many things differently than DS1 did so we are guessing he is NT. And he has no midline defects. Not sure yet about food allergies and such. Only time will tell on that.

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Originally Posted by beingmommy

And thank you, Atomic, for your thoughts on how long we should postpone. It's hard. I totally understand your point of view. I just can't get away from the fact that so far studies show that a sib born within a year of the last child is 3 times more likely to have autism than one born 3 years after. And one born within 12-23 months 2 times more likely. One theory is that the mother's system is still deficient from the earlier pregnancy and that it takes time to build up the nutrition stores again. It may be that it's related to folic acid levels specifically. Who knows?

One thought I had, though, was to wait 6 more months (I have to anyway because of the C-section - my midwives are very clear on this) and then have my vitamin levels tested and see if I am in good shape then nutrition-wise. If so, I could feel comfortable starting earlier.

I think it really is a hard call. :( I am conflicted about it.

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Is this any any situation, or just in cases where you already have a child with autism?
Sorry if this and we has presented itself already, I'd I already missed it.

I'm going to be Ttc ASAP, (reality within 1 yr old ds4). You caught my attention.


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I think the statistics are for anyone BUT it would be much higher for someone who already has a child with autism. I am mainly concerned because DS1 has autism.

Beingmommy, if the only thing holding you back is your midwives, I have to tell you that either they misunderstood the research or are being overly cautious. There are studies which show any pregnancy that happens a couple months after a cesarean have no increase in ruptures (because basically everything is healed by that point that is going to). There was, however, one largish study many years ago which showed a decreased risk after 18 months, which sounds like the study your midwives are relying on. Thing is, it's 18 months from birth to birth (so pregnancy after baby is 9 months), not 18 months from birth to pregnancy. Most caregivers ignore that though & tell you not to get pregnant for 18 months.

Semi-related, if you're planning a VBAC, ICAN is a great group & have links to research on their site, www.ican-online.org plus a FB page & (sadly) nearly defunct Yahoo group.

Sorry for kind of going off topic, I get very frustrated by misinformation on this topic & spent a lot of time correcting it over the years (I was the mod of VBAC board for several years)

I agree Blueyes - I had my 2 eldest boys 23 months apart, both c-sections. I then had my 3rd by VBAC at Xmas. The stats are quite misleading, especially those on rupture, where a minor dehisience is lumped in the same stat as a major life-threatening rupture. A lot of scaremongering goes on in the medical world as it's easier for them to control a planned section. :-)

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Don't get me started on the whole dehesience/window/thin uterus/rupture thing. We'd be here for hours. lol

Oh thanks for this info! I am guessing you are right and they are looking at the highest decreased risk at the 18 month mark. Very interesting.

The C-section thing has definitely been a factor for me in postponing. And the autism risk stuff. Then also just DS2 being so high need right now. He literally will scream unless he is with me. And sleeps terribly and eats a little food but is still mostly BFing. So I don't feel ready to start TTC right away.

But I am feeling better about making the choice be more about when DS2 is in a better place than on these other factors now.

I have heard of ICAN and definitely plan to have a VBAC. DS1 was a perfect natural vaginal birth. very fast. DS2 was breech and we tried every gentle way we could to turn him (acupuncture, hypnosis, chiropractic, positional stuff) but he wouldn't turn. It often felt to me like he would try to turn but couldn't. Finally I was having intense BH and he was still footling breech with excess amniotic fluid and they gave me the choice of doing an ECV. It felt wrong to me. I couldn't explain it but it felt wrong so I declined. We had a C-section and when they got in there they found he had the cord wrapped around his neck up at the end right by the placenta which was right under my ribs. So he couldn't turn. He was stuck and if we HAD tried to turn him manually or tried to going into a breech delivery it could've ended very badly with the cord being ripped out of the placenta.

Mama instinct. :) I'm glad you listened to it. Most of the time, breech birth is as safe as breech cesarean & most of the time, wrapped cords are safe. There's usually some slack. I've never heard of a cord quite that short/tight before! Sounds like you had one of the rare situations cesareans were made for.

You have a very high chance of a VBAC since you have a previous birth & a reason for cesarean that unlikely to repeat.

I learned about those stupid online calculators that tell you your chance of having a successful VBAC after I'd had 2. So I entered all my info in them from before each one....I got around 35% & 50%. So glad I never saw those before giving birth!

Anyway, good to hear your feeling a bit better about things. I hope your ds2 becomes a bit less needy. I've had a couple high needs kids & they've all gone through periods of it. It's rough. Hang in there! :)

Thanks blueeyedguys! It is strange the way he was tangled in the cord. I think it was nice and long but the part wrapped around his neck was up close to the placenta end so he couldn't turn and would not have been able to descend. My DS1 came out with his cord wrapped around his neck too but it was more in the middle or bellybutton end so he still had lots of freedom to turn and move. I think DS2 was stuck nearly the entire pregnancy because he was in that position in our 20 week u/s, we just didn't realize then that the cord had trapped him.

High need kids can be so exhausting. But sweet too. I really want another so I hope it can work for us.

Are you trying for more? I am sorry if you already mentioned it. I have a little mommy brain.

One of mine had a single loose wrap around his neck & a hugely long cord. Another had a true knot, which was interesting. I took a (bad) picture of it.


We're hoping to try once more, but can't until at least Christmas (gee that'll be fun with LE) and I'm already getting weird cycles for peri-menopause, so who knows if I'll be able to get pregnant. All my others have been quick, one shot tries, so I guess we'll see which trend is stronger lol

I'm honeslly fine either way. I just want to know I at least gave having a daughter a shot instead of spending the rest of my life wondering if I could have gotten pregnant & maybe had a girl.

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Originally Posted by beingmommy

I think the statistics are for anyone BUT it would be much higher for someone who already has a child with autism. I am mainly concerned because DS1 has autism.

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That frightens me a little.
Sure is hard being a parent isn't it? Such hard decisions before they are even conceived!


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Originally Posted by blueeyedguys

One of mine had a single loose wrap around his neck & a hugely long cord. Another had a true knot, which was interesting. I took a (bad) picture of it.


We're hoping to try once more, but can't until at least Christmas (gee that'll be fun with LE) and I'm already getting weird cycles for peri-menopause, so who knows if I'll be able to get pregnant. All my others have been quick, one shot tries, so I guess we'll see which trend is stronger lol

I'm honeslly fine either way. I just want to know I at least gave having a daughter a shot instead of spending the rest of my life wondering if I could have gotten pregnant & maybe had a girl.

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How old are you, if you don't mind me asking (and I apologize if you already mentioned... I too have mommy brain)


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I'm 40. I think I mentioned it in the Canadian thread, but not a problem. :)

I started AF young, so ending young wouldn't surprise me. But then, neither would ending older. lol

Hitmebabyonemoretime, I know it is scary but also know that the risks for you are still very small, I think somewhere in the 2% range. It's MUCH more for me but still much more likely we'd have a kid without. For us it's 1 in 5 general risk we will since we already have a kid with autism - but that means and 80% chance we won't - 80%! So for you, even if you closely spaced kids, it would be unlikely. For me, I am just trying to hedge my bets since we already have a much higher risk.

Blueeyedguys, I feel the same way about just wanting to give it a shot. If we don't try again I will always wonder. If we do try again and either not manage to get pregnant OR have another boy I will be fine. It will feel like it was what was meant to be. But if we don't try? I know I will regret not giving us a chance.